Frustration at the whole season!

[slamtheking]

the Heat were better than us last year and still are better.  Arizia and Dedmon ate us alive.

I wouldn't go that far but they did offer better bench options than much of the players we had coming off the bench

[jambr380]

the Heat were better than us last year and still are better.  Arizia and Dedmon ate us alive.

Dedmon is hardly amazing, but he is solide and was there for the taking all season. I'd definitely rather have him than Kornet...who we gave up Theis for. Javale McGee returned two 2nds - imagine if we traded Theis for two 2nds and signed Dedmon instead.

[Roy H.]

the Heat were better than us last year and still are better.  Arizia and Dedmon ate us alive.

Dedmon is hardly amazing, but he is solide and was there for the taking all season. I'd definitely rather have him than Kornet...who we gave up Theis for. Javale McGee returned two 2nds - imagine if we traded Theis for two 2nds and signed Dedmon instead.

I really don’t understand why it took so long for somebody to sign them. I thought we should take a flyer on him, and I was surprised that the Nets didn’t.  As you said, he’s not amazing, but he is a rotation player who was available for the minimum.

[johnnygreen]

The season may have ended yesterday. If they end up playing in the play-in tournament, there are two bad scenarios. If they win the 7-8 game, they are the 7th seed and face Brooklyn, a team they went 0-3 against this season and not once played them with Durant, Kyrie, and Harden in the same game. If they lose the 7-8 game and face the winner of the 9-10 game, it could be very likely they miss the actual playoffs. I could easily see this team looking past the 9-10 winner, and being more concerned about what they need to do against Philadelphia. That is how the team has seemingly operated all season with looking past the opponent in front of them and focusing on team’s ahead on their schedule. Too many times, they don’t respect opponents with worst records than them, and act as if they just show up, the other team will just lay down.

[Vermont Green]

the Heat were better than us last year and still are better.  Arizia and Dedmon ate us alive.

Dedmon is hardly amazing, but he is solide and was there for the taking all season. I'd definitely rather have him than Kornet...who we gave up Theis for. Javale McGee returned two 2nds - imagine if we traded Theis for two 2nds and signed Dedmon instead.

I really don’t understand why it took so long for somebody to sign them. I thought we should take a flyer on him, and I was surprised that the Nets didn’t.  As you said, he’s not amazing, but he is a rotation player who was available for the minimum.

Dedmon was out there and I guess we could have taken him over Parker (assuming he was willing to come to Boston) but Ariza came to Miami in a trade, right (with OKC for Leonard and 2 2nd rnd picks I think)?  He has a $12.8M contract for 2020-21.  I think it would have been Ariza over Fournier.  I don't think he was exactly there for the taking for us.  Now trading Theis is still a mystery to me.  I know it was all part of the gymnastics to stay under the tax level but we gave up a useful player at a position of need.  Had to have been another way.

[PhoSita]

The season may have ended yesterday. If they end up playing in the play-in tournament, there are two bad scenarios. If they win the 7-8 game, they are the 7th seed and face Brooklyn, a team they went 0-3 against this season and not once played them with Durant, Kyrie, and Harden in the same game. If they lose the 7-8 game and face the winner of the 9-10 game, it could be very likely they miss the actual playoffs. I could easily see this team looking past the 9-10 winner, and being more concerned about what they need to do against Philadelphia. That is how the team has seemingly operated all season with looking past the opponent in front of them and focusing on team’s ahead on their schedule. Too many times, they don’t respect opponents with worst records than them, and act as if they just show up, the other team will just lay down.

Call me a bad fan but I'd rather they lose a couple of close games against Charlotte and Washington than have them make it to Round 1 and get their doors blown off by Kyrie and co. or by Embiid / Simmons.

[nyceltsfan]

The season may have ended yesterday. If they end up playing in the play-in tournament, there are two bad scenarios. If they win the 7-8 game, they are the 7th seed and face Brooklyn, a team they went 0-3 against this season and not once played them with Durant, Kyrie, and Harden in the same game. If they lose the 7-8 game and face the winner of the 9-10 game, it could be very likely they miss the actual playoffs. I could easily see this team looking past the 9-10 winner, and being more concerned about what they need to do against Philadelphia. That is how the team has seemingly operated all season with looking past the opponent in front of them and focusing on team’s ahead on their schedule. Too many times, they don’t respect opponents with worst records than them, and act as if they just show up, the other team will just lay down.

Call me a bad fan but I'd rather they lose a couple of close games against Charlotte and Washington than have them make it to Round 1 and get their doors blown off by Kyrie and co. or by Embiid / Simmons.

I understand the sentiment, but I just cannot wrap my head around this team being a middling or bad team.  I am sick of the excuses that this guy got hurt, or they played 10 games without (name your player).  However, what Van Gundy said on Friday night resonated with me.  The term "Next Man Up" implies that all the players are equal, which they are not.  What I don't understand is whether the Celtics are just cursed with injuries and the like, or is it something with team conditioning or the staff?

I have mixed feelings about blaming Brad, but I do think he was dealt a raw hand.  The players' health has been so inconsistent, it has forced him to play less than ideal lineups and his gameplan needs to change more game to game than almost any other coach in the league, rather than having the more talented team (which IMO, would be at least 70% of the season, when fully healthy) and forcing the other team to adjust to us.

I am not sure where they should go from here, but I cannot believe this team was in the ECF last year, given what we are seeing now.

[slamtheking]

The season may have ended yesterday. If they end up playing in the play-in tournament, there are two bad scenarios. If they win the 7-8 game, they are the 7th seed and face Brooklyn, a team they went 0-3 against this season and not once played them with Durant, Kyrie, and Harden in the same game. If they lose the 7-8 game and face the winner of the 9-10 game, it could be very likely they miss the actual playoffs. I could easily see this team looking past the 9-10 winner, and being more concerned about what they need to do against Philadelphia. That is how the team has seemingly operated all season with looking past the opponent in front of them and focusing on team’s ahead on their schedule. Too many times, they don’t respect opponents with worst records than them, and act as if they just show up, the other team will just lay down.

Call me a bad fan but I'd rather they lose a couple of close games against Charlotte and Washington than have them make it to Round 1 and get their doors blown off by Kyrie and co. or by Embiid / Simmons.

I don't want them to lose at all.  I want them to play as hard as possible as long as they can into the playoffs.  if they get through the play-in and end up getting smoked by either Philly or Brooklyn, so be it.  Hopefully that'll light a fire under them not to loaf through next season into a middling record and want to administer some payback next year. 

of course that would require them to have a sense of pride in their play which has not been on display this year.

[Moranis]

The season may have ended yesterday. If they end up playing in the play-in tournament, there are two bad scenarios. If they win the 7-8 game, they are the 7th seed and face Brooklyn, a team they went 0-3 against this season and not once played them with Durant, Kyrie, and Harden in the same game. If they lose the 7-8 game and face the winner of the 9-10 game, it could be very likely they miss the actual playoffs. I could easily see this team looking past the 9-10 winner, and being more concerned about what they need to do against Philadelphia. That is how the team has seemingly operated all season with looking past the opponent in front of them and focusing on team’s ahead on their schedule. Too many times, they don’t respect opponents with worst records than them, and act as if they just show up, the other team will just lay down.

Call me a bad fan but I'd rather they lose a couple of close games against Charlotte and Washington than have them make it to Round 1 and get their doors blown off by Kyrie and co. or by Embiid / Simmons.

I understand the sentiment, but I just cannot wrap my head around this team being a middling or bad team.  I am sick of the excuses that this guy got hurt, or they played 10 games without (name your player).  However, what Van Gundy said on Friday night resonated with me.  The term "Next Man Up" implies that all the players are equal, which they are not.  What I don't understand is whether the Celtics are just cursed with injuries and the like, or is it something with team conditioning or the staff?

I have mixed feelings about blaming Brad, but I do think he was dealt a raw hand.  The players' health has been so inconsistent, it has forced him to play less than ideal lineups and his gameplan needs to change more game to game than almost any other coach in the league, rather than having the more talented team (which IMO, would be at least 70% of the season, when fully healthy) and forcing the other team to adjust to us.

I am not sure where they should go from here, but I cannot believe this team was in the ECF last year, given what we are seeing now.

Boston is 35-33 on on pace for a 42 or 43 win season over a full 82 game season.  I don't really see how anyone would think they'd have been much better than that.  Maybe a couple of extra wins (I thought they'd be around 44-49 wins), but this isn't a 50+ win team and never was going to be (without near perfect health).  And looking at the standings, NY, and maybe Atlanta, are the only teams that are surprisingly ahead of Boston, though both Indiana and Toronto are behind it, so I think that evens out some.

I never really understood why this board was so high on this particular team.  Tatum and Brown are both on the upswing, but they aren't top 10 players and while I think Tatum is a back end top 15 player, it is debatable.  Brown is probably in the 20-25 range and Walker is probably in the low 30's.  The rest of the team is, quite simply, not very good, including Smart who still mostly acts like he is Michael Jordan on offense.  A team that lacks true top end talent and that isn't very deep, needs to be very healthy to be really good (much like Phoenix and Utah both are this year - though they are both deeper than Boston, but it is also why I don't think they are true contenders either).  Boston wasn't healthy and doesn't have true top end talent.  Given that, this team has performed about as expected. 

All that said, if Boston beats Miami tomorrow, the next two games should be wins, which would set up a huge game at NY to close the season.  The 4th seed is still in play and the 5th seed may actually be the most likely result, if they beat Miami.  If they end up playing NY or Atlanta in the 4/5 match-up, I'd expect Boston to win (Miami would be tougher, but still is doable).  It all starts with Miami though.  They have to beat Miami. 

[johnnygreen]

The season may have ended yesterday. If they end up playing in the play-in tournament, there are two bad scenarios. If they win the 7-8 game, they are the 7th seed and face Brooklyn, a team they went 0-3 against this season and not once played them with Durant, Kyrie, and Harden in the same game. If they lose the 7-8 game and face the winner of the 9-10 game, it could be very likely they miss the actual playoffs. I could easily see this team looking past the 9-10 winner, and being more concerned about what they need to do against Philadelphia. That is how the team has seemingly operated all season with looking past the opponent in front of them and focusing on team’s ahead on their schedule. Too many times, they don’t respect opponents with worst records than them, and act as if they just show up, the other team will just lay down.

Call me a bad fan but I'd rather they lose a couple of close games against Charlotte and Washington than have them make it to Round 1 and get their doors blown off by Kyrie and co. or by Embiid / Simmons.

The bad fan in me, wants the team to lose the 7-8 game. Then the fan in me, wants them to beat the 9-10 winner. I don't believe the Celtics have any chance against Brooklyn. However, I do think they could beat Philadelphia.

[Celtics2021]

the Heat were better than us last year and still are better.  Arizia and Dedmon ate us alive.

Dedmon is hardly amazing, but he is solide and was there for the taking all season. I'd definitely rather have him than Kornet...who we gave up Theis for. Javale McGee returned two 2nds - imagine if we traded Theis for two 2nds and signed Dedmon instead.

Notably Cleveland took on salary for next year and one of those two picks is protected, so it's not exactly an apple-to-apples trade that you're wishing for.  Although I too am disappointed with the return we got for Theis and am shocked that this could have been the best option.

[PhoSita]

Boston is 35-33 on on pace for a 42 or 43 win season over a full 82 game season.  I don't really see how anyone would think they'd have been much better than that.  Maybe a couple of extra wins (I thought they'd be around 44-49 wins), but this isn't a 50+ win team and never was going to be (without near perfect health). 

I don't want to have this debate again, but I think you know full well why people expected the team to be better than that.  A combination of recent playoff success (despite missing Gordon Hayward), as well as the fact that for the preceding 3-4 years the team had regularly ended up winning 4-5 games more in the regular season than might have been anticipated just from looking at the roster.


This is arguably the first season in a while where the Celtics are going to end up with less wins than would have reasonably been anticipated based on the roster before the season began, instead of overachieving by a handful of wins.

I understand that your position is that "they were never that talented anyway," but that argument overlooks the fact that we've come to expect this team to play above its talent level.  Even in 2019 you could say they just fell closer to their talent level of production rather than significantly exceeding it as they had the previous year.  Heading into the 2018-2019 season, the players on the roster had combined for only 47 Win Shares in the 2017-2018 season.  The team ended up winning 49 games.

By comparison, in 2018 the Celts entered the season with only 39 Win Shares on the roster from the previous season.  They ended up winning 55 games.

[hwangjini_1]

The frustration leads back to the offseason, leading into the season.  Losing GH for a bag of jock straps set this team way back.  Now, we've used up most of the TPE on Fournier, although they still have $11M remaining.

I think DA should have just made the trade with Indy in the offseason.  We'd probably be better off with Turner and whatever else we got in return.

Considering Turner is out with a bad case of turf toe that might require surgery, I don’t think that’s at all a given.

in addition, are we all sure that hayward would have decided to accept the trade (he had control over it)? or might he have taken charlotte's eventual offer?

[Celtics4ever]

There are a lot of guys out there who we could have signed who would have helped this team.   Kevin Porter Jr. is one but he has a ton of problems.

They did not even have Victor out there either of course, we had a lame Timelord and no Brown but their depth is better than ours.

[Moranis]

Boston is 35-33 on on pace for a 42 or 43 win season over a full 82 game season.  I don't really see how anyone would think they'd have been much better than that.  Maybe a couple of extra wins (I thought they'd be around 44-49 wins), but this isn't a 50+ win team and never was going to be (without near perfect health). 

I don't want to have this debate again, but I think you know full well why people expected the team to be better than that.  A combination of recent playoff success (despite missing Gordon Hayward), as well as the fact that for the preceding 3-4 years the team had regularly ended up winning 4-5 games more in the regular season than might have been anticipated just from looking at the roster.


This is arguably the first season in a while where the Celtics are going to end up with less wins than would have reasonably been anticipated based on the roster before the season began, instead of overachieving by a handful of wins.

I understand that your position is that "they were never that talented anyway," but that argument overlooks the fact that we've come to expect this team to play above its talent level.  Even in 2019 you could say they just fell closer to their talent level of production rather than significantly exceeding it as they had the previous year.  Heading into the 2018-2019 season, the players on the roster had combined for only 47 Win Shares in the 2017-2018 season.  The team ended up winning 49 games.

By comparison, in 2018 the Celts entered the season with only 39 Win Shares on the roster from the previous season.  They ended up winning 55 games.

Oh no question the team has overachieved in recent seasons, but expecting a team to consistently overachieve, especially as it loses talented players and replaces them with lesser talented players, isn't exactly a reasonable expectation.  And I would posit that the team has in fact overachieved again this season given the injuries, lack of continuity, and covid (especially for Tatum).  The team has missed a lot of games and the 3 best players are all hampered with something even when they do play i.e. Tatum covid, Brown tendinitis, and Walker injury.  The fact that they are even above .500 is actually fairly impressive and is an absolute reflection of how good the coach is. 

As a counterpoint to that though, if you look at actual projected W/L on a place like bball-ref, Boston has actually underachieved in 19, 20, and thus far in 21 as the projected W/L those seasons were all greater than the actual W/L.  In fact, 17 and 18 were the only two seasons in Stevens tenure that the team won more games than the projected wins based on the season.  That said, I still think the team has overachieved under Stevens because the talent level has been below the expected results most of those years when entering the season.  So maybe it has both over and under achieved at the same time, and on some level I think that makes sense i.e. Stevens does a great job managing the overall season boosting the wins and performance, but the team ends up losing too many of the close games meaning it actually under performs based on the team's stats.