Author Topic: NBA Playoffs 2021  (Read 126337 times)

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Re: NBA Playoffs 2021
« Reply #2055 on: June 17, 2021, 09:35:42 AM »

Offline Donoghus

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You can’t win in the postseason if your number one option on offense is a 6’1” guard... Clippers just have too much size and depth. I like Mitchell, but he has to be your #2.

Also, got to give credit to Paul George.... 37pts and 16 Reb in 40 Mins. [dang]...

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One example from 30+ years ago? NBA is a little different now...
Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili in '07 and '14 say hello.
Pretty sure those teams had two all time greats in Tim Duncan and Kawhi Leonard. Also, Manu Ginobli is 6’6”, Tony Parker is 6’3”.
I'm pretty sure Kawhi wasn't an all-time great while Duncan wasn't the MVP he was in '14. Mitchell is also 6'3.

Well, Kawhi was the Finals MVP that year so he wasn't exactly slouching either.


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Re: NBA Playoffs 2021
« Reply #2056 on: June 17, 2021, 09:36:33 AM »

Offline Moranis

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You can’t win in the postseason if your number one option on offense is a 6’1” guard... Clippers just have too much size and depth. I like Mitchell, but he has to be your #2.

Also, got to give credit to Paul George.... 37pts and 16 Reb in 40 Mins. [dang]...

Isiah Thomas says hi.
One example from 30+ years ago? NBA is a little different now...
Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili in '07 and '14 say hello.
Not that this is really that important, but Ginobili is 6'6".
Lol well Parker still qualifies.
In 07 though Duncan was the Spurs leading scorer.  Parker took fractionally more shots, but that team ran through Duncan.  By 14, Parker was the lead scorer for them, though Duncan wasn't that far off as a #2 and they did still run most everything through Duncan.

In 16, Irving actually took more shots than James in the playoffs (and did so playing less minutes than James).  Irving isn't much bigger than 6'1".  Obviously that whole offense was centered around James, but technically Irving took more shots so could be considered the #1 scoring option.

In general though the larger point about small players leading championship runs is pretty sound.  The more physical nature of the playoffs wears on the smaller guys more and they are generally less successful.  And frankly, if you look at the champions where the unquestioned best player was shorter than Jordan, you really only have the 15 Warriors, the 89 and 90 Pistons, the 79 Sonics, and the 72 Lakers.  You could make an argument for the 14 Spurs, the 06 Heat, and the 04 Pistons (the small guy wasn't the unquestioned best or most important player on those teams).  That's basically it.  Heck until basically the Warriors started their run, a PG making the all star team and being on one of the two Finals teams, happened like 5 times between Curry and Thomas (basically just Payton, Kidd, Stockton, and Parker - and not all seasons they made it from the latter two - Magic as well, but he is big so not exactly the same thing).  The last couple of years that has gone back to the old times of the PG on the two Finals teams not also being an all star though Irving, Conley, and Paul are all still alive this year.
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Re: NBA Playoffs 2021
« Reply #2057 on: June 17, 2021, 11:54:11 AM »

Offline Somebody

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You can’t win in the postseason if your number one option on offense is a 6’1” guard... Clippers just have too much size and depth. I like Mitchell, but he has to be your #2.

Also, got to give credit to Paul George.... 37pts and 16 Reb in 40 Mins. [dang]...

Isiah Thomas says hi.
One example from 30+ years ago? NBA is a little different now...
Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili in '07 and '14 say hello.
Not that this is really that important, but Ginobili is 6'6".
Lol well Parker still qualifies.
In 07 though Duncan was the Spurs leading scorer.  Parker took fractionally more shots, but that team ran through Duncan.  By 14, Parker was the lead scorer for them, though Duncan wasn't that far off as a #2 and they did still run most everything through Duncan.

In 16, Irving actually took more shots than James in the playoffs (and did so playing less minutes than James).  Irving isn't much bigger than 6'1".  Obviously that whole offense was centered around James, but technically Irving took more shots so could be considered the #1 scoring option.

In general though the larger point about small players leading championship runs is pretty sound.  The more physical nature of the playoffs wears on the smaller guys more and they are generally less successful.  And frankly, if you look at the champions where the unquestioned best player was shorter than Jordan, you really only have the 15 Warriors, the 89 and 90 Pistons, the 79 Sonics, and the 72 Lakers.  You could make an argument for the 14 Spurs, the 06 Heat, and the 04 Pistons (the small guy wasn't the unquestioned best or most important player on those teams).  That's basically it.  Heck until basically the Warriors started their run, a PG making the all star team and being on one of the two Finals teams, happened like 5 times between Curry and Thomas (basically just Payton, Kidd, Stockton, and Parker - and not all seasons they made it from the latter two - Magic as well, but he is big so not exactly the same thing).  The last couple of years that has gone back to the old times of the PG on the two Finals teams not also being an all star though Irving, Conley, and Paul are all still alive this year.
The '07 Spurs were rapidly moving away from Duncan-ball: Parker taking more shots would suggest that he was the guy the Spurs leaned on the most when you consider that he took on ballhandling duties and was responsible for creating shots for teammates that don't necessarily show up in the box score, even more so for '14. Obviously '07 Duncan was by far the best player on that team because of his incredible defence and was on Parker's level in '14 because of it as well, but the Spurs didn't run their offence through him in those years.
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Re: NBA Playoffs 2021
« Reply #2058 on: June 17, 2021, 11:56:41 AM »

Offline Somebody

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You can’t win in the postseason if your number one option on offense is a 6’1” guard... Clippers just have too much size and depth. I like Mitchell, but he has to be your #2.

Also, got to give credit to Paul George.... 37pts and 16 Reb in 40 Mins. [dang]...

Isiah Thomas says hi.
One example from 30+ years ago? NBA is a little different now...
Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili in '07 and '14 say hello.
Pretty sure those teams had two all time greats in Tim Duncan and Kawhi Leonard. Also, Manu Ginobli is 6’6”, Tony Parker is 6’3”.
I'm pretty sure Kawhi wasn't an all-time great while Duncan wasn't the MVP he was in '14. Mitchell is also 6'3.
Well, Kawhi was the Finals MVP that year so he wasn't exactly slouching either.
He also didn't drive the offence like Parker was doing on that Spurs team.
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Re: NBA Playoffs 2021
« Reply #2059 on: June 17, 2021, 03:38:22 PM »

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I must say, I love seeing all the Ben Simmons slander everywhere. Dude is a hack that obviously doesn't care about improving his game. Simmons is basically the same player he was in high school on offense.
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PF: Cliff Robinson / Maurice Lucas / Robert Horry
C: Moses Malone / Mehmet Okur / Truck Robinson

Re: NBA Playoffs 2021
« Reply #2060 on: June 17, 2021, 03:42:24 PM »

Online liam

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I must say, I love seeing all the Ben Simmons slander everywhere. Dude is a hack that obviously doesn't care about improving his game. Simmons is basically the same player he was in high school on offense.

If I have to read another article about how Simmons does so much he doesn't have to shoot, I'm going to puke. Every year Simmons is dead weight in the playoffs.

Re: NBA Playoffs 2021
« Reply #2061 on: June 17, 2021, 03:43:32 PM »

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I must say, I love seeing all the Ben Simmons slander everywhere. Dude is a hack that obviously doesn't care about improving his game. Simmons is basically the same player he was in high school on offense.
It is amazing how little he has developed his game.

What a waste.

Side question: Are there any other players in History that folks can think about that had as much talent as Ben Simmons but completely failed to develop their game?

Re: NBA Playoffs 2021
« Reply #2062 on: June 17, 2021, 03:44:22 PM »

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I must say, I love seeing all the Ben Simmons slander everywhere. Dude is a hack that obviously doesn't care about improving his game. Simmons is basically the same player he was in high school on offense.

let me me see..hours in the gym vs time with the Jenner girl? Yeah. ...that is an easy decision for any sane 2oish year old. Especially when you are already paid.

Re: NBA Playoffs 2021
« Reply #2063 on: June 17, 2021, 03:45:31 PM »

Offline DefenseWinsChamps

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I must say, I love seeing all the Ben Simmons slander everywhere. Dude is a hack that obviously doesn't care about improving his game. Simmons is basically the same player he was in high school on offense.

Ben Simmons and Seth Curry are the only two players on the Sixers I like. I think Simmons gets a bad rap. His game definitely has deficiencies, but he has also never been in a good situation for his personal success. He's been the primary player that has had to sacrifice to make that team work.

He's become, in my opinion, the best defensive wing or guard in the NBA, and he's a very versatile good defender inside. On top of that, he still makes elite reads as a passer and, surrounded by shooters, he would quickly become a monster driver.

There's no doubt to me that the Sixers would never trade him, but he's definitely a player that I think would have more personal and team success in a different situation. Imagine if he played a Draymond Green role instead of trying to be a number 2 option?

Re: NBA Playoffs 2021
« Reply #2064 on: June 17, 2021, 03:49:58 PM »

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I must say, I love seeing all the Ben Simmons slander everywhere. Dude is a hack that obviously doesn't care about improving his game. Simmons is basically the same player he was in high school on offense.
It is amazing how little he has developed his game.

What a waste.

Side question: Are there any other players in History that folks can think about that had as much talent as Ben Simmons but completely failed to develop their game?
Honestly it's hard to think of anyone like Simmons. It seems like he just coasted on his talent and athletic ability, never bothering to hone his skills. I can't help but think he has bad work ethic/attitude problems.
2020 Celticsstrong No-Top 10 Histrorical Draft:
PG: Tim Hardaway Sr. / Jrue Holiday / Sam Cassell
SG: Joe Dumars / Danny Ainge / Šarūnas Marčiulionis
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PF: Cliff Robinson / Maurice Lucas / Robert Horry
C: Moses Malone / Mehmet Okur / Truck Robinson

Re: NBA Playoffs 2021
« Reply #2065 on: June 17, 2021, 03:52:56 PM »

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I must say, I love seeing all the Ben Simmons slander everywhere. Dude is a hack that obviously doesn't care about improving his game. Simmons is basically the same player he was in high school on offense.

Ben Simmons and Seth Curry are the only two players on the Sixers I like. I think Simmons gets a bad rap. His game definitely has deficiencies, but he has also never been in a good situation for his personal success. He's been the primary player that has had to sacrifice to make that team work.

He's become, in my opinion, the best defensive wing or guard in the NBA, and he's a very versatile good defender inside. On top of that, he still makes elite reads as a passer and, surrounded by shooters, he would quickly become a monster driver.

There's no doubt to me that the Sixers would never trade him, but he's definitely a player that I think would have more personal and team success in a different situation. Imagine if he played a Draymond Green role instead of trying to be a number 2 option?
How can you call someone the best of anything when he's unplayable in playoff games? I cannot stress this enough, he is literally scared to hold the ball for a significant amount of time in the half court due to being petrified of free throws. He's just a good passer and defender, and that certainly doesn't make up for being such an awful offensive player.
2020 Celticsstrong No-Top 10 Histrorical Draft:
PG: Tim Hardaway Sr. / Jrue Holiday / Sam Cassell
SG: Joe Dumars / Danny Ainge / Šarūnas Marčiulionis
SF: Alex English / Jamaal Wilkes / Bruce Bowen
PF: Cliff Robinson / Maurice Lucas / Robert Horry
C: Moses Malone / Mehmet Okur / Truck Robinson

Re: NBA Playoffs 2021
« Reply #2066 on: June 17, 2021, 04:04:36 PM »

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I must say, I love seeing all the Ben Simmons slander everywhere. Dude is a hack that obviously doesn't care about improving his game. Simmons is basically the same player he was in high school on offense.
It is amazing how little he has developed his game.

What a waste.

Side question: Are there any other players in History that folks can think about that had as much talent as Ben Simmons but completely failed to develop their game?
Honestly it's hard to think of anyone like Simmons. It seems like he just coasted on his talent and athletic ability, never bothering to hone his skills. I can't help but think he has bad work ethic/attitude problems.
I know, right, it is really hard to think of anyone like Ben Simmons. Maybe Sidney Wicks way back in the 70s who his best year as a rookie and then declined year after year. But not even that is similar and, even with that, Wicks was not as gifted as Ben Simmons is.

I haven't heard anything of Ben Simmons' practice habits in recent times but I remember his first two years in the league people were highly complimentary / praising of his time in the gym. They felt it was more of a mental block during games. That he was putting the time in and working on it but scared to try it in games.

I remember Pippen talking about how he went through the same thing in Chicago as a young player and had to force himself through it. He forced himself to take 1 jump-shot a game no matter what. And he worked his way through that mental block. And then finishing up by saying that this is what Ben Simmons has to do. He has to force himself to take those shots whether they go in or not. That Simmons cannot overcome that mental blockage any other way. Practice alone won't do it. Waiting until you can make 40-50% of your 3s won't work. He has to force himself to take some of those 3s and learn to live with misses / failures while he develops and improves.

Tracy McGrady talked about Simmons' practice habits as well and also spoke highly of them.

Re: NBA Playoffs 2021
« Reply #2067 on: June 17, 2021, 04:11:12 PM »

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Alvan Adams another guy who had his best year as a rookie and then (roughly speaking) maintained his performance steadily throughout his career without major growth. He did not have as much physical gifts as Simmons but he was a plus athlete in his own right.

Interesting parallel between the two -- neither were scorers. Neither guy was comfortable being a shot-creator. Both players were facilitators. They wanted to share the ball and play team basketball. Not be an individual shot-creator.

Alvan Adams was an undersized center who played in the high post which is actually the role I see Ben Simmons as best suited for. Either as the undersized center or as an interior four next to a stretch five where Simmons is the only interior big. Where Simmons is used as a facilitator of halfcourt offense rather than the creator of the halfcourt offense. And an opportunistic scorer / post threat. Adams had a very good 15-18 foot jump-shot to go along with his passing.

Re: NBA Playoffs 2021
« Reply #2068 on: June 17, 2021, 04:48:57 PM »

Online liam

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Alvan Adams another guy who had his best year as a rookie and then (roughly speaking) maintained his performance steadily throughout his career without major growth. He did not have as much physical gifts as Simmons but he was a plus athlete in his own right.

Interesting parallel between the two -- neither were scorers. Neither guy was comfortable being a shot-creator. Both players were facilitators. They wanted to share the ball and play team basketball. Not be an individual shot-creator.

Alvan Adams was an undersized center who played in the high post which is actually the role I see Ben Simmons as best suited for. Either as the undersized center or as an interior four next to a stretch five where Simmons is the only interior big. Where Simmons is used as a facilitator of halfcourt offense rather than the creator of the halfcourt offense. And an opportunistic scorer / post threat. Adams had a very good 15-18 foot jump-shot to go along with his passing.

Simmons needs a little 10-12 footer and a decent free throw %.

Re: NBA Playoffs 2021
« Reply #2069 on: June 17, 2021, 08:13:37 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Alvan Adams another guy who had his best year as a rookie and then (roughly speaking) maintained his performance steadily throughout his career without major growth. He did not have as much physical gifts as Simmons but he was a plus athlete in his own right.

Interesting parallel between the two -- neither were scorers. Neither guy was comfortable being a shot-creator. Both players were facilitators. They wanted to share the ball and play team basketball. Not be an individual shot-creator.

Alvan Adams was an undersized center who played in the high post which is actually the role I see Ben Simmons as best suited for. Either as the undersized center or as an interior four next to a stretch five where Simmons is the only interior big. Where Simmons is used as a facilitator of halfcourt offense rather than the creator of the halfcourt offense. And an opportunistic scorer / post threat. Adams had a very good 15-18 foot jump-shot to go along with his passing.

Simmons needs a little 10-12 footer and a decent free throw %.

Okafor and tyreke Evan’s were best as rookies. I was actually once viscously insulted on this board for saying Okafor was garbage and would never produce those stats again. Lol fun times.