Should Toni Kukoč Be In the Hall of Fame?

[Kernewek]

How does it go? “Tell me you don’t watch European basketball without telling me you don’t watch European basketball.”?

A better example  to use, Greenly, is probably Ricky Rubio. That’s an interesting discussion.

[GreenlyGreeny]

So if say Marcus Smart had spent his teens and early 20s in two Euro leagues dominating the competition with 20+ PPG and then spent seven seasons with the Celtics averaging 14.1 points, 4.8 rebounds and 4.2 assists, that would make him a HOFer? I love Marcus, but no way is he a HOFer simply because he’s capable of being dominant in Europe (like so many other borderline NBA all-stars/all-defenders).

Is Marcus Smart paving the way for future generations to do what was previously unthinkable? No, because he'd be just another American basketballer lighting it up in Europe (which, frankly, I don't think he would given how hard it is to score in top Euro leagues). Kukoc was also massively important in Olympic basketball and Yugoslav basketball with Petrovic and Radja

Huh? Rik Smits was a second overall pick in the 1980s, long before Kukoc. Detlef Schrempf was a lottery pick before both Rik and Vlade, if memory serves. Why are they not in the basketball HOF for being the real Euro trailblazers? Thought that Euro trailblazer argument is one of the reasons why Vlade is in the HOF, anyway? That was a somewhat questionable selection, but now Toni two years later is just making the basketball HOF a joke, frankly (at least Vlade had been an NBA all-star who almost averaged a double-double with 1.4 BPG)…

[GreenlyGreeny]

How does it go? “Tell me you don’t watch European basketball without telling me you don’t watch European basketball.”?

A better example  to use, Greenly, is probably Ricky Rubio. That’s an interesting discussion.

Only so much time in the day, so I will admit I only watch NBA (not even college ball, let alone Euro ball, although I watch highlights of both). I spend my limited basketball time watching the best and the best simply go where the most money is (Arvydas Sabonis being deprived that opportunity when he was the best at his position in the world, which inarguably he was in the mid/late 1980s, so I’ll give props to Euros where it is due…Toni is not due this accolade IMHO).

[gouki88]

So if say Marcus Smart had spent his teens and early 20s in two Euro leagues dominating the competition with 20+ PPG and then spent seven seasons with the Celtics averaging 14.1 points, 4.8 rebounds and 4.2 assists, that would make him a HOFer? I love Marcus, but no way is he a HOFer simply because he’s capable of being dominant in Europe (like so many other borderline NBA all-stars/all-defenders).

Is Marcus Smart paving the way for future generations to do what was previously unthinkable? No, because he'd be just another American basketballer lighting it up in Europe (which, frankly, I don't think he would given how hard it is to score in top Euro leagues). Kukoc was also massively important in Olympic basketball and Yugoslav basketball with Petrovic and Radja

Huh? Rik Smits was a second overall pick in the 1980s, long before Kukoc. Detlef Schrempf was a lottery pick before both Rik and Vlade, if memory serves. Why are they not in the basketball HOF for being the real Euro trailblazers? Thought that Euro trailblazer argument is one of the reasons why Vlade is in the HOF, anyway? That was a somewhat questionable selection, but now Toni two years later is just making the basketball HOF a joke, frankly (at least Vlade had been an NBA all-star who almost averaged a double-double with 1.4 BPG)…

Detlef Schrempf went to high school in Washington, and Rik Smits played college ball in the US. Neither had any real impact on European basketball because they didn't play European basketball. I feel like if you're asking that question you are showing your ignorance of Euro. You've even said you don't watch college ball or Euro ball. This is the basketball hall of fame, not the NBA hall of fame. Once you get your head around that concept it's pretty easy to see why these players make it.

[GreenlyGreeny]

So if say Marcus Smart had spent his teens and early 20s in two Euro leagues dominating the competition with 20+ PPG and then spent seven seasons with the Celtics averaging 14.1 points, 4.8 rebounds and 4.2 assists, that would make him a HOFer? I love Marcus, but no way is he a HOFer simply because he’s capable of being dominant in Europe (like so many other borderline NBA all-stars/all-defenders).

Is Marcus Smart paving the way for future generations to do what was previously unthinkable? No, because he'd be just another American basketballer lighting it up in Europe (which, frankly, I don't think he would given how hard it is to score in top Euro leagues). Kukoc was also massively important in Olympic basketball and Yugoslav basketball with Petrovic and Radja

Huh? Rik Smits was a second overall pick in the 1980s, long before Kukoc. Detlef Schrempf was a lottery pick before both Rik and Vlade, if memory serves. Why are they not in the basketball HOF for being the real Euro trailblazers? Thought that Euro trailblazer argument is one of the reasons why Vlade is in the HOF, anyway? That was a somewhat questionable selection, but now Toni two years later is just making the basketball HOF a joke, frankly (at least Vlade had been an NBA all-star who almost averaged a double-double with 1.4 BPG)…

Detlef Schrempf went to high school in Washington, and Rik Smits played college ball in the US. Neither had any real impact on European basketball because they didn't play European basketball. I feel like if you're asking that question you are showing your ignorance of Euro. You've even said you don't watch college ball or Euro ball. This is the basketball hall of fame, not the NBA hall of fame. Once you get your head around that concept it's pretty easy to see why these players make it.

I’ve already acknowledged that with my props to Arvydas Sabonis. In contrast to Arvydas, Toni’s prime years were in the NBA and the numbers simply do not cut it. Vlade has Toni beat as the Euro trailblazer, too (diminishing the basketball HOF with these Euro trailblazer arguments is unbecoming…).

Prior to the one-and-done era, college ball was definitely far more competitive than Euro ball, but we don’t see Christian Laettner (arguably the greatest college basketball player of all-time) in the basketball HOF, do we?

[gouki88]

So if say Marcus Smart had spent his teens and early 20s in two Euro leagues dominating the competition with 20+ PPG and then spent seven seasons with the Celtics averaging 14.1 points, 4.8 rebounds and 4.2 assists, that would make him a HOFer? I love Marcus, but no way is he a HOFer simply because he’s capable of being dominant in Europe (like so many other borderline NBA all-stars/all-defenders).

Is Marcus Smart paving the way for future generations to do what was previously unthinkable? No, because he'd be just another American basketballer lighting it up in Europe (which, frankly, I don't think he would given how hard it is to score in top Euro leagues). Kukoc was also massively important in Olympic basketball and Yugoslav basketball with Petrovic and Radja

Huh? Rik Smits was a second overall pick in the 1980s, long before Kukoc. Detlef Schrempf was a lottery pick before both Rik and Vlade, if memory serves. Why are they not in the basketball HOF for being the real Euro trailblazers? Thought that Euro trailblazer argument is one of the reasons why Vlade is in the HOF, anyway? That was a somewhat questionable selection, but now Toni two years later is just making the basketball HOF a joke, frankly (at least Vlade had been an NBA all-star who almost averaged a double-double with 1.4 BPG)…

Detlef Schrempf went to high school in Washington, and Rik Smits played college ball in the US. Neither had any real impact on European basketball because they didn't play European basketball. I feel like if you're asking that question you are showing your ignorance of Euro. You've even said you don't watch college ball or Euro ball. This is the basketball hall of fame, not the NBA hall of fame. Once you get your head around that concept it's pretty easy to see why these players make it.

I’ve already acknowledged that with my props to Arvydas Sabonis. In contrast to Arvydas, Toni’s prime years were in the NBA and the numbers simply do not cut it. Vlade has Toni beat as the Euro trailblazer. Prior to the one-and-done era, college ball was far more competitive than Euro ball, but we don’t see Christian Laettner (arguably the greatest college basketball player of all-time) in the basketball HOF, do we?

Again, insisting on "numbers" is where you're going wrong. Kukoc's impact went beyond numbers. Just like Manu Ginobili.

Christian Laettner was a great college player. But he made little contribution to the game of basketball.

[GreenlyGreeny]

So if say Marcus Smart had spent his teens and early 20s in two Euro leagues dominating the competition with 20+ PPG and then spent seven seasons with the Celtics averaging 14.1 points, 4.8 rebounds and 4.2 assists, that would make him a HOFer? I love Marcus, but no way is he a HOFer simply because he’s capable of being dominant in Europe (like so many other borderline NBA all-stars/all-defenders).

Is Marcus Smart paving the way for future generations to do what was previously unthinkable? No, because he'd be just another American basketballer lighting it up in Europe (which, frankly, I don't think he would given how hard it is to score in top Euro leagues). Kukoc was also massively important in Olympic basketball and Yugoslav basketball with Petrovic and Radja

Huh? Rik Smits was a second overall pick in the 1980s, long before Kukoc. Detlef Schrempf was a lottery pick before both Rik and Vlade, if memory serves. Why are they not in the basketball HOF for being the real Euro trailblazers? Thought that Euro trailblazer argument is one of the reasons why Vlade is in the HOF, anyway? That was a somewhat questionable selection, but now Toni two years later is just making the basketball HOF a joke, frankly (at least Vlade had been an NBA all-star who almost averaged a double-double with 1.4 BPG)…

Detlef Schrempf went to high school in Washington, and Rik Smits played college ball in the US. Neither had any real impact on European basketball because they didn't play European basketball. I feel like if you're asking that question you are showing your ignorance of Euro. You've even said you don't watch college ball or Euro ball. This is the basketball hall of fame, not the NBA hall of fame. Once you get your head around that concept it's pretty easy to see why these players make it.

I’ve already acknowledged that with my props to Arvydas Sabonis. In contrast to Arvydas, Toni’s prime years were in the NBA and the numbers simply do not cut it. Vlade has Toni beat as the Euro trailblazer. Prior to the one-and-done era, college ball was far more competitive than Euro ball, but we don’t see Christian Laettner (arguably the greatest college basketball player of all-time) in the basketball HOF, do we?

Again, insisting on "numbers" is where you're going wrong. Kukoc's impact went beyond numbers. Just like Manu Ginobili.

Christian Laettner was a great college player. But he made little contribution to the game of basketball.

I’m not a Dukie, but Laettner is responsible for one of the most repeated highlights in basketball history? In addition, he was the 15th man and only amateur on the 1992 Dream Team. Both of these accomplishments are not HOF worthy, but certainly surpass Toni’s contributions to the game of basketball (again, Vlade already paved the way for Euros years before Toni came into the league).

[GreenlyGreeny]

So if say Marcus Smart had spent his teens and early 20s in two Euro leagues dominating the competition with 20+ PPG and then spent seven seasons with the Celtics averaging 14.1 points, 4.8 rebounds and 4.2 assists, that would make him a HOFer? I love Marcus, but no way is he a HOFer simply because he’s capable of being dominant in Europe (like so many other borderline NBA all-stars/all-defenders).

Is Marcus Smart paving the way for future generations to do what was previously unthinkable? No, because he'd be just another American basketballer lighting it up in Europe (which, frankly, I don't think he would given how hard it is to score in top Euro leagues). Kukoc was also massively important in Olympic basketball and Yugoslav basketball with Petrovic and Radja

Huh? Rik Smits was a second overall pick in the 1980s, long before Kukoc. Detlef Schrempf was a lottery pick before both Rik and Vlade, if memory serves. Why are they not in the basketball HOF for being the real Euro trailblazers? Thought that Euro trailblazer argument is one of the reasons why Vlade is in the HOF, anyway? That was a somewhat questionable selection, but now Toni two years later is just making the basketball HOF a joke, frankly (at least Vlade had been an NBA all-star who almost averaged a double-double with 1.4 BPG)…

Detlef Schrempf went to high school in Washington, and Rik Smits played college ball in the US. Neither had any real impact on European basketball because they didn't play European basketball. I feel like if you're asking that question you are showing your ignorance of Euro. You've even said you don't watch college ball or Euro ball. This is the basketball hall of fame, not the NBA hall of fame. Once you get your head around that concept it's pretty easy to see why these players make it.

I’ve already acknowledged that with my props to Arvydas Sabonis. In contrast to Arvydas, Toni’s prime years were in the NBA and the numbers simply do not cut it. Vlade has Toni beat as the Euro trailblazer. Prior to the one-and-done era, college ball was far more competitive than Euro ball, but we don’t see Christian Laettner (arguably the greatest college basketball player of all-time) in the basketball HOF, do we?

Again, insisting on "numbers" is where you're going wrong. Kukoc's impact went beyond numbers. Just like Manu Ginobili.

Christian Laettner was a great college player. But he made little contribution to the game of basketball.

I’m not a Dukie, but Laettner and Hill are responsible for one of the most repeated highlights in basketball history? In addition, he was the 15th man and only amateur on the 1992 Dream Team. Both of these accomplishments are not HOF worthy, but certainly surpass Toni’s contributions to the game of basketball (again, Vlade already paved the way for Euros years before Toni came into the league).

[gouki88]

So if say Marcus Smart had spent his teens and early 20s in two Euro leagues dominating the competition with 20+ PPG and then spent seven seasons with the Celtics averaging 14.1 points, 4.8 rebounds and 4.2 assists, that would make him a HOFer? I love Marcus, but no way is he a HOFer simply because he’s capable of being dominant in Europe (like so many other borderline NBA all-stars/all-defenders).

Is Marcus Smart paving the way for future generations to do what was previously unthinkable? No, because he'd be just another American basketballer lighting it up in Europe (which, frankly, I don't think he would given how hard it is to score in top Euro leagues). Kukoc was also massively important in Olympic basketball and Yugoslav basketball with Petrovic and Radja

Huh? Rik Smits was a second overall pick in the 1980s, long before Kukoc. Detlef Schrempf was a lottery pick before both Rik and Vlade, if memory serves. Why are they not in the basketball HOF for being the real Euro trailblazers? Thought that Euro trailblazer argument is one of the reasons why Vlade is in the HOF, anyway? That was a somewhat questionable selection, but now Toni two years later is just making the basketball HOF a joke, frankly (at least Vlade had been an NBA all-star who almost averaged a double-double with 1.4 BPG)…

Detlef Schrempf went to high school in Washington, and Rik Smits played college ball in the US. Neither had any real impact on European basketball because they didn't play European basketball. I feel like if you're asking that question you are showing your ignorance of Euro. You've even said you don't watch college ball or Euro ball. This is the basketball hall of fame, not the NBA hall of fame. Once you get your head around that concept it's pretty easy to see why these players make it.

I’ve already acknowledged that with my props to Arvydas Sabonis. In contrast to Arvydas, Toni’s prime years were in the NBA and the numbers simply do not cut it. Vlade has Toni beat as the Euro trailblazer. Prior to the one-and-done era, college ball was far more competitive than Euro ball, but we don’t see Christian Laettner (arguably the greatest college basketball player of all-time) in the basketball HOF, do we?

Again, insisting on "numbers" is where you're going wrong. Kukoc's impact went beyond numbers. Just like Manu Ginobili.

Christian Laettner was a great college player. But he made little contribution to the game of basketball.

I’m not a Dukie, but Laettner is responsible for one of the most repeated highlights in basketball history? In addition, he was the 15th man and only amateur on the 1992 Dream Team. Both of these accomplishments are not HOF worthy, but certainly surpass Toni’s contributions to the game of basketball (again, Vlade already paved the way for Euros years before Toni came into the league).

Sigh. No, they do not. If you think a highlight is worth more than the Yugoslav basketballers paving the way for Jokic, Doncic and the dozen or so other players from what was Yugoslavia then I don't have much more to say to you.

I find it quite funny that you create a thread to ask a question, and imply that you're willing to listen to other perspectives, yet you stubbornly cling to your US-centric bias for dear life.

[nickagneta]

Does Ricky Rubio fall into the same boat as Kukoc? Is Rubio a HOFer?

[GreenlyGreeny]

So if say Marcus Smart had spent his teens and early 20s in two Euro leagues dominating the competition with 20+ PPG and then spent seven seasons with the Celtics averaging 14.1 points, 4.8 rebounds and 4.2 assists, that would make him a HOFer? I love Marcus, but no way is he a HOFer simply because he’s capable of being dominant in Europe (like so many other borderline NBA all-stars/all-defenders).

Is Marcus Smart paving the way for future generations to do what was previously unthinkable? No, because he'd be just another American basketballer lighting it up in Europe (which, frankly, I don't think he would given how hard it is to score in top Euro leagues). Kukoc was also massively important in Olympic basketball and Yugoslav basketball with Petrovic and Radja

Huh? Rik Smits was a second overall pick in the 1980s, long before Kukoc. Detlef Schrempf was a lottery pick before both Rik and Vlade, if memory serves. Why are they not in the basketball HOF for being the real Euro trailblazers? Thought that Euro trailblazer argument is one of the reasons why Vlade is in the HOF, anyway? That was a somewhat questionable selection, but now Toni two years later is just making the basketball HOF a joke, frankly (at least Vlade had been an NBA all-star who almost averaged a double-double with 1.4 BPG)…

Detlef Schrempf went to high school in Washington, and Rik Smits played college ball in the US. Neither had any real impact on European basketball because they didn't play European basketball. I feel like if you're asking that question you are showing your ignorance of Euro. You've even said you don't watch college ball or Euro ball. This is the basketball hall of fame, not the NBA hall of fame. Once you get your head around that concept it's pretty easy to see why these players make it.

I’ve already acknowledged that with my props to Arvydas Sabonis. In contrast to Arvydas, Toni’s prime years were in the NBA and the numbers simply do not cut it. Vlade has Toni beat as the Euro trailblazer. Prior to the one-and-done era, college ball was far more competitive than Euro ball, but we don’t see Christian Laettner (arguably the greatest college basketball player of all-time) in the basketball HOF, do we?

Again, insisting on "numbers" is where you're going wrong. Kukoc's impact went beyond numbers. Just like Manu Ginobili.

Christian Laettner was a great college player. But he made little contribution to the game of basketball.

I’m not a Dukie, but Laettner is responsible for one of the most repeated highlights in basketball history? In addition, he was the 15th man and only amateur on the 1992 Dream Team. Both of these accomplishments are not HOF worthy, but certainly surpass Toni’s contributions to the game of basketball (again, Vlade already paved the way for Euros years before Toni came into the league).

Sigh. No, they do not. If you think a highlight is worth more than the Yugoslav basketballers paving the way for Jokic, Doncic and the dozen or so other players from what was Yugoslavia then I don't have much more to say to you.

I’ve already acknowledged how Vlade Divac paved the way for Jokic, Doncic and other talented players from what was Yugoslavia. And he did so years before Toni Kukoc joined the NBA…and now I’m going to acknowledge another HOFer I’ve neglected to bring up so far: Petrovic. Two Euro trailblazers who precede Toni…

I find it quite funny that you create a thread to ask a question, and imply that you're willing to listen to other perspectives, yet you stubbornly cling to your US-centric bias for dear life.

I’ve given props to the Soviet who humiliated the USA and national hero David Robinson in 1988, so how is there a US-centric bias at play here? Perhaps you’re clinging to your own bias for dear life?

[Kernewek]

Most hated NCAA basketball player of all time, certainly.

Christian Laetner was, more or less, a disappointment in the NBA, especially relative to his draft position and reputation. If you look at his resume, really, he’s like a very low-budget Carmelo Anthony that people liked less.

I don’t understand why you’re hitching yourself to this wagon. 

[Moranis]

Petrovic came over before Kukoc and like Toni was 25 as a rookie, unlike Toni though Drazen was a multiple time 20 ppg scorer and would have had many more such seasons if he hadn't tragically died.  He also was All NBA 3rd team that last season with solid advanced metrics.  And I know he is in the HOF, but he was the real trailblazer. He was the guy that showed Europeans could come over and succeed.  No one else should be able to make the trailblazer claim except maybe Vlade who also entered the NBA in 90.

[GreenlyGreeny]

Does Ricky Rubio fall into the same boat as Kukoc? Is Rubio a HOFer?

💯 because he’s paved the way for future Spaniards. You can ignore Pau Gasol and give that credit to Rubio instead, ok? Otherwise you’re displaying “US-centric bias.”

[GreenlyGreeny]

Most hated NCAA basketball player of all time, certainly.

Christian Laetner was, more or less, a disappointment in the NBA, especially relative to his draft position and reputation. If you look at his resume, really, he’s like a very low-budget Carmelo Anthony that people liked less.

I don’t understand why you’re hitching yourself to this wagon.

Agree that Laettner has no business in the HOF, just like Toni Kukoc has no business being there either…