How much will our defense and rebounding suffer with Hayward as a starter?

[SCeltic34]

With Hayward likely pegged to start instead of Baynes, a dropoff in defense and rebounding is my biggest concern especially early in the season.  We had one of the best defenses in the league last season, including the best defensive rating.  Baynes was a big reason for that. 

According to Basketball Reference on/off stats, when Baynes was on the court, the opposing team:
- eFG% was .024 lower (.480 vs .504)
- OReb% was 5.8% lower
- Total Reb was 4.1% lower
- Offensive Rating was lower by 6.8

And the eye test correlated with the stats.  It was also incredibly refreshing watching games where we didn’t get obliterated on the boards (remember when we hoped Fab Melo might help solve that problem?  RIP).

On the other hand, our defensive versatility will be remarkable with Hayward instead of Baynes.  Horford, Tatum, Hayward, and Brown should all be able to switch readily in PnRs, and our athleticism and speed on defense will be top notch.  I do believe that our offensive production will offset the dropoff in our defense, but our defense will nonetheless suffer.  The question is how much.  I'd be interested to see if anyone disagrees with that. 

Also, Brad was not happy with our defense in practice today.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZ26o8IsxNA .  1:46 mark.  Gotta love Brad.  You can tell he's locked into the task at hand.

[SCeltic34]

Turns out I put this topic in the wrong forum.  Oh well.

[trickybilly]

TP for cooling off my boner for this year. Seriously, was getting uncomfortable.

[playdream]

People underrated Hayward's defense, we will have much more switch versatility with him , also his offense output should not be overlooked

As for rebounds that's why we draft Robert Williams the III

[Smartacus]

Kyrie stated he was excited about getting getting on the court with a 2 guard like Hayward who can shoot and make plays. As incredible as Baynes has been, Hayward has to be tried at the 2 to see what we have with our top lineup.

Even if there's growing pains and time spent to getting getting GH's legs under him, this is the lineup that is going to be matching up with GS and Toronto.

Any time used for building that chemistry is well spent. Maybe you take him out realitivly early for Smart, Morris. or Baynes so that you could bring him back early in the second quarter to run point as the primary ball handler until you put Kyrie back in and they finish the game in the same backcourt.

Not sure I like Bench Hayward but I'd try out staggered Hayward.

[RockinRyA]

Kyrie stated he was excited about getting getting on the court with a 2 guard like Hayward who can shoot and make plays. As incredible as Baynes has been, Hayward has to be tried at the 2 to see what we have with our top lineup.

Even if there's growing pains and time spent to getting getting GH's legs under him, this is the lineup that is going to be matching up with GS and Toronto.

Any time used for building that chemistry is well spent. Maybe you take him out realitivly early for Smart, Morris. or Baynes so that you could bring him back early in the second quarter to run point as the primary ball handler until you put Kyrie back in and they finish the game in the same backcourt.

Not sure I like Bench Hayward but I'd try out staggered Hayward.

This notion that Hayward is a 2 has to be dispelled. During his last year with the Jazz, a top defensive team, he played as a 3 and 4. Played the 4 mostly during playoffs.

[gouki88]

Kyrie stated he was excited about getting getting on the court with a 2 guard like Hayward who can shoot and make plays. As incredible as Baynes has been, Hayward has to be tried at the 2 to see what we have with our top lineup.

Even if there's growing pains and time spent to getting getting GH's legs under him, this is the lineup that is going to be matching up with GS and Toronto.

Any time used for building that chemistry is well spent. Maybe you take him out realitivly early for Smart, Morris. or Baynes so that you could bring him back early in the second quarter to run point as the primary ball handler until you put Kyrie back in and they finish the game in the same backcourt.

Not sure I like Bench Hayward but I'd try out staggered Hayward.

This notion that Hayward is a 2 has to be dispelled. During his last year with the Jazz, a top defensive team, he played as a 3 and 4. Played the 4 mostly during playoffs.

I think you're getting too hung up on traditional positions, which neither we nor the '16-'17 playoff Jazz implemented. The Jazz mostly started Gobert/Diaw/Hayward/Ingles/Hill (when they were all healthy), but 5 of their top 6 guys in MPG over the playoffs were guards/wings.
That's very similar to what we will be doing this season, with Kyrie, GH, Al, JT, JB, TRoz, Marcus x2 and Baynes being our top 10 guys. There are only two bigs in that lot, and Al is by no means a banger down low.

Offensively, Hayward will be a ball-handling and playmaking wing, whereas I think JB will most likely handle the ball less than him, and work more off the ball. Defensively I think JB will guard 2's mostly, because of his athleticism. Ultimately, it doesn't really matter because, as Brad has said, we don't adhere to the PG/SG/SF/PF/C lineup, but more general classifications.

And to OP's point, I don't think it will matter for a couple of reasons. Chiefly, Hayward is a vastly underrated defender, and gives us a lot more versatility on that end than Baynes does, and on the other end we are almost immeasurably more dangerous with Hayward than with Baynes.

[moiso]

Hayward has skill that allow him to play some 2 but his body certainly looks more like 3 or 4.  He's a big strong dude.

[Celtics4ever]

I think our rebounding will be ok, we have to see him play until we know about the defense.

[RockinRyA]

Kyrie stated he was excited about getting getting on the court with a 2 guard like Hayward who can shoot and make plays. As incredible as Baynes has been, Hayward has to be tried at the 2 to see what we have with our top lineup.

Even if there's growing pains and time spent to getting getting GH's legs under him, this is the lineup that is going to be matching up with GS and Toronto.

Any time used for building that chemistry is well spent. Maybe you take him out realitivly early for Smart, Morris. or Baynes so that you could bring him back early in the second quarter to run point as the primary ball handler until you put Kyrie back in and they finish the game in the same backcourt.

Not sure I like Bench Hayward but I'd try out staggered Hayward.

This notion that Hayward is a 2 has to be dispelled. During his last year with the Jazz, a top defensive team, he played as a 3 and 4. Played the 4 mostly during playoffs.

I think you're getting too hung up on traditional positions, which neither we nor the '16-'17 playoff Jazz implemented. The Jazz mostly started Gobert/Diaw/Hayward/Ingles/Hill (when they were all healthy), but 5 of their top 6 guys in MPG over the playoffs were guards/wings.
That's very similar to what we will be doing this season, with Kyrie, GH, Al, JT, JB, TRoz, Marcus x2 and Baynes being our top 10 guys. There are only two bigs in that lot, and Al is by no means a banger down low.

Offensively, Hayward will be a ball-handling and playmaking wing, whereas I think JB will most likely handle the ball less than him, and work more off the ball. Defensively I think JB will guard 2's mostly, because of his athleticism. Ultimately, it doesn't really matter because, as Brad has said, we don't adhere to the PG/SG/SF/PF/C lineup, but more general classifications.

And to OP's point, I don't think it will matter for a couple of reasons. Chiefly, Hayward is a vastly underrated defender, and gives us a lot more versatility on that end than Baynes does, and on the other end we are almost immeasurably more dangerous with Hayward than with Baynes.

LOL we are talking about defense here. Other teams still play traditional positions, and if an opposing player is a 4, the one guarding him is playing 4 on defense.

[gouki88]

Kyrie stated he was excited about getting getting on the court with a 2 guard like Hayward who can shoot and make plays. As incredible as Baynes has been, Hayward has to be tried at the 2 to see what we have with our top lineup.

Even if there's growing pains and time spent to getting getting GH's legs under him, this is the lineup that is going to be matching up with GS and Toronto.

Any time used for building that chemistry is well spent. Maybe you take him out realitivly early for Smart, Morris. or Baynes so that you could bring him back early in the second quarter to run point as the primary ball handler until you put Kyrie back in and they finish the game in the same backcourt.

Not sure I like Bench Hayward but I'd try out staggered Hayward.

This notion that Hayward is a 2 has to be dispelled. During his last year with the Jazz, a top defensive team, he played as a 3 and 4. Played the 4 mostly during playoffs.

I think you're getting too hung up on traditional positions, which neither we nor the '16-'17 playoff Jazz implemented. The Jazz mostly started Gobert/Diaw/Hayward/Ingles/Hill (when they were all healthy), but 5 of their top 6 guys in MPG over the playoffs were guards/wings.
That's very similar to what we will be doing this season, with Kyrie, GH, Al, JT, JB, TRoz, Marcus x2 and Baynes being our top 10 guys. There are only two bigs in that lot, and Al is by no means a banger down low.

Offensively, Hayward will be a ball-handling and playmaking wing, whereas I think JB will most likely handle the ball less than him, and work more off the ball. Defensively I think JB will guard 2's mostly, because of his athleticism. Ultimately, it doesn't really matter because, as Brad has said, we don't adhere to the PG/SG/SF/PF/C lineup, but more general classifications.

And to OP's point, I don't think it will matter for a couple of reasons. Chiefly, Hayward is a vastly underrated defender, and gives us a lot more versatility on that end than Baynes does, and on the other end we are almost immeasurably more dangerous with Hayward than with Baynes.

LOL we are talking about defense here. Other teams still play traditional positions, and if an opposing player is a 4, the one guarding him is playing 4 on defense.

The point is moot considering the amount of traditional 4’a in the league that are actually good players. You can count them on one hand, so I don’t get what you’re saying

[mmmmm]

Kyrie stated he was excited about getting getting on the court with a 2 guard like Hayward who can shoot and make plays. As incredible as Baynes has been, Hayward has to be tried at the 2 to see what we have with our top lineup.

Even if there's growing pains and time spent to getting getting GH's legs under him, this is the lineup that is going to be matching up with GS and Toronto.

Any time used for building that chemistry is well spent. Maybe you take him out realitivly early for Smart, Morris. or Baynes so that you could bring him back early in the second quarter to run point as the primary ball handler until you put Kyrie back in and they finish the game in the same backcourt.

Not sure I like Bench Hayward but I'd try out staggered Hayward.

This notion that Hayward is a 2 has to be dispelled. During his last year with the Jazz, a top defensive team, he played as a 3 and 4. Played the 4 mostly during playoffs.

That's simply not true.  I've looked at the 5-man units they used in Utah that year in detail.   Hayward spent the vast majority of his minutes that year at either the 2 or the 3.  Look at the 'Units' tab here:

http://nbawowy.com/qpgvo10d61

You can argue whether in some of those lineups they have him at "2" that he was really at "3", but in almost all of his most-used lineups, consuming the vast majority of his minutes that year, there were at least one bigger guy than him, not named Rudy Gobert, who was playing the 4.    Derrick Favors, Boris Diaw, Trey Lyles and Joe Ingles all tended to be the guy in that role. 

Even in their 'small' lineups, they were more likely to put Joe Johnson at the 4 than Hayward.

[jpotter33]

I think our rebounding is probably a bit worse without Baynes, but our added defensive versatility on the perimeter with Hayward should offset most of what we lose in rim protection without Baynes.

And that’s not even mentioning the major offensive boost we’ll get with Hayward instead of Baynes, especially regarding spacing for Kyrie to work.

[johnnygreen]

By having Hayward over Baynes in the starting lineup, the Celtics are putting more pressure on the opposing team. This could lead to the opposing team getting into foul trouble early and relying more on their bench players than usual. In addition, with so few good big men, I’m not sure Baynes is needed as a starter. His contributions will be equally needed off the bench, in that the team needs quality minutes from Baynes, and to provide versatility to the line-up when needed.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

None much.

The versatility on defense more than makes up for any size problems.

Plus, in the modern NBA, I'm not convinced that the Kyrie-Hayward-Tatum-Brown-Horford lineup is undersized. If anything, it is just as big and more athletic than most NBA starting lineups.