What annoys me right now about Doc Rivers. (not a fire Doc or blame Doc thread)

[BigBaby]

he complains about the calls too much instead of focusing on actually coaching. he sucks

[Roy Hobbs]

  Unrelated rant that I also don't want Doc fired for: his substitution patterns. That, almost by itself, is why we lost the Orlando game. He needs to stagger his subbing more and possibly have the players come out a few times for shorter breaks.

  Rondo played 37 minutes against Orlando, which is a reasonable amount. But if you consider that the 11 minutes he was out included both quarter breaks it's 25-30 minutes real time.

  So Doc starts pulling his starters and goes for a while with 0-2 starters on the floor. The team slowly loses momentum. This is especially true on the offensive end when Rondo's out. The team starts to struggle and Doc always tries to wring a couple of extra possessions out of the 2nd unit. So after the other team's on a run Doc puts back in players like Rondo and KG who have been sitting on a bench for about 15+ minutes. The team continues to struggle while they re-acclimate themselves to the game. The opponent's runs from right before the subs come out until a few minutes after them are hurting us.

I've been complaining about this aspect of Doc's coaching for three years now; the mass substitutions simply aren't effective.  It's unfair to ask Ray Allen and four bench players to hold a lead.  82games.com did a study a few years ago, and found that lineups that have two or more starters in them consistently get outscored.  That should be fairly obvious, of course, but unfortunately Doc handicaps us with lineups like this every game.  Some nights it will pay off when the bench is clicking, but often it will put the starters in a hole.

That said, it was mostly the starting lineup that couldn't close tonight's game.

[BASS_THUMPER]

the bench is playin better right now..when tony was on the floor with house it's a spark there i dont see with the starters..of course rondo is doin all he can..

[dlpin]

Today the bench played well, but I don't think the bench has been playing better overall. Against the clippers and the hawks, it was incredible to see how every single starter ended up with a positive +/- and every single reserve ended with a negative +/-.

But I don't think it's all on the bench itself either. When you throw in 3 or 4 players at a time, you completely destroy the flow of the game for the team. Tonight was a great example of why it is better to have players come in more sporadically: tony allen got in with the first unit and played really well. Had he come in with a complete set of likewise cold players I don't know he would have done that well.

[jdpapa3]

Today the bench played well, but I don't think the bench has been playing better overall. Against the clippers and the hawks, it was incredible to see how every single starter ended up with a positive +/- and every single reserve ended with a negative +/-.

But I don't think it's all on the bench itself either. When you throw in 3 or 4 players at a time, you completely destroy the flow of the game for the team. Tonight was a great example of why it is better to have players come in more sporadically: tony allen got in with the first unit and played really well. Had he come in with a complete set of likewise cold players I don't know he would have done that well.

Great post. It's funny how sometimes the fans call for something for so long and then the coach is forced into it(Pierce foul trouble)and it works perfectly. They are bench players because they are flawed and to put them all in together does not do the best job of hiding those flaws. But when you can put someone like TA in there with Ray, Rondo, and KG, he is going to look a heck of a lot better.

I couldn't believe House was the first guard off of the bench in the second half. It was mind boggling really. Sub TA with 4 mins left in the 3rd for Ray.

[Bahku]

I'll preface this by saying that I think Doc is a great coach, I really do, and at times his understanding of the game and anticipation of the opponent's game-plan is amazing. But I have to say also that there are times when his rotations completely baffle me, to the point of not being able to find any sense in them whatsoever.

I can't remember exactly, but one of the last few games where Pierce had been the most effective player in the game, and when in the 4th quarter the lead slipped away steadily, he still did not put Paul into the quarter until there were only 3 minutes left, and the game was beyond reach.

That's just one example, and I'm over-simplifying a bit, but he has these periods when he acts like he's got some direct line to the gods, and they're feeding him some kind of information that the rest of us can't possibly understand, and he's basing his rotation on it. Only problem is the gods are messing with him and getting a kick out of it, cuz it just ends up being one of those "Huh?!?" things, with another game in the loss column, and another inexplicable substitution decision.



What truly amazes me is that NO ONE that interviews him after the game has the cajones to ask him what the heck he was doing, and why in the name of heaven he would keep the hottest guy of the night out of the game during the most crucial period!

There, I've vented about Doc ... I can sleep now.

[Spilling Green Dye]

Since when has Doc been good with substitution patterns? 

But I agree that the 4th quarter of yesterday's game was agonizing to watch.  Their offense, not defense, completely reverted to Pierce-iso and take the ball out of Rondo's hands.  Rondo had 11 assists by the end of hte 3rd quarter... he should have been involved more in the 4th.  Not one player drove to the hoop.

Asides from the struggle to close a game out, the most glaring problem currently is that our bench is flat out awful.  If it weren't for Eddie House hitting some nice 3's, the lead would have been blown quicker.  Glen Davis fell down on one play, couldn't score on the offensive end, and got disgustingly outplayed.  He looked useless out there, and it wasn't just him.  Sheed didn't bang down low, and Scalabrine won't do anything against LA. 

I think it's time that Doc, Pierce, and other stop trying to take over the offense.  Put it in Rondo's hands and tell him to attack.  (note, that travel call on Rondo was complete BS.)

[Drucci]

At least, Doc's assistants realize that offense is the problem in the 4th quarter. Here is Kevin Eastman's latest tweet : "There is a direct correlation between ball reversals and defensive breakdowns; that's why ball movement is so important to good offense!"

If only Doc could realize that...

[scoop]

  Unrelated rant that I also don't want Doc fired for: his substitution patterns. That, almost by itself, is why we lost the Orlando game. He needs to stagger his subbing more and possibly have the players come out a few times for shorter breaks.

  Rondo played 37 minutes against Orlando, which is a reasonable amount. But if you consider that the 11 minutes he was out included both quarter breaks it's 25-30 minutes real time.

  So Doc starts pulling his starters and goes for a while with 0-2 starters on the floor. The team slowly loses momentum. This is especially true on the offensive end when Rondo's out. The team starts to struggle and Doc always tries to wring a couple of extra possessions out of the 2nd unit. So after the other team's on a run Doc puts back in players like Rondo and KG who have been sitting on a bench for about 15+ minutes. The team continues to struggle while they re-acclimate themselves to the game. The opponent's runs from right before the subs come out until a few minutes after them are hurting us.

Generally, the offense works better with Rondo on the bench, unless the other team just gives away full control of the tempo.

Our offense looks absolutley horrible when Rondo is out...that's why he's been playing 40+ minutes in 8 of the last 12 games. Doc has no other point guard on the bench to go to.

The Celtics score less points per possession when Rondo is on the floor compared to when he's off. It's not a starters thing, because they score a lot more when Pierce/Ray Allen are on the court relatively to when they're out.

In the half-court set, Rondo still has a lot to grow, especially when facing good defensive teams.

[scoop]

At least, Doc's assistants realize that offense is the problem in the 4th quarter. Here is Kevin Eastman's latest tweet : "There is a direct correlation between ball reversals and defensive breakdowns; that's why ball movement is so important to good offense!"

If only Doc could realize that...

Do you honestly think Doc doesn't realize that? I don't know what to say.

The Celtics don't have the best offense in the league due to their poor rebounding numbers and atrocious turnover rate. It has nothing to do with lack of ball movement. Extremely well-coached offense.

[scoop]

Since when has Doc been good with substitution patterns? 

But I agree that the 4th quarter of yesterday's game was agonizing to watch.  Their offense, not defense, completely reverted to Pierce-iso and take the ball out of Rondo's hands.  Rondo had 11 assists by the end of hte 3rd quarter... he should have been involved more in the 4th.  Not one player drove to the hoop.

Asides from the struggle to close a game out, the most glaring problem currently is that our bench is flat out awful.  If it weren't for Eddie House hitting some nice 3's, the lead would have been blown quicker.  Glen Davis fell down on one play, couldn't score on the offensive end, and got disgustingly outplayed.  He looked useless out there, and it wasn't just him.  Sheed didn't bang down low, and Scalabrine won't do anything against LA. 

I think it's time that Doc, Pierce, and other stop trying to take over the offense.  Put it in Rondo's hands and tell him to attack.  (note, that travel call on Rondo was complete BS.)

Nice, but this entire paragraph is a fantasy. The first play where Pierce had the ball on his hands in the 4th was the one where he fouled Artest with the off-arm. That was basically the Celtics last full clock offensive possession. Before that, Rondo was running the offense like during the rest of the game - he just sucked at it. Please, re-watch the final 10 minutes of the game if you have any doubt about this.

[BballTim]

  Unrelated rant that I also don't want Doc fired for: his substitution patterns. That, almost by itself, is why we lost the Orlando game. He needs to stagger his subbing more and possibly have the players come out a few times for shorter breaks.

  Rondo played 37 minutes against Orlando, which is a reasonable amount. But if you consider that the 11 minutes he was out included both quarter breaks it's 25-30 minutes real time.

  So Doc starts pulling his starters and goes for a while with 0-2 starters on the floor. The team slowly loses momentum. This is especially true on the offensive end when Rondo's out. The team starts to struggle and Doc always tries to wring a couple of extra possessions out of the 2nd unit. So after the other team's on a run Doc puts back in players like Rondo and KG who have been sitting on a bench for about 15+ minutes. The team continues to struggle while they re-acclimate themselves to the game. The opponent's runs from right before the subs come out until a few minutes after them are hurting us.

Generally, the offense works better with Rondo on the bench, unless the other team just gives away full control of the tempo.

Our offense looks absolutley horrible when Rondo is out...that's why he's been playing 40+ minutes in 8 of the last 12 games. Doc has no other point guard on the bench to go to.

The Celtics score less points per possession when Rondo is on the floor compared to when he's off. It's not a starters thing, because they score a lot more when Pierce/Ray Allen are on the court relatively to when they're out.

In the half-court set, Rondo still has a lot to grow, especially when facing good defensive teams.

  First of all, I didn't say there was an immediate dropoff on the offensive end when he left the game, I said the offense gets progressively worse over time. Secondly, those points per possession can fluctuate from year to year or during a season based on a few bad sets. If you look at the net points Paul is slightly ahead of Rondo but I think a few weeks ago Rondo was ahead bit a decent amount. Also, last year the team played better offensively with Rondo on the court than with Pierce on the court. Does that mean that Paul had a lot to grow, especially when facing good defensive teams?

[angryguy77]

Did TA leave the game? Was he taken by terrorists or rogue malitia? The guy was playing great ball and producing at both ends. Ray was not playing well except decent d on Kobe. TA was doing it at both ends and we barely see him after the first half. That alone is making me question Doc's ability to be honest. I know he helped win a championship, but it's things like this that make me wonder.

[BballTim]

Since when has Doc been good with substitution patterns? 

But I agree that the 4th quarter of yesterday's game was agonizing to watch.  Their offense, not defense, completely reverted to Pierce-iso and take the ball out of Rondo's hands.  Rondo had 11 assists by the end of hte 3rd quarter... he should have been involved more in the 4th.  Not one player drove to the hoop.

Asides from the struggle to close a game out, the most glaring problem currently is that our bench is flat out awful.  If it weren't for Eddie House hitting some nice 3's, the lead would have been blown quicker.  Glen Davis fell down on one play, couldn't score on the offensive end, and got disgustingly outplayed.  He looked useless out there, and it wasn't just him.  Sheed didn't bang down low, and Scalabrine won't do anything against LA. 

I think it's time that Doc, Pierce, and other stop trying to take over the offense.  Put it in Rondo's hands and tell him to attack.  (note, that travel call on Rondo was complete BS.)

Nice, but this entire paragraph is a fantasy. The first play where Pierce had the ball on his hands in the 4th was the one where he fouled Artest with the off-arm. That was basically the Celtics last full clock offensive possession. Before that, Rondo was running the offense like during the rest of the game - he just sucked at it. Please, re-watch the final 10 minutes of the game if you have any doubt about this.

  People see what they're going to see. You don't seem to think that the Celts run a play where the pg dribbles the ball while Ray tries to run off a few screens and get open, although other people seem to be familiar with it.

[BballTim]

Since when has Doc been good with substitution patterns? 

But I agree that the 4th quarter of yesterday's game was agonizing to watch.  Their offense, not defense, completely reverted to Pierce-iso and take the ball out of Rondo's hands.  Rondo had 11 assists by the end of hte 3rd quarter... he should have been involved more in the 4th.  Not one player drove to the hoop.

Asides from the struggle to close a game out, the most glaring problem currently is that our bench is flat out awful.  If it weren't for Eddie House hitting some nice 3's, the lead would have been blown quicker.  Glen Davis fell down on one play, couldn't score on the offensive end, and got disgustingly outplayed.  He looked useless out there, and it wasn't just him.  Sheed didn't bang down low, and Scalabrine won't do anything against LA. 

I think it's time that Doc, Pierce, and other stop trying to take over the offense.  Put it in Rondo's hands and tell him to attack.  (note, that travel call on Rondo was complete BS.)

Nice, but this entire paragraph is a fantasy. The first play where Pierce had the ball on his hands in the 4th was the one where he fouled Artest with the off-arm. That was basically the Celtics last full clock offensive possession. Before that, Rondo was running the offense like during the rest of the game - he just sucked at it. Please, re-watch the final 10 minutes of the game if you have any doubt about this.

  I didn't tape the game but according to espn's game log Paul had an assist with about 4 minutes left. Is that an error on their part?