TNT’s Ultimate NBA Draft

[liam]

G: Magic Johnson, Damian Lillard
G: Michael Jordan, Ray Allen
F: Kawhi Leonard, Rick Barry, Paul Arizin
F: Chris Bosh
C: Bill Russell, Willis Reed

G: LeBron James, Steve Nash
G: Sam Jones, Pete Maravich
F: Larry Bird, James Worthy
F: Kevin Garnett, Dave DeBusschere
C: Nikola Jokic, Anthony Davis

I think I'd start Worthy at SG here.  Guarding assignments:

Lebron guards Jordan
KG guards Magic
Jokic guards Bosh
Worthy guards Russell
Bird guard Kawhi

Kawhi on Lebron
Bosh on KG
Russell on Jokic
Magic on Bird
Jordan on Worthy

It's depth where I think Team Bird gains some separation.  In terms of starting lineups, though, there's one weak link:  Russell on offense.  A big man who shot 44% for his career isn't going to be able to consistently score in this league.  It means it's effectively 4-on-5 out there, and I really can't see that not becoming an issue.

If you go straight positional analysis:

Jokic outscores Russell
KG is even with Bosh offensively
Bird is even with Kawhi
Worthy is outscored by Jordan
Lebron outscores Magic

So, is the mismatch offensively between Jordan and Worthy greater than the advantage of Jokic + Lebron over Magic + Russell?  I don't think it is.

Russell's FG% is low compared to modern times, but for many years of his career he was in the top 5 in the league in FG%.

'57 - 5th
'58 - 4th
'59 - 2nd
'60 - 4th
'61 - 22nd
'62 - 14th
'63 - 38th
'64 - 22nd
'65 - 24th
'67 - 25th

Russell's shooting and efficiency numbers were way over league average for the first half of his career and around average towards the end.

Bringing him into the modern game with modern coaching and trading, he would most likely be at or near the top of shooting and scoring and not a guy that you would could to be a nothing on offense.

I'm not sure that I buy it in this case.  Russell had an athletic advantage over just about every player he played.  He still only shot 43%, because he had lousy touch around the basket.  That's not something that is going to necessarily be better by modern training.

Russell could play defense in any era.  He's the best defensive player of all-time, and top three in rebounding.  Offensively, I don't think that's the case.  He averaged less than 12.8 points per 36 minutes for his career.  You're not going to convince me that he wouldn't be a negative in a league full of Hall of Famers.  I haven't looked at every name, but unless Rodman made the list, Russell is probably the worst offensive player here, by a long shot.

I think the lack of a coaching emphasis on efficiency in the 60s is certainly something that contributes to this. Russell at his best was capable of ~18ppg and ~5apg on 45% shooting, or thereabouts. Couple that with an ungodly ability to grab offensive rebounds and I don't doubt for a second that he could average 20ppg comfortably in the modern game with the said modern emphasis on efficiency.

Rudy Gobert does not have any sort of touch, yet is averaging 16ppg on 71% shooting from the field, and he has no passing at all compared to Russell.

Russell might not have the individual offence to compare to lots of the others on that list, but I don't think anyone on that list is a complementary a player to just about anyone as Russell is. His passing is wildly overlooked.

Keep in mind that was 18 / 5 (at his height) when he was playing 45 minutes per game, in the 1960s where there weren't sophisticated defenses, either.  In the modern era he wouldn't have the athleticism advantage that he did back then, either.

I don't know.  Scoring 15 points per 36 minutes (which was a career high) on 45.7% shooting (second to best in his career) against basic defenses with less athletic defenders suggest to me that he'd be anything other than Ben Wallace offensively today.  Defensively, he's like Wallace combined with Rodman, except a bit bigger and more athletic.  But offensively, he's probably a mix of those two, as well.

With Lillard, Jordan, Kawhi, Ray Allen, Bosh, and Barry are there any shots for Russell?

Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Bill Russell
Kawhi Leonard
Ray Allen
Damian Lillard
Chris Bosh (WC)
Rick Barry
Willis Reed
Paul Arizin

[BASS_THUMPER]

(Charania, Haynes)

Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Bill Russell
Kawhi Leonard
Ray Allen
Damian Lillard
Chris Bosh (WC)
Rick Barry
Willis Reed
Paul Arizin

—————————

More Championship


*sippin*

[Roy H.]

G: Magic Johnson, Damian Lillard
G: Michael Jordan, Ray Allen
F: Kawhi Leonard, Rick Barry, Paul Arizin
F: Chris Bosh
C: Bill Russell, Willis Reed

G: LeBron James, Steve Nash
G: Sam Jones, Pete Maravich
F: Larry Bird, James Worthy
F: Kevin Garnett, Dave DeBusschere
C: Nikola Jokic, Anthony Davis

I think I'd start Worthy at SG here.  Guarding assignments:

Lebron guards Jordan
KG guards Magic
Jokic guards Bosh
Worthy guards Russell
Bird guard Kawhi

Kawhi on Lebron
Bosh on KG
Russell on Jokic
Magic on Bird
Jordan on Worthy

It's depth where I think Team Bird gains some separation.  In terms of starting lineups, though, there's one weak link:  Russell on offense.  A big man who shot 44% for his career isn't going to be able to consistently score in this league.  It means it's effectively 4-on-5 out there, and I really can't see that not becoming an issue.

If you go straight positional analysis:

Jokic outscores Russell
KG is even with Bosh offensively
Bird is even with Kawhi
Worthy is outscored by Jordan
Lebron outscores Magic

So, is the mismatch offensively between Jordan and Worthy greater than the advantage of Jokic + Lebron over Magic + Russell?  I don't think it is.

Russell's FG% is low compared to modern times, but for many years of his career he was in the top 5 in the league in FG%.

'57 - 5th
'58 - 4th
'59 - 2nd
'60 - 4th
'61 - 22nd
'62 - 14th
'63 - 38th
'64 - 22nd
'65 - 24th
'67 - 25th

Russell's shooting and efficiency numbers were way over league average for the first half of his career and around average towards the end.

Bringing him into the modern game with modern coaching and trading, he would most likely be at or near the top of shooting and scoring and not a guy that you would could to be a nothing on offense.

I'm not sure that I buy it in this case.  Russell had an athletic advantage over just about every player he played.  He still only shot 43%, because he had lousy touch around the basket.  That's not something that is going to necessarily be better by modern training.

Russell could play defense in any era.  He's the best defensive player of all-time, and top three in rebounding.  Offensively, I don't think that's the case.  He averaged less than 12.8 points per 36 minutes for his career.  You're not going to convince me that he wouldn't be a negative in a league full of Hall of Famers.  I haven't looked at every name, but unless Rodman made the list, Russell is probably the worst offensive player here, by a long shot.

I think the lack of a coaching emphasis on efficiency in the 60s is certainly something that contributes to this. Russell at his best was capable of ~18ppg and ~5apg on 45% shooting, or thereabouts. Couple that with an ungodly ability to grab offensive rebounds and I don't doubt for a second that he could average 20ppg comfortably in the modern game with the said modern emphasis on efficiency.

Rudy Gobert does not have any sort of touch, yet is averaging 16ppg on 71% shooting from the field, and he has no passing at all compared to Russell.

Russell might not have the individual offence to compare to lots of the others on that list, but I don't think anyone on that list is a complementary a player to just about anyone as Russell is. His passing is wildly overlooked.

Keep in mind that was 18 / 5 (at his height) when he was playing 45 minutes per game, in the 1960s where there weren't sophisticated defenses, either.  In the modern era he wouldn't have the athleticism advantage that he did back then, either.

I don't know.  Scoring 15 points per 36 minutes (which was a career high) on 45.7% shooting (second to best in his career) against basic defenses with less athletic defenders suggest to me that he'd be anything other than Ben Wallace offensively today.  Defensively, he's like Wallace combined with Rodman, except a bit bigger and more athletic.  But offensively, he's probably a mix of those two, as well.

With Lillard, Jordan, Kawhi, Ray Allen, Bosh, and Barry are there any shots for Russell?

Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Bill Russell
Kawhi Leonard
Ray Allen
Damian Lillard
Chris Bosh (WC)
Rick Barry
Willis Reed
Paul Arizin

It's always a debate in these things (at least it is with me), but I don't like to see teams play 4-on-5 offensively.  Ben Wallace, Dennis Rodman...  They're great players, but not starters.  Russell is a starter, but offensively, he's the worst one in this draft.

When you're playing against a team with Jokic - KG - Bird - Lebron - Nash - Worthy - Davis, you can't be shorthanded on the offensive end.

[Moranis]

I know there is only 1 basketball, but I'd love to see West's team actually play.  I'm not sure anyone could really stop them from scoring and they have the greatest distributor ever to run things.

PG - Stockton, Sharman
SG - Kobe, Hondo
SF - Baylor, Melo
PF - Barkley, Thurmond
C - Chamberlain, Robinson

Kobe + Wilt would be ugly on the eyes.  You've got two selfish, inefficient (by modern standards) guys hogging the ball.  I wonder how effective a guy like Stockton even is here, having the ball taken out of his hands so much?

I have a hard time calling Wilt inefficient.  He led the league in FG% 9 times.  His career best TS% (in fact his 2 best seasons) are better than any season Jordan had in his career and that was from a time without the 3 point shot and where efficiency in general was bad.  Not even accounting for era, if Wilt is inefficient than Jordan absolutely is. 

And Wilt is the most physically gifted athlete the sport has ever seen.  He would absolutely dominate the modern era given his incredible physical advantages.  His size, speed, conditioning, and strength are unmatched in the history of the sport.  He was definitely selfish early in his career, which keeps him from being the best player ever, but his ability is basically unmatched.

[Roy H.]

I know there is only 1 basketball, but I'd love to see West's team actually play.  I'm not sure anyone could really stop them from scoring and they have the greatest distributor ever to run things.

PG - Stockton, Sharman
SG - Kobe, Hondo
SF - Baylor, Melo
PF - Barkley, Thurmond
C - Chamberlain, Robinson

Kobe + Wilt would be ugly on the eyes.  You've got two selfish, inefficient (by modern standards) guys hogging the ball.  I wonder how effective a guy like Stockton even is here, having the ball taken out of his hands so much?

I have a hard time calling Wilt inefficient.  He led the league in FG% 9 times.  His career best TS% (in fact his 2 best seasons) are better than any season Jordan had in his career and that was from a time without the 3 point shot and where efficiency in general was bad.  Not even accounting for era, if Wilt is inefficient than Jordan absolutely is. 

And Wilt is the most physically gifted athlete the sport has ever seen.  He would absolutely dominate the modern era given his incredible physical advantages.  His size, speed, conditioning, and strength are unmatched in the history of the sport.  He was definitely selfish early in his career, which keeps him from being the best player ever, but his ability is basically unmatched.

I should have said inefficient early in his career.  With the Warriors -- when he was putting up the ridiculous numbers -- he was around a 50% shooter.  Comparing his size and athleticism to that of his opponents, it's pretty inefficient and not overly impressive.

Later in his career, his efficiency jumped substantially as his shots went down and his numbers became less gaudy. 

[Moranis]

I know there is only 1 basketball, but I'd love to see West's team actually play.  I'm not sure anyone could really stop them from scoring and they have the greatest distributor ever to run things.

PG - Stockton, Sharman
SG - Kobe, Hondo
SF - Baylor, Melo
PF - Barkley, Thurmond
C - Chamberlain, Robinson

Kobe + Wilt would be ugly on the eyes.  You've got two selfish, inefficient (by modern standards) guys hogging the ball.  I wonder how effective a guy like Stockton even is here, having the ball taken out of his hands so much?

I have a hard time calling Wilt inefficient.  He led the league in FG% 9 times.  His career best TS% (in fact his 2 best seasons) are better than any season Jordan had in his career and that was from a time without the 3 point shot and where efficiency in general was bad.  Not even accounting for era, if Wilt is inefficient than Jordan absolutely is. 

And Wilt is the most physically gifted athlete the sport has ever seen.  He would absolutely dominate the modern era given his incredible physical advantages.  His size, speed, conditioning, and strength are unmatched in the history of the sport.  He was definitely selfish early in his career, which keeps him from being the best player ever, but his ability is basically unmatched.

I should have said inefficient early in his career.  With the Warriors -- when he was putting up the ridiculous numbers -- he was around a 50% shooter.  Comparing his size and athleticism to that of his opponents, it's pretty inefficient and not overly impressive.

Later in his career, his efficiency jumped substantially as his shots went down and his numbers became less gaudy.

well yeah, shooting less your efficiency goes up because you take better shots, but even with that he led the league in FG% 2 of his first 4 years.  It was a different sport, you can't realistically hold the era against players when you do this sort of thing.  Wilt was not inefficient. He was in fact the most efficient scorer in the sport throughout his career. 

[Jvalin]

I bet we can do a better job than these guys. Who's up for a fantasy draft?

[johnnygreen]

I unfortunately missed this, and would have loved to seen it live. If I understand this correctly, Michael Jordan was the 7th pick? Seriously? Arguably the greatest player of all time, not only got picked #3 in 1984, but was relegated to the 7th pick in 2022?

I do know Dominique picked himself #1 overall, which is hysterical and I can't blame him for doing so. The idea is too funny to pass up.

[boscel33]

Sue Bird rocked it!  Are you kidding me, were the others even trying?

[liam]

Sue Bird rocked it!  Are you kidding me, were the others even trying?

That's easily the best passing team and most fun to watch.

[Atzar]

Sue Bird rocked it!  Are you kidding me, were the others even trying?

Not the first time that I've felt a current/former WNBA player had a better grasp of intelligent basketball than most former NBA players - or perhaps they just take their job in front of the camera more seriously.  I vividly remember watching Candace Parker try to discuss play design with the rest of the TNT "B crew" during one broadcast.  Shaq couldn't hang and Wade just sat there with his thumb up his ass.  It was actually sad how ill-prepared they were to talk basketball on any sort of technical level.

I'm not necessarily trying to make a gender statement here, but I do wish these networks would do a better job of seeking out good analysts, rather than hot-take artists and NBA retirees who are just interested in a cozy low-effort way to stay in the spotlight and keep collecting paychecks.  I feel like they're searching for the next Barkley, but there's only one of him and the people trying to copy him are mostly doing a terrible job of it. 

[Ed Monix]

According to Sources

Russell
Bosh
Leonard
Jordan
Johnson

I don’t know how anyone is scoring on this starting five.

The level of swarming defence on the perimeter from Leonard & Jordan, then you’ve got Russell sweeping up anything in the lane.

On offence, as soon as Russell gets a rebound or block, with his vision and quick outlet pass to Jordan or Johnson, this team would be unstoppable on the fast break.

[Roy H.]

According to Sources

Russell
Bosh
Leonard
Jordan
Johnson

I don’t know how anyone is scoring on this starting five.

The level of swarming defence on the perimeter from Leonard & Jordan, then you’ve got Russell sweeping up anything in the lane.

On offence, as soon as Russell gets a rebound or block, with his vision and quick outlet pass to Jordan or Johnson, this team would be unstoppable on the fast break.

What if Russell is pulled out of the paint?  With two weak defenders (Bosh, Magic) I don’t think the defense is as dominant.

[liam]

According to Sources

Russell
Bosh
Leonard
Jordan
Johnson

I don’t know how anyone is scoring on this starting five.

The level of swarming defence on the perimeter from Leonard & Jordan, then you’ve got Russell sweeping up anything in the lane.

On offence, as soon as Russell gets a rebound or block, with his vision and quick outlet pass to Jordan or Johnson, this team would be unstoppable on the fast break.

What if Russell is pulled out of the paint?  With two weak defenders (Bosh, Magic) I don’t think the defense is as dominant.

This team is scoring on anyone:


G: LeBron James, Steve Nash
G: Sam Jones, Pete Maravich
F: Larry Bird, James Worthy
F: Kevin Garnett, Dave DeBusschere
C: Nikola Jokic, Anthony Davis

Four of the best passers in NBA history.

[boscel33]

According to Sources

Russell
Bosh
Leonard
Jordan
Johnson

I don’t know how anyone is scoring on this starting five.

The level of swarming defence on the perimeter from Leonard & Jordan, then you’ve got Russell sweeping up anything in the lane.

On offence, as soon as Russell gets a rebound or block, with his vision and quick outlet pass to Jordan or Johnson, this team would be unstoppable on the fast break.

Bird would drop 40, left handed!