Author Topic: Options at backup PF?  (Read 4609 times)

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Re: Options at backup PF?
« Reply #45 on: August 05, 2021, 11:47:25 AM »

Offline michigan adam

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Back Up PF?  Back up for who?  What we need is a starting PF.  We already have enough back ups (Parker, Williams, Kantor) and please don't tell me that Tatum is a PF.  Our need is for a starting caliber PF.  We don't need any more back up PFs.

Tatum is the starting PF. Heís prototypical, modern day power forward. 6í9Ē and he can shoot the 3. Thatís what the position is now.

I also would love to have a "modern PF", but there are few great ones with few holes in their game.  What you would end up with is either a defensive minded one who can't shoot from outside, or a tall outside shooter who is a liability on D, especially laterally.  Not useless, but not better than 3 wings for most of the minutes.

Well, agree to disagree.  Tatum is a starter but he is not a power forward.  He is a wing, one of the best wings in the entire NBA.  We are forced to play one of the best wings in the NBA in the PF slot because we don't have an actual starting quality PF to play the PF slot.  And he isn't 6'-9", he is listed at 6'-8", not that this is all that important.

Do people really think that we would play Tatum at PF if we actually had a starting PF to play PF?  Most of last year, we started Daniel Theis at PF and he barely at best has starting level talent.  I wouldn't (play Tatum at PF).  I would prefer to never play Tatum at PF, to always play him at wing.

So if we play say Smart, Richardson, Brown, Tatum, and Horford, is Tatum playing PF?  Why not Brown?  Why not Smart?  The answer is that we are playing without a PF.  We are playing a PG, 3 wings, and a Big.  Nothing wrong with that in certain situations but we would not play that as our core unit if we had a legit starting PF to put out there.

What many disagree with is the "compliment" of players on the court.  In the past few years, the C's have played a PG, 3 wings, and a big.  Of that Tatum is the largest wing.  Call that a PF if you must, but what the C's are trying to do in the past is pretty common in the league unless you have an AD, KAT, KD, etc where you have such talent in the 2nd big spot to not hurt yourself on either D or O with a big player who can guard inside and out and shoot inside and out.  There are few of those players currently.

Only when we had no option.  Last season our starters were Theis and Thompson until we traded Theis.  Before that, we played with Horford and Morris a lot (Morris is more of a swing which is fine).  We default to the 3 wing line up when we need to.

I have no problem with any of these line ups; 2 bigs, 1 big/1 swing, 1 big depending on the situation but people seem to gloss over the fact that we do not have a starting caliber PF or second big or more wing-like big or whatever modern term you want to use and the team would be better for it if we did.

I would love to get a true PF.  You expect that to mean a mobile player that can shoot but whose natural position or role is a big.  I would also be fine with a true swing type player; a hybrid wing/big but more of a natural big than wing.  Tatum is neither of these things.

Tatum is a natural wing, one of the best in the league.  He is not a big, or even a modern big.  Statements by Stevens and even by Ainge earlier indicate to me that they feel this way too.  No roster is perfect.  Every roster has some hole.  Our current hole is a true staring PF.

Just to add, the last 5 years, this is who we started as bigs:

2016-17    Amir Johnson / Horford
2017-18    Horford / Baynes (mostly), Morris (some)
2018-19    Horford / Morris (mostly), Baynes (some)
2019-20    Theis  / 3-wings (primary line up 1 big)
2020-21    Thompson / Theis (until we traded Theis)

So that is about 1.5 seasons with 1 big line ups and 3.5 seasons with 2 big.

Re: Options at backup PF?
« Reply #46 on: August 05, 2021, 11:47:51 AM »

Offline Goldstar88

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My issue with the way the team is built right now is you are putting A TON of pressure on Tatum and Brown to defend larger wing/power forward offensive weapons. Guys like Butler, Siakam, Middleton, Harris, Lebron, Randle, Zion ect ect ect. That's a tough ask given that they will also have to carry an immense offensive load. So sure, you can have Tatum play PF ( although it will be Brown mostly defending PF), but that's not the best way of building your team. Ideally you have another 6'8 wing forward to guard bigger guys (at least during the regular season). Instead we have a bunch of 6'4 to 6'6 2/3 guys in Langford, Richardson, Nesmith meaning Brown and Tatum become your forwards. It makes your team small and srresses your stars.

Thatís why they should have brought Semi back. He can guard the 2,3,4 spots. Milwaukee was  smart to pick him up. Instead we have Grant who is too slow to guard 2,3 and most 4ís and to short to guard the 5.

Re: Options at backup PF?
« Reply #47 on: August 05, 2021, 09:02:35 PM »

Offline gouki88

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My issue with the way the team is built right now is you are putting A TON of pressure on Tatum and Brown to defend larger wing/power forward offensive weapons. Guys like Butler, Siakam, Middleton, Harris, Lebron, Randle, Zion ect ect ect. That's a tough ask given that they will also have to carry an immense offensive load. So sure, you can have Tatum play PF ( although it will be Brown mostly defending PF), but that's not the best way of building your team. Ideally you have another 6'8 wing forward to guard bigger guys (at least during the regular season). Instead we have a bunch of 6'4 to 6'6 2/3 guys in Langford, Richardson, Nesmith meaning Brown and Tatum become your forwards. It makes your team small and srresses your stars.

Thatís why they should have brought Semi back. He can guard the 2,3,4 spots. Milwaukee was  smart to pick him up. Instead we have Grant who is too slow to guard 2,3 and most 4ís and to short to guard the 5.
Semi simply cannot guard any 2s and 3s, and his team defence is much much worse than Grant's. Much better 1v1 defender because of his lateral quickness, but his understanding of defensive concepts was never good.
2021 Minnesota Timberwolves:
PG: Trae Young / Jamal Murray / Jordan Clarkson
SG: Bradley Beal / Terry Rozier
SF: Bogdan Bogdanovic / Will Barton / Saddiq Bey
PF: Harrison Barnes / Aaron Gordon
C: Joel Embiid / John Collins / Mason Plumlee

Re: Options at backup PF?
« Reply #48 on: August 05, 2021, 09:11:43 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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My issue with the way the team is built right now is you are putting A TON of pressure on Tatum and Brown to defend larger wing/power forward offensive weapons. Guys like Butler, Siakam, Middleton, Harris, Lebron, Randle, Zion ect ect ect. That's a tough ask given that they will also have to carry an immense offensive load. So sure, you can have Tatum play PF ( although it will be Brown mostly defending PF), but that's not the best way of building your team. Ideally you have another 6'8 wing forward to guard bigger guys (at least during the regular season). Instead we have a bunch of 6'4 to 6'6 2/3 guys in Langford, Richardson, Nesmith meaning Brown and Tatum become your forwards. It makes your team small and srresses your stars.

Thatís why they should have brought Semi back. He can guard the 2,3,4 spots. Milwaukee was  smart to pick him up. Instead we have Grant who is too slow to guard 2,3 and most 4ís and to short to guard the 5.
Semi simply cannot guard any 2s and 3s, and his team defence is much much worse than Grant's. Much better 1v1 defender because of his lateral quickness, but his understanding of defensive concepts was never good.

Semi can guard 2ís and 3ís because of his literal quickness and athleticism.

Re: Options at backup PF?
« Reply #49 on: August 05, 2021, 09:14:43 PM »

Offline gouki88

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My issue with the way the team is built right now is you are putting A TON of pressure on Tatum and Brown to defend larger wing/power forward offensive weapons. Guys like Butler, Siakam, Middleton, Harris, Lebron, Randle, Zion ect ect ect. That's a tough ask given that they will also have to carry an immense offensive load. So sure, you can have Tatum play PF ( although it will be Brown mostly defending PF), but that's not the best way of building your team. Ideally you have another 6'8 wing forward to guard bigger guys (at least during the regular season). Instead we have a bunch of 6'4 to 6'6 2/3 guys in Langford, Richardson, Nesmith meaning Brown and Tatum become your forwards. It makes your team small and srresses your stars.

Thatís why they should have brought Semi back. He can guard the 2,3,4 spots. Milwaukee was  smart to pick him up. Instead we have Grant who is too slow to guard 2,3 and most 4ís and to short to guard the 5.
Semi simply cannot guard any 2s and 3s, and his team defence is much much worse than Grant's. Much better 1v1 defender because of his lateral quickness, but his understanding of defensive concepts was never good.

Semi can guard 2ís and 3ís because of his literal quickness and athleticism.
What 2s did he ever guard successfully?
2021 Minnesota Timberwolves:
PG: Trae Young / Jamal Murray / Jordan Clarkson
SG: Bradley Beal / Terry Rozier
SF: Bogdan Bogdanovic / Will Barton / Saddiq Bey
PF: Harrison Barnes / Aaron Gordon
C: Joel Embiid / John Collins / Mason Plumlee

Re: Options at backup PF?
« Reply #50 on: August 05, 2021, 10:43:02 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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My issue with the way the team is built right now is you are putting A TON of pressure on Tatum and Brown to defend larger wing/power forward offensive weapons. Guys like Butler, Siakam, Middleton, Harris, Lebron, Randle, Zion ect ect ect. That's a tough ask given that they will also have to carry an immense offensive load. So sure, you can have Tatum play PF ( although it will be Brown mostly defending PF), but that's not the best way of building your team. Ideally you have another 6'8 wing forward to guard bigger guys (at least during the regular season). Instead we have a bunch of 6'4 to 6'6 2/3 guys in Langford, Richardson, Nesmith meaning Brown and Tatum become your forwards. It makes your team small and srresses your stars.

Thatís why they should have brought Semi back. He can guard the 2,3,4 spots. Milwaukee was  smart to pick him up. Instead we have Grant who is too slow to guard 2,3 and most 4ís and to short to guard the 5.
Semi simply cannot guard any 2s and 3s, and his team defence is much much worse than Grant's. Much better 1v1 defender because of his lateral quickness, but his understanding of defensive concepts was never good.

Semi can guard 2ís and 3ís because of his literal quickness and athleticism.
What 2s did he ever guard successfully?

Just watch some of his defensive videos. Hereís a few:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N4aSi_Gznxw

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JMgj58FEvxY


ďIf you look at any of the numbers of just watch, itís pretty clear that heís our best guy guarding Giannis.Ē-Brad Stevens  https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G5dijuGHby8

Heís clearly a much better defender than Grant. Itís not even close.

Re: Options at backup PF?
« Reply #51 on: August 05, 2021, 10:48:18 PM »

Offline gouki88

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My issue with the way the team is built right now is you are putting A TON of pressure on Tatum and Brown to defend larger wing/power forward offensive weapons. Guys like Butler, Siakam, Middleton, Harris, Lebron, Randle, Zion ect ect ect. That's a tough ask given that they will also have to carry an immense offensive load. So sure, you can have Tatum play PF ( although it will be Brown mostly defending PF), but that's not the best way of building your team. Ideally you have another 6'8 wing forward to guard bigger guys (at least during the regular season). Instead we have a bunch of 6'4 to 6'6 2/3 guys in Langford, Richardson, Nesmith meaning Brown and Tatum become your forwards. It makes your team small and srresses your stars.

Thatís why they should have brought Semi back. He can guard the 2,3,4 spots. Milwaukee was  smart to pick him up. Instead we have Grant who is too slow to guard 2,3 and most 4ís and to short to guard the 5.
Semi simply cannot guard any 2s and 3s, and his team defence is much much worse than Grant's. Much better 1v1 defender because of his lateral quickness, but his understanding of defensive concepts was never good.

Semi can guard 2ís and 3ís because of his literal quickness and athleticism.
What 2s did he ever guard successfully?

Just watch some of his defensive videos. Hereís a few:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N4aSi_Gznxw

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JMgj58FEvxY


ďIf you look at any of the numbers of just watch, itís pretty clear that heís our best guy guarding Giannis.Ē-Brad Stevens  https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G5dijuGHby8
Barely any evidence of him defending guards, and a lot of his defensive film on guards is him being beaten on the perimeter but using his physicality. Most of his good defence is in the post.

There's a reason why his defensive metrics are weak despite mostly playing on good defensive teams in Boston. Because his team defence sucks. Grant's rookie defence was better than anything Semi ever produced for our team
2021 Minnesota Timberwolves:
PG: Trae Young / Jamal Murray / Jordan Clarkson
SG: Bradley Beal / Terry Rozier
SF: Bogdan Bogdanovic / Will Barton / Saddiq Bey
PF: Harrison Barnes / Aaron Gordon
C: Joel Embiid / John Collins / Mason Plumlee

Re: Options at backup PF?
« Reply #52 on: August 05, 2021, 11:31:05 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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My issue with the way the team is built right now is you are putting A TON of pressure on Tatum and Brown to defend larger wing/power forward offensive weapons. Guys like Butler, Siakam, Middleton, Harris, Lebron, Randle, Zion ect ect ect. That's a tough ask given that they will also have to carry an immense offensive load. So sure, you can have Tatum play PF ( although it will be Brown mostly defending PF), but that's not the best way of building your team. Ideally you have another 6'8 wing forward to guard bigger guys (at least during the regular season). Instead we have a bunch of 6'4 to 6'6 2/3 guys in Langford, Richardson, Nesmith meaning Brown and Tatum become your forwards. It makes your team small and srresses your stars.

Thatís why they should have brought Semi back. He can guard the 2,3,4 spots. Milwaukee was  smart to pick him up. Instead we have Grant who is too slow to guard 2,3 and most 4ís and to short to guard the 5.
Semi simply cannot guard any 2s and 3s, and his team defence is much much worse than Grant's. Much better 1v1 defender because of his lateral quickness, but his understanding of defensive concepts was never good.

Semi can guard 2ís and 3ís because of his literal quickness and athleticism.
What 2s did he ever guard successfully?

Just watch some of his defensive videos. Hereís a few:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N4aSi_Gznxw

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JMgj58FEvxY


ďIf you look at any of the numbers of just watch, itís pretty clear that heís our best guy guarding Giannis.Ē-Brad Stevens  https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G5dijuGHby8
Barely any evidence of him defending guards, and a lot of his defensive film on guards is him being beaten on the perimeter but using his physicality. Most of his good defence is in the post.

There's a reason why his defensive metrics are weak despite mostly playing on good defensive teams in Boston. Because his team defence sucks. Grant's rookie defence was better than anything Semi ever produced for our team

Well, you might think Semi sucks, but the NBA champs just signed him to a contract. I think that says enough..

Re: Options at backup PF?
« Reply #53 on: August 05, 2021, 11:32:22 PM »

Offline gouki88

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My issue with the way the team is built right now is you are putting A TON of pressure on Tatum and Brown to defend larger wing/power forward offensive weapons. Guys like Butler, Siakam, Middleton, Harris, Lebron, Randle, Zion ect ect ect. That's a tough ask given that they will also have to carry an immense offensive load. So sure, you can have Tatum play PF ( although it will be Brown mostly defending PF), but that's not the best way of building your team. Ideally you have another 6'8 wing forward to guard bigger guys (at least during the regular season). Instead we have a bunch of 6'4 to 6'6 2/3 guys in Langford, Richardson, Nesmith meaning Brown and Tatum become your forwards. It makes your team small and srresses your stars.

Thatís why they should have brought Semi back. He can guard the 2,3,4 spots. Milwaukee was  smart to pick him up. Instead we have Grant who is too slow to guard 2,3 and most 4ís and to short to guard the 5.
Semi simply cannot guard any 2s and 3s, and his team defence is much much worse than Grant's. Much better 1v1 defender because of his lateral quickness, but his understanding of defensive concepts was never good.

Semi can guard 2ís and 3ís because of his literal quickness and athleticism.
What 2s did he ever guard successfully?

Just watch some of his defensive videos. Hereís a few:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N4aSi_Gznxw

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JMgj58FEvxY


ďIf you look at any of the numbers of just watch, itís pretty clear that heís our best guy guarding Giannis.Ē-Brad Stevens  https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G5dijuGHby8
Barely any evidence of him defending guards, and a lot of his defensive film on guards is him being beaten on the perimeter but using his physicality. Most of his good defence is in the post.

There's a reason why his defensive metrics are weak despite mostly playing on good defensive teams in Boston. Because his team defence sucks. Grant's rookie defence was better than anything Semi ever produced for our team

Well, you might think Semi sucks, but the NBA champs just signed him to a contract. I think that says enough..
Lol. Fallacious argument indeed
2021 Minnesota Timberwolves:
PG: Trae Young / Jamal Murray / Jordan Clarkson
SG: Bradley Beal / Terry Rozier
SF: Bogdan Bogdanovic / Will Barton / Saddiq Bey
PF: Harrison Barnes / Aaron Gordon
C: Joel Embiid / John Collins / Mason Plumlee

Re: Options at backup PF?
« Reply #54 on: August 06, 2021, 09:16:22 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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I remember playing in pick up games and picking the guys who I hated to guard me, not always because they were good, they were generally reckless guys who thought they were way better than what they were, and were dangerous.    I think this is what the Bucks just did, they signed a guy Giannis hated playing against, off the chessboard.

Re: Options at backup PF?
« Reply #55 on: August 07, 2021, 01:08:53 AM »

Offline Boss_Dick

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If coach Ime Udouka and his coaching staff can develop and convert Bruno Fernando to play Power Forward, that would be a huge for Celtics future.

Re: Options at backup PF?
« Reply #56 on: August 07, 2021, 02:27:24 AM »

Offline RockinRyA

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My issue with the way the team is built right now is you are putting A TON of pressure on Tatum and Brown to defend larger wing/power forward offensive weapons. Guys like Butler, Siakam, Middleton, Harris, Lebron, Randle, Zion ect ect ect. That's a tough ask given that they will also have to carry an immense offensive load. So sure, you can have Tatum play PF ( although it will be Brown mostly defending PF), but that's not the best way of building your team. Ideally you have another 6'8 wing forward to guard bigger guys (at least during the regular season). Instead we have a bunch of 6'4 to 6'6 2/3 guys in Langford, Richardson, Nesmith meaning Brown and Tatum become your forwards. It makes your team small and srresses your stars.

Thatís why they should have brought Semi back. He can guard the 2,3,4 spots. Milwaukee was  smart to pick him up. Instead we have Grant who is too slow to guard 2,3 and most 4ís and to short to guard the 5.
Semi simply cannot guard any 2s and 3s, and his team defence is much much worse than Grant's. Much better 1v1 defender because of his lateral quickness, but his understanding of defensive concepts was never good.

Semi can guard 2ís and 3ís because of his literal quickness and athleticism.
What 2s did he ever guard successfully?

Just watch some of his defensive videos. Hereís a few:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N4aSi_Gznxw

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JMgj58FEvxY


ďIf you look at any of the numbers of just watch, itís pretty clear that heís our best guy guarding Giannis.Ē-Brad Stevens  https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G5dijuGHby8
Barely any evidence of him defending guards, and a lot of his defensive film on guards is him being beaten on the perimeter but using his physicality. Most of his good defence is in the post.

There's a reason why his defensive metrics are weak despite mostly playing on good defensive teams in Boston. Because his team defence sucks. Grant's rookie defence was better than anything Semi ever produced for our team

Well, you might think Semi sucks, but the NBA champs just signed him to a contract. I think that says enough..

Semi's team defense has been mediocre at best even this year which was his best imho