Author Topic: Cap Gurus: Is This The Way To S&T Rozier For AD?  (Read 6693 times)

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Re: Cap Gurus: Is This The Way To S&T Rozier For AD?
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2019, 12:11:31 PM »

Offline saltlover

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Tell me that I'm not missing something, because the idea of potentially being able to keep both Smart and Brown makes me incredibly happy.

It would make me very happy as well. 

S&T are very confusing.  I thought you couldn’t combine a S&T player with other salaries, only by himself.   I think the exception to this rule is if the receiving team is under the cap.  I could be completely wrong about this though. Lol

I have heard a lot of people indicate this is a rule, but I Don’t believe that it is.  It’s not found anywhere in the CBA or CBA FAQ as far as I know. I know that Keith Van Horn. was combined with other players when he was signed and traded.

I do not believe this to be a rule.  There are some restrictions on sign-and-trades, but this is not one of them.

Re: Cap Gurus: Is This The Way To S&T Rozier For AD?
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2019, 12:25:36 PM »

Online Roy H.

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You can, but also remember, AD may have to waive his trade kicker

I think that if we include Semi, we can structure it in a way that works, even if Davis refuses to waive the trade bonus.


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Re: Cap Gurus: Is This The Way To S&T Rozier For AD?
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2019, 01:08:35 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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I'm currently against dealing Tatum but man that deal would be tempting depending on if the team has to include more than two 1st round picks

Re: Cap Gurus: Is This The Way To S&T Rozier For AD?
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2019, 02:12:59 PM »

Offline gpap

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I would think the Pelicans would want Smart over Rozier. Smart has become one of the improved players in the league with a reputation of playing great defense. Rozier has not ascended to the level Smart has.

Honestly, if I am the Pelicans, I am targeting Tatum, Smart, our potential 4 first rounders this season and whatever throw-in you want to include to make salaries match. That's probably why they're going to hire a new GM. To make sure they get the best return possible for their franchise player.

I think the Pelicans would view Smart and Holiday as a very good back-court, with Tatum on the wing and possibly Diallo and Randle as their front court.


Re: Cap Gurus: Is This The Way To S&T Rozier For AD?
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2019, 02:19:24 PM »

Online Roy H.

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I would think the Pelicans would want Smart over Rozier. Smart has become one of the improved players in the league with a reputation of playing great defense. Rozier has not ascended to the level Smart has.

Honestly, if I am the Pelicans, I am targeting Tatum, Smart, our potential 4 first rounders this season and whatever throw-in you want to include to make salaries match. That's probably why they're going to hire a new GM. To make sure they get the best return possible for their franchise player.

I think the Pelicans would view Smart and Holiday as a very good back-court, with Tatum on the wing and possibly Diallo and Randle as their front court.

The Pelicans would prefer Smart, but so would we. They don’t necessarily get everything they want.  Getting Tatum, Williams, as many as five #1s, and a look at Rozier for a year isn’t a bad offer.


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Re: Cap Gurus: Is This The Way To S&T Rozier For AD?
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2019, 02:26:45 PM »

Offline BitterJim

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Tell me that I'm not missing something, because the idea of potentially being able to keep both Smart and Brown makes me incredibly happy.

It would make me very happy as well. 

S&T are very confusing.  I thought you couldn’t combine a S&T player with other salaries, only by himself.   I think the exception to this rule is if the receiving team is under the cap.  I could be completely wrong about this though. Lol

I have heard a lot of people indicate this is a rule, but I Don’t believe that it is.  It’s not found anywhere in the CBA or CBA FAQ as far as I know. I know that Keith Van Horn. was combined with other players when he was signed and traded.

I do not believe this to be a rule.  There are some restrictions on sign-and-trades, but this is not one of them.

I haven't seen any such rule, either. There are complications if we want to combine a sign-and-trade with signing and then trading rookies (since it requires the sign-and-traded player to risk being a FA in late July if the deal falls through (since the rookies could only be traded 30 days after signing), but nothing rules-wise that prevents combining
I'm bitter.

Re: Cap Gurus: Is This The Way To S&T Rozier For AD?
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2019, 02:38:11 PM »

Offline blink

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If we can somehow keep Smart and Brown while trading for Davis.  That is a complete win for Danny.  Hard to know if that is possible or not without knowing what the other teams will be bidding.

Re: Cap Gurus: Is This The Way To S&T Rozier For AD?
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2019, 03:13:47 PM »

Offline Green-18

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I would think the Pelicans would want Smart over Rozier. Smart has become one of the improved players in the league with a reputation of playing great defense. Rozier has not ascended to the level Smart has.

Honestly, if I am the Pelicans, I am targeting Tatum, Smart, our potential 4 first rounders this season and whatever throw-in you want to include to make salaries match. That's probably why they're going to hire a new GM. To make sure they get the best return possible for their franchise player.

I think the Pelicans would view Smart and Holiday as a very good back-court, with Tatum on the wing and possibly Diallo and Randle as their front court.

The Pelicans would prefer Smart, but so would we. They don’t necessarily get everything they want.  Getting Tatum, Williams, as many as five #1s, and a look at Rozier for a year isn’t a bad offer.

I'd even say that it's a very good offer.  The Pelicans need a package of trade-able assets for a series of future moves.  Acquiring Tatum means nothing if they can't win a couple of trades and nail their draft picks.  I'm confident that Ainge is able to keep Smart and Brown as long as the money lines up.

Re: Cap Gurus: Is This The Way To S&T Rozier For AD?
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2019, 03:25:41 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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You can, but also remember, AD may have to waive his trade kicker

I think that if we include Semi, we can structure it in a way that works, even if Davis refuses to waive the trade bonus.
I sent a PM to you replying to this. If we need more money due to the trade kicker we could simply put off the trade until we can sign the draft picks and consummate the trade 30 days later using their salary.

It's a creative way to get the trade done. Now just gotta convince New Orleans and Scary Terry that this is good for them. I like it.

I have my doubts but anything is possible. My bet is NOP would come back hard insisting on Brown or Smart.

Re: Cap Gurus: Is This The Way To S&T Rozier For AD?
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2019, 03:35:05 PM »

Online mef730

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Tell me that I'm not missing something, because the idea of potentially being able to keep both Smart and Brown makes me incredibly happy.

It would make me very happy as well. 

S&T are very confusing.  I thought you couldn’t combine a S&T player with other salaries, only by himself.   I think the exception to this rule is if the receiving team is under the cap.  I could be completely wrong about this though. Lol

I have heard a lot of people indicate this is a rule, but I Don’t believe that it is.  It’s not found anywhere in the CBA or CBA FAQ as far as I know. I know that Keith Van Horn. was combined with other players when he was signed and traded.

I do not believe this to be a rule.  There are some restrictions on sign-and-trades, but this is not one of them.

TP in the hopes that you'll realize that answering salary cap questions for people you've never met on a random message board is far, far more important than your personal and professional life.

Mike

Re: Cap Gurus: Is This The Way To S&T Rozier For AD?
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2019, 03:35:38 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Tell me that I'm not missing something, because the idea of potentially being able to keep both Smart and Brown makes me incredibly happy.

It would make me very happy as well. 

S&T are very confusing.  I thought you couldn’t combine a S&T player with other salaries, only by himself.   I think the exception to this rule is if the receiving team is under the cap.  I could be completely wrong about this though. Lol

I have heard a lot of people indicate this is a rule, but I Don’t believe that it is.  It’s not found anywhere in the CBA or CBA FAQ as far as I know. I know that Keith Van Horn. was combined with other players when he was signed and traded.

I do not believe this to be a rule.  There are some restrictions on sign-and-trades, but this is not one of them.

I haven't seen any such rule, either. There are complications if we want to combine a sign-and-trade with signing and then trading rookies (since it requires the sign-and-traded player to risk being a FA in late July if the deal falls through (since the rookies could only be traded 30 days after signing), but nothing rules-wise that prevents combining
It's really not much of a risk as Boston will have already drafted New Orleans' players that would be included in the trade and since Boston can negotiate with Rozier, he would already be okay with the sign and trade.

Yes, everything could go sideways and Rozier would then be a free agent late in July. Well if the deal blows up, there is a great chance Kyrie is gone so Boston can just sign him to be their starting PG, a role Rozier has shined in.

Re: Cap Gurus: Is This The Way To S&T Rozier For AD?
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2019, 08:41:13 PM »

Offline JBcat

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I’m liking this trade idea more and more, but something else I’ve been thinking is if the Grizzlies pick is necessary to include as that pick could be gold in a potential great draft at the top.

If Tatum is our prime trade chip that trumps other teams best single trade chip (Knicks getting 1st or 2nd pick will have at the very least similar value) maybe we can hold onto that Grizzlies pick.

Let’s compare directly to Lakers offer that was thrown out there.

Tatum beats out Ingram.

Starter Rozier just might be better than Ball now, although Ball still has the higher upside.

Williams verses Kuzma.  Kuzma is polarizing.  He averages almost 20 a game, but is almost 25 seems like a chucker shooting 30% from 3 and doesn’t provide much defense.  How much does he really add to winning?  Williams on the other hand has tantalizing Clint Capella talent maybe more at 21 in an area that really impacts winning.

The Lakers 2 number 1 picks (including this year) probably hold very similar value to the Kings and Clippers pick (at this moment remaining end of season and ping pong balls could change things).

In the end with these 2 trade packages you probably take the Celtics because of Tatum.

The Grizzlies pick might be viewed as the 2nd best asset out of everything listed here if you included it.

If you look at the KG trade even though 31 at the time still a top 5 player, but he also had 1 year left on his contract.  Al Jefferson was the golden piece of that trade (to compare Tatum probably trumps Al as well).  The rest was just kind of blah Gomes, Telfair, Green, Ratliff (salary filler), 2 future firsts (think they were both our own picks but could be wrong).  You could argue Rozier (starter Rozier that is lol) is better than anything after Jefferson in that trade.

Re: Cap Gurus: Is This The Way To S&T Rozier For AD?
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2019, 08:53:40 PM »

Offline BitterJim

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Tell me that I'm not missing something, because the idea of potentially being able to keep both Smart and Brown makes me incredibly happy.

It would make me very happy as well. 

S&T are very confusing.  I thought you couldn’t combine a S&T player with other salaries, only by himself.   I think the exception to this rule is if the receiving team is under the cap.  I could be completely wrong about this though. Lol

I have heard a lot of people indicate this is a rule, but I Don’t believe that it is.  It’s not found anywhere in the CBA or CBA FAQ as far as I know. I know that Keith Van Horn. was combined with other players when he was signed and traded.

I do not believe this to be a rule.  There are some restrictions on sign-and-trades, but this is not one of them.

I haven't seen any such rule, either. There are complications if we want to combine a sign-and-trade with signing and then trading rookies (since it requires the sign-and-traded player to risk being a FA in late July if the deal falls through (since the rookies could only be traded 30 days after signing), but nothing rules-wise that prevents combining
It's really not much of a risk as Boston will have already drafted New Orleans' players that would be included in the trade and since Boston can negotiate with Rozier, he would already be okay with the sign and trade.

Yes, everything could go sideways and Rozier would then be a free agent late in July. Well if the deal blows up, there is a great chance Kyrie is gone so Boston can just sign him to be their starting PG, a role Rozier has shined in.

The risk isnt huge, but its there. The biggest issue with it is if another team offers them the same amount, since most people would take the same money/years from a team of their choice over a sign and trade to the rebuilding Pelicans. Paying them more can avoid that, and make salary matching easier, but there's a limit to how much the Pelicans will be willing to pay those guys
I'm bitter.

Re: Cap Gurus: Is This The Way To S&T Rozier For AD?
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2019, 09:07:42 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I’m liking this trade idea more and more, but something else I’ve been thinking is if the Grizzlies pick is necessary to include as that pick could be gold in a potential great draft at the top.

If Tatum is our prime trade chip that trumps other teams best single trade chip (Knicks getting 1st or 2nd pick will have at the very least similar value) maybe we can hold onto that Grizzlies pick.

Let’s compare directly to Lakers offer that was thrown out there.

Tatum beats out Ingram.

Starter Rozier just might be better than Ball now, although Ball still has the higher upside.

Williams verses Kuzma.  Kuzma is polarizing.  He averages almost 20 a game, but is almost 25 seems like a chucker shooting 30% from 3 and doesn’t provide much defense.  How much does he really add to winning?  Williams on the other hand has tantalizing Clint Capella talent maybe more at 21 in an area that really impacts winning.

The Lakers 2 number 1 picks (including this year) probably hold very similar value to the Kings and Clippers pick (at this moment remaining end of season and ping pong balls could change things).

In the end with these 2 trade packages you probably take the Celtics because of Tatum.

The Grizzlies pick might be viewed as the 2nd best asset out of everything listed here if you included it.

If you look at the KG trade even though 31 at the time still a top 5 player, but he also had 1 year left on his contract.  Al Jefferson was the golden piece of that trade (to compare Tatum probably trumps Al as well).  The rest was just kind of blah Gomes, Telfair, Green, Ratliff (salary filler), 2 future firsts (think they were both our own picks but could be wrong).  You could argue Rozier (starter Rozier that is lol) is better than anything after Jefferson in that trade.
Actually in 2007, Gerald Green at just 20 years old was still considered a very good prospect with huge potential upside. And the Wolves got 2 2009 1st rounders from Boston.

The 28th, that was Boston's where they took Wayne Ellington but left DeJuan Blair, Jonas Jerebko, Patrick Beverly, Patty Mills and Danny Green on the board.

And

The 6th pick, their own pick, that Boston had gotten in the Wally Szczerbiak trade. The Wolves took Jonny Flynn. With the 7th pick Golden State took Steph Curry.

That Minnesota pick was going to be gold because it was obvious Minny was blowing it up and the 2009 Minny pick was going to be a good lottery pick. Kahn was just an idiot and decided to draft 3 PGs in a draft with none of the 3 being Steph Curry, even though they had 2 shots at him.

Re: Cap Gurus: Is This The Way To S&T Rozier For AD?
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2019, 09:19:55 PM »

Online Roy H.

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I’m liking this trade idea more and more, but something else I’ve been thinking is if the Grizzlies pick is necessary to include as that pick could be gold in a potential great draft at the top.

If Tatum is our prime trade chip that trumps other teams best single trade chip (Knicks getting 1st or 2nd pick will have at the very least similar value) maybe we can hold onto that Grizzlies pick.

Let’s compare directly to Lakers offer that was thrown out there.

Tatum beats out Ingram.

Starter Rozier just might be better than Ball now, although Ball still has the higher upside.

Williams verses Kuzma.  Kuzma is polarizing.  He averages almost 20 a game, but is almost 25 seems like a chucker shooting 30% from 3 and doesn’t provide much defense.  How much does he really add to winning?  Williams on the other hand has tantalizing Clint Capella talent maybe more at 21 in an area that really impacts winning.

The Lakers 2 number 1 picks (including this year) probably hold very similar value to the Kings and Clippers pick (at this moment remaining end of season and ping pong balls could change things).

In the end with these 2 trade packages you probably take the Celtics because of Tatum.

The Grizzlies pick might be viewed as the 2nd best asset out of everything listed here if you included it.

If you look at the KG trade even though 31 at the time still a top 5 player, but he also had 1 year left on his contract.  Al Jefferson was the golden piece of that trade (to compare Tatum probably trumps Al as well).  The rest was just kind of blah Gomes, Telfair, Green, Ratliff (salary filler), 2 future firsts (think they were both our own picks but could be wrong).  You could argue Rozier (starter Rozier that is lol) is better than anything after Jefferson in that trade.
Actually in 2007, Gerald Green at just 20 years old was still considered a very good prospect with huge potential upside. And the Wolves got 2 2009 1st rounders from Boston.

The 28th, that was Boston's where they took Wayne Ellington but left DeJuan Blair, Jonas Jerebko, Patrick Beverly, Patty Mills and Danny Green on the board.

And

The 6th pick, their own pick, that Boston had gotten in the Wally Szczerbiak trade. The Wolves took Jonny Flynn. With the 7th pick Golden State took Steph Curry.

That Minnesota pick was going to be gold because it was obvious Minny was blowing it up and the 2009 Minny pick was going to be a good lottery pick. Kahn was just an idiot and decided to draft 3 PGs in a draft with none of the 3 being Steph Curry, even though they had 2 shots at him.

That Minnesota pick that we traded back to them would have never conveyed, due to existing protections.  I believe it was due to eventually convert to two second rounders.

As for Kahn, yeah...  he spent three firsts on PGs, and yet missed the two best PGs in the draft (Curry and Holiday).  They drafted possibly the third best (Lawson) but dealt him away immediately.

EDIT:  Here are the pick protections that were originally on that Minnesota pick while we owned it:

Quote
Aside from our own picks, the Celtics are likely entitled to receive a future first-round pick from the Minnesota Timberwolves. Due to a league rule prohibiting teams from ever placing themselves in a situation where two consecutive future first-round picks have been traded away, the Celtics cannot receive the first round pick the Timberwolves owe from the Ricky Davis/Wally Szczerbiak trade until two years after the Timberwolves send a pick to the Clippers (from the Sam Cassell/Marko Jaric trade). However, because the Clippers trade involved top 10 "protection," Minnesota only has to send the pick to the Clippers if the pick falls outside the top 10 picks in the draft. Therefore, in future years, Celtics fans should be rooting for Minnesota to win (when, of course, they're not playing against the Celtics) until the Timberwolves finish a season out of the bottom ten, and send their pick to the Clippers. Two years after this occurs, the Timberwolves will send their first-round pick to the Celtics, subject to some "protection" which decreases annually after the first year in which we could receive the pick.*

    The situation is further complicated by a league rule that prevents any deals being made involving drafts more than 7 drafts into the future; as a result the Celtics cannot receive Minnesota's pick after the 2012 draft, since the Ricky/Wally trade was made before the 2006 draft. Therefore, if the Timberwolves do not send a pick to the Clippers by the end of the 2010 draft, the Celtics will be unable to receive the Timberwolves' first-round pick in 2012, and will instead receive a second-round pick in 2012.

* For those die-hard draft fans who want all the details, here's how the protection on this pick works: If the Timberwolves send a pick to the Clippers in 2007, we receive the Timberwolves' pick in 2009 if it falls outside of the top 14, in 2010 if it falls outside of the top 5, in 2011 if it falls outside of the top 3, or in 2012 unconditionally. If the Timberwolves send a pick to the Clippers in 2008, we receive the Timberwolves' pick in 2010 if it falls outside of the top 14, in 2011 if it falls outside of the top 5, or in 2012 unconditionally. If the Timberwolves send a pick to the Clippers in 2009, we receive the Timberwolves' pick in 2011 if it falls outside the top 14, or in 2012 unconditionally. Finally, if the Timberwolves send a pick to the Clippers in 2010, we receive the Timberwolves' pick in 2012 unconditionally.

The Clippers ended up owning Minnesota's 2012 #1, which they dealt to New Orleans in the Chris Paul trade (yielding the disappointing return of Austin Rivers.)

We would have ended up with Minnesota's 2012 second rounder.  That pick eventually got re-dealt to Houston, who sent it to Portland, who selected Will Barton (who was subsequently traded to Denver).
« Last Edit: February 19, 2019, 09:40:30 PM by Roy H. »


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