Author Topic: Kyrie is not a player who makes a team better  (Read 1786 times)

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Re: Kyrie is not a player who makes a team better
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2019, 06:52:05 PM »

Offline NKY fan

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Here's the thing.  If Kyrie Irving just left the team, even with no new players to replace him, the team would be better.  That's not to say that the Celtics shouldn't get something for him.  They should.  But if he left, they would be the same team as last year with the addition of Hayward.  I know.  You already know that.  But the thing is, this is a team game and having a guy who wants to be "the guy" doesn't make a team better.  It makes players like Tatum and Brown and Rozier and Smart worse. 

I was booed off this board earlier this year for saying they should trade for Whiteside and other assets at the Heat for Irving, and for the record, I said they should trade him for AD too.  Whatever they do, they need to get him off the team.  And they could certainly use a big, defensive, rebounding C.  There is plenty of talent on the team.  And it's clear that the coaching staff is stifled having to deal with Kyrie.

Hey, he's probably a nice guy.  But he's not a team guy.
How would you feel if Kyrie walks this summer. Phoenix offers Rozier $80M over 4 years ... ainge matches that.... and then signs brown to a max extension?
Would we be better in that situation ?

Re: Kyrie is not a player who makes a team better
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2019, 06:54:06 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I wonder what would people be thinking if we didn’t collapse in the second half of game seven last year vs Cleveland
Probably that it was too bad Kyrie was hurt because with Kyrie the Celtics could have won the title. Clearly, Kyrie knows how to beat Golden State.

Re: Kyrie is not a player who makes a team better
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2019, 06:55:03 PM »

Offline NKY fan

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I wonder what would people be thinking if we didn’t collapse in the second half of game seven last year vs Cleveland
Probably that it was too bad Kyrie was hurt because with Kyrie the Celtics could have won the title. Clearly, Kyrie knows how to beat Golden State.
Agree lol 😂...
So many what ifs

Re: Kyrie is not a player who makes a team better
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2019, 06:59:30 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I've read various statistical analyses of this situation, and it is not at all clear that the team is better, as a team, with Kyrie.  But statistics don't tell the whole picture.  Anyone who has ever been on a team, in sports or any other endeavor, knows that the impact on the attitude and the impact on the other players is what matters.  And to understand that, you can't simply look at isolated minutes when a guy is on the bench. 

With Kyrie, everyone knows that the game is about him.  He's made that pretty clear, over the years and even in comments this year.  That means people like Tatum and Brown and Rozier and Smart and Hayward aren't going to get a chance to play team basketball.  And if also means that Brad Stephens isn't being leveraged because he's a TEAM coach.  This isn't that difficult to understand.

I completely agree that a GM who trades Irving is probably going to get roasted.  But that doesn't mean it isn't the right thing to do.  The Patriots would move him so fast it would be crazy.  He's just not about the team first.  Too many isolations.  Too little defense.  Too little ball movement.  It's clear that others on the team are frustrated with him, and to make matters worse, he criticizes THEM. 

Now, I didn't say they should trade him for Whiteside straight up.  I think there are other players in the league that would be even better.  AD of course.  The point is that addition by subtraction sometimes works.  And of course Ainge has to say that it would be crazy to trade Irving.  First, Irving would freak out if he heard Ainge criticize him publicly.  Second, it would decrease his trade value. 

What I'm saying is that the Celtics are a better team, a more effective team over the long term, without a player who doesn't play intense defense, who doesn't get others involved as much as he should, and who wants to be a superstar more than he wants to be on a super team.  Teams win.  Teams led by players who work and play harder than anyone on the court, and who demand the same kind of intensity and effort from others.  Actions speak louder than words.
The entire reasoning of this diatribe falls completely apart when you see what everybody else here sees, Kyrie is a team player. That his team mates like him. That the team is just plain and simply, better and more dangerous and more likely to win a title with him on the court.

Re: Kyrie is not a player who makes a team better
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2019, 07:38:22 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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yeah ....

thats right .









he makes teams GREAT !

Re: Kyrie is not a player who makes a team better
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2019, 07:42:49 PM »

Offline gouki88

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If you were a GM and you traded Kyrie Irving + assets to the Heat for Hassan Whiteside, you'd be fired. And deservedly so.

Not responding to the rest of this unless you provide stats or anything remotely conclusive to back up your claims.
Yeah, vomit-worthy trade. I wouldn’t trade Timelord for Whiteside.

Good luck getting those! ;D
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Re: Kyrie is not a player who makes a team better
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2019, 07:43:12 PM »

Offline Scintan

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A more accurate and interesting thread would have started off something like

"Sometimes the (insert team name here) play more smoothly without (insert team's top player's name here), and that translates to wins for a while, until opposing teams adjust, and every once in a long time, that improvement is lasting."

and then gotten into the question of whether or not teams could make said adjustment specifically regarding this Celtics team.


When people are free to do as they please, they usually imitate each other.

Re: Kyrie is not a player who makes a team better
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2019, 07:43:35 PM »

Offline Erik

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I was booed off this board earlier this year for saying

Just a word of advice: it’s ok to have a highly unpopular opinion, but you’d better have a lot of facts to back it up. I don’t see much fact here. Show us how Whiteside is anywhere in the same atmosphere as Irving, and show us how a big that doesn’t shoot 3s fits into our system.

I've read various statistical analyses of this situation, and it is not at all clear that the team is better, as a team, with Kyrie.
Look at the off/on numbers. They’re not a perfect stat, but the discrepancy is so large that there has to be something there. It’s something like +9 on +1 off.
Quote
I completely agree that a GM who trades Irving is probably going to get roasted.  But that doesn't mean it isn't the right thing to do.  The Patriots would move him so fast it would be crazy.

Two different sports. Basketball is a players league. Lots of stats show that highly talented players bring in titles. Football is more about the system. One locker room cancer is just not as worth it when it’s 53 players instead of 13.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2019, 08:09:37 PM by Erik »

Re: Kyrie is not a player who makes a team better
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2019, 07:45:36 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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A more accurate and interesting thread would have started off something like

"Sometimes the (insert team name here) play more smoothly without (insert team's top player's name here), and that translates to wins for a while, until opposing teams adjust, and every once in a long time, that improvement is lasting."

and then gotten into the question of whether or not teams could make said adjustment specifically regarding this Celtics team.
Can I insert the Indiana Pacers and Victor Oladipo into your scenario?

Re: Kyrie is not a player who makes a team better
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2019, 09:21:37 PM »

Offline Scintan

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A more accurate and interesting thread would have started off something like

"Sometimes the (insert team name here) play more smoothly without (insert team's top player's name here), and that translates to wins for a while, until opposing teams adjust, and every once in a long time, that improvement is lasting."

and then gotten into the question of whether or not teams could make said adjustment specifically regarding this Celtics team.
Can I insert the Indiana Pacers and Victor Oladipo into your scenario?

Absolutely.  That's an excellent example playing out right there.


When people are free to do as they please, they usually imitate each other.

Re: Kyrie is not a player who makes a team better
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2019, 09:23:29 PM »

Offline Sophomore

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Do we really need so many threads on this topic? I’m pretty sure the horse is dead and we can stop beating it.

Re: Kyrie is not a player who makes a team better
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2019, 09:27:07 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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Re: Kyrie is not a player who makes a team better
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2019, 09:35:22 PM »

Offline gpap

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Are we back to this again?

Re: Kyrie is not a player who makes a team better
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2019, 09:43:03 PM »

Offline Erik

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I’m pretty sure that some people starting these threads are trolls trying to rile up the forum. I’d suggest better moderation from admins and/or users just ignoring them. There are lots of team forums out there that would ban users that make wild and illogical threads like Whiteside for Irving, especially from a new user. I’m not for censorship, but it’s obvious what the intent is.

Re: Kyrie is not a player who makes a team better
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2019, 09:57:19 PM »

Offline RPGenerate

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Oh boy, another "Kyrie isn't a team player" thread, because we haven't discussed the same talking points over and over and over again. Like seriously, can we start locking these threads right off the bat? No productive conversations come from these repetitive threads.
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