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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: jpotter33 on November 05, 2018, 11:37:59 PM

Title: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: jpotter33 on November 05, 2018, 11:37:59 PM
I really wish the G League was utilized more often by the NBA for its main guys and didn't have the stigma attached to it. The G League would be perfect for someone like Hayward to get his rhythm and confidence back, let alone his explosiveness and conditioning, because he simply isn't ready to be a steady contributor out there on the floor right now.

Tonight we saw him look very frustrated and down on himself for missing shots that he usually makes, which worries me now, as that will just impede his growth and ultimately hurt the team when he's out there if he lacks confidence in himself.

Coming back from such a major injury, the G League is the perfect context for someone like Hayward to build himself back up. Of course, it will never happen, because there's a stigma attached to a max-level player going to the G League for some reason, but I think a month down there with him dominating the competition would be great for him.
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: jpotter33 on November 05, 2018, 11:40:06 PM
I'm not a baseball guy, but don't they use the minor leagues in a similar way for guys coming back from injuries?
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: liam on November 05, 2018, 11:43:51 PM
Hayward was a +4 tonight 3-7 with 8 points and 9 rebounds and two assists, the only bench player who wasn't a negative tonight was Robert Williams and he only played 2 minutes.
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: ozgod on November 05, 2018, 11:46:22 PM
 One thing I’ve noticed is that his body language tents to get negative once he misses a few shots or turns the ball over. I imagine it must be frustrating having a horrific injury and then being a shell of your former self that a team paid 30m a year for and not knowing if you will ever get back to where you were. But he can’t think like that he has to keep thinking happy thoughts.
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: GreenEnvy on November 06, 2018, 12:14:49 AM
I honestly feel like only Celtics fans would say this about one of their stars.

It’s such a long season and everyone wants to blame him. First it was removing him from the starting lineup, now it’s removing him from the team altogether.

The difference between the minors in baseball and the G-League is that they work to get their timing down. The G-League isn’t nearly as fast as the NBA, the players aren’t nearly as skilled. Baseball players can still get their timing back on 95mph pitches at any level in the minors, and still field pretty much exactly the same. Likewise, pitchers rehab down in the minors because it doesn’t matter if they get hit or not, they are just working on mechanics, location, and arm strength.

Imagine an NBA player getting seriously injured in the G-League? Does it really matter if he’s hitting mildly contested shots that would be well-covered in the NBA? I really don’t see how the G-League offers any more benefits for a player of Hayward’s magnitude than just practicing with the team and playing through it.

Other than Kyrie of late and Morris, nobody is immune to criticism of their play at times this season. Hayward has had some good games and some bad ones, but so has Brown, Tatum, Smart, Horford, etc.


Really not that concerned about Hayward or our 6-4 start. The hot takes here have been ridiculous, and expected.
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: Chris22 on November 06, 2018, 12:52:08 AM
Morris returned to his old self tonight. Oh, well....
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: gouki88 on November 06, 2018, 01:14:42 AM
Hayward was a +4 tonight 3-7 with 8 points and 9 rebounds and two assists, the only bench player who wasn't a negative tonight was Robert Williams and he only played 2 minutes.
Yeah, Hayward killing us is completely out of touch. He has been no worse than Rozier, Tatum or Brown. He’s just paid more, but he also has an excuse for his poor start.
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: RodyTur10 on November 06, 2018, 06:10:37 AM
Hayward was a +4 tonight 3-7 with 8 points and 9 rebounds and two assists, the only bench player who wasn't a negative tonight was Robert Williams and he only played 2 minutes.

That was mainly due to the second quarter. When the starters got off to a great start Stevens went with a second unit Rozier/Smart/Ojeleye/Morris/Baynes which couldn't sustain the offense with Rozier playing terribly and too few scorers and shooters. I thought that was a bad rotation by Stevens. You just have to hope that Morris gets red hot, since otherwise points won't come easy.

We had a 15 point lead and gave it away. You can't allow that. I think a more balanced rotation woud be the cure.
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: IDreamCeltics on November 06, 2018, 06:56:40 AM
Hayward was a +4 tonight 3-7 with 8 points and 9 rebounds and two assists, the only bench player who wasn't a negative tonight was Robert Williams and he only played 2 minutes.
Yeah, Hayward killing us is completely out of touch. He has been no worse than Rozier, Tatum or Brown. He’s just paid more, but he also has an excuse for his poor start.

If we're dealing in reality and not self-delusion it was easy to see this coming.  Hayward essentially went from rehab to pre-season with no training in between to figure out his post-injury body.

Naturally, with an overabundance of wings the Celtics rushed him back onto the court and shattered his confidance and possibly that of Jaylen Brown as well.

His career arc is basically identical to that of Wally Sczerbiak now.

And the curse of Isaiah continues...
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: ozgod on November 06, 2018, 09:10:38 AM
Hayward was a +4 tonight 3-7 with 8 points and 9 rebounds and two assists, the only bench player who wasn't a negative tonight was Robert Williams and he only played 2 minutes.
Yeah, Hayward killing us is completely out of touch. He has been no worse than Rozier, Tatum or Brown. He’s just paid more, but he also has an excuse for his poor start.

Maybe it's because we're comparing current Hayward to historical Hayward. Current Hayward is still contributing but he's a long way away from historical Hayward, so people are harder on him.
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: apc on November 06, 2018, 09:14:51 AM
He is not great right now, and i complained and will complain every game until he gets better, BUT we are doing the right thing giving him the minutes in real games. 
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: cman88 on November 06, 2018, 09:19:24 AM
the question is. Is it a physical problem or mental? It's not like he lost his shot while he was out. And we see glimpses of the old hayward at times.

I think you need to let him work through it. because if we want to go deep in June you need Hayward performing at a top level.
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: seancally on November 06, 2018, 09:23:06 AM
Yeah, and maybe we can give Terry Rozier G-League minutes so he cannget all that shot-jacking out of his system. On this team he’s a bench player and he needs to get used to that. He wants to be big-time, and thats understandable with a contract coming up, but his contributions have been more forced and inconsistent than Hayward’s in my view.

The team needs TIME to gel. Hayward has been playing right around 25 minutes a game. Peak Hayward will be playing well over 30, pushing 40 even depending on the game/playoffs/matchup etc. Other guys also need to get used to the change. It’s a process and I don’t want us scraping for early victories at the expense of developing long term chemistry.
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: Moranis on November 06, 2018, 09:25:14 AM
Jamal Murray scoring 48 points killed the Celtics.  That and the C's bench getting crushed by the Nuggets bench.
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: gouki88 on November 06, 2018, 09:31:00 AM
Hayward was a +4 tonight 3-7 with 8 points and 9 rebounds and two assists, the only bench player who wasn't a negative tonight was Robert Williams and he only played 2 minutes.
Yeah, Hayward killing us is completely out of touch. He has been no worse than Rozier, Tatum or Brown. He’s just paid more, but he also has an excuse for his poor start.

Maybe it's because we're comparing current Hayward to historical Hayward. Current Hayward is still contributing but he's a long way away from historical Hayward, so people are harder on him.
Definitely. I think people are lacking perspective 
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: jpotter33 on November 06, 2018, 10:27:56 AM
Hayward was a +4 tonight 3-7 with 8 points and 9 rebounds and two assists, the only bench player who wasn't a negative tonight was Robert Williams and he only played 2 minutes.
Yeah, Hayward killing us is completely out of touch. He has been no worse than Rozier, Tatum or Brown. He’s just paid more, but he also has an excuse for his poor start.

I’m not sure why people are thinking I was specifically saying just last night’s game. I’m talking globally for the season thus far.

Hayward has been killing us, because he’s pretty much been a non factor the entire season outside of one or two games. He’s been pretty bad defensively for us after a few good games early in the season - which was most likely him taking advantage of sloppy early season play - and he’s regularly picked on by opposing offenses. Offensively, he’s shooting well below his career averages and especially his later seasons’ averages, and he’s been a half-step slow on all of his moves.

And all of this is completely understandable given his injury, and he’s clearly not the only problem we have. But it is clearly a problem.

Spending a week or two in the G League would do him some good at rebuilding his rhythm and timing. While the skill level is certainly a step below the NBA, most of the G League players are just as athletic as the NBA guys, especially on the wings, and the game is just as fast, if not faster due to less focus on defense. This could help him get back into the rhythm of playing without the stakes of losing real NBA games, because like it or not these early season games still do matter for positioning later in the season.

I just think you have much more to gain and less to risk by giving him a some games in the G League, which wouldn’t affect team chemistry or development all that much either.
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: jpotter33 on November 06, 2018, 10:29:50 AM
Jamal Murray scoring 48 points killed the Celtics.  That and the C's bench getting crushed by the Nuggets bench.

Again - global assessment, not just a single game. Hayward’s poor play certainly didn’t help last night, but clearly Murray going off and the bench struggles (along with Brad’s poor decision-making in the 2nd) were the primary culprits.
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: Vermont Green on November 06, 2018, 11:12:49 AM
The G League?  Are you kidding?  I think just playing off the bench for a stretch would be enough.  The G League would do him no good at all in my opinion.  He still needs to be playing against NBA level talent.
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: rocknrollforyoursoul on November 06, 2018, 11:38:05 AM
I'm not a baseball guy, but don't they use the minor leagues in a similar way for guys coming back from injuries?

Yes, indeed. It's common practice.
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: Bobshot on November 06, 2018, 12:04:17 PM
The problem with Hayward is he is taking up too many minutes of other guys who are more into the chemistry of this team. You could say he isn't himself yet, but he also doesn't seem to have a role on this team, which seems to have bypassed him  with the rapid development of younger players.

The irony is they are paying him a huge chunk of money, and he isn't worth anywhere near that on this team right now. A real dilemma.
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: PhoSita on November 06, 2018, 12:20:38 PM
If the team is going to contend this year (which is clearly their goal), Hayward needs to be a big part of the game plan, and he needs to be integrated with the other players in order to be that large a part of the game plan.

These are necessary growing pains for this team.

Hayward has been rough but he looks like he can be a sort of Andre Iguodala type presence either with the starters or off the bench.

We may reach a point where Hayward has to be put into a reserve role, like Iggy.  But I think the team is going to have to play him as a starter for a while before they can reach that conclusion.
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: RodyTur10 on November 06, 2018, 12:27:11 PM
I just don't see the problem with Hayward as the 6th man like Ginobili.

Ginobili was also an All Star, he performed great in that role and was a massive part of the success of the Spurs.

Hayward has the ball handling, scoring power and experience to lead a unit on the court. Giving him more touches and responsibilities will only increase his process to becoming himself again. 
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: LilRip on November 06, 2018, 12:50:22 PM
I just don't see the problem with Hayward as the 6th man like Ginobili.

Ginobili was also an All Star, he performed great in that role and was a massive part of the success of the Spurs.

Hayward has the ball handling, scoring power and experience to lead a unit on the court. Giving him more touches and responsibilities will only increase his process to becoming himself again.

Except Hayward hasn't looked very dynamic with or without the ball. And tbh (and can someone run the stats on this), it seems like we've run more plays through Hayward than either of Jaylen or Jayson. It wouldn't surprise me if Kyrie was #1 and Horford was #2 in terms of touches, and then afterwards would probably be Rozier (lol), and then Hayward, and then Tatum.

Part of me blames Brown's early season struggles on his lack of touches. It's hard to establish rhythm when you don't see the ball much. He developed a good rhythm in the Nuggets game but that sort of evaporated after the 1st quarter.
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: straightouttabahstun on November 06, 2018, 02:09:26 PM
It’s tough. The Celtics were a very different team when they were signing him. Think about it- the best offensive players were Isaiah Thomas and Avery Bradley. Then Kyrie came here. Then Brown and Tatum realized they could ball hard QUICK. Suddenly, he doesn’t look like the greatest fit on the team. Does he even work well even in his All Star 2017 form?
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on November 06, 2018, 02:36:34 PM
Put yourself in Hayward's shoes for minute:

*He needs to find a sense of comfort in his own body after a brutal injury.  He probably fears reinjury and questions if he'll ever play at the same elite level.

*He has missed an entire season of play at the highest level. He needs time to find his rhythm and adjust to NBA speed again.  He's probably relearning muscle movements after that much time off.

*He's probably concerned with fitting into a team he just watched succeed at a high level in his absence.   He now needs to find his role without disrupting that chemistry -- which he was robbed of last year -- and now he has to figure it out in the context of all these other challenges.

You psychopaths lack empathy.    :)
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: tstorey_97 on November 06, 2018, 02:41:57 PM
Hayward was a +4 tonight 3-7 with 8 points and 9 rebounds and two assists, the only bench player who wasn't a negative tonight was Robert Williams and he only played 2 minutes.

Williams only played two minutes last night because they are resting him for his new position as starting center for the Boston Celtics...

 :)
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: RodyTur10 on November 06, 2018, 02:46:10 PM
I just don't see the problem with Hayward as the 6th man like Ginobili.

Ginobili was also an All Star, he performed great in that role and was a massive part of the success of the Spurs.

Hayward has the ball handling, scoring power and experience to lead a unit on the court. Giving him more touches and responsibilities will only increase his process to becoming himself again.

Except Hayward hasn't looked very dynamic with or without the ball. And tbh (and can someone run the stats on this), it seems like we've run more plays through Hayward than either of Jaylen or Jayson. It wouldn't surprise me if Kyrie was #1 and Horford was #2 in terms of touches, and then afterwards would probably be Rozier (lol), and then Hayward, and then Tatum.

Part of me blames Brown's early season struggles on his lack of touches. It's hard to establish rhythm when you don't see the ball much. He developed a good rhythm in the Nuggets game but that sort of evaporated after the 1st quarter.

Usage percentages (Assist ratio and True Shooting %) from NBA.com:

Kyrie Irving 25,1 (22,0 - 58,7)
   
Jayson Tatum 22,0 (13,6 - 52,4)
Marcus Morris 21,3 (7,1 - 65,8)
   
Jaylen Brown 20,0 (9,4 - 45,5)
Gordon Hayward 19,3 (16,0 - 48,6)
Al Horford 18,9   (23,3 - 53,2)
   
Aron Baynes 16,2 (14,3 - 56,5)   
Terry Rozier 15,4 (19,6 - 46,6)
   
Marcus Smart 12,3 (36,0 - 45,1)   
   
Apparently Hayward and Horford have been less involved in plays than you thought. It's all quite balanced with Smart having the least touches, despite having the best assist ratio. Irving as the primary playmaker just ranks 37th among starters in the league in USG% (that's very low for an All Star type scorer).

According to the stats Irving, Horford and Smart are the best playmakers on this team. Rozier and Hayward seem decent on the ball, but Hayward has been turnover-prone.

Tatum, Brown and Morris are only good in creating shots for themselves, where the last one has been exceptional at that so far.
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: jpotter33 on November 06, 2018, 02:50:25 PM
Put yourself in Hayward's shoes for minute:

*He needs to find a sense of comfort in his own body after a brutal injury.  He probably fears reinjury and questions if he'll ever play at the same elite level.

*He has missed an entire season of play at the highest level. He needs time to find his rhythm and adjust to NBA speed again.  He's probably relearning muscle movements after that much time off.

*He's probably concerned with fitting into a team he just watched succeed at a high level in his absence.   He now needs to find his role without disrupting that chemistry -- which he was robbed of last year -- and now he has to figure it out in the context of all these other challenges.

You psychopaths lack empathy.    :)

Psst - we all know that Tar is biased in this regard, because he just has the hots for Robyn Hayward.  ;D
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on November 06, 2018, 02:56:49 PM
Put yourself in Hayward's shoes for minute:

*He needs to find a sense of comfort in his own body after a brutal injury.  He probably fears reinjury and questions if he'll ever play at the same elite level.

*He has missed an entire season of play at the highest level. He needs time to find his rhythm and adjust to NBA speed again.  He's probably relearning muscle movements after that much time off.

*He's probably concerned with fitting into a team he just watched succeed at a high level in his absence.   He now needs to find his role without disrupting that chemistry -- which he was robbed of last year -- and now he has to figure it out in the context of all these other challenges.

You psychopaths lack empathy.    :)

Psst - we all know that Tar is biased in this regard, because he just has the hots for Robyn Hayward.  ;D

Truer words have never been spoken.  :)
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on November 06, 2018, 03:41:34 PM
Stay the course, with Gordon Hayward starting.

Need to give him TIME to get himself familiar with the game again, fit in, insert himself chemistry-wise.

He needs to do this as a STARTER.

This may take well into Jan of next year but I / we are already seeing some signs (game in DET, game vs MIL) where he resembles the GH of old.

Must be PATIENT with him - even if it costs us some wins.

We may have to dial back our win total to "only" 54 or 55 games but I can live with this once we are steamrolling the league into June of next year.

Team has to man up.....batten down the hatches....circle the wagons....SUPPORT GH...
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: Moranis on November 06, 2018, 03:51:11 PM
Jamal Murray scoring 48 points killed the Celtics.  That and the C's bench getting crushed by the Nuggets bench.

Again - global assessment, not just a single game. Hayward’s poor play certainly didn’t help last night, but clearly Murray going off and the bench struggles (along with Brad’s poor decision-making in the 2nd) were the primary culprits.
Jayson Tatum is the only starter with a positive on/off difference on the year at 11.1.  Brown is -1.7, Horford is -9.0, Irving is -9.2, and Hayward is -9.8, so while Hayward has been bad, he is in the same general range as Irving and Horford in the badness department.  Those 3 also all have a negative +- on the season.  Hayward has a better ORTG than Brown and has the 3rd best DRTG on the team and is the best starter (along with Horford) in that category.  He has a better TS% than Brown, a better VORP than Brown, a better WS than Brown, etc.

The simple reality is that Hayward is really not any worse then any of the other starters (except Tatum) when it comes to playing actual winning and losing basketball this year. 
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: Boris Badenov on November 06, 2018, 05:27:26 PM
Jamal Murray scoring 48 points killed the Celtics.  That and the C's bench getting crushed by the Nuggets bench.

Again - global assessment, not just a single game. Hayward’s poor play certainly didn’t help last night, but clearly Murray going off and the bench struggles (along with Brad’s poor decision-making in the 2nd) were the primary culprits.
Jayson Tatum is the only starter with a positive on/off difference on the year at 11.1.  Brown is -1.7, Horford is -9.0, Irving is -9.2, and Hayward is -9.8, so while Hayward has been bad, he is in the same general range as Irving and Horford in the badness department.  Those 3 also all have a negative +- on the season.  Hayward has a better ORTG than Brown and has the 3rd best DRTG on the team and is the best starter (along with Horford) in that category.  He has a better TS% than Brown, a better VORP than Brown, a better WS than Brown, etc.

The simple reality is that Hayward is really not any worse then any of the other starters (except Tatum) when it comes to playing actual winning and losing basketball this year.

What's more, it's clear that he is trying to make plays and move the ball for a better shot, because he understands that our downfall has been settling for the first decent look we get.
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: BringToughnessBack on November 06, 2018, 07:21:21 PM
Put yourself in Hayward's shoes for minute:

*He needs to find a sense of comfort in his own body after a brutal injury.  He probably fears reinjury and questions if he'll ever play at the same elite level.

*He has missed an entire season of play at the highest level. He needs time to find his rhythm and adjust to NBA speed again.  He's probably relearning muscle movements after that much time off.

*He's probably concerned with fitting into a team he just watched succeed at a high level in his absence.   He now needs to find his role without disrupting that chemistry -- which he was robbed of last year -- and now he has to figure it out in the context of all these other challenges.

You psychopaths lack empathy.    :)

Not too mention never played regular season minutes with any of these players.

Brutal are we.....Hey Mr Brady, Mr Ortiz, would you mind heading to the minor leagues while you come back from a brutal injury instead of gaining valuable minutes with your new teammates?

Are we really this crazy over a few losses....by playoff time, we will be fine...probably by mid January at the latest.

I actually thought I saw glimpses of old Hayward last night. Not worried in the least.
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: footey on November 06, 2018, 07:30:23 PM
Let’s be patient with Hayward. He clearly is not 100%, and probably won’t be for a couple of months. That was most evident when he got his shot blocked from behind last night. He has no lift. It has affected his confidence.

Gordon needs to play within his limitations and gradually, as they dissipate, he will one again be the guy he was in Utah. A stud.
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: IDreamCeltics on November 07, 2018, 07:16:24 AM
Let’s be patient with Hayward. He clearly is not 100%, and probably won’t be for a couple of months. That was most evident when he got his shot blocked from behind last night. He has no lift. It has affected his confidence.

Gordon needs to play within his limitations and gradually, as they dissipate, he will one again be the guy he was in Utah. A stud.

There's plenty of time to be patient with Hayward when he's playing in Maine.  He needs to get better, but more importantly he needs to stop being selfish and let the team gel.   
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: gouki88 on November 07, 2018, 07:25:42 AM
Let’s be patient with Hayward. He clearly is not 100%, and probably won’t be for a couple of months. That was most evident when he got his shot blocked from behind last night. He has no lift. It has affected his confidence.

Gordon needs to play within his limitations and gradually, as they dissipate, he will one again be the guy he was in Utah. A stud.

There's plenty of time to be patient with Hayward when he's playing in Maine.  He needs to get better, but more importantly he needs to stop being selfish and let the team gel.   
Just stoppppp dude
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: Celtics4ever on November 07, 2018, 07:48:58 AM
Can we send the OP to Celticsblog our G league now?   JK
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: CelticSooner on November 07, 2018, 07:47:14 PM
Instead of making a new thread I'll just ask this question here.

How much trade value do you think Hayward has at this moment? A 1 for 1 deal with no salary matching involved, which type of talent could the C's net in return? Just curious.
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: gouki88 on November 07, 2018, 07:48:44 PM
Instead of making a new thread I'll just ask this question here.

How much trade value do you think Hayward has at this moment? A 1 for 1 deal with no salary matching involved, which type of talent could the C's net in return? Just curious.
It would probably depend a lot on the team. I reckon a team like Houston or Toronto would love him in this no salary matching required scenario, as he can only really get better. As it stands his value would have to be at its lowest point in basically 5 years though
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: moiso on November 07, 2018, 08:50:09 PM
Instead of making a new thread I'll just ask this question here.

How much trade value do you think Hayward has at this moment? A 1 for 1 deal with no salary matching involved, which type of talent could the C's net in return? Just curious.
Maybe Butler since he’s looking for a trade.
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: IDreamCeltics on November 08, 2018, 08:51:49 AM
Instead of making a new thread I'll just ask this question here.

How much trade value do you think Hayward has at this moment? A 1 for 1 deal with no salary matching involved, which type of talent could the C's net in return? Just curious.
Maybe Butler since he’s looking for a trade.

Not even close. 

I'd say he's around Trevor Ariza, Wilson Chandler, or Jae Crowder in terms of trade value right now.  He's a solid veteran forward who lacks the athletic ability to win games on his own or make wow plays, but you could still plug him into most teams and have a solid contributor.


This was the danger of offering max money to a player who was 27 and peaking in value without ever sniffing a spot among the top 15 players in the league.

it obviously worked out as badly as possible for the Celtics and no one wanted this, but it is what it is.   
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: green_bballers13 on November 08, 2018, 11:52:24 AM
Trade Hayward? Yes, but just to dump $ to pay someone else a lot of money. Otherwise, I don't see the point in moving an appreciating asset (coming off injury) that has respect in the locker room and has a link to the coach. He's a good locker room guy. He's not playing that well, but he's been contributing in the hustle categories.

The Celtics have a chance to win the whole thing this year. I still think patience is the name of the game with this young team. Hayward seems like the kind of guy that will go off in a big playoff game. Look at Hayward's time in Butler, then compare that athlete to what you see today. He has certainly improved as a pro and I have faith that he can recover from a bad injury.
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: unclebay on November 08, 2018, 01:24:34 PM
He's coming back from an injury,  I don't know if any of you recall, where he SNAPPED HIS ANKLE IN HALF. He's already catching lobs which is a huge step. He's gonna get back to the player he was it just takes some time. And some of you are talking about trading him? Really?
The lack of foresight from some of you on this board is astounding. Mind-boggling.
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: IDreamCeltics on November 09, 2018, 08:13:09 AM
Another 8 points, another $360,000 game check for Hayward. 
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: GreenEnvy on November 09, 2018, 08:24:52 AM
Another 8 points, another $360,000 game check for Hayward.

You’re troll game is weak. Maybe go back into old threads and see how to really get under people’s skin.

Hayward is like 4 months removed from a second surgery. That was a setback that many tend to overlook.

He’s getting there. He’s going to get back to the player he was. That’s not unrealistic at all. He’s got the intelligence and talent to not need to rely only on athleticism, which he will continue to get back.
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: gouki88 on November 09, 2018, 08:34:36 AM
Another 8 points, another $360,000 game check for Hayward.
Are you enjoying yourself?
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: IDreamCeltics on November 09, 2018, 09:23:06 AM
Another 8 points, another $360,000 game check for Hayward.

You’re troll game is weak. Maybe go back into old threads and see how to really get under people’s skin.

Hayward is like 4 months removed from a second surgery. That was a setback that many tend to overlook.

He’s getting there. He’s going to get back to the player he was. That’s not unrealistic at all. He’s got the intelligence and talent to not need to rely only on athleticism, which he will continue to get back.

Based on the title of the thread I'd say you're the one trolling. 

Of course I'd never call someone a troll just because they disagree with my opinion, but that's just me. 

Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: ozgod on November 09, 2018, 09:23:43 AM
Another 8 points, another $360,000 game check for Hayward.

Paul George had a similar injury in Aug 2014 and missed all but 6 games of the 2014-15 season. Here were his stats on returning:


Code: [Select]
Rk G Date Age Tm Opp GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS GmSc +/-

77 1 2015-04-05 24-338 IND MIA W (+23) 0 14:34 5 12 .417 3 6 .500 0 0 0 2 2 2 2 0 3 3 13 6.4 +12
78 2 2015-04-08 24-341 IND @ NYK W (+16) 0 15:31 2 7 .286 1 3 .333 5 6 .833 0 3 3 0 2 0 2 1 10 6.0 +5
79 3 2015-04-10 24-343 IND @ DET W (+4) 0 13:54 3 6 .500 2 3 .667 2 2 1.000 0 4 4 2 0 0 2 0 10 7.6 +1
80 4 2015-04-12 24-345 IND OKC W (+12) 0 14:09 3 9 .333 1 4 .250 1 2 .500 3 3 6 1 0 0 1 2 8 4.4 -3
81 5 2015-04-14 24-347 IND WAS W (+4) 0 17:46 4 10 .400 2 4 .500 0 1 .000 0 3 3 0 1 1 2 0 10 4.8 +1
82 6 2015-04-15 24-348 IND @ MEM L (-12) 0 15:01 1 5 .200 0 2 .000 0 0 1 3 4 1 0 0 2 5 2 -2.8 -1

George then had another offseason to work on his game and recover.

Here are Hayward's numbers in his 10 games on returning:

Code: [Select]
Rk G Date Age Tm Opp GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS GmSc +/-
1 1 2018-10-16 28-207 BOS PHI W (+18) 1 24:37 4 12 .333 1 3 .333 1 2 .500 2 3 5 0 4 0 0 1 10 8.7 +10
2 2 2018-10-19 28-210 BOS @ TOR L (-12) 1 24:17 6 13 .462 1 3 .333 1 1 1.000 2 5 7 2 1 0 1 0 14 11.6 -11
3 2018-10-20 28-211 BOS @ NYK W (+2) Inactive
4 3 2018-10-22 28-213 BOS ORL L (-3) 1 24:56 4 8 .500 3 5 .600 0 0 0 4 4 3 1 0 2 3 11 8.1 -1
5 4 2018-10-25 28-216 BOS @ OKC W (+6) 1 23:41 1 5 .200 1 4 .250 2 4 .500 0 7 7 1 0 0 2 3 5 0.7 -13
6 5 2018-10-27 28-218 BOS @ DET W (+20) 1 23:41 6 11 .545 2 5 .400 1 3 .333 0 5 5 1 1 0 3 3 15 7.9 +18
7 6 2018-10-30 28-221 BOS DET W (+3) 1 25:53 3 10 .300 0 2 .000 0 0 1 3 4 3 0 0 1 0 6 2.9 -1
8 7 2018-11-01 28-223 BOS MIL W (+4) 1 26:38 6 11 .545 3 5 .600 3 3 1.000 2 2 4 5 0 1 1 1 18 17.5 +4
9 8 2018-11-03 28-225 BOS @ IND L (-1) 1 25:42 2 10 .200 0 5 .000 0 0 2 5 7 3 1 2 1 3 4 3.0 -9
10 9 2018-11-05 28-227 BOS @ DEN L (-8) 1 25:52 3 7 .429 0 2 .000 2 2 1.000 1 8 9 2 0 0 1 2 8 7.0 +4
11 10 2018-11-08 28-230 BOS @ PHO W (+7) 1 24:54 3 8 .375 2 5 .400 0 0 0 4 4 2 0 0 0 1 8 5.8


As you can see not too different. I think it's a little unfair to Hayward to expect him to be his All-Star form immediately upon returning. I wouldn't be surprised if it took him till December to look like his old self again.
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: gouki88 on November 09, 2018, 09:26:43 AM
Another 8 points, another $360,000 game check for Hayward.

You’re troll game is weak. Maybe go back into old threads and see how to really get under people’s skin.

Hayward is like 4 months removed from a second surgery. That was a setback that many tend to overlook.

He’s getting there. He’s going to get back to the player he was. That’s not unrealistic at all. He’s got the intelligence and talent to not need to rely only on athleticism, which he will continue to get back.

Based on the title of the thread I'd say you're the one trolling. 

Of course I'd never call someone a troll just because they disagree with my opinion, but that's just me.
It’s probably routinely being inflammatory that’s getting you called a troll
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: jbpats on November 09, 2018, 09:43:19 AM
It’s easy to be down on Hayward. Guy is making more in one year then most of us will make in a lifetime combined..
It’s also easy to assume that a guy making so much should be instantly productive for us, injury aside. Former all-star, one of brads boys, hard worker and a great all-around player, doesn’t complain and just wants to do his job. Nearly the perfect Celtic isn’t he?

To be honest I am starting to lose my patience with him also, but I have to keep reminding myself how bad that injury was, how long he was out for and how his recovery and conditioning is still ongoing. But it’s easy to point the blame at him on a team that is struggling out of the gate and was predicted to win over 60 games especially when he was our ‘big win’ free agent. The guy who was expected to get us over the hump.

Let’s be real here though. Let’s forget about how much each guy is making and compare how people are playing compared to last year. Kyrie is comparable but it took some time. Horford is Horford and Smart is Smart so they can all be excluded, we’re getting what we expect to from those guys.

Hero Ball players:
Tatum – on and off but IMO more often off then on up to this point. I think he is trying to emulate Kobe a little too much, maybe his off-season training with him was counterproductive?
Rozier – Hardest player to watch on this team, at least to me. His contract is obviously more important to him at this point then seeing the team win
Morris – It’s working now, but imagine if it wasn’t? People would want his head on a spike. Like how his shot is falling hate how he doesn’t know what a pass is.

Under-achievers – Both of these have been beating to death it just is what it is
Brown
Hayward
Baynes – I personally have low expectations for this guy but he needs to play downlow not jack up ugly 3’s constantly. We have enough guys doing that right now

Biggest problem to me:
Stevens – I think he lost this team or is losing it. The current approach is ugly, just shoot threes, no downlow game no midrange game. No trying to drive to the basket to get teams in foul trouble. I know he’s trying to figure it out but at the end of the day it’s his fault this team is playing the way it is.
If he isn’t holding players accountable how can we get mad at Tatum/Rozier playing hero ball or Baynes jacking up threes? He needs to step up and realize this approach isn’t working.
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: RockinRyA on November 09, 2018, 12:20:54 PM
Another 8 points, another $360,000 game check for Hayward.

You’re troll game is weak. Maybe go back into old threads and see how to really get under people’s skin.

Hayward is like 4 months removed from a second surgery. That was a setback that many tend to overlook.

He’s getting there. He’s going to get back to the player he was. That’s not unrealistic at all. He’s got the intelligence and talent to not need to rely only on athleticism, which he will continue to get back.

Based on the title of the thread I'd say you're the one trolling. 

Of course I'd never call someone a troll just because they disagree with my opinion, but that's just me.

no its definitely you. He's right you know.
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: Donoghus on November 09, 2018, 12:37:27 PM
Sounds like Hayward owns real estate in someone's head.
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: SHAQATTACK on November 09, 2018, 01:51:18 PM
After Xmas he needs to step it up ...till then i ll be patient .   He should be going pretty good by Jan 2019 .   
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: manl_lui on November 09, 2018, 01:55:52 PM
i think it's fair to give him much longer time to get himself back to rhythm, Paul George needed a lot of time to recover from his gruesome injury and so does Hayward. I do see Hayward getting more comfortable out there but it will take a lot of time
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: Chief Macho on November 09, 2018, 02:10:34 PM
He sucks.  Needs to come off the bench or something.  Could be a huge waste of money,  but it’s too early to tell. 
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: Birdman on November 09, 2018, 03:05:03 PM
No one knew what would happen to Hayward..it was a great signing by Ainge to get him..we all was happy..now it going take awhile for him to get into NBA form..will he be the player he was at Utah? only time will tell but im not second guessing this signing..it was huge when he did in july of 2017
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: spikelovetheCelts on November 09, 2018, 04:05:56 PM
I really wish the G League was utilized more often by the NBA for its main guys and didn't have the stigma attached to it. The G League would be perfect for someone like Hayward to get his rhythm and confidence back, let alone his explosiveness and conditioning, because he simply isn't ready to be a steady contributor out there on the floor right now.

Tonight we saw him look very frustrated and down on himself for missing shots that he usually makes, which worries me now, as that will just impede his growth and ultimately hurt the team when he's out there if he lacks confidence in himself.

Coming back from such a major injury, the G League is the perfect context for someone like Hayward to build himself back up. Of course, it will never happen, because there's a stigma attached to a max-level player going to the G League for some reason, but I think a month down there with him dominating the competition would be great for him.
Clearly not a good idea. G league would do nothing to help Gordon. Coach has kept his minutes low and he is getting better by the day.  Just Because one has a as many post as you does not know you know Basketball. You Clearly have not played reps are what Gordon Needs so he will peak in June. G League is like day 1 of Training camp. Your Tommy Boys show the lack of good points you have made.
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: IDreamCeltics on November 10, 2018, 05:07:32 PM
I'm beginning to wonder at what point there starts to be legitimate discord in the locker room due to Hayward getting special treatment from Brad.

While Tatum and other young players (who lead the team to the ECF last season) are getting yanked for a single missed defensive assignment Hayward has carte blanche.

Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: RJ87 on November 10, 2018, 07:07:52 PM
I'm beginning to wonder at what point there starts to be legitimate discord in the locker room due to Hayward getting special treatment from Brad.

While Tatum and other young players (who lead the team to the ECF last season) are getting yanked for a single missed defensive assignment Hayward has carte blanche.

I don't think it's special treatment at all. Hayward - even when he plays badly - plays within the team's offense. He doesn't force bad shots, can effectively run some point and he tries defensively. Tatum has mental lapses on the defensive end, on the other end he doesn't bring much else to the table when he falls in love with contested midrange twos. I think you're seeing Brad reward one for playing the right way as opposed to the guy too into his own hype.
Title: Re: Hayward is Killing Us. Needs Some Time in the G League to Rebuild Himself.
Post by: cman88 on November 10, 2018, 07:11:36 PM
I just wonder where his shot has went? I always understood his athleticism would take abit to come back. But he just isnt hitting his shots right now.