Moore: good defender and shot blocker?

[celts55]

While I'm not jumping for joy, the way I look at it is the Celtics have replaced O'Bryant with Moore. To me that's an ungraded. The few times I remember seeing Moore play, he seemed Okay. He played hard, with a lot of energy, and was certainly more physical than POB. Again, I'm not overjoyed, but I don't really see a negitive in this upgrade.

[BillfromBoston]

There is no money and there are no impact players available! I take Mikki Moore over Robert Horry at this point in their careers.

There *is* money.  As of right now, though, you're correct: there are no impact players available.  Joe Smith may be bought out, and I would have waited another week.

I think people are disappointed because all along people defending the off-season were saying "but we'll supplement during the season!".  To date, we've replaced Posey, P.J. and Sam with Mikki Moore.

The thing about that one is...Moore has been statistically superior to the version of PJ Brown we had last year - including his rebounding rate - so I think that his superior mobility, energy, and face-up shot are going to be well-utilized in this team system - remember, Ray and Paul were never known as defenders and neither were as efficient as they are now - changing systems matters.

Secondly, Moore was pretty solid defensively a couple years ago in NJ. I don't think he's slipped that far, I just think that the situation in Sac-Town wasn't conducive to Moore playing his best ball - he's not KG, but give him some defensive support and I think he'll surprise some people.

Finally, we will find out quite soon whether or not Stephon Marbury is coming on board - if he does i think it is unquestionable that Ainge upgraded the roster from last season and was intelligent not to commit multiple years for marginal upgrades....if Marbs doesn't come back i fully expect Sam to be re-signed - I think that was actually a pre-arranged agreement.

I see a lot of bashing of Moore on this board but no willingness to take the situation in Sac-Town into account, nor factor in Moore's personality and how that may have impacted his performance in a losing environment.

If this Celtics team has shown us anything its that a player who will dedicate himself to the system can become more than the sum of his individual ability would suppose...Moore plays his ass off and has had very solid production in the not-so-distant past...

...that leads me to believe that the negativity displayed with this acquisition has much more to do with deflated expectations than it does Moore's probability to contribute...

the expectations are deflated for sure. I'm not bashing Moore. I just don't see how he is an upgrade over players that are already in the rotation.

the only way a guy can be an "impact player" is if he is deserving of minutes that are already going to someone else.

whose minutes deserve to be shortened at this point to get Moore PT?

I hear you, but I think you have to break the game into parts to understand his value.

Moore is a role player - one that the Lakers, Suns, Cavs, Spurs, and Nuggets all apparently valued to some degree.

What he brings is two main elements: face-up spot-shooting from 15-17 feet and length/mobility for the team defensive system.

We've all seen how much better this team plays when Davis and Scal are hitting face-up shots. It is an extension of the benefit KG brings with his range. the interior opens for more one-on-one post play and it improves driving lanes for the guards.

While Moore isn't an upgrade to Powe, Scal, or Davis across the board, he does have a few key strengths that make him a situational upgrade.

I also STRONGLY advice people to stop thinking of players as automaton-robots that produce soulless statistical efforts that are easily predictable.

We've seen and pay lip service so often to KG's intensity or Pierce's heart, yet when we start looking at a role player such as Moore, we boil him down simply to stats.

Moore has played effective statistical basketball in his recent past, so we know he CAN be good in that regard, or has been at some point at least.

What I see in Moore is not greatness, but a niche skill-set that can be a net impact for this team. I also see a player who has shown tremendous competitive intensity and a desire to contribute to winning basketball - I think the Celtics environment will bring out the best in him.

[acieEarl]

Quit being so [dang] negative. Mikki Moore is a huge upgrade from what we had and he is an energy player and that is what we need right now coming off the bench.

I agree. Huge upgrade over POB. I know that's not saying much, but Moore has always played his best as a role player coming off the bench. Sac brought him in to play big minutes and he's not a starter. Moore will be good for the 5-15 minutes that we'll need him for.

Yes I rather have Smith, but no guarantees he gets bought out or even signs with us as Cleveland could offer more.

[Fafnir]

You really don't think Darko and Kwame had/have All Star level talent? They were busts as high picks but they were high picks for a reason. Dark is a reasonably skilled athletic 7 footer. He just never could put the whole game together, happens to very talented players.

Kwame never had the skill but he easily has the physical talent. He is/was an amazing athlete. Just not a good player.

Which season of Marbury's was he a top 2 or 3 point guard in a conference in your mind? I'm looking at his stats and I don't see it. He put up a lot of points but on a lot of shots.

Dude, you gotta drop this argument...Marbury made multiple All Star games and was an Olympian - he was clearly regarded highly enough to have thos credentials as well as become the highest paid player in the NBA at one point.

He has definite flaws - never because the winner or team leader that people expected from his talent, but don't confuse that with not being an elite-level performer...his underachieving was better than many star players best...

He was selected for the Olympics because of his name recognition, he got his name because he has a high scoring average. I'll drop my argument when you actually address my point with something other than All-Star/Olympic suggestions and how much money he makes. Neither make for a good argument.

To go through my thoughts are Marbury more completely. He scored a lot inefficiently, played poor defense, dominated the ball too much, and was a poor teammate through out his career. I don't think he was ever deserving of an all-star berth.

This is getting too OT though.

[2short]

I can't understand the hits Moore and even Ainge are taking.  Moore is a good pickup, an athletic LONG big with good enough foot speed to play in our defense.  (not easy for a big) Perk doesn't really have the speed to attack the high penetration but works at it and PJ worked to cover it but didn't all the time.  Yes kg rocks at it!
 
As for Ainge he didn't replace Posey without a doubt but he didn't pay too much for an older bench guy.  Sam is replaced and improved on with pruitt....does anyone think sam helped last year.  As I remember it he had 1 good game against san antonio than was killing us when on court AND complaining that he should have played more.  POB was a cheap chance that didn't work out but I still think with his offensive skill set he can play in the nba.  I equate pj being replaced (hopefully    ) with moore.  Than we have scal, ta and walker to make up for posey.    In the playoffs last year a reminder, posey couldn't stop lebron it was PP.
oh and again a vote of NO for marbury, i think a fight would break out in locker room

[CelticsWhat35]

While I'm not jumping for joy, the way I look at it is the Celtics have replaced O'Bryant with Moore. To me that's an ungraded. The few times I remember seeing Moore play, he seemed Okay. He played hard, with a lot of energy, and was certainly more physical than POB. Again, I'm not overjoyed, but I don't really see a negitive in this upgrade.

I don't think you should look at it that way, and I sure hope Danny doesn't look at it that way.  POB had no chance of making the 12-man playoff roster or making it into the playoff rotation.  If Moore can't make it into the rotation, if even for 10-15 minutes per game, I see that as a disappoinment.  I'm hopeful that he can help the team, but we'll see.

[BillfromBoston]

Starbury WAS an All-Star talent, but it's a stretch to apply that label to him today.  Hell, Cassell was an All Star talent, too!  Starbury's play in the past few years was down, he hasn't played a game in ages (and who really knows how long it will take him to get back into game shape), and I tend to think that his basic style of play isn't one that helps our offense. 

If he comes in with the right attitude - yeah, sixth-man of the year candidate.  But, I don't trust him not to whine for more playing time and try and undercut Rondo however he can. 

Starbury WAS an All-Star, but my fear is that he thinks he still IS one.

I share the same fear that most do about Marbury's biggest flaw - his ego...but I do believe that Boston is presenting the ideal environment and role for him to succeed - we'll have to see.

On the performance front, I think a great deal of his drop off in production was how he was utilized by Larry Brown, coupled with his recent injury history.

The last time he was healthy and had a steady role, he was his usual productive self...with the way he looked in pre-season, I think he's in great condition and is not old enough for me to fear physical decline..

[winsomme]

There is no money and there are no impact players available! I take Mikki Moore over Robert Horry at this point in their careers.

There *is* money.  As of right now, though, you're correct: there are no impact players available.  Joe Smith may be bought out, and I would have waited another week.

I think people are disappointed because all along people defending the off-season were saying "but we'll supplement during the season!".  To date, we've replaced Posey, P.J. and Sam with Mikki Moore.

The thing about that one is...Moore has been statistically superior to the version of PJ Brown we had last year - including his rebounding rate - so I think that his superior mobility, energy, and face-up shot are going to be well-utilized in this team system - remember, Ray and Paul were never known as defenders and neither were as efficient as they are now - changing systems matters.

Secondly, Moore was pretty solid defensively a couple years ago in NJ. I don't think he's slipped that far, I just think that the situation in Sac-Town wasn't conducive to Moore playing his best ball - he's not KG, but give him some defensive support and I think he'll surprise some people.

Finally, we will find out quite soon whether or not Stephon Marbury is coming on board - if he does i think it is unquestionable that Ainge upgraded the roster from last season and was intelligent not to commit multiple years for marginal upgrades....if Marbs doesn't come back i fully expect Sam to be re-signed - I think that was actually a pre-arranged agreement.

I see a lot of bashing of Moore on this board but no willingness to take the situation in Sac-Town into account, nor factor in Moore's personality and how that may have impacted his performance in a losing environment.

If this Celtics team has shown us anything its that a player who will dedicate himself to the system can become more than the sum of his individual ability would suppose...Moore plays his ass off and has had very solid production in the not-so-distant past...

...that leads me to believe that the negativity displayed with this acquisition has much more to do with deflated expectations than it does Moore's probability to contribute...

the expectations are deflated for sure. I'm not bashing Moore. I just don't see how he is an upgrade over players that are already in the rotation.

the only way a guy can be an "impact player" is if he is deserving of minutes that are already going to someone else.

whose minutes deserve to be shortened at this point to get Moore PT?

I hear you, but I think you have to break the game into parts to understand his value.

Moore is a role player - one that the Lakers, Suns, Cavs, Spurs, and Nuggets all apparently valued to some degree.

What he brings is two main elements: face-up spot-shooting from 15-17 feet and length/mobility for the team defensive system.

We've all seen how much better this team plays when Davis and Scal are hitting face-up shots. It is an extension of the benefit KG brings with his range. the interior opens for more one-on-one post play and it improves driving lanes for the guards.

While Moore isn't an upgrade to Powe, Scal, or Davis across the board, he does have a few key strengths that make him a situational upgrade.

I also STRONGLY advice people to stop thinking of players as automaton-robots that produce soulless statistical efforts that are easily predictable.

We've seen and pay lip service so often to KG's intensity or Pierce's heart, yet when we start looking at a role player such as Moore, we boil him down simply to stats.

Moore has played effective statistical basketball in his recent past, so we know he CAN be good in that regard, or has been at some point at least.

What I see in Moore is not greatness, but a niche skill-set that can be a net impact for this team. I also see a player who has shown tremendous competitive intensity and a desire to contribute to winning basketball - I think the Celtics environment will bring out the best in him.

BFB, I hear what you are saying, and i certainly hope you are right.

but my feelings about Moore have very little to do with stats.

just look at PJ from last year. by just about every metric you would have to say that PJ was not much of a factor in our playoff run.

but we all know different. we all know that when PJ came in the game there was a negligible drop-off in maybe the most important category in the playoffs - "toughness".

he also made solid rotations on defense - a big key for the Cs especially. and he made big buckets.

It's all well and good for Moore to have the dimensions to fit the bill, but if he blows a couple of rotations or gets overpowered on the glass by Varejao for a couple of offensive rebounds to give CLE an extra possession or two....then he has been a huge letdown. especially when balanced against what we got out of that spot last year.

a lot of times in games in the playoffs, the battles of the heavyweights is a standstill and the outcome ends up turning on lesser matchups...

[winsomme]

You really don't think Darko and Kwame had/have All Star level talent? They were busts as high picks but they were high picks for a reason. Dark is a reasonably skilled athletic 7 footer. He just never could put the whole game together, happens to very talented players.

Kwame never had the skill but he easily has the physical talent. He is/was an amazing athlete. Just not a good player.

Which season of Marbury's was he a top 2 or 3 point guard in a conference in your mind? I'm looking at his stats and I don't see it. He put up a lot of points but on a lot of shots.

Dude, you gotta drop this argument...Marbury made multiple All Star games and was an Olympian - he was clearly regarded highly enough to have thos credentials as well as become the highest paid player in the NBA at one point.

He has definite flaws - never because the winner or team leader that people expected from his talent, but don't confuse that with not being an elite-level performer...his underachieving was better than many star players best...

He was selected for the Olympics because of his name recognition, he got his name because he has a high scoring average. I'll drop my argument when you actually address my point with something other than All-Star/Olympic suggestions and how much money he makes. Neither make for a good argument.

To go through my thoughts are Marbury more completely. He scored a lot inefficiently, played poor defense, dominated the ball too much, and was a poor teammate through out his career. I don't think he was ever deserving of an all-star berth.

This is getting too OT though.

while i'm not at the same level as you on Marbury, I'm in the same neighborhood. He never lived up to his skill level and mostly that was because he seemed to think that he was the show...

i think he did have some All-Star seasons, but they were never what they should or could have been....

my worry about him coming here is two-fold. One, I think our bench needs different skillsets than he brings to the table. and two, this is a role that he has never really filled.

has he ever shown the ability to be a guy that can come off the bench and not have the game become about what he is doing?

that said, as far as "impact player", he does have that ability IMO....ugh...just crossing my fingers on this whole deal at this point.

not sure what else there is to say about it.

I think i have to stop watching CLE games....

[winsomme]

i guess i should just bottom line this. I would take Horry or Smith over Moore. If either of these guys comes back then i will be disappointed in this move.

but if not, then he probably is the BPA at the position and hopefully the opportunity being presented to him will be something he elevates his game to..

[BillfromBoston]

Quit being so [dang] negative. Mikki Moore is a huge upgrade from what we had and he is an energy player and that is what we need right now coming off the bench.

i hope you're right. I don't see him as a huge upgrade. IMO we needed an impact player. he seems inferior to BBD, Powe and Scal.

how is that a huge upgrade?

This team has 4 All Stars...what type of "impact" level player are we talking about here?

I just don't think this fanbase can process the difference between last year and this year - its been too long since this team contended and romantic notions of 80's dominance has clouded reality to a degree.

This team is very, very strong and is a true contender -- whatever limitations they have are no greater than any other team...they can beat any team in a 7 game series, but it doesn't mean they are a cake-walk...nor were they last year...

...Marbury will be the 5th All Star talent on the roster if he's added, will that be enough to ease the fear?

take a look at the benches of CLE and LA, BFB. There are impact players there.

We lost two from our bench last season and haven't replaced them. That's where I'm coming from.

I agree that Marbury is an impact player and I hope if he comes here that he will be that added piece that we need.

but i just feel that the position that he plays -  PG - is not the position where we needed the impact. nor is his game built on the elements that i feel are what makes the kind of impact that we are going to need of the bench... namely, defense and toughness.

but, Marbury could be that player. He certainly has enough skills.

It is true that Clevland has some statistically superior players coming off their bench - but where does the fact that we have 4 All Star players in a our starting lineup factor into this equation?

Cleveland is much improved from last year and play excellent team basketball - but they are made up of exactly 1 player who matches or surpasses the ability of 4 of our players.

I'm all about depth, but i don't see Cleveland as a team that is superior to Boston...yes, Boston lost the last game against them - but they were also in the midst of their nightmare portion of the schedule and playing tired and sloppy basketball. LeBron also hit 4-6 3 pointers and almost every pull-up jumper he took - that is such a VAST statistical anomaly for him, I have trouble seeing it happening consistently over a 7 game series - he got up for one game IMO. This team proved last year in the playoffs that they could keep him out of the paint and force jumpers. i'll take my chances.

Nobody likes to look at the first game of the year and count it because  it was so long ago, but the fact is that it was a game that both teams played with the same rosters, full health, and an entire TC and pre-season to prepare. Boston handled them and never relinquished the lead in that game.

Depth is nice - but especially in the playoffs, the starting units are going to factor heavily into the outcomes. Boston's bench players play extremely well when mixed with multiple starters and that's how its going to be.

Boston now has 4 players that look like first option superstar, team-carriers...I like our chances going against LeBron and his merry band of Role players - excactly 2 players on Cleveland can create their own shot, 3 if you count Delonte West...while an excellent team, they are not a team of playmakers - they can be defended.

this is sort of segueing into a different topic because the biggest thing that scares me about CLE is that we don't have anyone other than Pierce to guard LeBron. I'm definitely afraid of Pierce being so worn out in that series by playing D that he won't be able to take over when we need it.

but I would feel a lot better about that situation if we had added a guy like Joe Smith because i feel like he would neutralize some of LeBron's dominance if we threw a guy like Walker at him for 5 or 6 mins a game with his help defense....

now can Moore add that? That's probably the most important question to be answered...

A couple of things on that:

James Posey was not very effective defensively in man situations against LeBron. He was a great team defender and big shot maker, but his man defense was more valuable for the rest it gave Pierce than anything he actually accomplished.

On that note - I would like to see Bill Walker implimented as a part of the rotation, but I don't think another straight man defender is necissary IMO.

LeBron's biggest weakness is shooting the ball. He does his damage by getting into the lane and causing havoc. In that regard, team defensive schemes can be created to mitigate his lane penetration. It doesn't require great individual defenders and it didn't last season either.

In that light, I think that Tony Allen is another key here. Everyone is very quick to point out that Tony isn't tall enough to defend LeBron - but that is irrelevant IMO.

LeBron doesn't post up much at all. He is a pick-and-roll and ISO guy. Considering the strength of the Celtics team defense and LeBron's weakness at shooting the ball, I think Tony Allen is capable of being a quality defensive option on Lebron because he has the footspeed and defensive fundementals to keep LeBron in front of him and force him into jump shots - which is what the team wants from him.

I'd like it if TA could drastically alter his shot by having a hand way up above LeBron's reach, but that is unlikely to be the case from anybody - Pierce and Posey weren't challenging his shot either - you keep a hand up and try to have him rush the motion.

So in short, I never saw the "3 with length" as a gaping hole. Posey was more valuable because of his tenacity, team defensive presence, and clutch shooting - I never really saw his length as his principle asset.

[guava_wrench]

I can't understand the hits Moore and even Ainge are taking.  Moore is a good pickup, an athletic LONG big with good enough foot speed to play in our defense.  (not easy for a big) Perk doesn't really have the speed to attack the high penetration but works at it and PJ worked to cover it but didn't all the time.  Yes kg rocks at it!
 
As for Ainge he didn't replace Posey without a doubt but he didn't pay too much for an older bench guy.  Sam is replaced and improved on with pruitt....does anyone think sam helped last year.  As I remember it he had 1 good game against san antonio than was killing us when on court AND complaining that he should have played more.  POB was a cheap chance that didn't work out but I still think with his offensive skill set he can play in the nba.  I equate pj being replaced (hopefully    ) with moore.  Than we have scal, ta and walker to make up for posey.    In the playoffs last year a reminder, posey couldn't stop lebron it was PP.
oh and again a vote of NO for marbury, i think a fight would break out in locker room

I don't see how Pruitt is an improvement over Sam. Sure, Pruitt can stick with people better on defense, but Pruitt is still underwhelming after a rather long time with the team. Jury is still out.

[winsomme]

Quit being so [dang] negative. Mikki Moore is a huge upgrade from what we had and he is an energy player and that is what we need right now coming off the bench.

i hope you're right. I don't see him as a huge upgrade. IMO we needed an impact player. he seems inferior to BBD, Powe and Scal.

how is that a huge upgrade?

This team has 4 All Stars...what type of "impact" level player are we talking about here?

I just don't think this fanbase can process the difference between last year and this year - its been too long since this team contended and romantic notions of 80's dominance has clouded reality to a degree.

This team is very, very strong and is a true contender -- whatever limitations they have are no greater than any other team...they can beat any team in a 7 game series, but it doesn't mean they are a cake-walk...nor were they last year...

...Marbury will be the 5th All Star talent on the roster if he's added, will that be enough to ease the fear?

take a look at the benches of CLE and LA, BFB. There are impact players there.

We lost two from our bench last season and haven't replaced them. That's where I'm coming from.

I agree that Marbury is an impact player and I hope if he comes here that he will be that added piece that we need.

but i just feel that the position that he plays -  PG - is not the position where we needed the impact. nor is his game built on the elements that i feel are what makes the kind of impact that we are going to need of the bench... namely, defense and toughness.

but, Marbury could be that player. He certainly has enough skills.

It is true that Clevland has some statistically superior players coming off their bench - but where does the fact that we have 4 All Star players in a our starting lineup factor into this equation?

Cleveland is much improved from last year and play excellent team basketball - but they are made up of exactly 1 player who matches or surpasses the ability of 4 of our players.

I'm all about depth, but i don't see Cleveland as a team that is superior to Boston...yes, Boston lost the last game against them - but they were also in the midst of their nightmare portion of the schedule and playing tired and sloppy basketball. LeBron also hit 4-6 3 pointers and almost every pull-up jumper he took - that is such a VAST statistical anomaly for him, I have trouble seeing it happening consistently over a 7 game series - he got up for one game IMO. This team proved last year in the playoffs that they could keep him out of the paint and force jumpers. i'll take my chances.

Nobody likes to look at the first game of the year and count it because  it was so long ago, but the fact is that it was a game that both teams played with the same rosters, full health, and an entire TC and pre-season to prepare. Boston handled them and never relinquished the lead in that game.

Depth is nice - but especially in the playoffs, the starting units are going to factor heavily into the outcomes. Boston's bench players play extremely well when mixed with multiple starters and that's how its going to be.

Boston now has 4 players that look like first option superstar, team-carriers...I like our chances going against LeBron and his merry band of Role players - excactly 2 players on Cleveland can create their own shot, 3 if you count Delonte West...while an excellent team, they are not a team of playmakers - they can be defended.

this is sort of segueing into a different topic because the biggest thing that scares me about CLE is that we don't have anyone other than Pierce to guard LeBron. I'm definitely afraid of Pierce being so worn out in that series by playing D that he won't be able to take over when we need it.

but I would feel a lot better about that situation if we had added a guy like Joe Smith because i feel like he would neutralize some of LeBron's dominance if we threw a guy like Walker at him for 5 or 6 mins a game with his help defense....

now can Moore add that? That's probably the most important question to be answered...

A couple of things on that:

James Posey was not very effective defensively in man situations against LeBron. He was a great team defender and big shot maker, but his man defense was more valuable for the rest it gave Pierce than anything he actually accomplished.

On that note - I would like to see Bill Walker implimented as a part of the rotation, but I don't think another straight man defender is necissary IMO.

LeBron's biggest weakness is shooting the ball. He does his damage by getting into the lane and causing havoc. In that regard, team defensive schemes can be created to mitigate his lane penetration. It doesn't require great individual defenders and it didn't last season either.

In that light, I think that Tony Allen is another key here. Everyone is very quick to point out that Tony isn't tall enough to defend LeBron - but that is irrelevant IMO.

LeBron doesn't post up much at all. He is a pick-and-roll and ISO guy. Considering the strength of the Celtics team defense and LeBron's weakness at shooting the ball, I think Tony Allen is capable of being a quality defensive option on Lebron because he has the footspeed and defensive fundementals to keep LeBron in front of him and force him into jump shots - which is what the team wants from him.

I'd like it if TA could drastically alter his shot by having a hand way up above LeBron's reach, but that is unlikely to be the case from anybody - Pierce and Posey weren't challenging his shot either - you keep a hand up and try to have him rush the motion.

So in short, I never saw the "3 with length" as a gaping hole. Posey was more valuable because of his tenacity, team defensive presence, and clutch shooting - I never really saw his length as his principle asset.

I'm with you on all of this, but you must see how worn out Paul gets having to bang with LeBron.

I agree that Posey by no means shut down LeBron, but he did give Paul that break that he needed and he did have that little extra size to get the hand in the face and like you said he worked well in the team defense schemes. and most importantly he was "tough".

and like i said I would feel better about TA or Walker getting some time on LeBron if he had better replaced PJ. If Smith was taking those minutes, I think we would have a better shot at limiting LeBron's penetration.

I'm scared to death to see Moore making those rotations to cut off LeBron, but maybe he will prove me wrong.

I also fear Varejao getting offensive rebounds over him like he's not even there....

I mean, Moore is going to have to elevate his game so much if he is going to have any kind of impact for us in the playoffs.  

[BillfromBoston]

There is no money and there are no impact players available! I take Mikki Moore over Robert Horry at this point in their careers.

There *is* money.  As of right now, though, you're correct: there are no impact players available.  Joe Smith may be bought out, and I would have waited another week.

I think people are disappointed because all along people defending the off-season were saying "but we'll supplement during the season!".  To date, we've replaced Posey, P.J. and Sam with Mikki Moore.

The thing about that one is...Moore has been statistically superior to the version of PJ Brown we had last year - including his rebounding rate - so I think that his superior mobility, energy, and face-up shot are going to be well-utilized in this team system - remember, Ray and Paul were never known as defenders and neither were as efficient as they are now - changing systems matters.

Secondly, Moore was pretty solid defensively a couple years ago in NJ. I don't think he's slipped that far, I just think that the situation in Sac-Town wasn't conducive to Moore playing his best ball - he's not KG, but give him some defensive support and I think he'll surprise some people.

Finally, we will find out quite soon whether or not Stephon Marbury is coming on board - if he does i think it is unquestionable that Ainge upgraded the roster from last season and was intelligent not to commit multiple years for marginal upgrades....if Marbs doesn't come back i fully expect Sam to be re-signed - I think that was actually a pre-arranged agreement.

I see a lot of bashing of Moore on this board but no willingness to take the situation in Sac-Town into account, nor factor in Moore's personality and how that may have impacted his performance in a losing environment.

If this Celtics team has shown us anything its that a player who will dedicate himself to the system can become more than the sum of his individual ability would suppose...Moore plays his ass off and has had very solid production in the not-so-distant past...

...that leads me to believe that the negativity displayed with this acquisition has much more to do with deflated expectations than it does Moore's probability to contribute...

the expectations are deflated for sure. I'm not bashing Moore. I just don't see how he is an upgrade over players that are already in the rotation.

the only way a guy can be an "impact player" is if he is deserving of minutes that are already going to someone else.

whose minutes deserve to be shortened at this point to get Moore PT?

I hear you, but I think you have to break the game into parts to understand his value.

Moore is a role player - one that the Lakers, Suns, Cavs, Spurs, and Nuggets all apparently valued to some degree.

What he brings is two main elements: face-up spot-shooting from 15-17 feet and length/mobility for the team defensive system.

We've all seen how much better this team plays when Davis and Scal are hitting face-up shots. It is an extension of the benefit KG brings with his range. the interior opens for more one-on-one post play and it improves driving lanes for the guards.

While Moore isn't an upgrade to Powe, Scal, or Davis across the board, he does have a few key strengths that make him a situational upgrade.

I also STRONGLY advice people to stop thinking of players as automaton-robots that produce soulless statistical efforts that are easily predictable.

We've seen and pay lip service so often to KG's intensity or Pierce's heart, yet when we start looking at a role player such as Moore, we boil him down simply to stats.

Moore has played effective statistical basketball in his recent past, so we know he CAN be good in that regard, or has been at some point at least.

What I see in Moore is not greatness, but a niche skill-set that can be a net impact for this team. I also see a player who has shown tremendous competitive intensity and a desire to contribute to winning basketball - I think the Celtics environment will bring out the best in him.

BFB, I hear what you are saying, and i certainly hope you are right.

but my feelings about Moore have very little to do with stats.

just look at PJ from last year. by just about every metric you would have to say that PJ was not much of a factor in our playoff run.

but we all know different. we all know that when PJ came in the game there was a negligible drop-off in maybe the most important category in the playoffs - "toughness".

he also made solid rotations on defense - a big key for the Cs especially. and he made big buckets.

It's all well and good for Moore to have the dimensions to fit the bill, but if he blows a couple of rotations or gets overpowered on the glass by Varejao for a couple of offensive rebounds to give CLE an extra possession or two....then he has been a huge letdown. especially when balanced against what we got out of that spot last year.

a lot of times in games in the playoffs, the battles of the heavyweights is a standstill and the outcome ends up turning on lesser matchups...

I completely agree - but if that's your concern then I don't think you should fear Moore's ability to fit the bill. He has the physical capabilities to play the part, but more improtant, he is a dedicated and intense performer.

He is definitely not lacking "toughness" even if he's lacking bulk. KG is very similar - he is not a great low-post defender in man situations against low post scorers, which is one of the main reasons he avoids playing against bangers as much as possible.

KG uses his length and quickness to defend down low as well as playing the odds and forcing his man to weak spots when possible. KG is a master at funneling his man to help as well.

I think Moore is intelligent and dedicated. In a limited role for this team I have little doubt that Moore will pick up what's asked of him and improve steadily as the season goes on. come playoff time, I  think he'll be very effective in the team defense.

...as for giving up offensive rebounds to Varajao - remember, PJ Brown, KG and company gave up quite a few...Varajao is pretty [dang] good at that, don't be too harsh...

[moiso]

You really don't think Darko and Kwame had/have All Star level talent? They were busts as high picks but they were high picks for a reason. Dark is a reasonably skilled athletic 7 footer. He just never could put the whole game together, happens to very talented players.

Kwame never had the skill but he easily has the physical talent. He is/was an amazing athlete. Just not a good player.

Which season of Marbury's was he a top 2 or 3 point guard in a conference in your mind? I'm looking at his stats and I don't see it. He put up a lot of points but on a lot of shots.

Dude, you gotta drop this argument...Marbury made multiple All Star games and was an Olympian - he was clearly regarded highly enough to have thos credentials as well as become the highest paid player in the NBA at one point.

He has definite flaws - never because the winner or team leader that people expected from his talent, but don't confuse that with not being an elite-level performer...his underachieving was better than many star players best...

He was selected for the Olympics because of his name recognition, he got his name because he has a high scoring average. I'll drop my argument when you actually address my point with something other than All-Star/Olympic suggestions and how much money he makes. Neither make for a good argument.

To go through my thoughts are Marbury more completely. He scored a lot inefficiently, played poor defense, dominated the ball too much, and was a poor teammate through out his career. I don't think he was ever deserving of an all-star berth.

This is getting too OT though.

while i'm not at the same level as you on Marbury, I'm in the same neighborhood. He never lived up to his skill level and mostly that was because he seemed to think that he was the show...

i think he did have some All-Star seasons, but they were never what they should or could have been....

my worry about him coming here is two-fold. One, I think our bench needs different skillsets than he brings to the table. and two, this is a role that he has never really filled.

has he ever shown the ability to be a guy that can come off the bench and not have the game become about what he is doing?

that said, as far as "impact player", he does have that ability IMO....ugh...just crossing my fingers on this whole deal at this point.

not sure what else there is to say about it.

I think i have to stop watching CLE games....

The thing that worries me about Marbury is that I still don't think he feels he has anything to prove.  I don't really get the sense that he wants to show that he's a winner and can help a team compete for a championship.  I don't even get the sense that he really even cares if he' plays basketball at all this year.