The Forgotten Celtic: Cowens

[paulcowens]

It's been interesting to watch the polls regarding the All Time Top Celtics unfold on the front page.  They reflect an interesting story, by ignoring it, of a Celtic who was once considered one of the all time great players;  a Celtic who was once considered to be the heart and soul of a  team that won two championships, established a mini-dynasty,  and arguably dominated its decade more than today's Celtics have dominated the last decade;  a player who is now considered to be little more than an also ran in NBA history.   The first two polls on the front page, regarding all time Celtic greats,  didn't even include Dave Cowens as an option, and today's poll included him, but only as a throw-in, with numerous other players.  How can this possibly make any sense?  Aren't we all about championships?   Aren't we the fandom that recognizes that it isn't all about scoring?    

Havlicek was never the core guy on a championship team.  He was always a key guy, never THE guy.  Paul Pierce won only one championship (so far), and wasn't even the key guy on that championship.  Garnett was.  Robert Parish wasn't necessarily even the third most important guy on the championships of his era.   It's between him and Dennis Johnson.  How can he even be considered for third place all-time when he wasn't necessarily even third best in his era? Tommy Heinsoh?  Kevin Mchale?  Does anyone seriously think that those two guys, great as they were, would have been nearly as good if they weren't next to Bill Russell and Larry Bird?

 What happened?  How did these guys, all of whom were great players, manage to obscure community memory of Dave Cowens?  Does anyone seriously think that the seventies Celtics would have accomplished what they did without Big Red?    In my opinion, the way the front page poll has been handled, has been disgraceful.  How can you exclude/minimize the leader of one of our dynasties?   Folks, you do remember, right, that Larry himself only won one more championship than Cowens did, and that was with a lot more help by his side?  Who was a better sidekick scorer, Havlicek or Mchale?  Who was a better guard, JoJo or DJ?   Larry had a better team to work with than Cowens, and played longer, and still only won one more championship than Cowens.  

I think the reason for all this is that Cowens was a free spirit, and people just don't like that.

[Jeff]

welcome to the Celtics history, it isn't enough to be a 2 time champ, you have to have 3 or more!  (note: the Pierce inclusion flies in the face of that argument, though I kind of put him in there as a red herring)

also, I've asked each time for "other" votes and suggestions for the list

this is why it is fun to debate   I encourage this line of questioning

[CelticsFanNC]

  Thats the nature of a franchise as storied as the Celtic's are. 

  Cowens would be the best player in the history of quite a few NBA teams with his resume. 

  He was my original favorite player.  I started following the NBA in the mid 70's at the age of 10.  Cowens was in his prime, outplaying guys who were a half a foot taller then he was.  In over 40 years of following the NBA I've never seen anyone who played harder then Dave Cowens did.

[Roy H.]

In my opinion, the way the front page poll has been handled, has been disgraceful.

Disgraceful?  I think you might be taking things a little too seriously.

I don't think there's a serious argument that Cowens is the best or second best Celtic of all-time.  Personally, I have a hard time ranking him in the top four; Cousy is the next best behind Hondo, who starred during two separate eras of Celtic greatness.  (For comparison, Cousy made 12 All-NBA teams, Havlicek made 11, and Cowens made 3).

I think the debate concerning Cowens starts around #5, where he has competition from Sam Jones (the most underrated Celtic of all time), McHale, and Pierce.

[Jeff]

ha, missed the "disgraceful" line but that's fine - I'm working on developing a thick  skin

[PosImpos]

Cowens suffers from having peaked during a weak point for the NBA.  The ABA had taken a lot of the more athletic players away from the NBA, and the center position was a little bit weak post-Russell and post-Wilt.  Kareem was the main competition Cowens had at the center position, and supposedly there was a tacit agreement among refs that allowed smaller hustle guys like Cowens to climb all over Kareem and push him around.

As soon as the NBA integrated and the game became faster paced and more athletic, Cowens faded.  He was a very good player, no doubt about it, but I think it's fair to say he ranks behind Havlicek, Pierce, and Cousy on the All-Time Celtics list. 

I'd even consider putting McHale ahead of him, even though McHale never won an MVP, and I think Parish is close behind him.

[paulcowens]

welcome to the Celtics history, it isn't enough to be a 2 time champ, you have to have 3 or more!  (note: the Pierce inclusion flies in the face of that argument, though I kind of put him in there as a red herring)

also, I've asked each time for "other" votes and suggestions for the list

this is why it is fun to debate   I encourage this line of questioning

The real issue, I think, is that Cowens was the key guy on his team.  Six championships where you weren't the key guy don't compare to two championships where you were.    If they did, Rodman would be above Larry on the all time NBA great players list!

[paulcowens]

  Thats the nature of a franchise as storied as the Celtic's are. 

  Cowens would be the best player in the history of quite a few NBA teams with his resume. 

  He was my original favorite player.  I started following the NBA in the mid 70's at the age of 10.  Cowens was in his prime, outplaying guys who were a half a foot taller then he was.  In over 40 years of following the NBA I've never seen anyone who played harder then Dave Cowens did.

I really don't think so, CelticsFanNC.  I think that the top three positions should be locked in as Russell, Bird and Cowens, because these were the three guys who led us to multiple championships.  If Pierce wins another, then maybe he moves ahead of Cowens.   I agree with your point about the way he played, though.  I was watching some footage of his play last night, and I was struck by the impression that in his head he was seven feet tall!

[Donoghus]

  Thats the nature of a franchise as storied as the Celtic's are. 

  Cowens would be the best player in the history of quite a few NBA teams with his resume. 

  He was my original favorite player.  I started following the NBA in the mid 70's at the age of 10.  Cowens was in his prime, outplaying guys who were a half a foot taller then he was.  In over 40 years of following the NBA I've never seen anyone who played harder then Dave Cowens did.

I really don't think so, CelticsFanNC.  I think that the top three positions should be locked in as Russell, Bird and Cowens, because these were the three guys who led us to multiple championships.  If Pierce wins another, then maybe he moves ahead of Cowens.   I agree with your point about the way he played, though.  I was watching some footage of his play last night, and I was struck by the impression that in his head he was seven feet tall!

Cowens over Hondo? I don't see it.

[BballTim]

welcome to the Celtics history, it isn't enough to be a 2 time champ, you have to have 3 or more!  (note: the Pierce inclusion flies in the face of that argument, though I kind of put him in there as a red herring)

also, I've asked each time for "other" votes and suggestions for the list

this is why it is fun to debate   I encourage this line of questioning

The real issue, I think, is that Cowens was the key guy on his team.  Six championships where you weren't the key guy don't compare to two championships where you were.    If they did, Rodman would be above Larry on the all time NBA great players list!

  That's based on the assumption that winning titles is the sole definition of greatness, in which your best player since the 60s would be Robert Horry.

[CelticsFanNC]

  Thats the nature of a franchise as storied as the Celtic's are. 

  Cowens would be the best player in the history of quite a few NBA teams with his resume. 

  He was my original favorite player.  I started following the NBA in the mid 70's at the age of 10.  Cowens was in his prime, outplaying guys who were a half a foot taller then he was.  In over 40 years of following the NBA I've never seen anyone who played harder then Dave Cowens did.

I really don't think so, CelticsFanNC.  I think that the top three positions should be locked in as Russell, Bird and Cowens, because these were the three guys who led us to multiple championships.  If Pierce wins another, then maybe he moves ahead of Cowens.   I agree with your point about the way he played, though.  I was watching some footage of his play last night, and I was struck by the impression that in his head he was seven feet tall!

  See I think it should be Hondo over Cowens.  Hondo was a part of two separate eras in with the Celtics dominated.  Even if Cowens was the best player on those two titles teams Havlicek was the go to guy and the lock down wing defender.  His NBA Finals series in 1974 was one for the ages.  Havlicek also was probably already a HOFer before Cowens even became a Celtic.  

[paulcowens]

In my opinion, the way the front page poll has been handled, has been disgraceful.

Disgraceful?  I think you might be taking things a little too seriously.

I don't think there's a serious argument that Cowens is the best or second best Celtic of all-time.  Personally, I have a hard time ranking him in the top four; Cousy is the next best behind Hondo, who starred during two separate eras of Celtic greatness.  (For comparison, Cousy made 12 All-NBA teams, Havlicek made 11, and Cowens made 3).

I think the debate concerning Cowens starts around #5, where he has competition from Sam Jones (the most underrated Celtic of all time), McHale, and Pierce.

First, I don't think there is a serious argument for ANYONE other than Russell and Bird being best or second best alltime.  

Second, I think you are right about Sam Jones being underrated, but I think you surely know that Cowens was chronically underrated.  I saw Russell complaining the other day that he thought he was the only player who won the MVP but still couldn't get selected as All NBA first team.  Well Cowens got the same treatment.  He didn't dominate the center position in classic style, so he was always underappreciated.  What surprises me is that it seems to be even worse today, when we should have more appreciation that there's more than one way to make it work as the Big Man.  Cowens substituted energy for height, and he made it work.  He also pioneered, I believe, the idea of a long-shooting Big who could play outside the paint tactically.

 My point is that I thought we were a fandom that appreciated a players' whole game, and their entire affect on the game, and not just their glory stats.  Havlicek was one of the best second guys of all time, much like McHale, much like Cousy - but none of these guys were the kind of guys you could hang a great team around.  Cowens was that guy for the seventies.    So yes, I think leaving him off the list of choices for round one and two, and then kind-of sneaking him onto the list for round three was ridiculous, and I say disgraceful because I thought we prided ourselves on a deeper knowledge of the game around here.  

The best argument for three that doesn't involve Cowens can be made for Cousy, because he was the one who started the Celtics winning tradition (but not the championship winning tradition) and because he pretty much invented the point guard tradition, so nobly carried forward now by Rondo.   Give Pierce another championship and he'll be in on that discussion - though he is another who, like Havlicek and Mchale, was the peerless second man, but not the first man.

[paulcowens]

  Thats the nature of a franchise as storied as the Celtic's are. 

  Cowens would be the best player in the history of quite a few NBA teams with his resume. 

  He was my original favorite player.  I started following the NBA in the mid 70's at the age of 10.  Cowens was in his prime, outplaying guys who were a half a foot taller then he was.  In over 40 years of following the NBA I've never seen anyone who played harder then Dave Cowens did.

I really don't think so, CelticsFanNC.  I think that the top three positions should be locked in as Russell, Bird and Cowens, because these were the three guys who led us to multiple championships.  If Pierce wins another, then maybe he moves ahead of Cowens.   I agree with your point about the way he played, though.  I was watching some footage of his play last night, and I was struck by the impression that in his head he was seven feet tall!

  See I think it should be Hondo over Cowens.  Hondo was a part of two separate eras in with the Celtics dominated.  Even if Cowens was the best player on those two titles teams Havlicek was the go to guy and the lock down wing defender.  His NBA Finals series in 1974 was one for the ages.  Havlicek also was probably already a HOFer before Cowens even became a Celtic.  

I'm not putting Havlicek down.  He was a great player.  But the fact that he bridged two great eras was a tribute to his greatness as a peerless second man.  Being a great second man is  a tremendous thing to be.  A great team needs that.  But it's a step down in greatness from the guy the team hangs around.

[paulcowens]

  Thats the nature of a franchise as storied as the Celtic's are. 

  Cowens would be the best player in the history of quite a few NBA teams with his resume. 

  He was my original favorite player.  I started following the NBA in the mid 70's at the age of 10.  Cowens was in his prime, outplaying guys who were a half a foot taller then he was.  In over 40 years of following the NBA I've never seen anyone who played harder then Dave Cowens did.

I really don't think so, CelticsFanNC.  I think that the top three positions should be locked in as Russell, Bird and Cowens, because these were the three guys who led us to multiple championships.  If Pierce wins another, then maybe he moves ahead of Cowens.   I agree with your point about the way he played, though.  I was watching some footage of his play last night, and I was struck by the impression that in his head he was seven feet tall!

Cowens over Hondo? I don't see it.

What can I say.  Hondo scored a lot of points.  He must be a better player than Cowens.

[paulcowens]

ha, missed the "disgraceful" line but that's fine - I'm working on developing a thick  skin

Look, you skewed the poll towards the most hyped players.