Should Toni Kukoč Be In the Hall of Fame?

[GreenlyGreeny]

So if say Marcus Smart had spent his teens and early 20s in two Euro leagues dominating the competition with 20+ PPG and then spent seven seasons with the Celtics averaging 14.1 points, 4.8 rebounds and 4.2 assists, that would make him a HOFer? I love Marcus, but no way is he a HOFer simply because he’s capable of being dominant in Europe (like so many other borderline NBA all-stars/all-defenders).

Is Marcus Smart paving the way for future generations to do what was previously unthinkable? No, because he'd be just another American basketballer lighting it up in Europe (which, frankly, I don't think he would given how hard it is to score in top Euro leagues). Kukoc was also massively important in Olympic basketball and Yugoslav basketball with Petrovic and Radja

Huh? Rik Smits was a second overall pick in the 1980s, long before Kukoc. Detlef Schrempf was a lottery pick before both Rik and Vlade, if memory serves. Why are they not in the basketball HOF for being the real Euro trailblazers? Thought that Euro trailblazer argument is one of the reasons why Vlade is in the HOF, anyway? That was a somewhat questionable selection, but now Toni two years later is just making the basketball HOF a joke, frankly (at least Vlade had been an NBA all-star who almost averaged a double-double with 1.4 BPG)…

Detlef Schrempf went to high school in Washington, and Rik Smits played college ball in the US. Neither had any real impact on European basketball because they didn't play European basketball. I feel like if you're asking that question you are showing your ignorance of Euro. You've even said you don't watch college ball or Euro ball. This is the basketball hall of fame, not the NBA hall of fame. Once you get your head around that concept it's pretty easy to see why these players make it.

I’ve already acknowledged that with my props to Arvydas Sabonis. In contrast to Arvydas, Toni’s prime years were in the NBA and the numbers simply do not cut it. Vlade has Toni beat as the Euro trailblazer, too (diminishing the basketball HOF with these Euro trailblazer arguments is unbecoming…).

Prior to the one-and-done era, college ball was definitely far more competitive than Euro ball, but we don’t see Christian Laettner (arguably the greatest college basketball player of all-time) in the basketball HOF, do we?

You lost me here. Does anyone really argue that Laettner was the greatest college basketball player of all time?

Most people have Kareem, Oscar, Maravich, and Walton in their top 4 (Kareem is generally 1 and then it varies), but Laettner is as high as 5 on a bunch of lists and is basically in everyone's top 10.  He did hit the most iconic shot in the sports history and in his 4 years played in 23 NCAA tournament games (the max he could have played was 24) and he played a lot more recently than the guys ahead of him (making it a harder feat).  Duke also took a pretty massive step back when he graduated going from 34-2 and the national title to 24-8 (3rd in ACC) and losing in the 2nd round the next year (and that team still had Grant Hill, Bobby Hurley, Cherokee Parks, and Antonio Lang).

Another thing to consider: Given the prevalence of one-and-done, it’s almost certainly going to be the case for time immemorial that Laettner is the greatest college basketball player in the history of college ball with a three point line (i.e., best player after 1986). His performance as a young adult is just as impressive as the young adult accomplishments of these aforementioned Euros, it not more so. None accomplished elite results in the elite league of the NBA, though.

Frankly, Sabonis is the first Euro worthy of the basketball HOF strictly on talent alone. Dirk is probably the second. Had either one been born in the USA, they’d be HOFers on the first ballot. Not true of these other Euros, but especially Kukoc.

You don't think Petrovic makes the Hall of Fame on talent alone, and wouldn't have made it if born & raised in the US? That is by far the most outrageous thing you've said in this thread so far. He was an All-NBA calibre guard and is still regarded as one of the best all-round shooters ever to play.

Impossible to say for sure because he died too young with just a handful of NBA seasons under his belt. I did throw in the “probably” with regards to Dirk because of Petrovic, though. Either way, Dirk is second or third.

[chicagoceltic]

I'm having trouble seeing how Euro play preceding NBA has all that much to do with selection to the HOF .  If it's a borderline selection or a unique case such as Arvydas Sabonis, but other than that I don't see it. 

On the other hand, I'll defer to anyone who knows more than I do (which is everyone) about the impact any particular Euro/Int has had on basketball from an outside of the USA perspective.  That argument I can't counter. 

But as far as 4 or 5 years of Euro stats and honors -- I can't see that as too much different than a college phenom (back in the 4-year days) going on to have an above average NBA career.   Let's imagine if Larry Bird after his terrific college play at Indiana State (3 years, 30ppg, 13 rpg, 4.6 apg...) went on to have an above average NBA career for 10 years or so (remember, Bird was 23 his rookie year).   Would anyone think he should be in the HOF?  In fact, most people would have probably considered him a bust.

I don't think Euro play preceding the NBA has much impact now in the same way that NCAA play does not have much impact. It is only for the first few guys who made the transition.

Think of it from another angle. If nobody from the NCAA had ever made it to the NBA before then it would be pretty remarkable to see the first couple of guys do it. That is how I see some of those early 90s guys (Marciulionis, Vlade, Petrovic).

The question to me is Kukoc also included in that group or he is considered outside that group. I always viewed him as not the same but closely linked to them. So where does that leave Kukoc?

Kukoc was the first Euro I remember being excited about coming over to the NBA. Wondering how good he could be. He was the first guy we really heard about before he came over. Sabonis yeah in the 80s but he didn't come over until 1995 when he was old and battered. Kukoc was the premier star of European basketball and he was the first to come with expectations.

Petrovic was the first star player but that was after a few years of toiling on the end of Portland's bench. Vlade was considered a solid but underachieving soft NBA center (useful but unexceptional) until the mid-90s when he got some more credit for his abilities. Marciulionis was better than Vlade but Sarunas got hurt just as he was breaking out.

This was the state of the Euros when Kukoc arrived in 1993. One starter, two starter quality players. It was the early days. I mean, Petrovic made his first All-NBA team the year before Kukoc arrived. Petrovic was wrongly overlooked for the All-Star game so none of them had made an ASG (neither did Kukoc).

This was still very early on in terms of Euros being (1) accepted as legit NBA level players (2) Valued as key components of teams (3) thirdly sought after in drafts, trades and free agency. It was all a process. Kukoc to me played a big role in that process (even though he was not among the first 3).

It's further important to note that Sarunas, Petrovic and Vlade are all in the Hall.

Yep. All I’m saying is three Euro trailblazers in the HOF is enough, and not a single one them makes the HOF if they’re born in the USA (their youngest years in Europe would have translated to Laettner-esque college ball history). Kukoc is taking this too far, and quite the stretch, particularly when thinking back to how much he was hyped by Krause and Co. Frankly, compared to the Euros before him and the Americans before him, Kukoc has no business being in the HOF. His induction clearly dilutes the significance of the institution. No way this happens if he’s not a white dude who had the good fortune of being MJ’s teammate on the second three-peat. Bet MJ, Pippen and Rodman shake their heads at the idea of Kukoc in the HOF.

MJ and Reinsdorf are presenting Kucoc at the Hall of Fame and Pippen tweeted out that it was "about time..." so you may not want to bet too much.

https://larrybrownsports.com/basketball/toni-kukoc-michael-jordan-jerry-reinsdorf-hall-of-fame-co-presenters/582505#:~:text=Michael%20Jordan%20will%20be%20making%20an%20appearance%20on,Bulls%20owner%20Jerry%20Reinsdorf%20to%20be%20his%20co-presenters.


https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/bulls-toni-kukoc-selected-hall-fame-class-2021

Rodman keeps it real.

How did Rodman keep it real with Kukoc? I could not find anything regarding Rodman commenting on Kukoc making the HOF.

[gouki88]

I'm having trouble seeing how Euro play preceding NBA has all that much to do with selection to the HOF .  If it's a borderline selection or a unique case such as Arvydas Sabonis, but other than that I don't see it. 

On the other hand, I'll defer to anyone who knows more than I do (which is everyone) about the impact any particular Euro/Int has had on basketball from an outside of the USA perspective.  That argument I can't counter. 

But as far as 4 or 5 years of Euro stats and honors -- I can't see that as too much different than a college phenom (back in the 4-year days) going on to have an above average NBA career.   Let's imagine if Larry Bird after his terrific college play at Indiana State (3 years, 30ppg, 13 rpg, 4.6 apg...) went on to have an above average NBA career for 10 years or so (remember, Bird was 23 his rookie year).   Would anyone think he should be in the HOF?  In fact, most people would have probably considered him a bust.

I don't think Euro play preceding the NBA has much impact now in the same way that NCAA play does not have much impact. It is only for the first few guys who made the transition.

Think of it from another angle. If nobody from the NCAA had ever made it to the NBA before then it would be pretty remarkable to see the first couple of guys do it. That is how I see some of those early 90s guys (Marciulionis, Vlade, Petrovic).

The question to me is Kukoc also included in that group or he is considered outside that group. I always viewed him as not the same but closely linked to them. So where does that leave Kukoc?

Kukoc was the first Euro I remember being excited about coming over to the NBA. Wondering how good he could be. He was the first guy we really heard about before he came over. Sabonis yeah in the 80s but he didn't come over until 1995 when he was old and battered. Kukoc was the premier star of European basketball and he was the first to come with expectations.

Petrovic was the first star player but that was after a few years of toiling on the end of Portland's bench. Vlade was considered a solid but underachieving soft NBA center (useful but unexceptional) until the mid-90s when he got some more credit for his abilities. Marciulionis was better than Vlade but Sarunas got hurt just as he was breaking out.

This was the state of the Euros when Kukoc arrived in 1993. One starter, two starter quality players. It was the early days. I mean, Petrovic made his first All-NBA team the year before Kukoc arrived. Petrovic was wrongly overlooked for the All-Star game so none of them had made an ASG (neither did Kukoc).

This was still very early on in terms of Euros being (1) accepted as legit NBA level players (2) Valued as key components of teams (3) thirdly sought after in drafts, trades and free agency. It was all a process. Kukoc to me played a big role in that process (even though he was not among the first 3).

It's further important to note that Sarunas, Petrovic and Vlade are all in the Hall.

Yep. All I’m saying is three Euro trailblazers in the HOF is enough, and not a single one them makes the HOF if they’re born in the USA (their youngest years in Europe would have translated to Laettner-esque college ball history). Kukoc is taking this too far, and quite the stretch, particularly when thinking back to how much he was hyped by Krause and Co. Frankly, compared to the Euros before him and the Americans before him, Kukoc has no business being in the HOF. His induction clearly dilutes the significance of the institution. No way this happens if he’s not a white dude who had the good fortune of being MJ’s teammate on the second three-peat. Bet MJ, Pippen and Rodman shake their heads at the idea of Kukoc in the HOF.

MJ and Reinsdorf are presenting Kucoc at the Hall of Fame and Pippen tweeted out that it was "about time..." so you may not want to bet too much.

https://larrybrownsports.com/basketball/toni-kukoc-michael-jordan-jerry-reinsdorf-hall-of-fame-co-presenters/582505#:~:text=Michael%20Jordan%20will%20be%20making%20an%20appearance%20on,Bulls%20owner%20Jerry%20Reinsdorf%20to%20be%20his%20co-presenters.


https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/bulls-toni-kukoc-selected-hall-fame-class-2021

Rodman keeps it real.

Gotta love the backpedal when your assertion is not only not backed up by what actually happened, but directly proven wrong.

[Moranis]

Does Robert Morse belong in the Hall of Fame?  It strikes me if you think Kukoc does, than Morse probably does as well. 

And I know, the question you are asking is who the heck is Bob Morse.  Glad you asked.

Morse is very likely the most prolific American to play in European leagues.  He made the FIBA 50 most influential list.  He also had a hugely successful college career at U. of Penn.  At Penn, he led the team in scoring all 3 of his seasons and they were 78-6 overall with two elite eights. 

After college he went straight to Europe playing in the Italian league for Varese, where he led them to seven consecutive EuroLeague Finals (73-79) appearances including 3 EuroLeague Championships (73, 75, 76) as well as 4 Italian league titles (73, 74, 77, 78).  He led the Italian League in scoring 6 of his 11 seasons where his career averages were 27.8 ppg and 8.9 rpg.  He shot 60.9% from the field, 85.9% from the line, and an amazing 54.5% from 3.  As I mentioned, he was selected as one of the 50 Greatest FIBA players ever in 2008 and is probably the most successful American to ever play in Europe, given totality of career.  His contemporary Chuck Jura (also playing in the Italian League in the 70's) is probably the only American even on his level.

If this is truly the basketball Hall of Fame, then why isn't Bob Morse in it?

[gouki88]

Does Robert Morse belong in the Hall of Fame?  It strikes me if you think Kukoc does, than Morse probably does as well. 

And I know, the question you are asking is who the heck is Bob Morse.  Glad you asked.

Morse is very likely the most prolific American to play in European leagues.  He made the FIBA 50 most influential list.  He also had a hugely successful college career at U. of Penn.  At Penn, he led the team in scoring all 3 of his seasons and they were 78-6 overall with two elite eights. 

After college he went straight to Europe playing in the Italian league for Varese, where he led them to seven consecutive EuroLeague Finals (73-79) appearances including 3 EuroLeague Championships (73, 75, 76) as well as 4 Italian league titles (73, 74, 77, 78).  He led the Italian League in scoring 6 of his 11 seasons where his career averages were 27.8 ppg and 8.9 rpg.  He shot 60.9% from the field, 85.9% from the line, and an amazing 54.5% from 3.  As I mentioned, he was selected as one of the 50 Greatest FIBA players ever in 2008 and is probably the most successful American to ever play in Europe, given totality of career.  His contemporary Chuck Jura (also playing in the Italian League in the 70's) is probably the only American even on his level.

If this is truly the basketball Hall of Fame, then why isn't Bob Morse in it?

What pathways did he open for future basketball players in his home country?

[Moranis]

Does Robert Morse belong in the Hall of Fame?  It strikes me if you think Kukoc does, than Morse probably does as well. 

And I know, the question you are asking is who the heck is Bob Morse.  Glad you asked.

Morse is very likely the most prolific American to play in European leagues.  He made the FIBA 50 most influential list.  He also had a hugely successful college career at U. of Penn.  At Penn, he led the team in scoring all 3 of his seasons and they were 78-6 overall with two elite eights. 

After college he went straight to Europe playing in the Italian league for Varese, where he led them to seven consecutive EuroLeague Finals (73-79) appearances including 3 EuroLeague Championships (73, 75, 76) as well as 4 Italian league titles (73, 74, 77, 78).  He led the Italian League in scoring 6 of his 11 seasons where his career averages were 27.8 ppg and 8.9 rpg.  He shot 60.9% from the field, 85.9% from the line, and an amazing 54.5% from 3.  As I mentioned, he was selected as one of the 50 Greatest FIBA players ever in 2008 and is probably the most successful American to ever play in Europe, given totality of career.  His contemporary Chuck Jura (also playing in the Italian League in the 70's) is probably the only American even on his level.

If this is truly the basketball Hall of Fame, then why isn't Bob Morse in it?

What pathways did he open for future basketball players in his home country?

What pathways did Kukoc open? He wasn't the 1st Yugoslavian in the NBA (he wasn't even the 2nd or basically 3rd either since Radja was drafted before him as well). He wasn't the first Yugoslavian to have success in the NBA (he wasn't even the 2nd and the first 2 had more).  Etc.

Morse went from college to Europe and had great success doing so. He showed a pathway to a successful career and ended up one of the 50 greatest players in European history.   If it is a basketball HOF then Bob Morse absolutely should be in it if you start putting people like Kukoc in it.