Should Toni Kukoč Be In the Hall of Fame?

[moiso]

There should be an NBA Hall of Fame and a separate Hall of Fame for everyone else.  I think the NBA is important enough to have it's own Hall of Fame.  It gets weird for me when we have to compare the worthiness of a multiple time NBA allstar versus some European coach that a lot of us have never heard of.  Or something like Chris Webber vs Geno Auriemma.   Kukoc definitely wouldn't be an NBA Hall of Famer.

[Moranis]

So if say Marcus Smart had spent his teens and early 20s in two Euro leagues dominating the competition with 20+ PPG and then spent seven seasons with the Celtics averaging 14.1 points, 4.8 rebounds and 4.2 assists, that would make him a HOFer? I love Marcus, but no way is he a HOFer simply because he’s capable of being dominant in Europe (like so many other borderline NBA all-stars/all-defenders).

Is Marcus Smart paving the way for future generations to do what was previously unthinkable? No, because he'd be just another American basketballer lighting it up in Europe (which, frankly, I don't think he would given how hard it is to score in top Euro leagues). Kukoc was also massively important in Olympic basketball and Yugoslav basketball with Petrovic and Radja

Huh? Rik Smits was a second overall pick in the 1980s, long before Kukoc. Detlef Schrempf was a lottery pick before both Rik and Vlade, if memory serves. Why are they not in the basketball HOF for being the real Euro trailblazers? Thought that Euro trailblazer argument is one of the reasons why Vlade is in the HOF, anyway? That was a somewhat questionable selection, but now Toni two years later is just making the basketball HOF a joke, frankly (at least Vlade had been an NBA all-star who almost averaged a double-double with 1.4 BPG)…

Detlef Schrempf went to high school in Washington, and Rik Smits played college ball in the US. Neither had any real impact on European basketball because they didn't play European basketball. I feel like if you're asking that question you are showing your ignorance of Euro. You've even said you don't watch college ball or Euro ball. This is the basketball hall of fame, not the NBA hall of fame. Once you get your head around that concept it's pretty easy to see why these players make it.

I’ve already acknowledged that with my props to Arvydas Sabonis. In contrast to Arvydas, Toni’s prime years were in the NBA and the numbers simply do not cut it. Vlade has Toni beat as the Euro trailblazer, too (diminishing the basketball HOF with these Euro trailblazer arguments is unbecoming…).

Prior to the one-and-done era, college ball was definitely far more competitive than Euro ball, but we don’t see Christian Laettner (arguably the greatest college basketball player of all-time) in the basketball HOF, do we?

You lost me here. Does anyone really argue that Laettner was the greatest college basketball player of all time?

Most people have Kareem, Oscar, Maravich, and Walton in their top 4 (Kareem is generally 1 and then it varies), but Laettner is as high as 5 on a bunch of lists and is basically in everyone's top 10.  He did hit the most iconic shot in the sports history and in his 4 years played in 23 NCAA tournament games (the max he could have played was 24) and he played a lot more recently than the guys ahead of him (making it a harder feat).  Duke also took a pretty massive step back when he graduated going from 34-2 and the national title to 24-8 (3rd in ACC) and losing in the 2nd round the next year (and that team still had Grant Hill, Bobby Hurley, Cherokee Parks, and Antonio Lang).   

[Kernewek]

“Most people” & “basically everyone” in the Trump sense, because clearly we are not going to find this universal agreement anywhere in physical or digital print.

[gouki88]

I'm having trouble seeing how Euro play preceding NBA has all that much to do with selection to the HOF .  If it's a borderline selection or a unique case such as Arvydas Sabonis, but other than that I don't see it. 

On the other hand, I'll defer to anyone who knows more than I do (which is everyone) about the impact any particular Euro/Int has had on basketball from an outside of the USA perspective.  That argument I can't counter. 

But as far as 4 or 5 years of Euro stats and honors -- I can't see that as too much different than a college phenom (back in the 4-year days) going on to have an above average NBA career.   Let's imagine if Larry Bird after his terrific college play at Indiana State (3 years, 30ppg, 13 rpg, 4.6 apg...) went on to have an above average NBA career for 10 years or so (remember, Bird was 23 his rookie year).   Would anyone think he should be in the HOF?  In fact, most people would have probably considered him a bust.

I don't think Euro play preceding the NBA has much impact now in the same way that NCAA play does not have much impact. It is only for the first few guys who made the transition.

Think of it from another angle. If nobody from the NCAA had ever made it to the NBA before then it would be pretty remarkable to see the first couple of guys do it. That is how I see some of those early 90s guys (Marciulionis, Vlade, Petrovic).

The question to me is Kukoc also included in that group or he is considered outside that group. I always viewed him as not the same but closely linked to them. So where does that leave Kukoc?

Kukoc was the first Euro I remember being excited about coming over to the NBA. Wondering how good he could be. He was the first guy we really heard about before he came over. Sabonis yeah in the 80s but he didn't come over until 1995 when he was old and battered. Kukoc was the premier star of European basketball and he was the first to come with expectations.

Petrovic was the first star player but that was after a few years of toiling on the end of Portland's bench. Vlade was considered a solid but underachieving soft NBA center (useful but unexceptional) until the mid-90s when he got some more credit for his abilities. Marciulionis was better than Vlade but Sarunas got hurt just as he was breaking out.

This was the state of the Euros when Kukoc arrived in 1993. One starter, two starter quality players. It was the early days. I mean, Petrovic made his first All-NBA team the year before Kukoc arrived. Petrovic was wrongly overlooked for the All-Star game so none of them had made an ASG (neither did Kukoc).

This was still very early on in terms of Euros being (1) accepted as legit NBA level players (2) Valued as key components of teams (3) thirdly sought after in drafts, trades and free agency. It was all a process. Kukoc to me played a big role in that process (even though he was not among the first 3).

It's further important to note that Sarunas, Petrovic and Vlade are all in the Hall.

Yep. All I’m saying is three Euro trailblazers in the HOF is enough, and not a single one them makes the HOF if they’re born in the USA (their youngest years in Europe would have translated to Laettner-esque college ball history). Kukoc is taking this too far, and quite the stretch, particularly when thinking back to how much he was hyped by Krause and Co. Frankly, compared to the Euros before him and the Americans before him, Kukoc has no business being in the HOF. His induction clearly dilutes the significance of the institution. No way this happens if he’s not a white dude who had the good fortune of being MJ’s teammate on the second three-peat. Bet MJ, Pippen and Rodman shake their heads at the idea of Kukoc in the HOF.

Well, those who actually decide these things clearly disagree with you. You are wrong on multiple counts and refuse to see otherwise.

[Who]

Side question but relevant to the question of Kukoc & the rise of the Euros in the NBA

(1) Was Dirk first Euro to make the All-Star Game? In 2000-02 range?
(2) Was Dirk the first Euro lottery pick? 1998 Draft?

Both are important markers for the acceptance of Euros in the NBA and how highly valued Euros were in the NBA. I think the draft pick slots in particular is a good marker. The floodgates really opened after Dirk.

(3) Was Pau Gasol the first top 5 pick? Was that 2001?

We had a few guys make All-Star games over those 2000-2005 years. AK-47 right? Peja. Vlade. Okur might have been later. Then Tony Parker and Ginobili. Ilgauskas.

And of course Bargnani as the first #1 overall pick in 2006. A few other top 5 picks before him in Darko, Tskivilli or however it is that you spell that guy's name.

--------------------------------

It was all a process. The timeline is interesting. Vlade, Sarunas and Petrovic arrived in 1989. Kukoc in 1993. Radja around the same time (also in the HoF).

Vlade taken towards the end of the first round. Kukoc one of the first picks after the first round. Sarunas and Petrovic were late round picks (3rd round, 6th round).

Peja might be the first guy taken in the top 20 in 1996. Dirk at 9 the first in the top 10 in 1998. Pau the first in the top five in 2001.

[chicagoceltic]

Side question but relevant to the question of Kukoc & the rise of the Euros in the NBA

(1) Was Dirk first Euro to make the All-Star Game? In 2000-02 range?
(2) Was Dirk the first Euro lottery pick? 1998 Draft?

Both are important markers for the acceptance of Euros in the NBA and how highly valued Euros were in the NBA. I think the draft pick slots in particular is a good marker. The floodgates really opened after Dirk.

(3) Was Pau Gasol the first top 5 pick? Was that 2001?

We had a few guys make All-Star games over those 2000-2005 years. AK-47 right? Peja. Vlade. Okur might have been later. Then Tony Parker and Ginobili. Ilgauskas.

And of course Bargnani as the first #1 overall pick in 2006. A few other top 5 picks before him in Darko, Tskivilli or however it is that you spell that guy's name.

--------------------------------

It was all a process. The timeline is interesting. Vlade, Sarunas and Petrovic arrived in 1989. Kukoc in 1993. Radja around the same time (also in the HoF).

Vlade taken towards the end of the first round. Kukoc one of the first picks after the first round. Sarunas and Petrovic were late round picks (3rd round, 6th round).

Peja might be the first guy taken in the top 20 in 1996. Dirk at 9 the first in the top 10 in 1998. Pau the first in the top five in 2001.

I think Detlef Schrempf was an all star a handful of years before Dirk.

[Who]

Side question but relevant to the question of Kukoc & the rise of the Euros in the NBA

(1) Was Dirk first Euro to make the All-Star Game? In 2000-02 range?
(2) Was Dirk the first Euro lottery pick? 1998 Draft?

Both are important markers for the acceptance of Euros in the NBA and how highly valued Euros were in the NBA. I think the draft pick slots in particular is a good marker. The floodgates really opened after Dirk.

(3) Was Pau Gasol the first top 5 pick? Was that 2001?

We had a few guys make All-Star games over those 2000-2005 years. AK-47 right? Peja. Vlade. Okur might have been later. Then Tony Parker and Ginobili. Ilgauskas.

And of course Bargnani as the first #1 overall pick in 2006. A few other top 5 picks before him in Darko, Tskivilli or however it is that you spell that guy's name.

--------------------------------

It was all a process. The timeline is interesting. Vlade, Sarunas and Petrovic arrived in 1989. Kukoc in 1993. Radja around the same time (also in the HoF).

Vlade taken towards the end of the first round. Kukoc one of the first picks after the first round. Sarunas and Petrovic were late round picks (3rd round, 6th round).

Peja might be the first guy taken in the top 20 in 1996. Dirk at 9 the first in the top 10 in 1998. Pau the first in the top five in 2001.

I think Detlef Schrempf was an all star a handful of years before Dirk.

Oh yes, he was. Well remembered.

[gouki88]

Side question but relevant to the question of Kukoc & the rise of the Euros in the NBA

(1) Was Dirk first Euro to make the All-Star Game? In 2000-02 range?
(2) Was Dirk the first Euro lottery pick? 1998 Draft?

Both are important markers for the acceptance of Euros in the NBA and how highly valued Euros were in the NBA. I think the draft pick slots in particular is a good marker. The floodgates really opened after Dirk.

(3) Was Pau Gasol the first top 5 pick? Was that 2001?

We had a few guys make All-Star games over those 2000-2005 years. AK-47 right? Peja. Vlade. Okur might have been later. Then Tony Parker and Ginobili. Ilgauskas.

And of course Bargnani as the first #1 overall pick in 2006. A few other top 5 picks before him in Darko, Tskivilli or however it is that you spell that guy's name.

--------------------------------

It was all a process. The timeline is interesting. Vlade, Sarunas and Petrovic arrived in 1989. Kukoc in 1993. Radja around the same time (also in the HoF).

Vlade taken towards the end of the first round. Kukoc one of the first picks after the first round. Sarunas and Petrovic were late round picks (3rd round, 6th round).

Peja might be the first guy taken in the top 20 in 1996. Dirk at 9 the first in the top 10 in 1998. Pau the first in the top five in 2001.

I think Detlef Schrempf was an all star a handful of years before Dirk.

Oh yes, he was. Well remembered.

Petrovic also made the All-NBA team in the same year of Schrempf's first All-Star appearance (but he did not make the A-S team that year), which was, tragically, his last year of playing.

[chicagoceltic]

Side question but relevant to the question of Kukoc & the rise of the Euros in the NBA

(1) Was Dirk first Euro to make the All-Star Game? In 2000-02 range?
(2) Was Dirk the first Euro lottery pick? 1998 Draft?

Both are important markers for the acceptance of Euros in the NBA and how highly valued Euros were in the NBA. I think the draft pick slots in particular is a good marker. The floodgates really opened after Dirk.

(3) Was Pau Gasol the first top 5 pick? Was that 2001?

We had a few guys make All-Star games over those 2000-2005 years. AK-47 right? Peja. Vlade. Okur might have been later. Then Tony Parker and Ginobili. Ilgauskas.

And of course Bargnani as the first #1 overall pick in 2006. A few other top 5 picks before him in Darko, Tskivilli or however it is that you spell that guy's name.

--------------------------------

It was all a process. The timeline is interesting. Vlade, Sarunas and Petrovic arrived in 1989. Kukoc in 1993. Radja around the same time (also in the HoF).

Vlade taken towards the end of the first round. Kukoc one of the first picks after the first round. Sarunas and Petrovic were late round picks (3rd round, 6th round).

Peja might be the first guy taken in the top 20 in 1996. Dirk at 9 the first in the top 10 in 1998. Pau the first in the top five in 2001.

I think Detlef Schrempf was an all star a handful of years before Dirk.

Oh yes, he was. Well remembered.

Petrovic also made the All-NBA team in the same year of Schrempf's first All-Star appearance (but he did not make the A-S team that year), which was, tragically, his last year of playing.

Rik Smitts would have been around that time too.

[GreenlyGreeny]

I'm having trouble seeing how Euro play preceding NBA has all that much to do with selection to the HOF .  If it's a borderline selection or a unique case such as Arvydas Sabonis, but other than that I don't see it. 

On the other hand, I'll defer to anyone who knows more than I do (which is everyone) about the impact any particular Euro/Int has had on basketball from an outside of the USA perspective.  That argument I can't counter. 

But as far as 4 or 5 years of Euro stats and honors -- I can't see that as too much different than a college phenom (back in the 4-year days) going on to have an above average NBA career.   Let's imagine if Larry Bird after his terrific college play at Indiana State (3 years, 30ppg, 13 rpg, 4.6 apg...) went on to have an above average NBA career for 10 years or so (remember, Bird was 23 his rookie year).   Would anyone think he should be in the HOF?  In fact, most people would have probably considered him a bust.

I don't think Euro play preceding the NBA has much impact now in the same way that NCAA play does not have much impact. It is only for the first few guys who made the transition.

Think of it from another angle. If nobody from the NCAA had ever made it to the NBA before then it would be pretty remarkable to see the first couple of guys do it. That is how I see some of those early 90s guys (Marciulionis, Vlade, Petrovic).

The question to me is Kukoc also included in that group or he is considered outside that group. I always viewed him as not the same but closely linked to them. So where does that leave Kukoc?

Kukoc was the first Euro I remember being excited about coming over to the NBA. Wondering how good he could be. He was the first guy we really heard about before he came over. Sabonis yeah in the 80s but he didn't come over until 1995 when he was old and battered. Kukoc was the premier star of European basketball and he was the first to come with expectations.

Petrovic was the first star player but that was after a few years of toiling on the end of Portland's bench. Vlade was considered a solid but underachieving soft NBA center (useful but unexceptional) until the mid-90s when he got some more credit for his abilities. Marciulionis was better than Vlade but Sarunas got hurt just as he was breaking out.

This was the state of the Euros when Kukoc arrived in 1993. One starter, two starter quality players. It was the early days. I mean, Petrovic made his first All-NBA team the year before Kukoc arrived. Petrovic was wrongly overlooked for the All-Star game so none of them had made an ASG (neither did Kukoc).

This was still very early on in terms of Euros being (1) accepted as legit NBA level players (2) Valued as key components of teams (3) thirdly sought after in drafts, trades and free agency. It was all a process. Kukoc to me played a big role in that process (even though he was not among the first 3).

It's further important to note that Sarunas, Petrovic and Vlade are all in the Hall.

Yep. All I’m saying is three Euro trailblazers in the HOF is enough, and not a single one them makes the HOF if they’re born in the USA (their youngest years in Europe would have translated to Laettner-esque college ball history). Kukoc is taking this too far, and quite the stretch, particularly when thinking back to how much he was hyped by Krause and Co. Frankly, compared to the Euros before him and the Americans before him, Kukoc has no business being in the HOF. His induction clearly dilutes the significance of the institution. No way this happens if he’s not a white dude who had the good fortune of being MJ’s teammate on the second three-peat. Bet MJ, Pippen and Rodman shake their heads at the idea of Kukoc in the HOF.

MJ and Reinsdorf are presenting Kucoc at the Hall of Fame and Pippen tweeted out that it was "about time..." so you may not want to bet too much.

https://larrybrownsports.com/basketball/toni-kukoc-michael-jordan-jerry-reinsdorf-hall-of-fame-co-presenters/582505#:~:text=Michael%20Jordan%20will%20be%20making%20an%20appearance%20on,Bulls%20owner%20Jerry%20Reinsdorf%20to%20be%20his%20co-presenters.


https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/bulls-toni-kukoc-selected-hall-fame-class-2021

Rodman keeps it real.

[GreenlyGreeny]

So if say Marcus Smart had spent his teens and early 20s in two Euro leagues dominating the competition with 20+ PPG and then spent seven seasons with the Celtics averaging 14.1 points, 4.8 rebounds and 4.2 assists, that would make him a HOFer? I love Marcus, but no way is he a HOFer simply because he’s capable of being dominant in Europe (like so many other borderline NBA all-stars/all-defenders).

Is Marcus Smart paving the way for future generations to do what was previously unthinkable? No, because he'd be just another American basketballer lighting it up in Europe (which, frankly, I don't think he would given how hard it is to score in top Euro leagues). Kukoc was also massively important in Olympic basketball and Yugoslav basketball with Petrovic and Radja

Huh? Rik Smits was a second overall pick in the 1980s, long before Kukoc. Detlef Schrempf was a lottery pick before both Rik and Vlade, if memory serves. Why are they not in the basketball HOF for being the real Euro trailblazers? Thought that Euro trailblazer argument is one of the reasons why Vlade is in the HOF, anyway? That was a somewhat questionable selection, but now Toni two years later is just making the basketball HOF a joke, frankly (at least Vlade had been an NBA all-star who almost averaged a double-double with 1.4 BPG)…

Detlef Schrempf went to high school in Washington, and Rik Smits played college ball in the US. Neither had any real impact on European basketball because they didn't play European basketball. I feel like if you're asking that question you are showing your ignorance of Euro. You've even said you don't watch college ball or Euro ball. This is the basketball hall of fame, not the NBA hall of fame. Once you get your head around that concept it's pretty easy to see why these players make it.

I’ve already acknowledged that with my props to Arvydas Sabonis. In contrast to Arvydas, Toni’s prime years were in the NBA and the numbers simply do not cut it. Vlade has Toni beat as the Euro trailblazer, too (diminishing the basketball HOF with these Euro trailblazer arguments is unbecoming…).

Prior to the one-and-done era, college ball was definitely far more competitive than Euro ball, but we don’t see Christian Laettner (arguably the greatest college basketball player of all-time) in the basketball HOF, do we?

You lost me here. Does anyone really argue that Laettner was the greatest college basketball player of all time?

Most people have Kareem, Oscar, Maravich, and Walton in their top 4 (Kareem is generally 1 and then it varies), but Laettner is as high as 5 on a bunch of lists and is basically in everyone's top 10.  He did hit the most iconic shot in the sports history and in his 4 years played in 23 NCAA tournament games (the max he could have played was 24) and he played a lot more recently than the guys ahead of him (making it a harder feat).  Duke also took a pretty massive step back when he graduated going from 34-2 and the national title to 24-8 (3rd in ACC) and losing in the 2nd round the next year (and that team still had Grant Hill, Bobby Hurley, Cherokee Parks, and Antonio Lang).

Another thing to consider: Given the prevalence of one-and-done, it’s almost certainly going to be the case for time immemorial that Laettner is the greatest college basketball player in the history of college ball with a three point line (i.e., best player after 1986). His performance as a young adult is just as impressive as the young adult accomplishments of these aforementioned Euros, it not more so. None accomplished elite results in the elite league of the NBA, though.

Frankly, Sabonis is the first Euro worthy of the basketball HOF strictly on talent alone. Dirk is probably the second. Had either one been born in the USA, they’d be HOFers on the first ballot. Not true of these other Euros, but especially Kukoc. 

[gouki88]

Side question but relevant to the question of Kukoc & the rise of the Euros in the NBA

(1) Was Dirk first Euro to make the All-Star Game? In 2000-02 range?
(2) Was Dirk the first Euro lottery pick? 1998 Draft?

Both are important markers for the acceptance of Euros in the NBA and how highly valued Euros were in the NBA. I think the draft pick slots in particular is a good marker. The floodgates really opened after Dirk.

(3) Was Pau Gasol the first top 5 pick? Was that 2001?

We had a few guys make All-Star games over those 2000-2005 years. AK-47 right? Peja. Vlade. Okur might have been later. Then Tony Parker and Ginobili. Ilgauskas.

And of course Bargnani as the first #1 overall pick in 2006. A few other top 5 picks before him in Darko, Tskivilli or however it is that you spell that guy's name.

--------------------------------

It was all a process. The timeline is interesting. Vlade, Sarunas and Petrovic arrived in 1989. Kukoc in 1993. Radja around the same time (also in the HoF).

Vlade taken towards the end of the first round. Kukoc one of the first picks after the first round. Sarunas and Petrovic were late round picks (3rd round, 6th round).

Peja might be the first guy taken in the top 20 in 1996. Dirk at 9 the first in the top 10 in 1998. Pau the first in the top five in 2001.

I think Detlef Schrempf was an all star a handful of years before Dirk.

Oh yes, he was. Well remembered.

Petrovic also made the All-NBA team in the same year of Schrempf's first All-Star appearance (but he did not make the A-S team that year), which was, tragically, his last year of playing.

Rik Smitts would have been around that time too.

He didn't make the All-Star game until the tail-end of his career (1998), but it was odd because his play had made no real improvement

[GreenlyGreeny]

I'm having trouble seeing how Euro play preceding NBA has all that much to do with selection to the HOF .  If it's a borderline selection or a unique case such as Arvydas Sabonis, but other than that I don't see it. 

On the other hand, I'll defer to anyone who knows more than I do (which is everyone) about the impact any particular Euro/Int has had on basketball from an outside of the USA perspective.  That argument I can't counter. 

But as far as 4 or 5 years of Euro stats and honors -- I can't see that as too much different than a college phenom (back in the 4-year days) going on to have an above average NBA career.   Let's imagine if Larry Bird after his terrific college play at Indiana State (3 years, 30ppg, 13 rpg, 4.6 apg...) went on to have an above average NBA career for 10 years or so (remember, Bird was 23 his rookie year).   Would anyone think he should be in the HOF?  In fact, most people would have probably considered him a bust.

I don't think Euro play preceding the NBA has much impact now in the same way that NCAA play does not have much impact. It is only for the first few guys who made the transition.

Think of it from another angle. If nobody from the NCAA had ever made it to the NBA before then it would be pretty remarkable to see the first couple of guys do it. That is how I see some of those early 90s guys (Marciulionis, Vlade, Petrovic).

The question to me is Kukoc also included in that group or he is considered outside that group. I always viewed him as not the same but closely linked to them. So where does that leave Kukoc?

Kukoc was the first Euro I remember being excited about coming over to the NBA. Wondering how good he could be. He was the first guy we really heard about before he came over. Sabonis yeah in the 80s but he didn't come over until 1995 when he was old and battered. Kukoc was the premier star of European basketball and he was the first to come with expectations.

Petrovic was the first star player but that was after a few years of toiling on the end of Portland's bench. Vlade was considered a solid but underachieving soft NBA center (useful but unexceptional) until the mid-90s when he got some more credit for his abilities. Marciulionis was better than Vlade but Sarunas got hurt just as he was breaking out.

This was the state of the Euros when Kukoc arrived in 1993. One starter, two starter quality players. It was the early days. I mean, Petrovic made his first All-NBA team the year before Kukoc arrived. Petrovic was wrongly overlooked for the All-Star game so none of them had made an ASG (neither did Kukoc).

This was still very early on in terms of Euros being (1) accepted as legit NBA level players (2) Valued as key components of teams (3) thirdly sought after in drafts, trades and free agency. It was all a process. Kukoc to me played a big role in that process (even though he was not among the first 3).

It's further important to note that Sarunas, Petrovic and Vlade are all in the Hall.

Yep. All I’m saying is three Euro trailblazers in the HOF is enough, and not a single one them makes the HOF if they’re born in the USA (their youngest years in Europe would have translated to Laettner-esque college ball history). Kukoc is taking this too far, and quite the stretch, particularly when thinking back to how much he was hyped by Krause and Co. Frankly, compared to the Euros before him and the Americans before him, Kukoc has no business being in the HOF. His induction clearly dilutes the significance of the institution. No way this happens if he’s not a white dude who had the good fortune of being MJ’s teammate on the second three-peat. Bet MJ, Pippen and Rodman shake their heads at the idea of Kukoc in the HOF.

Well, those who actually decide these things clearly disagree with you. You are wrong on multiple counts and refuse to see otherwise.

Well, 2/3rds of the poll-takers in here think Kukoc does not belong. You could poll 10,000 NBA fans who have watched the game the past 30 years, and bet 3/4ths to 4/5ths would say, “what are you smoking?”

[gouki88]

So if say Marcus Smart had spent his teens and early 20s in two Euro leagues dominating the competition with 20+ PPG and then spent seven seasons with the Celtics averaging 14.1 points, 4.8 rebounds and 4.2 assists, that would make him a HOFer? I love Marcus, but no way is he a HOFer simply because he’s capable of being dominant in Europe (like so many other borderline NBA all-stars/all-defenders).

Is Marcus Smart paving the way for future generations to do what was previously unthinkable? No, because he'd be just another American basketballer lighting it up in Europe (which, frankly, I don't think he would given how hard it is to score in top Euro leagues). Kukoc was also massively important in Olympic basketball and Yugoslav basketball with Petrovic and Radja

Huh? Rik Smits was a second overall pick in the 1980s, long before Kukoc. Detlef Schrempf was a lottery pick before both Rik and Vlade, if memory serves. Why are they not in the basketball HOF for being the real Euro trailblazers? Thought that Euro trailblazer argument is one of the reasons why Vlade is in the HOF, anyway? That was a somewhat questionable selection, but now Toni two years later is just making the basketball HOF a joke, frankly (at least Vlade had been an NBA all-star who almost averaged a double-double with 1.4 BPG)…

Detlef Schrempf went to high school in Washington, and Rik Smits played college ball in the US. Neither had any real impact on European basketball because they didn't play European basketball. I feel like if you're asking that question you are showing your ignorance of Euro. You've even said you don't watch college ball or Euro ball. This is the basketball hall of fame, not the NBA hall of fame. Once you get your head around that concept it's pretty easy to see why these players make it.

I’ve already acknowledged that with my props to Arvydas Sabonis. In contrast to Arvydas, Toni’s prime years were in the NBA and the numbers simply do not cut it. Vlade has Toni beat as the Euro trailblazer, too (diminishing the basketball HOF with these Euro trailblazer arguments is unbecoming…).

Prior to the one-and-done era, college ball was definitely far more competitive than Euro ball, but we don’t see Christian Laettner (arguably the greatest college basketball player of all-time) in the basketball HOF, do we?

You lost me here. Does anyone really argue that Laettner was the greatest college basketball player of all time?

Most people have Kareem, Oscar, Maravich, and Walton in their top 4 (Kareem is generally 1 and then it varies), but Laettner is as high as 5 on a bunch of lists and is basically in everyone's top 10.  He did hit the most iconic shot in the sports history and in his 4 years played in 23 NCAA tournament games (the max he could have played was 24) and he played a lot more recently than the guys ahead of him (making it a harder feat).  Duke also took a pretty massive step back when he graduated going from 34-2 and the national title to 24-8 (3rd in ACC) and losing in the 2nd round the next year (and that team still had Grant Hill, Bobby Hurley, Cherokee Parks, and Antonio Lang).

Another thing to consider: Given the prevalence of one-and-done, it’s almost certainly going to be the case for time immemorial that Laettner is the greatest college basketball player in the history of college ball with a three point line (i.e., best player after 1986). His performance as a young adult is just as impressive as the young adult accomplishments of these aforementioned Euros, it not more so. None accomplished elite results in the elite league of the NBA, though.

Frankly, Sabonis is the first Euro worthy of the basketball HOF strictly on talent alone. Dirk is probably the second. Had either one been born in the USA, they’d be HOFers on the first ballot. Not true of these other Euros, but especially Kukoc.

You don't think Petrovic makes the Hall of Fame on talent alone, and wouldn't have made it if born & raised in the US? That is by far the most outrageous thing you've said in this thread so far. He was an All-NBA calibre guard and is still regarded as one of the best all-round shooters ever to play.

[gouki88]

I'm having trouble seeing how Euro play preceding NBA has all that much to do with selection to the HOF .  If it's a borderline selection or a unique case such as Arvydas Sabonis, but other than that I don't see it. 

On the other hand, I'll defer to anyone who knows more than I do (which is everyone) about the impact any particular Euro/Int has had on basketball from an outside of the USA perspective.  That argument I can't counter. 

But as far as 4 or 5 years of Euro stats and honors -- I can't see that as too much different than a college phenom (back in the 4-year days) going on to have an above average NBA career.   Let's imagine if Larry Bird after his terrific college play at Indiana State (3 years, 30ppg, 13 rpg, 4.6 apg...) went on to have an above average NBA career for 10 years or so (remember, Bird was 23 his rookie year).   Would anyone think he should be in the HOF?  In fact, most people would have probably considered him a bust.

I don't think Euro play preceding the NBA has much impact now in the same way that NCAA play does not have much impact. It is only for the first few guys who made the transition.

Think of it from another angle. If nobody from the NCAA had ever made it to the NBA before then it would be pretty remarkable to see the first couple of guys do it. That is how I see some of those early 90s guys (Marciulionis, Vlade, Petrovic).

The question to me is Kukoc also included in that group or he is considered outside that group. I always viewed him as not the same but closely linked to them. So where does that leave Kukoc?

Kukoc was the first Euro I remember being excited about coming over to the NBA. Wondering how good he could be. He was the first guy we really heard about before he came over. Sabonis yeah in the 80s but he didn't come over until 1995 when he was old and battered. Kukoc was the premier star of European basketball and he was the first to come with expectations.

Petrovic was the first star player but that was after a few years of toiling on the end of Portland's bench. Vlade was considered a solid but underachieving soft NBA center (useful but unexceptional) until the mid-90s when he got some more credit for his abilities. Marciulionis was better than Vlade but Sarunas got hurt just as he was breaking out.

This was the state of the Euros when Kukoc arrived in 1993. One starter, two starter quality players. It was the early days. I mean, Petrovic made his first All-NBA team the year before Kukoc arrived. Petrovic was wrongly overlooked for the All-Star game so none of them had made an ASG (neither did Kukoc).

This was still very early on in terms of Euros being (1) accepted as legit NBA level players (2) Valued as key components of teams (3) thirdly sought after in drafts, trades and free agency. It was all a process. Kukoc to me played a big role in that process (even though he was not among the first 3).

It's further important to note that Sarunas, Petrovic and Vlade are all in the Hall.

Yep. All I’m saying is three Euro trailblazers in the HOF is enough, and not a single one them makes the HOF if they’re born in the USA (their youngest years in Europe would have translated to Laettner-esque college ball history). Kukoc is taking this too far, and quite the stretch, particularly when thinking back to how much he was hyped by Krause and Co. Frankly, compared to the Euros before him and the Americans before him, Kukoc has no business being in the HOF. His induction clearly dilutes the significance of the institution. No way this happens if he’s not a white dude who had the good fortune of being MJ’s teammate on the second three-peat. Bet MJ, Pippen and Rodman shake their heads at the idea of Kukoc in the HOF.

Well, those who actually decide these things clearly disagree with you. You are wrong on multiple counts and refuse to see otherwise.

Well, 2/3rds of the poll-takers in here think Kukoc does not belong. You could poll 10,000 NBA fans who have watched the game the past 30 years, and bet 3/4ths to 4/5ths would say, “what are you smoking?”

Good for them. If they don't know the qualifying criteria for the Hall of Fame and aren't aware of the precedent that suggests Kukoc should be in the Hall, they should do more research.

If your problem is with the Hall criteria itself, then say that.