How can Danny possibly keep James Young in this roster?

[LooseCannon]

I think that, in general, posters in this thread are over-emphasizing the value of Young's relative youth.

Well, I think you're downplaying the fact that teenagers almost never play very well in the NBA, Young was drafted as a bench player from a school that doesn't help players actually improve any at basketball, just get them drafted, and he's still developing physically and mentally.

Wait a year or two with Young.

I know people are all excited about PJ3 and Evan Turner for some reason, but there's really no urgency to cut James Young from this roster.  Especially since he's one of the few assets on the roster with any significant potential to improve from what he is right now.

Future stars who were in the NBA as teenagers tend to get way more minutes than Young did, so I am willing to peg him as having less star potential than Rozier or Hunter.

I agree there is no urgency to cut him, but if you are looking to dump a player for picks instead of outright waiving someone, I think Young should be on the table and Ainge shouldn't be afraid of taking back assets worth less than a mid-first-round pick.

[Smitty77]

I think that, in general, posters in this thread are over-emphasizing the value of Young's relative youth.

Well, I think you're downplaying the fact that teenagers almost never play very well in the NBA, Young was drafted as a bench player from a school that doesn't help players actually improve any at basketball, just get them drafted, and he's still developing physically and mentally.

Wait a year or two with Young.

I know people are all excited about PJ3 and Evan Turner for some reason, but there's really no urgency to cut James Young from this roster.  Especially since he's one of the few assets on the roster with any significant potential to improve from what he is right now.

I don't know how to go back and find this (help me out here Roy if you would please), but I called Amir's potential when I watched him on many occasions when he played for the Fayetteville Patriots of the NBADL with my son!!!

Hire me Danny!!!:-)))

Smitty77

[Alleyoopster]

From a coaches standpoint he's almost the perfect player to have for the 15th roster spot. 

The talent level on this team is pretty even.  You have some players who are a little better than others, but not by much.  IT might be the exception.  Having such parity is going to be problematic for Stevens this season.  How is he going to decide who plays and who doesn't?  Almost every player on this team is either starter capable or close to it.  (except for the rookies)

If the C's keep Young Stevens doesn't have to worry about whether he plays or not.  He has options; sit him on the bench, or just put him in when the game appear hopeless.  (Like when they are in desperate need for a 3 point shooter because everyone else is flat.)  Or, ship him to Maine and help the Red Claws win a D-League Championship.  He'd also make the perfect practice player because Stevens can play him all the time without fears of wearing him out. 

If he turns into the shooter he's advertised to be and the Celtics play a more wide open game.  He might thrive.  (He's doing it in Maine.)  So far, playing with the 3rd team isn't working for him.  I know he played with the first team last year and didn't help.  This year..things might be different? 

Cutting him seems like a good idea, but as far as salary cap structure it makes absolutely no sense.  The best bet is to wait for trade options to open up and see if he can be packaged.  Even if his playing value is low at this time it could get better.  And, his trade value might be perfect for completing a trade somewhere down the road.

So, think about it.  Let's just say Young was as good as any of the rookies or veterans.  Does it help the coach win games....probably not.  If anything it might make for better team chemistry to keep him because he wouldn't be successfully competing for playing time with other teammates. 

FWIW: The obsession this board has over Young is bewildering.   

[crimson_stallion]

I don't buy it, though, and not just because Young is young (come on, people must have something better to say by now). Young is an excellent shooter and he can get that shot off in the NBA off the catch and off the dribble. He was a good offensive player in the D-league; most players who share that distinction are freelancers, but he stuck hard to the role he was supposed to play. It seems like conventional wisdom around here that last year was a lost year for him and I don't think that's true at all.

Problem is though, is that really true?

Over the past couple of years we've seen James Young in College, in the D-League, in the Summer League, in the Pre-season (one game only so far though) and in the actual NBA.

Out of ALL those avenues so far, the only place where he shot an 'above average' percentage from three was in the D-League.

In 40 College games he shot 82/235 (34.9%)
In 3 Summer League games @ Salt Lake City) he shot 2/13 (15.4%)
In 2 Summer League @ Vegas he shot 3/9 (33.3%)
In 31 NBA games he shot 17/66 (25.8%)
In 17 D-League games he shot 68/154 (44.2%)

If you take out the D-League games then in a total of 76 games (between college, summer league and the NBA) he has shot a combined 104/323 - a measly 32%.

Even if you include the highly inflated D-League percentages (which seem entirely unsustainable, based on what he's shot elsewhere) then it's a combined 172/477 (36%) which is still only barely above average for an NBA Shooting Guard.

Three point shooting seems to be this kid's one selling point, and yet even in that area I fail to see what all the fuss is about.

That's a heck of a cherry to pick, my friend! He's 20, and you are probing his percentages when you throw out the vast majority of his first and only year of pro basketball.

How can you say I am cherry picking when I listed his overall shooting numbers twice:

1) Without D-League numbers included
2) With D-League numbers included

There is no possible way you can claim I am Cherry-Picking.

His numbers ranged from mediocre (in the first case) to slightly above average (in the second case) - neither jumps out as being especially impressive. 

Also, I chose to show both perspectives because IMHO the D-League is a joke, and those stats meaningless.   

Phil Pressy played one D-League game where he put up 34 points, 9 assists and 7 rebounds.  Fab Melo had one where he put up a triple double with 15 points, 16 rebound and 14 blocks.  Neither guy came CLOSE to putting up numbers like that in any Summer League or NBA game.  In fact I dont think either guy even had a game like that in college!!

If you check player averages in general, Summer League stats tend to translate much more accurately to the NBA then D-League stats do.  The latter are just outrageous.

[PhoSita]

I think that, in general, posters in this thread are over-emphasizing the value of Young's relative youth.

Well, I think you're downplaying the fact that teenagers almost never play very well in the NBA, Young was drafted as a bench player from a school that doesn't help players actually improve any at basketball, just get them drafted, and he's still developing physically and mentally.

Wait a year or two with Young.

I know people are all excited about PJ3 and Evan Turner for some reason, but there's really no urgency to cut James Young from this roster.  Especially since he's one of the few assets on the roster with any significant potential to improve from what he is right now.

Future stars who were in the NBA as teenagers tend to get way more minutes than Young did, so I am willing to peg him as having less star potential than Rozier or Hunter.

I agree there is no urgency to cut him, but if you are looking to dump a player for picks instead of outright waiving someone, I think Young should be on the table and Ainge shouldn't be afraid of taking back assets worth less than a mid-first-round pick.

Why does he have less star potential than Rozier or Hunter?  I agree he's very unlikely to turn into a star, but I think Rozier and Hunter are even less likely.  Guys who stay in college until they're 21 and get picked in the mid to late 1st don't tend to turn into stars, either.

[Chris22]

The guy just doesn't seem to have the mindset to succeed in the NBA. Look how every one of our three rookies showed us already that they belong. At the same time, James Young looks lost on the court. Every single play, he seems lost.
How could we possible keep such a fragile prospect and release a guy that once scored 32 points in an actual NBA game (Perry Jones)?

Agreed.

[Greyman]

As a player or trade asset he will have more value if he improves. I was tempted to say 'when he improves' but, while i think it will happen to some extent, I am not sure it will or by how much. There should be no hurry to ditch him now, there will be games where he can be brought along, injuries and that desire to see if he can put something together.

[rollie mass]

watching young with red claws his defence didn't seem to improve
,he also seemed predictable getting to hoop and uncomfortable with right hand more than a couple dribbles
lacked any form of creativity getting to hoop or explosive finish----
last year i gave up on him,but he has improved his effort and physical
so this year i have not given up

[Moranis]

He's 20 years old. Everyone knew it would take time. Giving up on him this early into his career and have him develop into something would both be painful and riddle the forum with threads about the mistake.

I, for one, thought that drafting him was a bad idea.

Not understanding the concept of a sunk cost and hanging to him longer than necessarily will riddle the forum with threads about the mistake.  He's like a smaller Perry Jones;  he has the talent to be a very good player, but he seems to lack the intelligence and desire to come close to reaching his potential.

The difference is that he's still younger than all three of the rookies we drafted this year that people are hyped about.

Sunk cost fallacy is a valid point, but you don't draft a guy you should reasonably know will be a multiyear project and then cut him after one season because he's not ready to crack the rotation on a team that's deep in proven role players.


I agree with you, by the way, on cutting Fab Melo, for the same reason -- though I think that decision made more sense because Fab was already pretty old for a rookie when they drafted him.  But why draft a raw project center who is on the older side for a prospect in the first place?  That's what made the Fab Melo pick so bad from the beginning.

Yeah but if you end up with 15 better players, most of which are still on rookie contracts, then it makes some sense to cut the guy. 

[saltlover]

He's 20 years old. Everyone knew it would take time. Giving up on him this early into his career and have him develop into something would both be painful and riddle the forum with threads about the mistake.

I, for one, thought that drafting him was a bad idea.

Not understanding the concept of a sunk cost and hanging to him longer than necessarily will riddle the forum with threads about the mistake.  He's like a smaller Perry Jones;  he has the talent to be a very good player, but he seems to lack the intelligence and desire to come close to reaching his potential.

The difference is that he's still younger than all three of the rookies we drafted this year that people are hyped about.

Sunk cost fallacy is a valid point, but you don't draft a guy you should reasonably know will be a multiyear project and then cut him after one season because he's not ready to crack the rotation on a team that's deep in proven role players.


I agree with you, by the way, on cutting Fab Melo, for the same reason -- though I think that decision made more sense because Fab was already pretty old for a rookie when they drafted him.  But why draft a raw project center who is on the older side for a prospect in the first place?  That's what made the Fab Melo pick so bad from the beginning.

Yeah but if you end up with 15 better players, most of which are still on rookie contracts, then it makes some sense to cut the guy.

Exactly.  The Celtics currently have 8 players with guaranteed contracts next year, 2 guys with non-guaranteed years (Johnson and Jerebko), 3 restricted free agents (including PJ3), up to 4 1st-round picks (although likely only 3) and 5 (I think - might've lost count) 2nd round picks.  And cap room for a max player.  If Young isn't one of the best 15 this year, it's tough to see how he can possibly fit on that roster next year.  There's simply no room.  If PJ3 beats out Young, then that's life.  And if he doesn't, that's fine too.  I get that Young was drafted a project, but after a year in the NBA he's no closer to becoming a viable NBA player, and some might argue he's further away.  There should be a team willing to trade for him if he's worth taking a chance on, but maybe there isn't.  Right now Young looks like that guy who figures it out on his third team and becomes a useful rotation player in his mid-20s.  The Celtics don't need to cut a rotation player who's currently in his mid-20s to hold onto a guy who might become that in 5 years.

[sofutomygaha]

I don't buy it, though, and not just because Young is young (come on, people must have something better to say by now). Young is an excellent shooter and he can get that shot off in the NBA off the catch and off the dribble. He was a good offensive player in the D-league; most players who share that distinction are freelancers, but he stuck hard to the role he was supposed to play. It seems like conventional wisdom around here that last year was a lost year for him and I don't think that's true at all.

Problem is though, is that really true?

Over the past couple of years we've seen James Young in College, in the D-League, in the Summer League, in the Pre-season (one game only so far though) and in the actual NBA.

Out of ALL those avenues so far, the only place where he shot an 'above average' percentage from three was in the D-League.

In 40 College games he shot 82/235 (34.9%)
In 3 Summer League games @ Salt Lake City) he shot 2/13 (15.4%)
In 2 Summer League @ Vegas he shot 3/9 (33.3%)
In 31 NBA games he shot 17/66 (25.8%)
In 17 D-League games he shot 68/154 (44.2%)

If you take out the D-League games then in a total of 76 games (between college, summer league and the NBA) he has shot a combined 104/323 - a measly 32%.

Even if you include the highly inflated D-League percentages (which seem entirely unsustainable, based on what he's shot elsewhere) then it's a combined 172/477 (36%) which is still only barely above average for an NBA Shooting Guard.

Three point shooting seems to be this kid's one selling point, and yet even in that area I fail to see what all the fuss is about.

That's a heck of a cherry to pick, my friend! He's 20, and you are probing his percentages when you throw out the vast majority of his first and only year of pro basketball.

How can you say I am cherry picking when I listed his overall shooting numbers twice:

1) Without D-League numbers included
2) With D-League numbers included

There is no possible way you can claim I am Cherry-Picking.

His numbers ranged from mediocre (in the first case) to slightly above average (in the second case) - neither jumps out as being especially impressive. 

Also, I chose to show both perspectives because IMHO the D-League is a joke, and those stats meaningless.   

Phil Pressy played one D-League game where he put up 34 points, 9 assists and 7 rebounds.  Fab Melo had one where he put up a triple double with 15 points, 16 rebound and 14 blocks.  Neither guy came CLOSE to putting up numbers like that in any Summer League or NBA game.  In fact I dont think either guy even had a game like that in college!!

If you check player averages in general, Summer League stats tend to translate much more accurately to the NBA then D-League stats do.  The latter are just outrageous.

You explicitly quoted us Young's shooting percentage as averaged between college, summer league, and NBA. It seemed like you were trying to make a point with that. If his % was even lower in high school or practice scrimmages, I'm not sure you wouldn't have factored that in as well for the sake of argument.

I'm more interested in the last thing that you said. Is there truth to this? Is summer league a better statistical predictor than D-league? That's very interesting if true-- it's probably obvious to say but I definitely thought it was the other way around. Elite [particularly ball-dominant] players certainly do tend to make the summer league leader boards-- does the correlation go further than that?

I could definitely be wrong about this, and I'd like to know better. I feel like all I really know about Summer league are a collection of dramatic anecdotes in both directions (Jeremy Lin = we should have known all along! Luke Harangody = come on, it's summer league!), a dose of confirmation bias with all eyes on the lottery prospects, and the sense that third-year players are completely pointless and wasting their time.

[sofutomygaha]

FWIW: The obsession this board has over Young is bewildering.   

We had the same obsession over every project pick, from Bradley, JJ, Skywalker, Fab, Harangody, and so on as far back as I can remember. It's what we do. I love obsessing about potential future Celtics.

[fairweatherfan]

FWIW: The obsession this board has over Young is bewildering.   

We had the same obsession over every project pick, from Bradley, JJ, Skywalker, Fab, Harangody, and so on as far back as I can remember. It's what we do. I love obsessing about potential future Celtics.

Oddly enough the one guy in that bunch who panned out was probably the most universally despised in his rookie year.  All the others had their share of irrational optimists but AB had almost 0 support until he actually started playing well.

I think the obsession with whether or not Young will get cut is silly, though, since it's such an unlikely proposition.

[sofutomygaha]

I know I keep panning the whole "Young is Young" thing, and I hear some of you saying that the D-league is meaningless, but look at the leaderboards for 3-point shooting and realize that every single player in Young's peer group is age 23+, and most of them are D-league lifer types age 25-30.

I hear all this disappointment that Young isn't dominating or showing signs of improvement, but as crimson_stallion just pointed out he's obviously improved a great deal as a shooter since college. There aren't any other players in the D-league who went from 35% in college the year before to 44% on a high volume.

[sofutomygaha]

FWIW: The obsession this board has over Young is bewildering.   

We had the same obsession over every project pick, from Bradley, JJ, Skywalker, Fab, Harangody, and so on as far back as I can remember. It's what we do. I love obsessing about potential future Celtics.

Oddly enough the one guy in that bunch who panned out was probably the most universally despised in his rookie year.  All the others had their share of irrational optimists but AB had almost 0 support until he actually started playing well.

I think the obsession with whether or not Young will get cut is silly, though, since it's such an unlikely proposition.

You're absolutely right. Bradley was short, couldn't pass, and was a bad shooter with one fluke year at Texas. We mostly though he was a total waste of a pick. Jordan Crawford was ours for the taking!