Poll

When all is said and done, where do you think Giannis is going to rank among PFs of all time?

#1
0 (0%)
#2
5 (83.3%)
#3
1 (16.7%)
#4
0 (0%)
#5
0 (0%)
#6
0 (0%)
outside of the top 6
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 6

Author Topic: Poll: Where do you rank Giannis among PFs all time?  (Read 9922 times)

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Re: Poll: Is Giannis the best 2-way player of all time?
« Reply #75 on: July 23, 2021, 04:50:26 AM »

Offline gouki88

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Don't bother Goldstar, Moranis will convince you that KG's best teammates were superstars in disguise whule glossing over the rest of the rosters he played with :laugh:
What's your take on the KG vs Giannis debate? I mean, you are super high on KG. You are also relatively low on Giannis, cause he ain't versatile enough as a go-to scorer in the half court (which is a fair argument for both of them, imo). Have you changed your mind after the Finals?

Personally speaking, I have Duncan, Giannis and Dirk over KG (in that order). But that's just me.
Why Dirk over KG? When you compare their 11 year peak (01-12 and 97-08 respectively) I really don't know how you could come to that conclusion. Accolades are very comparable, except for KG absolutely dwarfing Dirk in All-Defensive teams (Dirk has a slight edge in All-NBA, his longevity was definitely better), both have one ring.

KG was the better rebounder, passer and defender, all by significant margins. Dirk was the better shooter and scorer, and his impact was more profound in terms of guys trying to replicate him and his skillset being sought for too much - looking at you Bargnani!. But not sure how he was better overall, or at his peak.
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Poll: Is Giannis the best 2-way player of all time?
« Reply #76 on: July 23, 2021, 05:20:26 AM »

Offline Jvalin

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Don't bother Goldstar, Moranis will convince you that KG's best teammates were superstars in disguise whule glossing over the rest of the rosters he played with :laugh:
What's your take on the KG vs Giannis debate? I mean, you are super high on KG. You are also relatively low on Giannis, cause he ain't versatile enough as a go-to scorer in the half court (which is a fair argument for both of them, imo). Have you changed your mind after the Finals?

Personally speaking, I have Duncan, Giannis and Dirk over KG (in that order). But that's just me.
Why Dirk over KG? When you compare their 11 year peak (01-12 and 97-08 respectively) I really don't know how you could come to that conclusion. Accolades are very comparable, except for KG absolutely dwarfing Dirk in All-Defensive teams (Dirk has a slight edge in All-NBA, his longevity was definitely better), both have one ring.

KG was the better rebounder, passer and defender, all by significant margins. Dirk was the better shooter and scorer, and his impact was more profound in terms of guys trying to replicate him and his skillset being sought for too much - looking at you Bargnani!. But not sure how he was better overall, or at his peak.
I value elite offense more than I value elite defense. Dirk was an elite go-to scorer in the clutch. His legendary one-legged fadeway was literally unguardable. All his opponents could do was hope that he misses the shot. As great as KG was, he relied on his teammates in the clutch. I mean, KG was our best player in 2008, but PP was our closer. Being an elite scoring option in the clutch is very important in my book.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2021, 05:26:58 AM by Jvalin »

Re: Poll: Is Giannis the best 2-way player of all time?
« Reply #77 on: July 23, 2021, 06:10:26 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Don't bother Goldstar, Moranis will convince you that KG's best teammates were superstars in disguise whule glossing over the rest of the rosters he played with :laugh:
What's your take on the KG vs Giannis debate? I mean, you are super high on KG. You are also relatively low on Giannis, cause he ain't versatile enough as a go-to scorer in the half court (which is a fair argument for both of them, imo). Have you changed your mind after the Finals?

Personally speaking, I have Duncan, Giannis and Dirk over KG (in that order). But that's just me.
Why Dirk over KG? When you compare their 11 year peak (01-12 and 97-08 respectively) I really don't know how you could come to that conclusion. Accolades are very comparable, except for KG absolutely dwarfing Dirk in All-Defensive teams (Dirk has a slight edge in All-NBA, his longevity was definitely better), both have one ring.

KG was the better rebounder, passer and defender, all by significant margins. Dirk was the better shooter and scorer, and his impact was more profound in terms of guys trying to replicate him and his skillset being sought for too much - looking at you Bargnani!. But not sure how he was better overall, or at his peak.
I value elite offense more than I value elite defense. Dirk was an elite go-to scorer in the clutch. His legendary one-legged fadeway was literally unguardable. All his opponents could do was hope that he misses the shot. As great as KG was, he relied on his teammates in the clutch. I mean, KG was our best player in 2008, but PP was our closer. Being an elite scoring option in the clutch is very important in my book.
case in point the 06 Mavericks.  60 wins and a Finals appearance with Jason Terry and Josh Howard as the 2nd and 3rd best players.  Terry and Howard were fine players, but not exactly stars.  The next year they win 67 games and lost in the 1st round because Dirk wasn't superman against the Warriors.  Even the year Dirk broke through and beat the Heat, they weren't exactly star filled unless you think 37 year old Kidd or Tyson Chandler were stars.

Early on the Mavs had solid talent around Dirk, but when they really started having post season success, the Mars weren't very good outside of Dirk. Dirk was just such a brilliant offensive player he could carry them in ways KG could not do with the Wolves, both in the regular season and the post season.  Their is significant value in that.

If I'm starting a team in the actual NBA I'd probably take Dirk. In a historical draft where lots of number 1 offensive players are available, KG has more value.
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Poll: Is Giannis the best 2-way player of all time?
« Reply #78 on: July 23, 2021, 06:34:24 AM »

Offline gouki88

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Don't bother Goldstar, Moranis will convince you that KG's best teammates were superstars in disguise whule glossing over the rest of the rosters he played with :laugh:
What's your take on the KG vs Giannis debate? I mean, you are super high on KG. You are also relatively low on Giannis, cause he ain't versatile enough as a go-to scorer in the half court (which is a fair argument for both of them, imo). Have you changed your mind after the Finals?

Personally speaking, I have Duncan, Giannis and Dirk over KG (in that order). But that's just me.
Why Dirk over KG? When you compare their 11 year peak (01-12 and 97-08 respectively) I really don't know how you could come to that conclusion. Accolades are very comparable, except for KG absolutely dwarfing Dirk in All-Defensive teams (Dirk has a slight edge in All-NBA, his longevity was definitely better), both have one ring.

KG was the better rebounder, passer and defender, all by significant margins. Dirk was the better shooter and scorer, and his impact was more profound in terms of guys trying to replicate him and his skillset being sought for too much - looking at you Bargnani!. But not sure how he was better overall, or at his peak.
I value elite offense more than I value elite defense. Dirk was an elite go-to scorer in the clutch. His legendary one-legged fadeway was literally unguardable. All his opponents could do was hope that he misses the shot. As great as KG was, he relied on his teammates in the clutch. I mean, KG was our best player in 2008, but PP was our closer. Being an elite scoring option in the clutch is very important in my book.
case in point the 06 Mavericks.  60 wins and a Finals appearance with Jason Terry and Josh Howard as the 2nd and 3rd best players.  Terry and Howard were fine players, but not exactly stars.  The next year they win 67 games and lost in the 1st round because Dirk wasn't superman against the Warriors. Even the year Dirk broke through and beat the Heat, they weren't exactly star filled unless you think 37 year old Kidd or Tyson Chandler were stars.

Early on the Mavs had solid talent around Dirk, but when they really started having post season success, the Mars weren't very good outside of Dirk. Dirk was just such a brilliant offensive player he could carry them in ways KG could not do with the Wolves, both in the regular season and the post season.  Their is significant value in that.

If I'm starting a team in the actual NBA I'd probably take Dirk. In a historical draft where lots of number 1 offensive players are available, KG has more value.
The way you twist things to try and benefit your agenda is really odd. Dirk was absolutely woeful in that series. 19PPG shooting 38% from the field and 21%. You've crucified Garnett previously for lacklustre series', yet Dirk you describe as "not superman" when by his standards he was garbage. He was also shocking in the 06 Finals, which you conveniently leave out. They even won series' in spite of Dirk playing terribly, like in 05 against Houston.
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Poll: Is Giannis the best 2-way player of all time?
« Reply #79 on: July 23, 2021, 07:03:12 AM »

Offline Jvalin

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The consensus is that Giannis can't be regarded as the best 2-way player of all time. Don't think the results were going to change, hence I made a new poll. Hopefully, it will provoke an interesting discussion. Here are the final results of the old poll (I'll post them in the OP as well).

Is Giannis the best 2-way player of all time?
No: 37 votes (84.1%)
Undecided: 4 votes (9.1%)
Yes: 3 votes (6.8%)
« Last Edit: July 23, 2021, 07:19:31 AM by Jvalin »

Re: Poll: Is Giannis the best 2-way player of all time?
« Reply #80 on: July 23, 2021, 08:22:02 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Don't bother Goldstar, Moranis will convince you that KG's best teammates were superstars in disguise whule glossing over the rest of the rosters he played with :laugh:
What's your take on the KG vs Giannis debate? I mean, you are super high on KG. You are also relatively low on Giannis, cause he ain't versatile enough as a go-to scorer in the half court (which is a fair argument for both of them, imo). Have you changed your mind after the Finals?

Personally speaking, I have Duncan, Giannis and Dirk over KG (in that order). But that's just me.
Why Dirk over KG? When you compare their 11 year peak (01-12 and 97-08 respectively) I really don't know how you could come to that conclusion. Accolades are very comparable, except for KG absolutely dwarfing Dirk in All-Defensive teams (Dirk has a slight edge in All-NBA, his longevity was definitely better), both have one ring.

KG was the better rebounder, passer and defender, all by significant margins. Dirk was the better shooter and scorer, and his impact was more profound in terms of guys trying to replicate him and his skillset being sought for too much - looking at you Bargnani!. But not sure how he was better overall, or at his peak.
I value elite offense more than I value elite defense. Dirk was an elite go-to scorer in the clutch. His legendary one-legged fadeway was literally unguardable. All his opponents could do was hope that he misses the shot. As great as KG was, he relied on his teammates in the clutch. I mean, KG was our best player in 2008, but PP was our closer. Being an elite scoring option in the clutch is very important in my book.
case in point the 06 Mavericks.  60 wins and a Finals appearance with Jason Terry and Josh Howard as the 2nd and 3rd best players.  Terry and Howard were fine players, but not exactly stars.  The next year they win 67 games and lost in the 1st round because Dirk wasn't superman against the Warriors. Even the year Dirk broke through and beat the Heat, they weren't exactly star filled unless you think 37 year old Kidd or Tyson Chandler were stars.

Early on the Mavs had solid talent around Dirk, but when they really started having post season success, the Mars weren't very good outside of Dirk. Dirk was just such a brilliant offensive player he could carry them in ways KG could not do with the Wolves, both in the regular season and the post season.  Their is significant value in that.

If I'm starting a team in the actual NBA I'd probably take Dirk. In a historical draft where lots of number 1 offensive players are available, KG has more value.
The way you twist things to try and benefit your agenda is really odd. Dirk was absolutely woeful in that series. 19PPG shooting 38% from the field and 21%. You've crucified Garnett previously for lacklustre series', yet Dirk you describe as "not superman" when by his standards he was garbage. He was also shocking in the 06 Finals, which you conveniently leave out. They even won series' in spite of Dirk playing terribly, like in 05 against Houston.
I meant it more that he was Superman the year before when he carried one of the worst teams to ever make the finals to the finals.  He was obviously very bad losing to the Warriors and didn't shoot well in the 06 Finals (though he did still average basically 23/11 in the Finals).  But he was awesome along the way (led everyone with 5.4 WS in the playoffs) and for much of those seasons, which is why the Mavs were 60 win teams.  Those teams were absolutely on par to the early 2000's Wolves teams, the difference was Dirk could carry an offense and KG couldn't, which affected both the regular season record and the playoff success. 

KG is a force multiplier, but you actually need the force for him to multiply.  KG was not the force like many of the other all time greats.  That is the point I'm making and that is why the Wolves had much less success than you would think they would with a top 5 guy for basically a decade (I believe Anthony Davis would be the modern equivalent to KG).  Seriously, how many top 5 players miss the playoffs for multiple years in the row in their prime when healthy.  And to be clear the 05 Wolves had basically the same team as the 04 team that went to the WCF (Spree, Sam I am, and a healthier Wally were all still there and only Sam missed any real number of games).  Yet they only managed 44 wins and missed the playoffs after winning 58 and making the WCF the year before.  Cassell apparently only playing 58 games and showing his age a lot more apparently had a huge effect on that team despite the fact that KG was 28 and firmly in the prime of his career.
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Poll: Where do you rank Giannis among PFs all time?
« Reply #81 on: July 23, 2021, 08:37:21 AM »

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I think it is tough to compare Dirk and KG as power forwards.  For that specific position, rebounding and defense have a higher importance or weighting than for say a wing.  So Player 1 was a better scorer but Player 2 was better defense and rebounding.  Now if this comparison was for wing, the better offense part is more important but for a PF, less so.

Everyone will draw their own conclusions but when I think of the one all time PF I want on my team, I think more of KG or even Bill Russell than I think of Dirk.  Of all the positions to assign a single all time best, PF is the hardest.  The other positions are more clear.  Magic is PG, Jordan is SG, Bird or LeBron is SF, Kareem is C.  There is debate at any position but those are all more clear to me than PF.  PF is the hardest one, now even harder with Giannis in the mix.

Re: Poll: Where do you rank Giannis among PFs all time?
« Reply #82 on: July 23, 2021, 09:23:47 AM »

Offline Jvalin

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Of all the positions to assign a single all time best, PF is the hardest.  The other positions are more clear.  Magic is PG, Jordan is SG, Bird or LeBron is SF, Kareem is C.  There is debate at any position but those are all more clear to me than PF.  PF is the hardest one, now even harder with Giannis in the mix.
Imo, the hardest one to rank is the Center position. I can think of at least 5 candidates for the #1 spot: Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Dream, Shaq. The way I see it, you can't go wrong with anyone of them. I also think Jokic will belong in the conversation in a few years' time. If it weren't for the injuries, I believe Arvydas Sabonis would have been up there as well.

Regarding PFs, I have Duncan as my clear #1. Don't think Giannis will ever reach him either.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2021, 10:08:43 AM by Jvalin »

Re: Poll: Where do you rank Giannis among PFs all time?
« Reply #83 on: July 23, 2021, 10:24:23 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

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I could see him 2 behind Duncan. Only because Duncan's success. Talent wise there is probably no one better than Giannis unless you want to count LeBron or KD as PFs playing SFs.

Re: Poll: Where do you rank Giannis among PFs all time?
« Reply #84 on: July 23, 2021, 10:50:57 AM »

Offline Moranis

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I could see him 2 behind Duncan. Only because Duncan's success. Talent wise there is probably no one better than Giannis unless you want to count LeBron or KD as PFs playing SFs.
Giannis is the only PF in history that has at least 2 MVP's, 1 DPOY, and 1 Finals MVP.  KG is the only other one with at least 1 MVP and 1 DPOY and Duncan and Dirk are the only other ones with at least 1 MVP and 1 Finals MVP (TD has 2 MVP and 3 Finals MVP, Dirk 1 each).  Pettit also has 2 MVP's and almost certainly would have won the 58 Finals MVP had it existed then.  The Mailman (2), Dirk (1), and Sir Charles (1) are the only other PF's with a MVP award.  Rodman (2) and Draymond (1) are the only other PF's with a DPOY (and no one before 83 really stands out except for maybe Hayes and Bobby Jones as having a shot at one before they started awarding it).  Hayes should probably in the discussion as all time great PF's as he was an elite defender and absolutely should have been Finals MVP, they gave it to Unseld as almost a consolation, but Hayes outrebounded him, more than doubled his scoring, out stole and out blocked Wes.  Basically the only think Unseld did better was pass the ball and Wes didn't foul out of game 7 (which I think is what gave Wes the award).   

Giannis is only 8 years in, so lots of time to go, but he is certainly trending like he will end up as either the 1st or 2nd (to Duncan) best PF of all time. 

Since Giannis is still playing, I won't include him in my rankings, but I think if I were ranking the retired PF's, I have something like this for my top 10 (outside of TD I could potentially be persuaded to alter the rankings, though it would be pretty hard to move Mailman off of 2). 

TD
Mailman
Dirk
KG
Charles
Hayes
Pettit
McHale
Rodman
Gasol

I thought a bit on 10 ultimately deciding on Pau as a lot of his best years were at PF.  I think Schayes and Lucas would also have arguments among the retired players (or at least players where more time won't change anything so basically no Giannis or Davis). 

If Giannis didn't play another game, I'd probably have him between Charles and Hayes and if Davis retired tomorrow, I'd probably have him ahead of Pau and maybe Rodman.
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Poll: Where do you rank Giannis among PFs all time?
« Reply #85 on: July 23, 2021, 10:52:29 AM »

Online Roy H.

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As a “pure” PF, I think it’s Karl Malone.  Duncan spent a ton of time at center.  If Duncan counts, then he’s #1.  But, if Duncan counts, shouldn’t Larry Bird?  (Or Lebron / Durant?)

1. Bird
2. Duncan
3. K. Malone
4. Garnett
5. Giannis
6. Dirk


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Re: Poll: Where do you rank Giannis among PFs all time?
« Reply #86 on: July 23, 2021, 12:12:09 PM »

Offline Moranis

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As a “pure” PF, I think it’s Karl Malone.  Duncan spent a ton of time at center.  If Duncan counts, then he’s #1.  But, if Duncan counts, shouldn’t Larry Bird?  (Or Lebron / Durant?)

1. Bird
2. Duncan
3. K. Malone
4. Garnett
5. Giannis
6. Dirk
Duncan started out at PF and morphed into a C when he aged, but pretty much all of his best seasons were at PF, which is why I consider him a PF.  Also all of his post season hardware were in his PF seasons i.e. the 2 MVP's and the 3 Finals MVP's.  Almost all of his 1st Team All NBA and 1st Team All Defense were also when he was a PF (he had a couple/few of each after that, but he wasn't the same player at center).  That isn't true of Bird, James, or Durant as they all spent almost all of their best seasons at SF (though James always has played more of a position less type role, he still was almost exclusively a SF till his last 2 seasons in Miami and then went back to SF when he joined Love in Cleveland). 
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Poll: Where do you rank Giannis among PFs all time?
« Reply #87 on: July 23, 2021, 03:25:56 PM »

Offline Big333223

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In the way we've traditionally positioned these guys, I think Duncan is #1 and then there's a bit of a morass behind him of Barkley, Malone, Dirk, KG, and Pettit. Giannis is in that morass for now.

As for Giannis v. KG... Giannis is a comparable defender and passer but a more reliable scorer. This is all made more difficult because Giannis is only 26 but it's possible he's better already.

btw, As much as I like McHale, he's on the next tier down.
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