Are Tatum and Brown redundant stars ?

[C3LTSF4N]

I don’t think it needs to be overthought.  They’re both very good overall players who need to keep getting better at playmaking and that’ll come with a more complete team, along with growth.  Last year was far from a complete team for obvious reasons (lack of consistency through injuries, roster, health, etc.).

The question here is ‘are they fit as a championship core?’ and imo there’s no question they are. Whether both are on the court or at least one at all times, it’s a weapon to have them on the same team. They’ve proven they can coexist based on personalities and shown they’re mature guys.  I think we’re in good shape.

In a perfect world you give them an elite big with a good playmaker or an elite playmaker with a good big, but unfortunately it seems like that won’t happen until next year.  A lot can happen in a year though as we’ve seen so I wouldn’t be surprised if they surprise.

[RockinRyA]

I don't question the talent or the year-by-year improvement of each player. On the contrary.

My point is the fit with each other and the team as a whole.
And I don't see them as being selfish players either - just would like to see their extraordinary talent work together and not in isolation.

Think how Bird and Max complimented each other so beautifully and from year one together as well. I realize they played different styles,
Max a pure power forward and Bird the perimeter guy with great passing skills. But, that is also my point - those two complimented each other while Tatum and Brown are very similar and not so naturally complimentary.

It will be very interesting to see a new coaching staff work with this team. We definitely needed a new voice.

I think you can definitely have two star players who are similar, it depends on the surrounding role players around them. Curry and Klay (prior to Durant) were aided by the passing of Draymond, Tim Duncan and David Robinson were fed by Avery Johnson, Wade and LeBron were both dominant interior scorers aided by a skilful Bosh and shooting role players, etc etc.

I wouldn't call Curry and Klay similar players though. 

Both are great shooters and high level scorers, sure.  But I would say that's where their similarities pretty much end.  Steph's secondary talents are his ball handling and passing, while Klay's secondary talent is his defence. They each offer something valuable that the other doesn't, have very different physical attributes, and also play totally different positions. 

I wouldn't say Duncan and Robinson were similar either.  Robinson was a physical, athletic freak while Duncan was 100% skill and fundamentals. 

Lebron and Wade were similar that's true, but Wade that's a special scenario because Lebron and Wade when together played different positions and were probably both top 5 players in the NBA.

My concern with Tatum and Brown is that they are extremely similar players.  In fact I would say they are about 80%-85% identical in thier play stiles.

Both guys are above average (but not exceptional) defenders who can guard 3-4 positions.  But are volume shooters who tend to be jumpshot dominant and who dont get to the free throw line at high rates.  Both shoot a lot of threes.  They have almost identical scoring efficiency, almost identical usage rates.  Similar size, similar length.  They are really, really similar players.  Last season that really became true - in prior years the differences between their games was much more signifciant.   

Perhaps partly because they are such similar players (or perhaps more mentality) it felt at times last year like these guys were trying to compete with each other rather then complement each other and I'm not overly fond of that.  I think when you're less lkely to have this issue when you have guys who aren't quite so similar, because then they each have unique talents they can bring to the game that the other doesn't, so the need to one-up each other isn't so strong.

Maybe I'm wrong and they can find a way for it to work ongoingly, I sure hope so.

I feel like you’re more willing to find differences in other players than in Tatum and Brown

definitely agree. Both have skills that mirror each other but both also has different strengths. Brown is more of a spot up as a shooter, and a slasher. Tatum is more of a pullup as a shooter and uses skills more than athleticism to get inside (opposite of brown in that case although both possesses a bit of what the other has).

[Ed Monix]

I feel that the fit could be better but given Brown & Tatum have a positive relationship and seem coachable, I feel they can change their play to a more team friendly style.

My only query is can we find the right third star? I don’t believe it is Bradley Beal or anyone that could be available soon.

The thing that made the 08 Celtics great was their balance. Garnett was the elite defensive star, Pierce was an elite scorer and could create for others and Allen was the elite shooter who could operate off the ball.

[LilRip]

They didn’t used to be similar players. Brown used to be a strong individual defender and an athletic slasher (albeit with a loose handle). Tatum used to be both a spot up shooter and an iso scorer.

However, the growth of their skills and ascension into allstar status  has made them fairly similar. They’re both strong defenders. They both can create shots. They’re both budding playmakers. They’re both really strong in transition. And they’re both deadly spot shooters.

However, they’re not redundant. Great players can play with great players, if they’re really great. I think the term we’re looking for here is “not maximized” but the C’s need all the talent they can get.

Their similarly wide and varied skillsets arent a weakness or something we should be upset about. It’s the coaches that need to better define roles. Like I would love it if Brown would focus on becoming an even better defender and Tatum would focus on becoming an even better playmaker.

[Ogaju]

They didn’t used to be similar players. Brown used to be a strong individual defender and an athletic slasher (albeit with a loose handle). Tatum used to be both a spot up shooter and an iso scorer.

However, the growth of their skills and ascension into allstar status  has made them fairly similar. They’re both strong defenders. They both can create shots. They’re both budding playmakers. They’re both really strong in transition. And they’re both deadly spot shooters.

However, they’re not redundant. Great players can play with great players, if they’re really great. I think the term we’re looking for here is “not maximized” but the C’s need all the talent they can get.

Their similarly wide and varied skillsets arent a weakness or something we should be upset about. It’s the coaches that need to better define roles. Like I would love it if Brown would focus on becoming an even better defender and Tatum would focus on becoming an even better playmaker.

Budding playmakers? Very charitable use of words. They are both great players but they have a weak Pareto point. Putting Tatum with a great PG or big man will be more optimal than Tatum and Brown.

[Jvalin]

Tatum is a PnR ball handler. Attacking the switch after the PnR may seem like an ISO, but it really isn't. Whenever he's defended by a taller opponent on the perimeter, he can blow by him and explode to the basket. Whenever he's defended by a shorter opponent, he can either shoot over him or post him up. We aren't talking about iso anymore. Again, he's attacking the switch. This is smart, fundamental basketball. Please stop criticizing Tatum for taking advantage of mismatches. With all due respect, this is blatant ignorance of how the game is played. Not saying that he never attempts ISOs, but most of the plays you guys complain about are PnR plays.

Tatum and Brown operate very differently on offense. Tatum excels in the half court as a PnR ball handler. Brown excels in the open court. In slow-paced games we use him primarily as an off-ball shooter. In fact, here's how they score their points.

Tatum
PnR ball handler: 27.8%
Iso: 18.6%
Transition: 12.1%
Spot up shooting: 11%
Post up: 8.2%
Handoff: 6.2%
Off screen: 5%
Cut: 3.4%
PnR roll man: 2.1%
Putbacks: 1.8%
Miscellaneous: 3.8%

Brown
Transition: 22.4%
Spot up shooting: 21%
PnR ball handler: 15.2%
Handoff: 9.4%
Off screen: 9.3%
Iso: 7.1%
Cut: 3.8%
Putbacks: 3.8%
Post up 3.6%
PnR roll man: 1.2%
Miscellaneous: 3.1%

Long story short, Brown scores 67.1% of his points either as an off-ball threat or in transition. The respective percentage for Tatum is just 39.8%.

Personally speaking, I'm lower on Brown than most of you guys are. I'm super high on Tatum though. Are they redundant playing next to each other? Of course not! 2-way wings are always useful. If anything, I wish we had more players like them.

[gouki88]

They didn’t used to be similar players. Brown used to be a strong individual defender and an athletic slasher (albeit with a loose handle). Tatum used to be both a spot up shooter and an iso scorer.

However, the growth of their skills and ascension into allstar status  has made them fairly similar. They’re both strong defenders. They both can create shots. They’re both budding playmakers. They’re both really strong in transition. And they’re both deadly spot shooters.

However, they’re not redundant. Great players can play with great players, if they’re really great. I think the term we’re looking for here is “not maximized” but the C’s need all the talent they can get.

Their similarly wide and varied skillsets arent a weakness or something we should be upset about. It’s the coaches that need to better define roles. Like I would love it if Brown would focus on becoming an even better defender and Tatum would focus on becoming an even better playmaker.

Budding playmakers? Very charitable use of words. They are both great players but they have a weak Pareto point. Putting Tatum with a great PG or big man will be more optimal than Tatum and Brown.

How is budding an inappropriate term? For their age and role they're relatively strong passers (Tatum especially)

[Vermont Green]

I don't see any issue with Brown and Tatum, any more than Jordan and Pippen or Wade and LeBron or George and Leonard.  This is only a potential issue depending on who the other key players are.

There has been a lot of talk about adding Beal to Brown and Tatum.  Do that and there does start to be a roster balance issue.  And it is only partly due to skill set, the cap is also an issue.  If all the cap is tied up in Beal, Brown, and Tatum, you won't be able to afford a good enough PG or enough talent at big positions.

As it stands, we are likely to add one more high end player to Brown and Tatum (or at least an upper end player).  High end meaning talent and cost.  That next high end or upper end guy in my mind needs to be a big in order to optimize the roster balance.  I am less concerned about PG.  Or if you are able to bring in a high end PG or another high end scorer like Beal, I would then want to trade Brown for a high end big.

[Rosco917]

Does keeping Jason Tatum and Jaylen Brown together create a redundancy on offense that creates a ceiling for the Celtics ?

I believe it was Max who talked about the Celtics offense consisting of the two all-stars simply taking turns doing essentially the same thing - Going iso and getting a shot or getting to the rim or driving and passing to the 3-point line. This does not encourage player & ball movement, creativity or a team that plays together and becomes much more difficult to defend.

I believe continuing to add these ball-dominant point guards only aggravates the stagnancy in our offense.
This team is very often boring to watch - not a lot of activity and aggressiveness or teamwork on offense or defense.

Would we be better off trading Tatum or Brown for more complimentary players ?
(I know, I know, Tatum is untouchable. But the guy does not make his teammates better).

This^

Plus you can't say ownership never surrounded them with talent. They couldn't succeed with Kyrie, or a healthy Gordon Hayward, (when he finally did return) or a youngish Al Horford. Kyrie didn't enjoy playing with them, not at all. The bench for that 2018-19 season was absolutely loaded. 

Signing Kyrie Irving and a Gordon Hayward doesn't come cheap, perhaps the reason ownership now seems reluctant to invest. They simply want to see if the J's can thrive together, before tossing millions into the ocean again.

I also need to see signs that they can over-achieve as a duo by playing two man basketball together. Rather than taking turns going ISO.

And I agree, both are improving, this should be a telling season.

[johnnygreen]

I feel like the real issue with having Brown and Tatum hasn’t been brought up yet. They both seem more concerned about making the All-Star or All-NBA teams and the individual glory that comes with it, than making everyone around them better. They both have to fight to make those teams, which does not help the Celtics. They’re not established to the point where they’re simply making the All-Star or All-NBA on name recognition alone. Tatum is close to getting there on name recognition, while Brown has a long way to go in that area. And since Brown may see himself close to Tatum in level of play, I think that becomes a problem in holding the Celtics team back.

This mindset also has to do with their basketball IQ. Just because you can score, does not mean you’re a great player. In this area, I think Tatum is slightly above average overall, but does have an elite level in recognizing personal mismatches. However, I think basketball IQ is an area that holds Brown back in my opinion. It takes Brown far too long to process the game, and doesn’t necessarily play on instinct.

[droopdog7]

Not redundant.  The real question is whether they are good enough.

[Diggles]

I think Brown is behind Tatum slightly.     Only thing Brown seems to do a little better is cut to the basket more and cover smaller guards efficiently.   

If Brown can learn to move with out the ball more and develop that catch and shoot we have yourself a future Bradley Beal.   I was hoping the next piece we ad is KG type big man with a jumper.   

I saw keep them and go all in next year....

[keevsnick]

Yes. But that's a good thing because the things those guys duplicate are things you need more than one guy on your team to do at a high level. You cant have too many good perimterd defenders or shooters. Most teams have at least two great perimeters creators.

They need to get better as passers, but thinking to need to trade one because they weren't GREAT passers early afe 24/23 is asinine to me.

[pablohoney]

Parish and McHale were both rebounding, defending low post big men.  No way you could play them together.  Too redundant.

[nickagneta]

Does keeping Jason Tatum and Jaylen Brown together create a redundancy on offense that creates a ceiling for the Celtics ?

I believe it was Max who talked about the Celtics offense consisting of the two all-stars simply taking turns doing essentially the same thing - Going iso and getting a shot or getting to the rim or driving and passing to the 3-point line. This does not encourage player & ball movement, creativity or a team that plays together and becomes much more difficult to defend.

I believe continuing to add these ball-dominant point guards only aggravates the stagnancy in our offense.
This team is very often boring to watch - not a lot of activity and aggressiveness or teamwork on offense or defense.

Would we be better off trading Tatum or Brown for more complimentary players ?
(I know, I know, Tatum is untouchable. But the guy does not make his teammates better).

This^

Plus you can't say ownership never surrounded them with talent. They couldn't succeed with Kyrie, or a healthy Gordon Hayward, (when he finally did return) or a youngish Al Horford. Kyrie didn't enjoy playing with them, not at all. The bench for that 2018-19 season was absolutely loaded. 

Signing Kyrie Irving and a Gordon Hayward doesn't come cheap, perhaps the reason ownership now seems reluctant to invest. They simply want to see if the J's can thrive together, before tossing millions into the ocean again.

I also need to see signs that they can over-achieve as a duo by playing two man basketball together. Rather than taking turns going ISO.

And I agree, both are improving, this should be a telling season.

You have a bunch of this wrong.

Kyrie, Horford and Hayward were brought in as stars and it was Tatum and Brown that surrounded them. Those guys were not brought in to help Tatum and Brown in winning a title. The Jays were the youth trying to learn the game and help those stars win, much like Nesmith and Langford are the young guys surrounding The Jays while trying to learn the game and help the win.