Celtics (12-16) at Pacers (21-5) Game #29 12/22

[Tr1boy]

Difference between Bradley and Olynyk is he sucked in the league when he was 19. Bradley is only 6 months older than Olynyk and now is a top defender in the league while being a very good shooter.

Olynyk sucks when he is just 4 months shy of being 23. Big difference in my mind. If Olynyk was a 19 year old kid like Bradley and Sully was when they entered the league that would be different. But he's not. Pretty much he is what he is at this point.

Using age to eval a player is wrong

If a rookie is 25, suddenly he should play like a third yr player?

They have less time to make their mark but one yr of mistakes or getting their feet wet are allowed for all rookies

Olynyk ppl forget had a unique situation in being a pg and having a crazy growth spurt. Last yr was his first yr as a center. This is his 2nd yr in total and 1st yr in the nba trying to understand and figure out how to play close to the basket.(just in general play pro ball). Give him a break.

KO came into the league with the reputation of a good shooter.  Obviously that is no the case at the moment, but can't deny the 6pts a game he gives you just by making a great pass and collecting the assist.  That, I didn't know he had.  He is rebounding the ball better, not great but just as good/bad as Bass.  So the knock is his defense and shooting.  His shooting will come around, and as long as he learns team defense...he/we should be ok with the pick.

Olynyk had a good rep as a good shooter for a PF or Center. Not a good or great shooter in general.

Also like i said it is extremely unfair to want him to be a traditional Center defender.  He going to be closer to a defender that Nowitzki is vs Chandler or Asik. Maybe he still might but i doubt he will be.

I don't even consider Olynyk a center. He's a 4 all the way to me but he'll likely get exposed defensively anywhere you put him on the court.

i disagree.  Which PF has dominated Olynyk this year?

It's when stevens forces Olynyk against guys like Gasol, Pekovic , Hibbert, that he has had trouble

I know +/- stats aren't the best but Olynyk has some of the worst +/- stats in the league and usually the players with the worst +/- stats in the league are getting dominated by just about anyone who plays against them.

He has not got dominated by his own guy (a nba pf). Maybe a few times but in general no. If he is on the court with other guys that are not doing their job, he can't save them either

and this is where ppl are mad at him.

He is going to be fine. Remember he is also coming back from an ankle injury and just getting warmed up.  He should be out there with Sullinger or Faverani more and not Bass or Humphries

Let me just state now I completely disagree with just about everything you say regarding Olynyk and leave it at that and agree to disagree. If in three years he is still in the league in a Bargani type career, well, good for him and you will be right about him and I will happily say I am wrong.

I just hope if he is out of the league in a year or two you will be big enough to admit you were all wrong about him.

If he is out of the league, i will admit i was wrong. It could be as soon as next year actually

But i have faith.  The sullinger and olynyk experiment needs a longer run also

[LarBrd33]

Rondo says he's not coming back in January.  Come on... TANK!!!!  http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/231186/Rajon-Rondo-Return-In-January-Isnt-Realistic

And the Raptors came back to win.

Edit: The relevance being about dropping in the standings.

Woah!  A tanking double-whammy!  We're now a game behind Toronto for the Atlantic. 

[celtic -_- pride]

Difference between Bradley and Olynyk is he sucked in the league when he was 19. Bradley is only 6 months older than Olynyk and now is a top defender in the league while being a very good shooter.

Olynyk sucks when he is just 4 months shy of being 23. Big difference in my mind. If Olynyk was a 19 year old kid like Bradley and Sully was when they entered the league that would be different. But he's not. Pretty much he is what he is at this point.

Using age to eval a player is wrong

If a rookie is 25, suddenly he should play like a third yr player?

They have less time to make their mark but one yr of mistakes or getting their feet wet are allowed for all rookies

Olynyk ppl forget had a unique situation in being a pg and having a crazy growth spurt. Last yr was his first yr as a center. This is his 2nd yr in total and 1st yr in the nba trying to understand and figure out how to play close to the basket.(just in general play pro ball). Give him a break.

KO came into the league with the reputation of a good shooter.  Obviously that is no the case at the moment, but can't deny the 6pts a game he gives you just by making a great pass and collecting the assist.  That, I didn't know he had.  He is rebounding the ball better, not great but just as good/bad as Bass.  So the knock is his defense and shooting.  His shooting will come around, and as long as he learns team defense...he/we should be ok with the pick.

Olynyk had a good rep as a good shooter for a PF or Center. Not a good or great shooter in general.

Also like i said it is extremely unfair to want him to be a traditional Center defender.  He going to be closer to a defender that Nowitzki is vs Chandler or Asik. Maybe he still might but i doubt he will be.

I don't even consider Olynyk a center. He's a 4 all the way to me but he'll likely get exposed defensively anywhere you put him on the court.

i disagree.  Which PF has dominated Olynyk this year?

It's when stevens forces Olynyk against guys like Gasol, Pekovic , Hibbert, that he has had trouble

I know +/- stats aren't the best but Olynyk has some of the worst +/- stats in the league and usually the players with the worst +/- stats in the league are getting dominated by just about anyone who plays against them.

He has not got dominated by his own guy (a nba pf). Maybe a few times but in general no. If he is on the court with other guys that are not doing their job, he can't save them either

and this is where ppl are mad at him.

He is going to be fine. Remember he is also coming back from an ankle injury and just getting warmed up.  He should be out there with Sullinger or Faverani more and not Bass or Humphries

i agree i was starting to become rather impressed with the KO/sully duo. they were developing some great chemistry. but lets all take this as a reminder that summer league really doesnt mean anything. he beasted SL and now he can barely get 6 points 4 boards consistently. the year is still early though he has time for redemption. and hopefully he gets stronger. he is getting bullied in the paint.

[pokeKingCurtis]

As a disclaimer, I'm one of those who are pretty happy with Olynyk, maybe a little too optimistic.

Using age to eval a player is wrong

If a rookie is 25, suddenly he should play like a third yr player?

They have less time to make their mark but one yr of mistakes or getting their feet wet are allowed for all rookies

Olynyk ppl forget had a unique situation in being a pg and having a crazy growth spurt. Last yr was his first yr as a center. This is his 2nd yr in total and 1st yr in the nba trying to understand and figure out how to play close to the basket.(just in general play pro ball). Give him a break.

I agree with this.

This, along with the fact that bigs take more time to develop, is why I'm still very much holding out for Olynyk. He's already showing flashes of goodies.

but lets all take this as a reminder that summer league really doesnt mean anything.

Well, it means a little.

For one, those who can't even compete at that level are probably not going to compete in the NBA at all.

Being unable to "beast" the summer league is kind of telling as well. Being able to "beast" it doesn't mean it'll translate, but there's a chance.

Olynyk had a good rep as a good shooter for a PF or Center. Not a good or great shooter in general.

Not being an avid college follower, I'm not qualified to completely disagree. But I'm confident he's a better shooter than he's showing right now.

He's not taking tough shots. Those are wide open, in rhythm shots. He's definitely shown the ability to hit those in summer.

And, FWIW, he did very well in the Jazz 100 drill for guards and wings (where players shoot 100 3's in quick succession; Olynyk made 63, the 2nd highest among all who participated and he was doing it against wing players).

now he can barely get 6 points 4 boards consistently.

Well, in 20 minutes, limited touches and such a messed up roster I think it's decent.

Surprisingly grabs some boards despite being bullied and not having the best hands for rebounding. I like his positioning.

He has not got dominated by his own guy (a nba pf). Maybe a few times but in general no. If he is on the court with other guys that are not doing their job, he can't save them either

For this reason, I would love to see a solid defensive center on the team. Next to Olynyk and Sully. The center hole makes it such that some players "[can]not do their job". I'm curious as to how Olynyk would look splitting time at PF next to a legit center and at C next to Sully.

Sully is our best center. It's rough.

[nickagneta]

I'm not sure that some of the Kelly Olynyk fans have reviewed his stats to see just how bad he is playing and why he is starting to see less and less minutes in the rotation:

He takes 6.7 shots per game.
He scores 6.6 points a game.
[when you need to take 7 shots a game to score 6-7 points, that is a reaally bad sign.]

His FG% is 38.3%
His 3PT% is 28.1%
His TS% is 45.4%
His eFG% is 40.6%

In case you are wondering, for a shooting guard those stats are abysmal. For a PF/C the are downright crominally bad

His rebound% is 13.6%.
His turnover percentage is 20.7%

[When you are a big and your rebound % isn't above 15%, that's pretty bad. When your turnover% is 20%  that's awful.]

His ORTG is 90
His DRTG is 105

[That means when he is on the floor, after 100 possessions his team is being outscored by 15 points. A ORTG of 90 is anemic]

His Simple rating is 12.9[Which is 2.5 times worse than any other Celtic except Bogans who barely sees the floor]

The team gives up 6.2 more points when he is on the floor over 48 minutes than when he is off.
The team scores 5.7 points less when he is on the floor over 48 minutes than when he is off.
His OWS are below zero and his DWS are almost at 0.
His total win shares are currently at 0.008.

Any way you look at this guy whether statistically or with the eye, he is playing horribly, probably bad enough to warrant not being in the league. His developmental curve is smaller than most rookies because of his age.

Here's hoping Ainge can use him in some trade like he did JuJuan Johnson before he has to cut him because he will be adding two more rookie projects next year.

[DesertDweller]

Celtics slowly slipping back to where most fans thought they would be. all of a sudden there's no chemistry.

[esel1000]

Why did Sully only get 16 mins last night? Injury? Rest? I mean getting blown out or not he is our best player and has led some nice comebacks in the 4th, would have rather seen him in than Olynyk for that long

[Tr1boy]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIqIa0o3zyo

I know some people will wonder why i'm putting up a clip of Olynyk getting stuffed. But imo its encouraging to see him be patient, a little selfish and show a glimpse of himself during the SL

He is playing nervous, too worried about feeding the ball to others, setting picks for them and not playing the way he can. We have seen maybe 20 percent of his SL skills so far this year. All of a sudden bc its the nba , the bag of tricks are gone? I refuse to belive it

He is especially good at spinning , or dribbling , spinning then scoring a layup or shooting a jump shot.  This pt fwd crap Stevens has him do 100 percent of the time might be limiting what he can really do out there.

Sullinger last year struggled, got stuffed left and right, but this year is playing the way he can. I know Olynyk can also in time or given much more freedom. Just the only thing i'm not sure is, if he should put on 20 pounds of muscle or thin out like Dirk to take his game to the next level

[nickagneta]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIqIa0o3zyo

I know some people will wonder why i'm putting up a clip of Olynyk getting stuffed. But imo its encouraging to see him be patient, a little selfish and show a glimpse of himself during the SL

He is playing nervous, too worried about feeding the ball to others, setting picks for them and not playing the way he can. We have seen maybe 20 percent of his SL skills so far this year. All of a sudden bc its the nba , the bag of tricks are gone? I refuse to belive it

He is especially good at spinning , or dribbling , spinning then scoring a layup or shooting a jump shot.  This pt fwd crap Stevens has him do 100 percent of the time might be limiting what he can really do out there.

Sullinger last year struggled, got stuffed left and right, but this year is playing the way he can. I know Olynyk can also in time or given much more freedom. Just the only thing i'm not sure is, if he should put on 20 pounds of muscle or thin out like Dirk to take his game to the next level

Another explanation for the difference in play between SL and now for Olynyk is that he could pull those moves off versus summer league scrubs that were not concentrating on defense but offense only.

Now he is in the big league playing against NBA rotation players, starters and stars and players playing defense, sometime not so well sometimes superb, and he just can't pull off those moves because he isn't fast enough, quick, enough, or strong enough to do those moves versus seasoned pros.

This is something I discussed when he was going off in the Summer league. That if you stopped looking at his stats and started looking at how quick and physical he was being that there was a good chance he could struggle mightily in the NBA because once real life NBA power forwards were guarding him, his game would suffer.

[SHAQATTACK]

Fasten your seat belts ......the western trip is gonna put us in a step dive that probably takes the Celtics to the NBA basement ....hello Bucks . And nets ......where we  should just stay .....for the lottery......keep rehabbing Rondo.

[DesertDweller]

This is a monster 5 game western road trip coming up and the way the Celtics are playing right this minute I don't see a "W" in sight on this tour.
I really hope Stevens is over with the Sully/KO experiment.
Olynyk is getting thrown around like a red headed step child. he is way too slow for whatever it is Stevens is trying to run. I'm really worried about Kelly because I'm not seeing any improvement and teams are not fooled with his over under layups. he becomes very confused when double teamed and is easily stripped of the ball. for him to make it he has to put on some pounds and become way more aggressive!!!

[cman88]

This is a monster 5 game western road trip coming up and the way the Celtics are playing right this minute I don't see a "W" in sight on this tour.
I really hope Stevens is over with the Sully/KO experiment.
Olynyk is getting thrown around like a red headed step child. he is way too slow for whatever it is Stevens is trying to run. I'm really worried about Kelly because I'm not seeing any improvement and teams are not fooled with his over under layups. he becomes very confused when double teamed and is easily stripped of the ball. for him to make it he has to put on some pounds and become way more aggressive!!!

I would rather see Olynyk get playing time and develop rather than stunting his growth giving those minutes to vets like Bass/Humphries.

This season isn't about winning. its about developing our talent and hopefully getting a high pick. hopefully we lose every game on our western road trip

[DesertDweller]

I just don't get you guys that revel in the Celtics losing for the sake of the possibility at getting a good draft pick.
Besides not being fun to watch, think about the embarrassment the players must feel literally throwing games and what it does for the younger player's morale.

To me, It's a lose, lose situation!!!

[hwangjini_1]

I'm not sure that some of the Kelly Olynyk fans have reviewed his stats to see just how bad he is playing and why he is starting to see less and less minutes in the rotation:

He takes 6.7 shots per game.
He scores 6.6 points a game.
[when you need to take 7 shots a game to score 6-7 points, that is a reaally bad sign.]

His FG% is 38.3%
His 3PT% is 28.1%
His TS% is 45.4%
His eFG% is 40.6%

In case you are wondering, for a shooting guard those stats are abysmal. For a PF/C the are downright crominally bad

His rebound% is 13.6%.
His turnover percentage is 20.7%

[When you are a big and your rebound % isn't above 15%, that's pretty bad. When your turnover% is 20%  that's awful.]

His ORTG is 90
His DRTG is 105

[That means when he is on the floor, after 100 possessions his team is being outscored by 15 points. A ORTG of 90 is anemic]

His Simple rating is 12.9[Which is 2.5 times worse than any other Celtic except Bogans who barely sees the floor]

The team gives up 6.2 more points when he is on the floor over 48 minutes than when he is off.
The team scores 5.7 points less when he is on the floor over 48 minutes than when he is off.
His OWS are below zero and his DWS are almost at 0.
His total win shares are currently at 0.008.

Any way you look at this guy whether statistically or with the eye, he is playing horribly, probably bad enough to warrant not being in the league. His developmental curve is smaller than most rookies because of his age.

Here's hoping Ainge can use him in some trade like he did JuJuan Johnson before he has to cut him because he will be adding two more rookie projects next year.

Great, now also add one more stat...his total of 19 games played in his entire career. Really guys, this is truly a rush to judgement even by cb standards. (well, maybe not by our standards. )

From what I see so far olly fits with the predictions about him and his abilities. It might be more fruitful to re-evaluate the cb expectations on him than pass a career [dang]ing judgement at this stage.

I was skeptical about the opinions during summer league that olly was a star and might up up 18-29 points a game during the season. I am at least as skeptical that he is a bust, at least based upon his performance so far.

Personally, I think he will be a good, above average offensive front court player, who will be torched by athletic forwards. A great guy to have coming off the bench on a championship team.

[nickagneta]

I'm not sure that some of the Kelly Olynyk fans have reviewed his stats to see just how bad he is playing and why he is starting to see less and less minutes in the rotation:

He takes 6.7 shots per game.
He scores 6.6 points a game.
[when you need to take 7 shots a game to score 6-7 points, that is a reaally bad sign.]

His FG% is 38.3%
His 3PT% is 28.1%
His TS% is 45.4%
His eFG% is 40.6%

In case you are wondering, for a shooting guard those stats are abysmal. For a PF/C the are downright crominally bad

His rebound% is 13.6%.
His turnover percentage is 20.7%

[When you are a big and your rebound % isn't above 15%, that's pretty bad. When your turnover% is 20%  that's awful.]

His ORTG is 90
His DRTG is 105

[That means when he is on the floor, after 100 possessions his team is being outscored by 15 points. A ORTG of 90 is anemic]

His Simple rating is 12.9[Which is 2.5 times worse than any other Celtic except Bogans who barely sees the floor]

The team gives up 6.2 more points when he is on the floor over 48 minutes than when he is off.
The team scores 5.7 points less when he is on the floor over 48 minutes than when he is off.
His OWS are below zero and his DWS are almost at 0.
His total win shares are currently at 0.008.

Any way you look at this guy whether statistically or with the eye, he is playing horribly, probably bad enough to warrant not being in the league. His developmental curve is smaller than most rookies because of his age.

Here's hoping Ainge can use him in some trade like he did JuJuan Johnson before he has to cut him because he will be adding two more rookie projects next year.

Great, now also add one more stat...his total of 19 games played in his entire career. Really guys, this is truly a rush to judgement even by cb standards. (well, maybe not by our standards. )

From what I see so far olly fits with the predictions about him and his abilities. It might be more fruitful to re-evaluate the cb expectations on him than pass a career [dang]ing judgement at this stage.

I was skeptical about the opinions during summer league that olly was a star and might up up 18-29 points a game during the season. I am at least as skeptical that he is a bust, at least based upon his performance so far.

Personally, I think he will be a good, above average offensive front court player, who will be torched by athletic forwards. A great guy to have coming off the bench on a championship team.

You do realize that most people that proclaimed him to be something very good to great did so on the stats of 30 college games(I refuse to believe anyone watched more than a few Butler games), some you-tube highlight clips, and 5 Summer League games?

At least watching 19 professional games gives a clear indication of his pluses and minuses against professional competition.

He's played pretty lousy. I think that is hard to debate. The question is can he get better? I happen to think he is what he is for many reasons and won't improve.