CelticsStrong

Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Tr1boy on January 03, 2013, 01:26:19 PM

Title: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: Tr1boy on January 03, 2013, 01:26:19 PM
Hopefully things turn around. But if not , at this rate, when is something going to change?? I can see something happening as soon as we lose the next three and worse case by trade deadline. The bottom line is, you can't sign KG and Pierce to all star level salary figures plus generously pay 4 bench players, only to not make it into the playoffs.  Its just not acceptable

Four changes i see happening (from likely to less likely)

1. Don't touch the core and trade for a center - Gorat, Okafor as example. Likely it will take one of Sully, Melo and a 1st round pick. Danny will have to overpay for this quick but possible "glue" solution

2. Paul Pierce is traded for picks and youth. Give Jeff Green a chance to start. Also frees up money next year to sign Josh Smith.

3. Fire Rivers. Would our team be better if Greg Popovich was coaching instead? Rivers is an ok coach that has had the luxury to have hof players KG, Pierce, Ray Allen. But when you don't have an optimal team, Rivers can only get you 500 or less. San Antonio has key players that are as old and injured as the ones on our team. They also have several no name guys pops developed that have done the job. No wasting millions of dollars

4. Total Blow up. Say we lose next to IND all the way until we lose to the Bobcats. Is this considered a one player away issue? A coaching issue? To me this could mean a total blow up necessary to move the franchise forward. I mean see you later Ainge, Rivers, KG, Pierce and Rondo.

realistic team after blowup
Scal as new coach, Trade Rondo, KG, Sully to ATL for Horford and Jeff Teague,  trade Pierce and Lee to Den for Corey Brewer, Mozgov, Chandler, 1st round pick, Jeff Green to IND for Tyler Hansborough, 1st round pick + salary fill in, Jason Terry to OKC for Reggie Jackson + salary fill in

New lineup
Starting - Horford, Hansborough, Brewer, Bradley, Teague
Bench - Mozgov, Melo, Bass, Chandler, Jackson 
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: Chris on January 03, 2013, 01:32:29 PM
Well, I wouldn't expect anything before January 15th.  That would be the first date to mark down, because that is when Green and Bass can be traded. 

Beyond that, it depends what other teams timelines are. 
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: Tr1boy on January 03, 2013, 01:38:57 PM
Well, I wouldn't expect anything before January 15th.  That would be the first date to mark down, because that is when Green and Bass can be traded. 

Beyond that, it depends what other teams timelines are.

Likely by the trade deadline date , at this rate, a minor trade (getting a decent center) to a major (possible blow up of team) change will occur. I'm not feeling good about our chances to win the next three games nor going on any major winning streaks this month. Maybe a two game streak if we beat NO and bobcats.
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 03, 2013, 01:39:22 PM
Between Jan 15th and the trade deadline.  Same as always. 

This is what you call a sitting duck team.  Everyone knows trade rumors are about to swirl... and we've always known they can't really start until Jan 15th.  When the dust settles after the deadline, you'll start to see a team that is more emotionally invested and locked in.  Until then, it's going to be a lackluster affair of undefined roles and lack of focus.  That's the risk you take when you acquire redundant assets and head into the season with a roster that clearly needs a trade to work properly.  The biggest thing Bradley's return does is give Barbosa (a fine player) a bunch of DNP's.  Meanwhile we're starting a garbage center and our 4th best player (jeff green) is coming off the bench.  That's a broken roster.   

It's little things like the fact Sullinger makes Brandon Bass expendable.  Those two are redundant.  But you can't outright stop playing Bass, because it will tank what little trade value he has.  I've been watching the Celtics and Danny Ainge long enough to know how this works.  I remember the fans frustration when Big Al/Perk weren't getting enough minutes... meanwhile we were playing Mark Blount heavy minutes.  It was clear we wanted to dump Blount.... and we did.  I think the players can sense when they are on a team like that... and I imagine it's tough to get very moitivated to go to war with your "brothers" when you know you or your "brothers" are on the way out within the next month. 
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: clover on January 03, 2013, 01:51:12 PM
Probably not until after the 15th, when Green or Bass could be included, though I think Danny would strike immediately if there were a Cousins-level trade to be made before then.

If they don't significantly improve their play (which I am not anticipating), I think Danny will be ready to blow it up, as much as he is able to, by mid-February.
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: droopdog7 on January 03, 2013, 01:55:09 PM
They basically have to decide whether they are contenders or pretenders first.  I tend to think they are pretenders.  Unfortunately, they don't have many salary friendly contracts to trade.
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: KGs Knee on January 03, 2013, 02:03:52 PM
Random thought here:
Pierce to the Spurs for Kawahi Leonard.
Terry to someone for expirings.
Green/Bass/Lee for some cheeseburgers (with bacon)
Kg retires????
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 03, 2013, 02:06:13 PM
They basically have to decide whether they are contenders or pretenders first.  I tend to think they are pretenders.  Unfortunately, they don't have many salary friendly contracts to trade.
Personally I've felt like we were pretenders since early 2011 when Shaq got injured.

We made a cute little run towards the end of a lockout shortened season last year.   And then we lucked into playing a 5th seed without their best player... and an 8th seed in the second round (who managed to take us to 7 games).

I agree we gave Miami everything we had until Bosh came back and LeBron took care of business, but there is only so much you can read into that.  We gave them everything we had.  That's all pride right there.  Pride of old dogs like Ray and Pierce (who were both playing hurt) and of course Kevin Garnett.  They all dug as deep as they could.  Muscle memory took over for the former stars.  Once great men giving it their all.  We gave Miami hell.  It was a lot of fun.

We had the luxury of avoiding Orlando and Dwight (who would have eaten us alive). We had the luxury of avoiding the Spurs (who were the best team in the regular season and would punish us with size).  We had the luxury of avoiding the Lakers who would have just owned us inside.   We had the luxury of avoiding the Thunder.  We had the luxury of avoiding the Bulls with Rose (who were probably the best team in the East).  We didn't even have to play a tough Indiana team or tough Memphis/Clippers teams that probably could have knocked us off.

Injuries hurt our season for sure.  But we got darn lucky in the playoffs.

This year if we luck into playing a 5th seed without their best player and the 8th seed... we might sneak into the Eastern Conference Finals again. 
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: Tr1boy on January 03, 2013, 03:48:48 PM
As someone pointed out before, we are also dealing with bad luck this year.

It seems like this is the year where both KG and Pierce play have hit the wall and regressed due to age. It happens to all big stars at one point of their long careers.  We lose Darko, who we could of really used to play center right now. You could blame doc on this one for not giving him any play and making his decision easier to leave to be with his mom. Keyon Dooling changes his mind and doesn't comeback to be the 2nd unit pg as we could of really used his intensity, passion and knack of scoring some big shots.  Losing guys like Pietrus, Hollins, Stiemer has been pretty big. Pietrus has been a big part in helping Toronto transform to where they are today. Hollins and Stiemer are not key guys for their team now, but would be if they played for us.  They would be a heck lot more effective than Collins.
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: letsgoblue86 on January 03, 2013, 04:05:33 PM
Hopefully things turn around. But if not , at this rate, when is something going to change?? I can see something happening as soon as we lose the next three and worse case by trade deadline. The bottom line is, you can't sign KG and Pierce to all star level salary figures plus generously pay 4 bench players, only to not make it into the playoffs.  Its just not acceptable

Four changes i see happening (from likely to less likely)

1. Don't touch the core and trade for a center - Gorat, Okafor as example. Likely it will take one of Sully, Melo and a 1st round pick. Danny will have to overpay for this quick but possible "glue" solution

2. Paul Pierce is traded for picks and youth. Give Jeff Green a chance to start. Also frees up money next year to sign Josh Smith.

3. Fire Rivers. Would our team be better if Greg Popovich was coaching instead? Rivers is an ok coach that has had the luxury to have hof players KG, Pierce, Ray Allen. But when you don't have an optimal team, Rivers can only get you 500 or less. San Antonio has key players that are as old and injured as the ones on our team. They also have several no name guys pops developed that have done the job. No wasting millions of dollars

4. Total Blow up. Say we lose next to IND all the way until we lose to the Bobcats. Is this considered a one player away issue? A coaching issue? To me this could mean a total blow up necessary to move the franchise forward. I mean see you later Ainge, Rivers, KG, Pierce and Rondo.

realistic team after blowup
Scal as new coach, Trade Rondo, KG, Sully to ATL for Horford and Jeff Teague,  trade Pierce and Lee to Den for Corey Brewer, Mozgov, Chandler, 1st round pick, Jeff Green to IND for Tyler Hansborough, 1st round pick + salary fill in, Jason Terry to OKC for Reggie Jackson + salary fill in

New lineup
Starting - Horford, Hansborough, Brewer, Bradley, Teague
Bench - Mozgov, Melo, Bass, Chandler, Jackson
Scal would be an AWESOME coach!
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: jambr380 on January 03, 2013, 04:06:44 PM
Hopefully things turn around. But if not , at this rate, when is something going to change?? I can see something happening as soon as we lose the next three and worse case by trade deadline. The bottom line is, you can't sign KG and Pierce to all star level salary figures plus generously pay 4 bench players, only to not make it into the playoffs.  Its just not acceptable

Four changes i see happening (from likely to less likely)

1. Don't touch the core and trade for a center - Gorat, Okafor as example. Likely it will take one of Sully, Melo and a 1st round pick. Danny will have to overpay for this quick but possible "glue" solution

2. Paul Pierce is traded for picks and youth. Give Jeff Green a chance to start. Also frees up money next year to sign Josh Smith.

3. Fire Rivers. Would our team be better if Greg Popovich was coaching instead? Rivers is an ok coach that has had the luxury to have hof players KG, Pierce, Ray Allen. But when you don't have an optimal team, Rivers can only get you 500 or less. San Antonio has key players that are as old and injured as the ones on our team. They also have several no name guys pops developed that have done the job. No wasting millions of dollars

4. Total Blow up. Say we lose next to IND all the way until we lose to the Bobcats. Is this considered a one player away issue? A coaching issue? To me this could mean a total blow up necessary to move the franchise forward. I mean see you later Ainge, Rivers, KG, Pierce and Rondo.

realistic team after blowup
Scal as new coach, Trade Rondo, KG, Sully to ATL for Horford and Jeff Teague,  trade Pierce and Lee to Den for Corey Brewer, Mozgov, Chandler, 1st round pick, Jeff Green to IND for Tyler Hansborough, 1st round pick + salary fill in, Jason Terry to OKC for Reggie Jackson + salary fill in

New lineup
Starting - Horford, Hansborough, Brewer, Bradley, Teague
Bench - Mozgov, Melo, Bass, Chandler, Jackson

Your different scenarios are pretty interesting, but that is the worst team you could possible construct. If it is blow it up and acquire those players for our current ones, or keep what we have and enjoy the show, I am standing pat. The only decent player you have there is Horford and all of the draft picks would be quite low...
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: MBunge on January 03, 2013, 04:17:20 PM
I think it will take more than losing the next three.  If they add on losses in the next two games at home to Phoenix and Houston, that's when I suspect something will happen.  The team would be 14-22 and would basically have to play better than .500 ball the rest of the season just to get the 8th playoff spot.

Mike
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: Roy H. on January 03, 2013, 04:34:52 PM
Quote
realistic team after blowup
Scal as new coach, Trade Rondo, KG, Sully to ATL for Horford and Jeff Teague,  trade Pierce and Lee to Den for Corey Brewer, Mozgov, Chandler, 1st round pick, Jeff Green to IND for Tyler Hansborough, 1st round pick + salary fill in, Jason Terry to OKC for Reggie Jackson + salary fill in

New lineup
Starting - Horford, Hansborough, Brewer, Bradley, Teague
Bench - Mozgov, Melo, Bass, Chandler, Jackson 

Ouch.  I think that team is worse than our current one, both in the present and future.
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: Tr1boy on January 03, 2013, 04:39:48 PM
Hopefully things turn around. But if not , at this rate, when is something going to change?? I can see something happening as soon as we lose the next three and worse case by trade deadline. The bottom line is, you can't sign KG and Pierce to all star level salary figures plus generously pay 4 bench players, only to not make it into the playoffs.  Its just not acceptable

Four changes i see happening (from likely to less likely)

1. Don't touch the core and trade for a center - Gorat, Okafor as example. Likely it will take one of Sully, Melo and a 1st round pick. Danny will have to overpay for this quick but possible "glue" solution

2. Paul Pierce is traded for picks and youth. Give Jeff Green a chance to start. Also frees up money next year to sign Josh Smith.

3. Fire Rivers. Would our team be better if Greg Popovich was coaching instead? Rivers is an ok coach that has had the luxury to have hof players KG, Pierce, Ray Allen. But when you don't have an optimal team, Rivers can only get you 500 or less. San Antonio has key players that are as old and injured as the ones on our team. They also have several no name guys pops developed that have done the job. No wasting millions of dollars

4. Total Blow up. Say we lose next to IND all the way until we lose to the Bobcats. Is this considered a one player away issue? A coaching issue? To me this could mean a total blow up necessary to move the franchise forward. I mean see you later Ainge, Rivers, KG, Pierce and Rondo.

realistic team after blowup
Scal as new coach, Trade Rondo, KG, Sully to ATL for Horford and Jeff Teague,  trade Pierce and Lee to Den for Corey Brewer, Mozgov, Chandler, 1st round pick, Jeff Green to IND for Tyler Hansborough, 1st round pick + salary fill in, Jason Terry to OKC for Reggie Jackson + salary fill in

New lineup
Starting - Horford, Hansborough, Brewer, Bradley, Teague
Bench - Mozgov, Melo, Bass, Chandler, Jackson

Your different scenarios are pretty interesting, but that is the worst team you could possible construct. If it is blow it up and acquire those players for our current ones, or keep what we have and enjoy the show, I am standing pat. The only decent player you have there is Horford and all of the draft picks would be quite low...

Teague is a very very good pg. In some ways better than Rondo the way he can shoot and score in clutch. I think Hansborough is going to become the 2nd coming of David Lee. A late bloomer but eventually a near all star.  He has been putting together quite a bit of 20 and 10 games this year. He just needs a chance to start. Bradley is an amazing defender at guard and Brewer like Hansborough is really coming along. He couldn't shoot with much consistancy earlier in his career and now will shoot it in the 4th quarter, with hands in his face and make it. He is also a fantastic defender and has a relationship with Horford in that they both won a championship at college level before the NBA.

We would be young, athletic, and have defensive shutdown potential.
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: Tr1boy on January 03, 2013, 04:45:24 PM
Quote
realistic team after blowup
Scal as new coach, Trade Rondo, KG, Sully to ATL for Horford and Jeff Teague,  trade Pierce and Lee to Den for Corey Brewer, Mozgov, Chandler, 1st round pick, Jeff Green to IND for Tyler Hansborough, 1st round pick + salary fill in, Jason Terry to OKC for Reggie Jackson + salary fill in

New lineup
Starting - Horford, Hansborough, Brewer, Bradley, Teague
Bench - Mozgov, Melo, Bass, Chandler, Jackson 

Ouch.  I think that team is worse than our current one, both in the present and future.

No it wouldn't. Imo the proposed new starting lineup would beat the current lineup now.
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on January 03, 2013, 05:36:18 PM
I just think that nothing will happen until Febuary 21 - if then.

Give AB a few weeks to get his game legs back under him, and then let's see where we're at.
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: Roy H. on January 03, 2013, 05:51:49 PM
Quote
realistic team after blowup
Scal as new coach, Trade Rondo, KG, Sully to ATL for Horford and Jeff Teague,  trade Pierce and Lee to Den for Corey Brewer, Mozgov, Chandler, 1st round pick, Jeff Green to IND for Tyler Hansborough, 1st round pick + salary fill in, Jason Terry to OKC for Reggie Jackson + salary fill in

New lineup
Starting - Horford, Hansborough, Brewer, Bradley, Teague
Bench - Mozgov, Melo, Bass, Chandler, Jackson 

Ouch.  I think that team is worse than our current one, both in the present and future.

No it wouldn't. Imo the proposed new starting lineup would beat the current lineup now.

Let's throw Sully into the starting lineup, since Collins is maybe the worst veteran in the NBA.

KG / Sully / Pierce / Bradley / Rondo

vs.

Horford / Hansborough / Brewer / Bradley / Teague

I'd take KG over Horford, Pierce over Brewer, and Rondo over Teague.  The gap between Hansborough and Sully isn't so big that it makes up for those other three advantages.  Heck, their production is currently extremely similar, and Sullinger has a ton of room to grow.
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: lantinm on January 03, 2013, 05:52:36 PM
I think a few things can be done right now to improve this team. Here they are:

1. Sit Jason Collins and make sure he never sees the court again.  We pretty much play 4 on 5 out there when he's in.  I'm not even sure he should be in the league at this point.

2. Move KG back to the 5.

3. Start Sully at the 4 and play him until he fouls out.

4. Make Barbosa the backup point guard and give him 12 minutes a game.

5. Play Fab Melo as KG's backup 16-18 minutes a game.  I don't care if he fouls out in 16 minutes -- he will give us more than Collins ever will.

Go with the following rotation

Starters -

C - KG - 32 minutes
PF - Sully - 24 minutes (or whenever he fouls out)
SF - Pierce - 32 minutes
SG - Bradley - 30 minutes
PG - Rondo - 36 minutes

Bench -

C - Melo - 16 minutes
PF - Bass - 20 minutes
SF - Green - 20 minutes (including 4 at PF)
SG - Terry - 18 minutes
PG - Barbosa - 12 minutes

Odd men out:

Lee (still could see him getting time in certain situations)
Wilcox (Hurt)
Collins (don't even get me started)
Varnado (could see minutes during garbage time)
Joseph (keep him in D-League to develop)_
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: Who on January 03, 2013, 06:55:30 PM
I think they have already started. The last game against Memphis was an encouraging step forward and I think they will continue to improve over the next few games.

The main thing for me right now is Rondo getting fully healthy. As soon as that happens, they're in business. Getting Jason Collins out of the starting lineup would be great also. I have no idea why Doc insists on keeping him there. It's the massive mistake.
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: kozlodoev on January 03, 2013, 06:57:13 PM
I just think that nothing will happen until Febuary 21 - if then.

Give AB a few weeks to get his game legs back under him, and then let's see where we're at.
By this time we may be solidly out of the playoff picture already, so what does it matter?
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: SHAQATTACK on January 03, 2013, 07:07:57 PM
I hope as soon as Danny has the opportunity to do something that makes sense to improve the team that might work he'll try and do it .

They can play better with whats here and now , no doubt,  but I'm not sure its gonna be earth shaking either way., it may couple years anyhow. or 23

The Celtics are what they are.
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on January 03, 2013, 07:09:31 PM
I just think that nothing will happen until Febuary 21 - if then.

Give AB a few weeks to get his game legs back under him, and then let's see where we're at.
By this time we may be solidly out of the playoff picture already, so what does it matter?

Or, we could be in the midst of a significant winning streak.

One of these days, CelticsBlog will just implode upon itself with doom and gloom.

Just:

(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTEKzk9hAG0IE22x6ZeKQF08QpJ6CVDwH7dxDsHmutPkmDdqjHP2g)

A Green sludge will be all that's left - engulfing all of us, lol.
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: Tr1boy on January 03, 2013, 07:45:27 PM
Quote
realistic team after blowup
Scal as new coach, Trade Rondo, KG, Sully to ATL for Horford and Jeff Teague,  trade Pierce and Lee to Den for Corey Brewer, Mozgov, Chandler, 1st round pick, Jeff Green to IND for Tyler Hansborough, 1st round pick + salary fill in, Jason Terry to OKC for Reggie Jackson + salary fill in

New lineup
Starting - Horford, Hansborough, Brewer, Bradley, Teague
Bench - Mozgov, Melo, Bass, Chandler, Jackson 

Ouch.  I think that team is worse than our current one, both in the present and future.

No it wouldn't. Imo the proposed new starting lineup would beat the current lineup now.

Let's throw Sully into the starting lineup, since Collins is maybe the worst veteran in the NBA.

KG / Sully / Pierce / Bradley / Rondo

vs.

Horford / Hansborough / Brewer / Bradley / Teague

I'd take KG over Horford, Pierce over Brewer, and Rondo over Teague.  The gap between Hansborough and Sully isn't so big that it makes up for those other three advantages.  Heck, their production is currently extremely similar, and Sullinger has a ton of room to grow.

Kg is not better than Horford this year. Look at Horford's stats. Atl is not one of the teams for nothing. Pierce offensively is better than Brewer but not defensively.  And though Rondo may have a slight edge on Teague, some teams would rather take Teague because of his shooting ability alone.

Anyways Roy , the blow up strategy is mostly a fun, not realistic option. Only way that happens too, is if Ainge and Rivers are fired in the same instance.
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: Tr1boy on January 03, 2013, 07:51:07 PM
I think they have already started. The last game against Memphis was an encouraging step forward and I think they will continue to improve over the next few games.

The main thing for me right now is Rondo getting fully healthy. As soon as that happens, they're in business. Getting Jason Collins out of the starting lineup would be great also. I have no idea why Doc insists on keeping him there. It's the massive mistake.

If the whole team can play from start to finish like they did last game in the 4th quarter vs memphis, things will get back to normal.  The bench especially has to be more aggressive. Maybe blitzing the opposing ball handler coming through the half court should be the way defense is played on every possession.  On the downside there is a higher chance of burning out your players.
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on January 03, 2013, 08:09:29 PM
I just think that nothing will happen until Febuary 21 - if then.

Give AB a few weeks to get his game legs back under him, and then let's see where we're at.

February 21st?

wow.

talk about too little too late. at the rate we are going we will be WAAAAAAY out of the playoff race by then.
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: kozlodoev on January 03, 2013, 09:41:24 PM
I just think that nothing will happen until Febuary 21 - if then.

Give AB a few weeks to get his game legs back under him, and then let's see where we're at.
By this time we may be solidly out of the playoff picture already, so what does it matter?

Or, we could be in the midst of a significant winning streak.

One of these days, CelticsBlog will just implode upon itself with doom and gloom.
What doom and gloom? What are you talking about?

If we're winning at the same clip until "Bradley gets his legs under him" -- which I would guess is the assumption -- we'll be indeed out of the playoff picture.

Why would this post suggest anything else? Is there a need to give Bradley leeway if we're in the midst of a winning streak?
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: Cman on January 03, 2013, 09:43:59 PM
Danny will make a move when he sees a deal he likes. I really doubt he will trade bc the team is performing badly. Thankfully, he seems to have more of a long term view of things.
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: raynman on January 03, 2013, 09:51:30 PM
At least a minor trade or coaching changed should have happened already!
I don't know what the heck Ainge is thinking.. Maybe showcasing Bradley (and Melo) a bit before trading them?

Even 5 year olds know that this just ain't working , let alone win a championship!
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on January 03, 2013, 10:19:37 PM
I just think that nothing will happen until Febuary 21 - if then.

Give AB a few weeks to get his game legs back under him, and then let's see where we're at.
By this time we may be solidly out of the playoff picture already, so what does it matter?

Or, we could be in the midst of a significant winning streak.

One of these days, CelticsBlog will just implode upon itself with doom and gloom.
What doom and gloom? What are you talking about?

If we're winning at the same clip until "Bradley gets his legs under him" -- which I would guess is the assumption -- we'll be indeed out of the playoff picture.

Why would this post suggest anything else? Is there a need to give Bradley leeway if we're in the midst of a winning streak?

The "doom and gloom" I'm speaking of is your point of view that the C's "could" continue winning at the same clip they have so far this season - even with AB.

A bit over-dramatic? Sure. But this is CelticsBlog, right?

For me? I choose to want to give this team a while to see "IF" AB being back is "really" the salve this team needs. That is why I chose "wait until the 21st of Feb" option.

I'm believing, on pure hope, that BOS can get it right over the next few weeks and reel off some win streak(s) in conjunction with AB's return. By doing that, they will play themselves right back into contender status, I believe.
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: ScottHow on January 03, 2013, 10:41:47 PM
Hopefully sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: Tr1boy on January 03, 2013, 11:19:25 PM
Its now or never and doc needs to stop experimenting and put out what has worked the best so far/best he has talentwise. Minimize min for those that have not been effective

Starting lineup -
C- Sully, PF - KG, SF - PP , SG- AV, PG - Rondo
Bench
C- Bass , PF - Green, SF - Lee, SG - Terry, Pg - Barbosa

Just let it flow this way and see what happens before trade deadline.  You have to utilize pressure defense that has worked so well for the celts in the past. The 2nd unit while small, should have more speed to frustrate opponents  on the defensive end  which should result in turnovers/steals for fast break points. Barbosa is nicknamed the blurr for a reason
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: Celtics18 on January 03, 2013, 11:31:06 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FUXeg-elgM

A Change is Gonna Come
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: moiso on January 04, 2013, 01:33:01 AM
Hopefully things turn around. But if not , at this rate, when is something going to change?? I can see something happening as soon as we lose the next three and worse case by trade deadline. The bottom line is, you can't sign KG and Pierce to all star level salary figures plus generously pay 4 bench players, only to not make it into the playoffs.  Its just not acceptable

Four changes i see happening (from likely to less likely)

1. Don't touch the core and trade for a center - Gorat, Okafor as example. Likely it will take one of Sully, Melo and a 1st round pick. Danny will have to overpay for this quick but possible "glue" solution

2. Paul Pierce is traded for picks and youth. Give Jeff Green a chance to start. Also frees up money next year to sign Josh Smith.

3. Fire Rivers. Would our team be better if Greg Popovich was coaching instead? Rivers is an ok coach that has had the luxury to have hof players KG, Pierce, Ray Allen. But when you don't have an optimal team, Rivers can only get you 500 or less. San Antonio has key players that are as old and injured as the ones on our team. They also have several no name guys pops developed that have done the job. No wasting millions of dollars

4. Total Blow up. Say we lose next to IND all the way until we lose to the Bobcats. Is this considered a one player away issue? A coaching issue? To me this could mean a total blow up necessary to move the franchise forward. I mean see you later Ainge, Rivers, KG, Pierce and Rondo.

realistic team after blowup
Scal as new coach, Trade Rondo, KG, Sully to ATL for Horford and Jeff Teague,  trade Pierce and Lee to Den for Corey Brewer, Mozgov, Chandler, 1st round pick, Jeff Green to IND for Tyler Hansborough, 1st round pick + salary fill in, Jason Terry to OKC for Reggie Jackson + salary fill in

New lineup
Starting - Horford, Hansborough, Brewer, Bradley, Teague
Bench - Mozgov, Melo, Bass, Chandler, Jackson

Your different scenarios are pretty interesting, but that is the worst team you could possible construct. If it is blow it up and acquire those players for our current ones, or keep what we have and enjoy the show, I am standing pat. The only decent player you have there is Horford and all of the draft picks would be quite low...

Teague is a very very good pg. In some ways better than Rondo the way he can shoot and score in clutch. I think Hansborough is going to become the 2nd coming of David Lee. A late bloomer but eventually a near all star.  He has been putting together quite a bit of 20 and 10 games this year. He just needs a chance to start. Bradley is an amazing defender at guard and Brewer like Hansborough is really coming along. He couldn't shoot with much consistancy earlier in his career and now will shoot it in the 4th quarter, with hands in his face and make it. He is also a fantastic defender and has a relationship with Horford in that they both won a championship at college level before the NBA.

We would be young, athletic, and have defensive shutdown potential.
David Lee can play, Hansborough sucks.  Lee averaged a double double in his second year.  I wouldn't call that a late bloomer.
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: sdceltsfan on January 04, 2013, 03:54:19 AM
Hopefully things turn around. But if not , at this rate, when is something going to change?? I can see something happening as soon as we lose the next three and worse case by trade deadline. The bottom line is, you can't sign KG and Pierce to all star level salary figures plus generously pay 4 bench players, only to not make it into the playoffs.  Its just not acceptable

Four changes i see happening (from likely to less likely)

1. Don't touch the core and trade for a center - Gorat, Okafor as example. Likely it will take one of Sully, Melo and a 1st round pick. Danny will have to overpay for this quick but possible "glue" solution

2. Paul Pierce is traded for picks and youth. Give Jeff Green a chance to start. Also frees up money next year to sign Josh Smith.

3. Fire Rivers. Would our team be better if Greg Popovich was coaching instead? Rivers is an ok coach that has had the luxury to have hof players KG, Pierce, Ray Allen. But when you don't have an optimal team, Rivers can only get you 500 or less. San Antonio has key players that are as old and injured as the ones on our team. They also have several no name guys pops developed that have done the job. No wasting millions of dollars

4. Total Blow up. Say we lose next to IND all the way until we lose to the Bobcats. Is this considered a one player away issue? A coaching issue? To me this could mean a total blow up necessary to move the franchise forward. I mean see you later Ainge, Rivers, KG, Pierce and Rondo.

realistic team after blowup
Scal as new coach, Trade Rondo, KG, Sully to ATL for Horford and Jeff Teague,  trade Pierce and Lee to Den for Corey Brewer, Mozgov, Chandler, 1st round pick, Jeff Green to IND for Tyler Hansborough, 1st round pick + salary fill in, Jason Terry to OKC for Reggie Jackson + salary fill in

New lineup
Starting - Horford, Hansborough, Brewer, Bradley, Teague
Bench - Mozgov, Melo, Bass, Chandler, Jackson


BATH SALTS ANYONE???

What are you mainlining man? We are trading our 4 best players and a prospect (sully) for Al Horford and a collection of underachievers, and no picks of any substance.

Plus freaking Scal as coach.

Instant laughing stock of the NBA
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: lightspeed5 on January 04, 2013, 04:14:11 AM
cousins is coming.
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: Celtics4ever on January 04, 2013, 07:45:50 AM
I think if there are changes then they will start on:

Jan 15th

it's a trade deadline for certain signed players.
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: Tr1boy on January 04, 2013, 07:50:19 AM
Hopefully things turn around. But if not , at this rate, when is something going to change?? I can see something happening as soon as we lose the next three and worse case by trade deadline. The bottom line is, you can't sign KG and Pierce to all star level salary figures plus generously pay 4 bench players, only to not make it into the playoffs.  Its just not acceptable

Four changes i see happening (from likely to less likely)

1. Don't touch the core and trade for a center - Gorat, Okafor as example. Likely it will take one of Sully, Melo and a 1st round pick. Danny will have to overpay for this quick but possible "glue" solution

2. Paul Pierce is traded for picks and youth. Give Jeff Green a chance to start. Also frees up money next year to sign Josh Smith.

3. Fire Rivers. Would our team be better if Greg Popovich was coaching instead? Rivers is an ok coach that has had the luxury to have hof players KG, Pierce, Ray Allen. But when you don't have an optimal team, Rivers can only get you 500 or less. San Antonio has key players that are as old and injured as the ones on our team. They also have several no name guys pops developed that have done the job. No wasting millions of dollars

4. Total Blow up. Say we lose next to IND all the way until we lose to the Bobcats. Is this considered a one player away issue? A coaching issue? To me this could mean a total blow up necessary to move the franchise forward. I mean see you later Ainge, Rivers, KG, Pierce and Rondo.

realistic team after blowup
Scal as new coach, Trade Rondo, KG, Sully to ATL for Horford and Jeff Teague,  trade Pierce and Lee to Den for Corey Brewer, Mozgov, Chandler, 1st round pick, Jeff Green to IND for Tyler Hansborough, 1st round pick + salary fill in, Jason Terry to OKC for Reggie Jackson + salary fill in

New lineup
Starting - Horford, Hansborough, Brewer, Bradley, Teague
Bench - Mozgov, Melo, Bass, Chandler, Jackson


BATH SALTS ANYONE???

What are you mainlining man? We are trading our 4 best players and a prospect (sully) for Al Horford and a collection of underachievers, and no picks of any substance.

Plus freaking Scal as coach.

Instant laughing stock of the NBA

What is wrong with scal? He was one of the smartest players on the team, and was pretty much an assistant for doc and thibs the last few years.

we won the championship 3 years ago , not last year. We don't have a collection of top all stars to get in return top all stars. Sully is a good rookie but not the next coming of boozer (not yet anyways).

- Teague - imo is a top pg in the league. Am i missing something here?
- Horford - a top center in the league
- Brewer - was never considered a top offensive machine. He was drafted for his defense and ability to finish on the fast break. Now he has added a steady three. The guy is brutal to play against
- Wilson Chandler or Jeff Green - same players imo
- Mozgov - I rather have then Bass.
- Hansborough - imo needs a chance. David Lee did not pull a proper double double in his 2nd year. He played only 58 games. It wasn't until his fourth year , he was a double double machine. Hansborough doesn't need or can't pull down double digit rebounds consistently when you don't start plus have hibbert as your center. 


Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: nostar on January 04, 2013, 08:50:47 AM
1. Don't touch the core and trade for a center - Gorat, Okafor as example. Likely it will take one of Sully, Melo and a 1st round pick. Danny will have to overpay for this quick but possible "glue" solution

I agree this is the most likely solution. I also think it's possible we need a backup point guard. We'll see in the coming month what gets done.


2. Paul Pierce is traded for picks and youth. Give Jeff Green a chance to start. Also frees up money next year to sign Josh Smith.

Probably not as many picks and/or young players as you'd think. Pierce has a big contract with another year on the end. I know there is an option but I'm not sure that works post-trade. I really don't know. I also can't really see where he fits in on a championship contender. The only team I have heard that makes even a sliver of sense is Golden State and I'm not sure how much they sink into 1 or 2 years of Pierce as far as trading young guys or picks.

3. Fire Rivers. Would our team be better if Greg Popovich was coaching instead? Rivers is an ok coach that has had the luxury to have hof players KG, Pierce, Ray Allen. But when you don't have an optimal team, Rivers can only get you 500 or less. San Antonio has key players that are as old and injured as the ones on our team. They also have several no name guys pops developed that have done the job. No wasting millions of dollars.

No. This is silly. The Popovich argument is silly. He's not available and there is no history with him here. Doc has the locker room. There is really nothing here as far as ideas.

Scal as new coach

R O F L. Love Scal. This is a goofy idea.

Trade Rondo, KG, Sully to ATL for Horford and Jeff Teague

That is an absolutely awful trade for the Celtics. Atlanta should do it as soon as the words leave Ainge's mouth. Horford isn't a top center, he's just not. He's actually not really a center. Teague is extremely unproven. He's averaging 13/6 on 43% shooting this season. That is pedestrian. Rondo could fetch a lot more in my opinion. The thing I liked was trading Rondo and KG in the same blockbuster. That would not only be interesting but might also be worth more because their chemistry.

  trade Pierce and Lee to Den for Corey Brewer, Mozgov, Chandler, 1st round pick

You know I'd have trouble not saying yes to that even outside of a rebuild. Maybe not for a 2013 1st rounder. 2014 would be extremely tempting. Unfortunately Denver doesn't want Pierce at all.

Jeff Green to IND for Tyler Hansborough, 1st round pick + salary fill in

That is interesting an again I'd consider doing that around the deadline if only to get out of the contract. The problem is that the Pacers have an overpaid SF in Granger and also a young talented prospect in Paul George. They don't want Green. George is playing great too.

Jason Terry to OKC for Reggie Jackson + salary fill in

I'd ask more for Terry. I think he'd be better in OKC and they'd be smart to trade for him. I'd ask for PJIII or Jeremy Lamb. It would be tough to make the $ work and not get too little but here is another idea:

Terry and Sully/Melo (not both)
for
Perkins

That fits point #1 pretty well.
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: slamtheking on January 04, 2013, 09:29:48 AM
1. Don't touch the core and trade for a center - Gorat, Okafor as example. Likely it will take one of Sully, Melo and a 1st round pick. Danny will have to overpay for this quick but possible "glue" solution

I agree this is the most likely solution. I also think it's possible we need a backup point guard. We'll see in the coming month what gets done.
Agree, this would probably be the type of trade we see mid-season.  if this type of deal doesn't fix things this year, I'd expect a few more in the offseason to get players that fit together better.

2. Paul Pierce is traded for picks and youth. Give Jeff Green a chance to start. Also frees up money next year to sign Josh Smith.

Probably not as many picks and/or young players as you'd think. Pierce has a big contract with another year on the end. I know there is an option but I'm not sure that works post-trade. I really don't know. I also can't really see where he fits in on a championship contender. The only team I have heard that makes even a sliver of sense is Golden State and I'm not sure how much they sink into 1 or 2 years of Pierce as far as trading young guys or picks.
PP is only going to bring in just so much based on his play this year.  maybe a couple of low first rounders or a young prospect and a pick.  Moving PP to let Green start, that's a horrible reason to trade PP.  he's still more effective than Green. As for the piece about cap space for Josh Smith, the C's don't get anywhere near enough cap space to sign any FA that's looking for close to max $.

3. Fire Rivers. Would our team be better if Greg Popovich was coaching instead? Rivers is an ok coach that has had the luxury to have hof players KG, Pierce, Ray Allen. But when you don't have an optimal team, Rivers can only get you 500 or less. San Antonio has key players that are as old and injured as the ones on our team. They also have several no name guys pops developed that have done the job. No wasting millions of dollars.

No. This is silly. The Popovich argument is silly. He's not available and there is no history with him here. Doc has the locker room. There is really nothing here as far as ideas.
Never been a fan of Rivers so I wouldn't miss him.  His supposed skills at motivating players have been non-existent since Sheed hit town and infected the team with his "only the playoffs matter" attitude.  Ainge should line up a good new coach before firing Doc though.

Scal as new coach

R O F L. Love Scal. This is a goofy idea.
Scal is enjoyable as a color man on the games but no way I'd hire him as a head coach--until he's proven himself as a coach at some level at a bare minimum.  A team of vets needs an experienced coach to make them productive.  Scal isn't the answer here.

Trade Rondo, KG, Sully to ATL for Horford and Jeff Teague

That is an absolutely awful trade for the Celtics. Atlanta should do it as soon as the words leave Ainge's mouth. Horford isn't a top center, he's just not. He's actually not really a center. Teague is extremely unproven. He's averaging 13/6 on 43% shooting this season. That is pedestrian. Rondo could fetch a lot more in my opinion. The thing I liked was trading Rondo and KG in the same blockbuster. That would not only be interesting but might also be worth more because their chemistry.
this deal is so bad I'm trying not to vomit.  Rondo alone would be worth Horford and Teague.  They're 2 solid players but not a top 5 PG.  I've always wanted Horford on the C's but not in this deal.  He's not a Center but a PF being forced to play there.  Teague is an adequate PG, not spectacular.  more of a combo guard in reality.  The thought of adding KG AND Sully to this deal is just mindbogglingly bad for the C's.

  trade Pierce and Lee to Den for Corey Brewer, Mozgov, Chandler, 1st round pick

You know I'd have trouble not saying yes to that even outside of a rebuild. Maybe not for a 2013 1st rounder. 2014 would be extremely tempting. Unfortunately Denver doesn't want Pierce at all.
Not sold on Brewer.  Thought he'd be a much better player out of college.  Now he seems to have improved to the point he's not a complete liability on offense.  he's a taller Lee with less offense (based on Lee's output prior to joining the C's).  Mozgov is intriguing but let's face it, he's not getting big minutes in Denver for a reason.  Chandler and a low pick help sweeten the deal but I'd have to really think about this one.  I wouldn't do this one in a vacuum -- would have to be part of an overall plan to totally revamp the team.

Jeff Green to IND for Tyler Hansborough, 1st round pick + salary fill in

That is interesting an again I'd consider doing that around the deadline if only to get out of the contract. The problem is that the Pacers have an overpaid SF in Granger and also a young talented prospect in Paul George. They don't want Green. George is playing great too.
not enough for Green.  Hansbrough, though tough and active, is a bench guy at best.  any thoughts that he's going to break out with playing time are hugely speculative at best.  if he was that good, they wouldn't have felt the need to sign David West.  Green's the better player by far and an Indy 1st rounder isn't nearly enough to make up the difference in talent.

Jason Terry to OKC for Reggie Jackson + salary fill in

I'd ask more for Terry. I think he'd be better in OKC and they'd be smart to trade for him. I'd ask for PJIII or Jeremy Lamb. It would be tough to make the $ work and not get too little but here is another idea:

Terry and Sully/Melo (not both)
for
Perkins

That fits point #1 pretty well.
moving Terry for a prospect is an idea I like but I don't see the monies working out.  moving him with Sully or Melo to get back Perk is not a good deal.  I love Perk but he's not what he once was.  JET for a good prospect like PJIII or Lamb is preferable but I can't see OKC's need to get him.  They'll need cheap, good, young talent and that's what I think those prospects will become.  Someone's got to step into Harden's shoes in the next year or two and allow them to keep Ibaka and be under the luxury tax too.
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: sdceltsfan on January 04, 2013, 02:31:21 PM
Hopefully things turn around. But if not , at this rate, when is something going to change?? I can see something happening as soon as we lose the next three and worse case by trade deadline. The bottom line is, you can't sign KG and Pierce to all star level salary figures plus generously pay 4 bench players, only to not make it into the playoffs.  Its just not acceptable

Four changes i see happening (from likely to less likely)

1. Don't touch the core and trade for a center - Gorat, Okafor as example. Likely it will take one of Sully, Melo and a 1st round pick. Danny will have to overpay for this quick but possible "glue" solution

2. Paul Pierce is traded for picks and youth. Give Jeff Green a chance to start. Also frees up money next year to sign Josh Smith.

3. Fire Rivers. Would our team be better if Greg Popovich was coaching instead? Rivers is an ok coach that has had the luxury to have hof players KG, Pierce, Ray Allen. But when you don't have an optimal team, Rivers can only get you 500 or less. San Antonio has key players that are as old and injured as the ones on our team. They also have several no name guys pops developed that have done the job. No wasting millions of dollars

4. Total Blow up. Say we lose next to IND all the way until we lose to the Bobcats. Is this considered a one player away issue? A coaching issue? To me this could mean a total blow up necessary to move the franchise forward. I mean see you later Ainge, Rivers, KG, Pierce and Rondo.

realistic team after blowup
Scal as new coach, Trade Rondo, KG, Sully to ATL for Horford and Jeff Teague,  trade Pierce and Lee to Den for Corey Brewer, Mozgov, Chandler, 1st round pick, Jeff Green to IND for Tyler Hansborough, 1st round pick + salary fill in, Jason Terry to OKC for Reggie Jackson + salary fill in

New lineup
Starting - Horford, Hansborough, Brewer, Bradley, Teague
Bench - Mozgov, Melo, Bass, Chandler, Jackson


BATH SALTS ANYONE???

What are you mainlining man? We are trading our 4 best players and a prospect (sully) for Al Horford and a collection of underachievers, and no picks of any substance.

Plus freaking Scal as coach.

Instant laughing stock of the NBA

What is wrong with scal? He was one of the smartest players on the team, and was pretty much an assistant for doc and thibs the last few years.

we won the championship 3 years ago , not last year. We don't have a collection of top all stars to get in return top all stars. Sully is a good rookie but not the next coming of boozer (not yet anyways).

- Teague - imo is a top pg in the league. Am i missing something here?
- Horford - a top center in the league
- Brewer - was never considered a top offensive machine. He was drafted for his defense and ability to finish on the fast break. Now he has added a steady three. The guy is brutal to play against
- Wilson Chandler or Jeff Green - same players imo
- Mozgov - I rather have then Bass.
- Hansborough - imo needs a chance. David Lee did not pull a proper double double in his 2nd year. He played only 58 games. It wasn't until his fourth year , he was a double double machine. Hansborough doesn't need or can't pull down double digit rebounds consistently when you don't start plus have hibbert as your center.


Teague isn't top 10 PG. He is playing his best season now though, so upside potential, I can agree.

Horford is the only true and proven commodity. However, not worth selling the entire farm for.

Brewer has peaked, and not consistent.

Jeff Green > Wilson Chandler all day......we don't know how to use Green

Mozgov? Psycho T???  ??? Not sure what you're seeing there.

SCAL???? Do you really think NBA players have a ton of respect for Scal, who was never a true starter, or even remotely close to dominant at any point in his career? He is a perennial assistant coach for at least a decade to gain experience and respect for his lackluster NBA career.

I agree with you that most of our individual players are not currently at their peak values......Rondo is probably the only one who is close to his true/peak value. With that said, your assessed value seems awfully low. You essentially want us to be the Atlanta Hawks + Psycho T + Brewer + Mosgov with freaking Scal blazing a trail of losses.

NEXT IDEA.
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: CoachBo on January 04, 2013, 02:37:20 PM
Hopefully things turn around. But if not , at this rate, when is something going to change?? I can see something happening as soon as we lose the next three and worse case by trade deadline. The bottom line is, you can't sign KG and Pierce to all star level salary figures plus generously pay 4 bench players, only to not make it into the playoffs.  Its just not acceptable

Four changes i see happening (from likely to less likely)

1. Don't touch the core and trade for a center - Gorat, Okafor as example. Likely it will take one of Sully, Melo and a 1st round pick. Danny will have to overpay for this quick but possible "glue" solution

2. Paul Pierce is traded for picks and youth. Give Jeff Green a chance to start. Also frees up money next year to sign Josh Smith.

3. Fire Rivers. Would our team be better if Greg Popovich was coaching instead? Rivers is an ok coach that has had the luxury to have hof players KG, Pierce, Ray Allen. But when you don't have an optimal team, Rivers can only get you 500 or less. San Antonio has key players that are as old and injured as the ones on our team. They also have several no name guys pops developed that have done the job. No wasting millions of dollars

4. Total Blow up. Say we lose next to IND all the way until we lose to the Bobcats. Is this considered a one player away issue? A coaching issue? To me this could mean a total blow up necessary to move the franchise forward. I mean see you later Ainge, Rivers, KG, Pierce and Rondo.

realistic team after blowup
Scal as new coach, Trade Rondo, KG, Sully to ATL for Horford and Jeff Teague,  trade Pierce and Lee to Den for Corey Brewer, Mozgov, Chandler, 1st round pick, Jeff Green to IND for Tyler Hansborough, 1st round pick + salary fill in, Jason Terry to OKC for Reggie Jackson + salary fill in

New lineup
Starting - Horford, Hansborough, Brewer, Bradley, Teague
Bench - Mozgov, Melo, Bass, Chandler, Jackson


BATH SALTS ANYONE???

What are you mainlining man? We are trading our 4 best players and a prospect (sully) for Al Horford and a collection of underachievers, and no picks of any substance.

Plus freaking Scal as coach.

Instant laughing stock of the NBA

What is wrong with scal? He was one of the smartest players on the team, and was pretty much an assistant for doc and thibs the last few years.

we won the championship 3 years ago , not last year. We don't have a collection of top all stars to get in return top all stars. Sully is a good rookie but not the next coming of boozer (not yet anyways).

- Teague - imo is a top pg in the league. Am i missing something here?
- Horford - a top center in the league
- Brewer - was never considered a top offensive machine. He was drafted for his defense and ability to finish on the fast break. Now he has added a steady three. The guy is brutal to play against
- Wilson Chandler or Jeff Green - same players imo
- Mozgov - I rather have then Bass.
- Hansborough - imo needs a chance. David Lee did not pull a proper double double in his 2nd year. He played only 58 games. It wasn't until his fourth year , he was a double double machine. Hansborough doesn't need or can't pull down double digit rebounds consistently when you don't start plus have hibbert as your center.


Teague isn't top 10 PG. He is playing his best season now though, so upside potential, I can agree.

Horford is the only true and proven commodity. However, not worth selling the entire farm for.

Brewer has peaked, and not consistent.

Jeff Green > Wilson Chandler all day......we don't know how to use Green

Mozgov? Psycho T???  ??? Not sure what you're seeing there.

SCAL???? Do you really think NBA players have a ton of respect for Scal, who was never a true starter, or even remotely close to dominant at any point in his career? He is a perennial assistant coach for at least a decade to gain experience and respect for his lackluster NBA career.

I agree with you that most of our individual players are not currently at their peak values......Rondo is probably the only one who is close to his true/peak value. With that said, your assessed value seems awfully low. You essentially want us to be the Atlanta Hawks + Psycho T + Brewer + Mosgov with freaking Scal blazing a trail of losses.

NEXT IDEA.

TP to SD. This thread makes me feel like I've landed on Real GM again.
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: Tr1boy on January 04, 2013, 07:28:25 PM
I just want to ask "realistic" celtic fans, what do you think we could get back for kg, pp and rondo?

I mean you guys think we can get the world back for them or something. Be objective . Also Scal turned down an assistant job with the bulls to be a color commentator. If he had little to no respect, who in their right mind would hire this guy to be a color commentator?  You got to know your stuff

When you hear him , he knows what he is talking about. He was pretty much the only bench guy, in every key 4th quarter time out to actively participate in huddles and listen, even though he was not going to play. Yeah he was never the scoring champ, but was Doc ever? Was Dwayne Casey ever?

The other thing is, when you blow up a team, guys like Phil Jackson, Jeff Van Gundy are not going to die to want to coach your team. Its going to be a good asst or a has been dying to get back in the game. I rather try Scal, who knows the org, knows how to execute plays, and is good with young players.

Going back to my blow up trade idea, getting Horford and Teague for Rondo, KG, Sully would be a fair trade. Def the type of shake up you may need going forward. Atl is not dumb to get a 36 year old guy who might retire on them after this season. And rondo is not worth both Teague and Horford alone
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: Who on January 04, 2013, 07:35:10 PM
I just want to ask "realistic" celtic fans, what do you think we could get back for kg, pp and rondo?
Garnett and Pierce = very little. Maybe some improved cap flexibility and a so-so prospect (limited upside) or late first round pick for each one of them.

Rondo has terrific value. He could net a top 15 player in return. Or if going for youth, a top five draft pick plus several others assets. Another quality asset and some low level young ones.
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: Tr1boy on January 04, 2013, 07:36:12 PM
"That is interesting an again I'd consider doing that around the deadline if only to get out of the contract. The problem is that the Pacers have an overpaid SF in Granger and also a young talented prospect in Paul George. They don't want Green. George is playing great too."

West is a FA next year and the pacers will try all their best to trade Granger by the trade deadline this year. The reason i think Indiana would be intrigued with Green is that, he had an excellent relationship with Hibbert and almost helped Georgetown win it all 5 years ago.

Also Green is >> than Wilson Chandler? Really?
Look at their career stats, and its almost identical. I actually like Chandler's mid range game better. Better dribbler also. But other than that, almost the same player, with similar size and athleticism.
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: Who on January 04, 2013, 07:40:03 PM
I think Scal has good coaching potential. I think he'll be a head coach in the NBA someday and very likely to be a good one. He had a lot of qualities as a player that I believe correlate well with coaching success.

That said, I am not dumping Doc to take a chance on Scal though. Doc is a high level coach.
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: Who on January 04, 2013, 07:43:32 PM
Also Green is >> than Wilson Chandler? Really?
Look at their career stats, and its almost identical. I actually like Chandler's mid range game better. Better dribbler also. But other than that, almost the same player, with similar size and athleticism.
I think W.Chandler and J.Green are very similar talent wise.

I'd give W.Chandler the edge because his defense and rebounding are far more consistent than J.Green's defense/rebounding. Until J.Green starts putting more effort in on that end of the court, he is the inferior player to Wilson Chandler. But J.Green could match W.Chandler if J.Green actually bothered to put in the work as a defender/rebounder.
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: Tr1boy on January 04, 2013, 07:49:26 PM
I think Scal has good coaching potential. I think he'll be a head coach in the NBA someday and very likely to be a good one.

I am not dumping Doc to take a chance on Scal though. Doc is a high level coach.

I'm sorry Who, but Doc is definitely not a high level coach. He is avg to just above average. Greg Popovich is high level.

Greg Popovich has developed more no name players/assistant coaches in this league than any coach that i've seen before. He doesn't take crap and will bench you, it doesn't matter if your duncan. I don't think SA has been through a losing streak greater than 3 games since he has been their coach.

Doc on the other hand, lets the big three manage the game. Never holds guys like Pierce accountable , for jacking up endless amount of crap shots these years. Doesn't know how to develop players. How many have been drafted and left our team in the last 4 years?? And are no longer even in the nba??
Title: Re: At this rate at what point will changes occur??
Post by: Who on January 04, 2013, 07:56:20 PM
(1) No way am I trading Rondo for Horford and Teague. Rondo is a much better piece to build around than Horford.

(2) I would rather look for cap flexibility for Pierce than take W.Chandler's multi-year contract + C.Brewer and T.Mozgov.

(3) I do like Mozgov. With strong coaching and player development, Mozgov could be a steal. A lot of upside to that guy. Needs regular minutes and strong coaching though.

(4) I wouldn't compare Corey Brewer to Courtney Lee because C.Brewer is a far superior possession creator. He uses those long arms so well. So active. He can rebound the ball well and he can force turnovers at an elite level. His superior size and length also makes him a much better man-to-man defender. Gives him more range defensively too. A more gifted player than C.Lee.

(5) I don't rate Tyler Hansbrough highly. He is too small and too limited as a defender/rebounder to be worth starter's minutes. I do like him as a backup PF though and think he should be regain his performance level from earlier in his career. He should be a 10-15 year pro in the NBA. Very smart reserve PF. Limited talent/upside.

(6) I really like Doc Rivers. I'd really loathe to let him go. Doc is part of the solution long term. Not the problem.

(7) Cap flexibility and a first would be a nice trade for Jeff Green if rebuilding. He may end up having more value letting him start and play 35mpg alongside Rondo with nobody else around to take shots from him though (say 16-18ppg, 5-6rpg). They could keep him for a year and maybe get a much better trade value in return then.