Are Tatum and Brown redundant stars ?

[tenn_smoothie]

Does keeping Jason Tatum and Jaylen Brown together produce a redundancy on offense that creates a ceiling for the Celtics ?

I believe it was Max who talked about the Celtics offense consisting of the two all-stars simply taking turns doing essentially the same thing - Going iso and getting a shot or getting to the rim or driving and passing to the 3-point line. This does not encourage player & ball movement, creativity or a team that plays together and becomes much more difficult to defend.

I believe continuing to add these ball-dominant point guards only aggravates the stagnancy in our offense.
This team is very often boring to watch - not a lot of activity and aggressiveness or teamwork on offense or defense.

Would we be better off trading Tatum or Brown for more complimentary players ?
(I know, I know, Tatum is untouchable. But the guy does not make his teammates better).

[gouki88]

I do not think so. I think our coaching and list management has let them down over the last two seasons. Both have continued to improve alongside one another, Brown is at perennial All-Star level and Tatum is at perennial All-NBA level, neither are 25 yet and they play both ends. I don't think having two 25+ scoring wings on high efficiency is a bad recipe for team-building.

I also disagree about Tatum not making his teammates better. His passing has made significant improvements every year, and for a dominant scoring wing his age it's actually at quite a high level. Better passer than Durant, Kawhi and Butler were at the same age. For dominant scoring wings (when they're young) passing is usually not really developed until they're in their 4th or 5th year, once their body and defence has improved.
JT just made his biggest passing jump between year 3 and 4, and improved in other areas (scoring in general, real improvement in drawing fouls towards the end of the season, marginal rebounding improvement). Nothing to suggest Tatum nor Brown won't improve again.

I also would not underestimate the addition of Al Horford, and what he'll do for them. His high-post passing and ability to open up the floor for them will do wonders, getting them lots of easy buckets.

[PAOBoston]

I think the goal is to get three stars on the roster. If we think Beal is coming at some point, the next logical move to me is to trade JB for a piece that fits JT/Beal. Whether that is someone like Lillard or Towns I don’t know. But I do think JB will be getting traded at some point.

[Roy H.]

I mean, if a team had to choose, it would probably like an All-Star big, an All-Star wing, and an All-Star PG.  But, that's not the only model.  We've got two versatile, skilled stars who can each play two positions.

With the right surrounding cast, Tatum and JB can be champions.

[Jiri Welsch]

No. They aren’t redundant when you have a coach who can run plays that allow them to play off of each other. Last year Brad failed badly at promoting their two man game.

[tenn_smoothie]

I don't question the talent or the year-by-year improvement of each player. On the contrary.

My point is the fit with each other and the team as a whole.
And I don't see them as being selfish players either - just would like to see their extraordinary talent work together and not in isolation.

Think how Bird and Max complimented each other so beautifully and from year one together as well. I realize they played different styles,
Max a pure power forward and Bird the perimeter guy with great passing skills. But, that is also my point - those two complimented each other while Tatum and Brown are very similar and not so naturally complimentary.

It will be very interesting to see a new coaching staff work with this team. We definitely needed a new voice.

[gouki88]

I don't question the talent or the year-by-year improvement of each player. On the contrary.

My point is the fit with each other and the team as a whole.
And I don't see them as being selfish players either - just would like to see their extraordinary talent work together and not in isolation.

Think how Bird and Max complimented each other so beautifully and from year one together as well. I realize they played different styles,
Max a pure power forward and Bird the perimeter guy with great passing skills. But, that is also my point - those two complimented each other while Tatum and Brown are very similar and not so naturally complimentary.

It will be very interesting to see a new coaching staff work with this team. We definitely needed a new voice.

I think you can definitely have two star players who are similar, it depends on the surrounding role players around them. Curry and Klay (prior to Durant) were aided by the passing of Draymond, Tim Duncan and David Robinson were fed by Avery Johnson, Wade and LeBron were both dominant interior scorers aided by a skilful Bosh and shooting role players, etc etc.

[mr. dee]

Pippen and Jordan, Siakam and Kawhi, KD and Klay, Ray and Paul. I don't see any reason why JB and JT couldn't co-exist. Our biggest success is with those two leading the team.

[Who]

Yes, to echo others -- duplication yes, redundancy no.

[Muzzy66]

I don't question the talent or the year-by-year improvement of each player. On the contrary.

My point is the fit with each other and the team as a whole.
And I don't see them as being selfish players either - just would like to see their extraordinary talent work together and not in isolation.

Think how Bird and Max complimented each other so beautifully and from year one together as well. I realize they played different styles,
Max a pure power forward and Bird the perimeter guy with great passing skills. But, that is also my point - those two complimented each other while Tatum and Brown are very similar and not so naturally complimentary.

It will be very interesting to see a new coaching staff work with this team. We definitely needed a new voice.

I think you can definitely have two star players who are similar, it depends on the surrounding role players around them. Curry and Klay (prior to Durant) were aided by the passing of Draymond, Tim Duncan and David Robinson were fed by Avery Johnson, Wade and LeBron were both dominant interior scorers aided by a skilful Bosh and shooting role players, etc etc.

I wouldn't call Curry and Klay similar players though. 

Both are great shooters and high level scorers, sure.  But I would say that's where their similarities pretty much end.  Steph's secondary talents are his ball handling and passing, while Klay's secondary talent is his defence. They each offer something valuable that the other doesn't, have very different physical attributes, and also play totally different positions. 

I wouldn't say Duncan and Robinson were similar either.  Robinson was a physical, athletic freak while Duncan was 100% skill and fundamentals. 

Lebron and Wade were similar that's true, but Wade that's a special scenario because Lebron and Wade when together played different positions and were probably both top 5 players in the NBA.

My concern with Tatum and Brown is that they are extremely similar players.  In fact I would say they are about 80%-85% identical in thier play stiles.

Both guys are above average (but not exceptional) defenders who can guard 3-4 positions.  But are volume shooters who tend to be jumpshot dominant and who dont get to the free throw line at high rates.  Both shoot a lot of threes.  They have almost identical scoring efficiency, almost identical usage rates.  Similar size, similar length.  They are really, really similar players.  Last season that really became true - in prior years the differences between their games was much more signifciant.   

Perhaps partly because they are such similar players (or perhaps more mentality) it felt at times last year like these guys were trying to compete with each other rather then complement each other and I'm not overly fond of that.  I think when you're less lkely to have this issue when you have guys who aren't quite so similar, because then they each have unique talents they can bring to the game that the other doesn't, so the need to one-up each other isn't so strong.

Maybe I'm wrong and they can find a way for it to work ongoingly, I sure hope so. 

[gouki88]

I don't question the talent or the year-by-year improvement of each player. On the contrary.

My point is the fit with each other and the team as a whole.
And I don't see them as being selfish players either - just would like to see their extraordinary talent work together and not in isolation.

Think how Bird and Max complimented each other so beautifully and from year one together as well. I realize they played different styles,
Max a pure power forward and Bird the perimeter guy with great passing skills. But, that is also my point - those two complimented each other while Tatum and Brown are very similar and not so naturally complimentary.

It will be very interesting to see a new coaching staff work with this team. We definitely needed a new voice.

I think you can definitely have two star players who are similar, it depends on the surrounding role players around them. Curry and Klay (prior to Durant) were aided by the passing of Draymond, Tim Duncan and David Robinson were fed by Avery Johnson, Wade and LeBron were both dominant interior scorers aided by a skilful Bosh and shooting role players, etc etc.

I wouldn't call Curry and Klay similar players though. 

Both are great shooters and high level scorers, sure.  But I would say that's where their similarities pretty much end.  Steph's secondary talents are his ball handling and passing, while Klay's secondary talent is his defence. They each offer something valuable that the other doesn't, have very different physical attributes, and also play totally different positions. 

I wouldn't say Duncan and Robinson were similar either.  Robinson was a physical, athletic freak while Duncan was 100% skill and fundamentals. 

Lebron and Wade were similar that's true, but Wade that's a special scenario because Lebron and Wade when together played different positions and were probably both top 5 players in the NBA.

My concern with Tatum and Brown is that they are extremely similar players.  In fact I would say they are about 80%-85% identical in thier play stiles.

Both guys are above average (but not exceptional) defenders who can guard 3-4 positions.  But are volume shooters who tend to be jumpshot dominant and who dont get to the free throw line at high rates.  Both shoot a lot of threes.  They have almost identical scoring efficiency, almost identical usage rates.  Similar size, similar length.  They are really, really similar players.  Last season that really became true - in prior years the differences between their games was much more signifciant.   

Perhaps partly because they are such similar players (or perhaps more mentality) it felt at times last year like these guys were trying to compete with each other rather then complement each other and I'm not overly fond of that.  I think when you're less lkely to have this issue when you have guys who aren't quite so similar, because then they each have unique talents they can bring to the game that the other doesn't, so the need to one-up each other isn't so strong.

Maybe I'm wrong and they can find a way for it to work ongoingly, I sure hope so.

I feel like you’re more willing to find differences in other players than in Tatum and Brown

[Muzzy66]

Pippen and Jordan, Siakam and Kawhi, KD and Klay, Ray and Paul. I don't see any reason why JB and JT couldn't co-exist. Our biggest success is with those two leading the team.

I dont think those scenarios are comparable. 

Jordan and Pippen were todally differetn players. 

Siakam had some similarities to Kawhi but there was a very clear pecking order and Siajam was effectively the "really good role player" while Kawhi was clearly the star. 

KD and Klay could be argued to have had similar games, but they also head 2-3 other all stars (Steph, Draymnod, Cousins) on that roster.  It was basicaly an All-Star team playing against regular NBA teams.  Not close to this scenario. 

Ray and Paul were totally different players and had games that complmented each other, but even still wouldn't have seen anything close to the success they did if they didnt have KG there.  He really held that team together and was arguably the most impactful player on the team. 

The problem here is that the two players are incredibly similar, but also have relatively similar levels of talent and experience, so it isn't totally obvious which is the #1 guy and who's team it should be.  I'm sure each of them believes in their own mind that they are better then the other, hence what seems to be a competitive (rather then complimentary) relationship.  I don't think this was likely ever an issue with Jordan/Pippen, Kawhi/Siakam, Klay/KD.

[Muzzy66]

I don't question the talent or the year-by-year improvement of each player. On the contrary.

My point is the fit with each other and the team as a whole.
And I don't see them as being selfish players either - just would like to see their extraordinary talent work together and not in isolation.

Think how Bird and Max complimented each other so beautifully and from year one together as well. I realize they played different styles,
Max a pure power forward and Bird the perimeter guy with great passing skills. But, that is also my point - those two complimented each other while Tatum and Brown are very similar and not so naturally complimentary.

It will be very interesting to see a new coaching staff work with this team. We definitely needed a new voice.

I think you can definitely have two star players who are similar, it depends on the surrounding role players around them. Curry and Klay (prior to Durant) were aided by the passing of Draymond, Tim Duncan and David Robinson were fed by Avery Johnson, Wade and LeBron were both dominant interior scorers aided by a skilful Bosh and shooting role players, etc etc.

I wouldn't call Curry and Klay similar players though. 

Both are great shooters and high level scorers, sure.  But I would say that's where their similarities pretty much end.  Steph's secondary talents are his ball handling and passing, while Klay's secondary talent is his defence. They each offer something valuable that the other doesn't, have very different physical attributes, and also play totally different positions. 

I wouldn't say Duncan and Robinson were similar either.  Robinson was a physical, athletic freak while Duncan was 100% skill and fundamentals. 

Lebron and Wade were similar that's true, but Wade that's a special scenario because Lebron and Wade when together played different positions and were probably both top 5 players in the NBA.

My concern with Tatum and Brown is that they are extremely similar players.  In fact I would say they are about 80%-85% identical in thier play stiles.

Both guys are above average (but not exceptional) defenders who can guard 3-4 positions.  But are volume shooters who tend to be jumpshot dominant and who dont get to the free throw line at high rates.  Both shoot a lot of threes.  They have almost identical scoring efficiency, almost identical usage rates.  Similar size, similar length.  They are really, really similar players.  Last season that really became true - in prior years the differences between their games was much more signifciant.   

Perhaps partly because they are such similar players (or perhaps more mentality) it felt at times last year like these guys were trying to compete with each other rather then complement each other and I'm not overly fond of that.  I think when you're less lkely to have this issue when you have guys who aren't quite so similar, because then they each have unique talents they can bring to the game that the other doesn't, so the need to one-up each other isn't so strong.

Maybe I'm wrong and they can find a way for it to work ongoingly, I sure hope so.

I feel like you’re more willing to find differences in other players than in Tatum and Brown

Based on what?

Look at Tatum and Brown side by side.

Height, wingspan, weight, age, experience level, on paper stats.  They are extremely similar right across the board.  Can you name me two major differences between Tatum and Brown from a basketball (not personality) perspective? 

I honestly cannot think of two.  A year or two ago I would have highlighted the fact that Brown is more of a slasher, better at getting to the line, and more of a catch and shoot (rather then iso) style player.  But last year he totally changed his game and all of those differnces vanished.  Right now, based on last season, I desperately struggle to think of any clear differences between then two players. Tatum is slightly better at this, Brown is slightly better at that - but for the most part they do the exact same thigns and have the exact same range of skills, just to slightly varying degrees of competence.

Lets compare them.

Tatum is 2" taller and I thjink 1" longer.  Jaylen is +10lbs so a little stronger.  Tatum is a slightly better ball handler and passer right now, Brown is probably a slightly better finisher around the basket and in transiion.  Brown plays a little more of a power game while Tatum is a little more finesse, but again it's hardly day and night.  Both shoot similar percentages from three (39% vs 38%), similar percentages from the field (48% vs 46%).  Same free throw rates (26%), similar assist rates (13.1% vs 10.1%), similar rebound rates (10.4% vs 9.3%), similar usage rate (25.1% vs 23.5%), steal rate (1.7% vs 1.6%) and turnover rate (10.3% vs 11.4%).

The only obvious things that stand out are free throw shooting (84% vs 70%) and and block rate (1.9% vs 1.2%) - both of which are strongly in Tatum's favour. 

How can anybody try to argue that they aren't INCREDIBLY similar players?

Edit: Btw all of the above is based on career averages, not based on last season speciifically

[Quetzalcoatl]

The next question is can we run Beal with them in a Brooklyn Nets model?  Instead of having ball handling guards, we have elite wings.  I am super curious how that team would work assuming we get it

[Ogaju]

Brown needs to go for Celtics to improve their efficiency. They bring the same attributes and improving one will regress or stagnate the other.