Dream Trade Proposal: Ray + Young Chips For Carmelo /Hunter/Filler

[crownsy]

This isn't a dream. This is a nightmare. Carmelo is one of the most over-rated selfish players out there right now. Horrible idea.

Uh, no, he's really not. How is he selfish? He's one of the top offensive players in the entire league - and on top of that, he is an excellent rebounder for his position. He's not great defensively but I'm sorry, he's not any worse than Ray Allen was with Seattle or Milwaulkee. He's an excellent young player.

 he's blatantly worse than ray was with Seattle and millwakee, and he's no better now than he was when he came into the league.

I'm not a melo basher, i actualy like him as denver's SF, but he is what he is. he's a great offense SF who can rebound. Why, it seems we already have one of those on the roster, and he plays great defense! So i think we can safely pass on adding another one at the downgrade of our SG position. why would we trade a guy who was almost the finals MVP from the SG position a year before we have to to take a huge risk on:

A) one of two players deciding  he wants to play a new position or come of the bench and

B) shake up the chemistry of a championship team and weaken ourselves at a position of strength? (SG) 

Also, melo has proven himself something of a bad character guy off the court (yes, i know, he gives alot to charity. that doesn't excuse the brawl, DWI's, reported drug abuses, albeit weed, and his questionable off the court work ethic.)

so why would we do this trade again?

[soap07]

Also, melo has proven himself something of a bad character guy off the court (yes, i know, he gives alot to charity. that doesn't excuse the brawl, DWI's, reported drug abuses, albeit weed, and his questionable off the court work ethic.)


Please. Questionable off the court work ethic? Questioned by whom? You? And why did you put DWI's plural? It was one. Just as many as James Posey had. Again, reported drug abuses? Sorry, you can't just discount his off-the-court charity work and than bring up minor incidents.

"he's blatantly worse than ray was with Seattle and millwakee, and he's no better now than he was when he came into the league.

Well, we can agree to disagree here. I can't seem to find stats on 82games past last season for some reason. Maybe Roy can help out here, where can I find 82games stats from prior years?

I'm not a melo basher, i actualy like him as denver's SF, but he is what he is. he's a great offense SF who can rebound. Why, it seems we already have one of those on the roster, and he plays great defense! So i think we can safely pass on adding another one at the downgrade of our SG position. why would we trade a guy who was almost the finals MVP from the SG position a year before we have to to take a huge risk on:

I  cannot disagree here. My point wasn't that we should trade Ray Allen for Carmelo - my point was that Carmelo is an excellent young player who is neither one-dimensional nor selfish.

[crownsy]

Please. Questionable off the court work ethic? Questioned by whom? You? And why did you put DWI's plural? It was one. Just as many as James Posey had. Again, reported drug abuses? Sorry, you can't just discount his off-the-court charity work and than bring up minor incidents.

Just because posey did it doesn't magically make it ok for melo to do it. Your assumption here is i totally forgive posey for one of the most reckless acts i can think of and blame melo unfairly. its a bad assumption, and my personal views on poesy with regards to that matter don't coincide with it. I can appreciate  a players play on the court while questioning his character of the court. they are not mutually exclusive, nor do i give james posey any less grief in my mind then i do melo as you assume.

and "well, THIS GUY did it too!" is not a defense.

also, kobe bryant gives a ton to charity as well, and he's not someone i'd like to have dinner with. I'm happy they give to charity, and it reflects well on them, but it doesn't give you carte blanche to be a jerkoff and go out drunk driving.

his work ethic with regards to anything but his offense has been questioned by his coaches several times. we had this discussion when he was booked for DWI i believe, it should be in the annuals.


also, A DWI, a possible drug habit, and a short temper that lead to his suspension for a majority of the season for sucker punching someone are "minor incidents?" what would be a non-minor incident? if he had killed someone while he was drunk driving? let me know what the line is with you, to me, the DWI is firmly across it.

[moiso]

Carmelo is one of the top offensive talents in the league and his numbers would be even higher if he didn't play with AI.  But he still doesn't fit in with this Celts team.

[Finkelskyhook]

Carmelo is one of the top offensive talents in the league and his numbers would be even higher if he didn't play with AI.  But he still doesn't fit in with this Celts team.

OK.

We have a proposal to trade one of the most respected players in the NBA. A great team player who altered his game and drastically improved his defense to fit into a championship team.

We are proposing to trade him, and some of our future for the JR Rider of this era.  An immensely, selfish talent who can't stay out of trouble and whom has been tutored and been a teammate of the pre-eminent thug and coach killer of this era.  Along with a 7-footer who may have accomplished more by not being on an NBA roster than he has on one.   

We have this proposal while somehow keeping in mind that our GM has spent pretty much his whole executive career idiot (players like Anthony)-proofing the roster while bringing in the very type of player whom this proposal is wanting to trade away.  Not to mention that time and time again our vaunted coach has shown a complete inability to manage such a player like Anthony.

[soap07]

his work ethic with regards to anything but his offense has been questioned by his coaches several times. we had this discussion when he was booked for DWI i believe, it should be in the annuals.

That's odd - his game has improved tremendously since he has entered the league. He must be doing something right in the offseason.

His rookie year, his FG% was .426, last year, it was all the way up to .492. He was shooting .322 from long range entering the league, up to .354 last season. He averaged 6.1 rebounds a game his rookie year - increasing by over a rebound a game to 7.4 last season (one of the best rebounding forwards in the game). He was only dishing out 2.8 assists his rookie year up to 3.8 and 3.4 a game the last two seasons respectively.

All the evidence points to 1. Carmelo improving greatly since he's entering the league and 2. Working on parts of his game other than scoring. So you tell me, how is he not working hard? He also averaged a career high in steals last year (albeit, not by much).

[soap07]

also, A DWI, a possible drug habit, and a short temper that lead to his suspension for a majority of the season for sucker punching someone are "minor incidents?" what would be a non-minor incident? if he had killed someone while he was drunk driving? let me know what the line is with you, to me, the DWI is firmly across it.

Possible drug habit. Possible, neither of us know and it's unfair for us to cast a bad light on him for something we do not know.

I happened to find this...


Today, a list was released by The Giving Back Fund announcing the largest public donations by celebrities in 2006. Mr. Anthony was 8th on the list, giving around $4.2 million to various organizations (most notably, his Carmelo Anthony Youth Center in Baltimore). The most glaring thing about the list is that Carmelo isn't even as close to as rich as some of the other people on the list.

I would love to have this kind of guy on my team (not in this specific trade) - and over look a brawl where he threw one punch and let his emotions get the better of him. Sometimes that happens. Pierce has done it too. A short temper? Stop with this nonsense - it was one time...one punch. Garnett punched out Rickert in practice. Sometimes this kind of stuff happens in a physical game like this. I think the charity donations are a far better indication of his character.

also, kobe bryant gives a ton to charity as well, and he's not someone i'd like to have dinner with. I'm happy they give to charity, and it reflects well on them, but it doesn't give you carte blanche to be a jerkoff and go out drunk driving.

Carmelo was not put on trial for rape so there is a distinction. A huge one.

[cavman]

Our best 3-point threat, and affordable contracts on developing guys for....

a "star" you can't depend on to play defense, not take stupid shots or think "team" instead of "me", and a guy who basically blocks shots and has no offense aside from put backs.

Stinkin' nightmare trade, not a dream trade.

[Finkelskyhook]

Carmelo was not put on trial for rape so there is a distinction. A huge one.

Neither was Kobe.

The distinction is that, unlike Kobe,  Anthony can't stay out of trouble and can't get out of the first round of the playoffs with more talent than Kobe went to the Finals with.

The distinction between the two is that one is driven to win and plays both ends of the court.  The other is driven by stats and plays one end of the court.  

Danny doesn't drink so thankfully can't get messed enough to want this selfish thug anywhere near Boston.

[moiso]

One factor that enabled the C's to win the championship was that pretty much the entire roster was made of high character guys who put the team first and played with maximum effort.  Subtract Posey and add O'Bryant, Miles...Giddens has been in trouble in the past.  I wouldn't want to replace a classy guy like Ray Allen with Carmelo. The chemistry could possibly slip even without a move like this.

[soap07]

Neither was Kobe.

The distinction is that, unlike Kobe,  Anthony can't stay out of trouble and can't get out of the first round of the playoffs with more talent than Kobe went to the Finals with.

The distinction between the two is that one is driven to win and plays both ends of the court.  The other is driven by stats and plays one end of the court. 

Danny doesn't drink so thankfully can't get messed enough to want this selfish thug anywhere near Boston.
 
 
 

Let's go over how many ways what you're saying is ludicrous.

"Anthony can't stay out of trouble and can't get out of the first round of the playoffs with more talent than Kobe went to the Finals with."

Name one first round matchup that the Nuggets were favored in. Just one. In fact, how many of the team's that Denver lost to in the first round ended up going to the championship? On the flip side, how many players can say they've been the best player on a Western Conference playoff team every year since their rookie season?

"The distinction between the two is that one is driven to win and plays both ends of the court.  The other is driven by stats and plays one end of the court.  "

Show one iota of proof of this. Actually, nevermind, you are correct. When the opposing team grabs a rebound, Carmelo just hangs out on the offensive end forcing the Nuggets to play 4 on 5. That makes perfect sense.

[crownsy]

his work ethic with regards to anything but his offense has been questioned by his coaches several times. we had this discussion when he was booked for DWI i believe, it should be in the annuals.

That's odd - his game has improved tremendously since he has entered the league. He must be doing something right in the offseason.

His rookie year, his FG% was .426, last year, it was all the way up to .492. He was shooting .322 from long range entering the league, up to .354 last season. He averaged 6.1 rebounds a game his rookie year - increasing by over a rebound a game to 7.4 last season (one of the best rebounding forwards in the game). He was only dishing out 2.8 assists his rookie year up to 3.8 and 3.4 a game the last two seasons respectively.

All the evidence points to 1. Carmelo improving greatly since he's entering the league and 2. Working on parts of his game other than scoring. So you tell me, how is he not working hard? He also averaged a career high in steals last year (albeit, not by much).

the first line of the sentence you qoutd is "except for his offense" and you then   gave a whole bunch of offensive numbers? show me something about his defense, not his scoring and rebounding things i already said he was great at. you proved i was right when i said he was a hard worker at scoring and rebounding. congrats. his coaches were criticizing his utter lack of commitment to defense, not his offensive ablity. we all now he has that in abundance.

also, it doesnt impress me that you qouted a figure he donated to charity while blatantly ignoring my question about his DWI and the fact that your only defense of it for him so far is "but other people do it to" a horrid reason to defened someone for getting behind the wheel fo a car drunk.

Also, as someone pointed out, kobe has no place here. I gave him as an example of another player who donates to charity, not as a good guy comparison. I blatantly said he was a bad guy who donates to charity in my example, and you then tell me he's a bad guy. thanks for the heads up.

again, i ask you , what do you consider a non-minor incident. because so far its not:

1. getting behind the wheel of a car drunk and opening up the possibility of vehicular homicide, one of the most irrespnsable things you can do.

2. sucker punching a player because, rightly or wrongly, you were upset and gave into your anger issues, costing your team a 1/3rd of the season of your services.

3.  as you say, a "possible" drug habit. it is my experience that if your doing drugs enough to get caught by the police, you have a problem. but still, even if it was magically only this one time, this is a minor offense?

I ask again, what is a non-minor offense for carmelo in your eyes? or is everything forgiven up to harming someone else with a 3000 pound steel missile while drunk ok as long as he impresses you with his gifts to charity?

[Finkelskyhook]

Soap, they weren't favored because they had inferior talent.  They weren't favored because their top 3 offensive players have zero character and infinite selfishness between them.  Not to mention that none of the three make a pretense of caring defensively.  In spite of Anthony's immense talent, his team won't smell the playoffs without Camby there.  Camby covered for Mr Snitch, Mr Thug, and Mr Airhead on just about every defensive rotation. 

On the flip side, how many players can say they've been the best player on a Western Conference playoff team every year since their rookie season?

JR Rider was his team's best player, too.  For most of his career.  So what?  There's a reason that a team with Doug Moe on the bench or on the court has never come close to winning a championship.  The Thuggets may be "fun?"  to watch, but they'll never win a playoff series...let alone a championship when the team's best players don't pretend to defend.  With all of that offensive firepower, they're still not always going to outscore people.

Never, never, ever would I want Anthony anywhere near Boston.

[LarBrd33]

Yeah yeah yeah... bad character... bad defense... cornrows... bad reputation... whatever.

He's 24 years old and a franchise player.   This is a case of the Boston homers talking from a Boston homer standpoint.  A little over a year ago you guys would have bashed any trade involving Ray Allen coming to Boston... point out his age (32 at the time), creaky ankles (which could still give out at any time) and his one dimensional game (he can shoot).

For the record, I don't like the idea of breaking up the big three after a championship.   I would like to see us try to repeat.   But I also think that if Danny Ainge had the balls to pull the trigger on this deal (it's horribly lopsided in Boston's favor), I'd be on board within a few hours. Ray's 33 years old... averaged 17 points, 3 assists, 3 rebounds.  Love him and he was a key part to our title run, but I'm still not sure how much time he has left playing at a high level and I think it's widely agreed he's the least important of the "big three".  Some of the fellas on this board will argue (outside of this thread) that Rondo is more important than Ray.   

On the other hand,  Melo averaged 25.7 points, 3.4 assists, 7.4 rebounds, 1.3 steals on 49% shooting.  Improved to 35% from three point range.  Would anybody argue that Paul Pierce is a better scorer?   I kinda think that our opinion of Melo is skewed, because I guarantee nobody on this board has watched Melo play a full game more than maybe a handful of times.   You realize that up until the finals, the consensus from other fans outside of Boston was that Paul Pierce was a one dimensional scorer?  I wouldn't knock Melo.

Last year statistically (efficiency) he was the 13th best player in the NBA.   KG was #9, Pierce was #36.   Ray was #80.

In 2007 Melo was the #16 best player in the NBA statistically.   KG was #1, Ray was #23, Pierce was #29.

In 2006 Melo was the #25th best player in the NBA.   KG was #1, Pierce was #11, Ray was #24.

It seems to look like Melo is improving every year.   Compare his age to Ray and the fact he's one of the top 20 players in the game.... and it's hard to say no to that trade if we hadn't just won the title.  If we fail to repeat this year... I'd pull the trigger on that trade in a heartbeat. 

Edit:  I can't talk about his defense, because I honestly haven't watched him play enough (neither have you guys).  But Denver's defense was arguably the worst in the league.   Ray Allen was known as a terrible defender before coming to Boston.  Pierce was considered a weak defender until he dedicated himself this year.   I'm not dismissing defense, I'm just saying... you're talking about trading a 33 year old on the downside of his career for a 24 year old franchise player and acting like it's an outrageously dumb proposal.  Lets be real.  Let me put it like this.   If we weren't talking about the 2008 defending Champion Boston Celtics and instead we were all playing a game of "CelticsBlog Fantasy Draft Basketball" and the Bobcats tried to trade Ray Allen straight up to the Wizards for Carmelo Anthony.... wdleehi would veto that trade in a heartbeat...   

[soap07]

the first line of the sentence you qoutd is "except for his offense" and you then   gave a whole bunch of offensive numbers? show me something about his defense, not his scoring and rebounding things i already said he was great at. you proved i was right when i said he was a hard worker at scoring and rebounding. congrats. his coaches were criticizing his utter lack of commitment to defense, not his offensive ablity. we all now he has that in abundance.

This is ridiculous. First, you point out that his work ethic has been questioned.  I point out numerous categories  that he has improved in, showing his work ethic. Does work ethic only count if he improves defensively (which I might add, he had a career high in steals)?

The point is: He obviously has work ethic...he, even with his abundance of offensive talent, has even improved offensively since he's been in the league. No, he's not a great defensive player, but that doesn't speak to his commitment off the court which he clearly has.

JR Rider was his team's best player, too.  For most of his career.  So what? 

This is a pretty good comparison. Especially considering that in Rider's 9 year career, he made the playoffs 3 times and in Carmelo's 5 year career, he's been in the playoffs 5 times. Rider with his 17 PPG career average really is an appropriate comparison for Carmelo. Wow, stretch much?

They weren't favored because their top 3 offensive players have zero character and infinite selfishness between them. 

I ask you again: What are you talking about? Carmelo's abundant off the court charitable contributions more than speak to his commitment to caring for others.

In spite of Anthony's immense talent, his team won't smell the playoffs without Camby there.

Well, now that you say it like that - Should the Nuggets bother playing this season? Might as well close up shop and not suit up since you are all-knowing.