Jabari? UPDATE: Jabari!

[No Nickname]

We don’t win this game without Jabari.

True.  But his help defense was absolutely horrendous.

At least three times he literally either stood and watched or even moved away from helping when a teammate was beaten.

His defensive awareness (or maybe it’s just caring) was worse than an eighth grader.

That being said, the post move he made out of the timeout was like Beethoven composing music. Just breathtaking.

That's pretty harsh for a guy who just joined the team today and has never practiced with us, has had zero time to learn our defensive schemes. I would expect anyone to look lost on defense under those circumstances.

You don’t have to know a team’s defensive system to know when your teammate has been beaten and YOU’RE THE CLOSEST HELP DEFENDER and you literally move in the opposite direction of help.

For that type of play, basketball is basketball. It’s not a lack of understanding a system.

That being said, we knew who he was when we signed him. Defensive effort was not part of the package. He’s here for offense which he has in spades.

I’m hopeful Brad can maybe up his defensive fundamentals even 15% and we just look at him as instant offense.

Glad to have Jabari on board. As a basketball fundamentalist I’ll just have to grit my teeth on the defensive side. 

[Smartacus]

Coming to the party late on this but thrilled the Parker signing. Sorry if any of this has been said but how I see it.

Worst case scenario he's a good practice player who pushes Tatum and Brown to further heights. If he can't play you part ways.

Likely scenario he's a rotation player disguised as and and of bench vet min guy. He can fill in when Brown or Tatum needs to sit and stirs the pot when coming in off the bench. Hopefully finds Chemistry with Fournier.

Best case scenario DA found one of the most potent forgotten distressed assets in years. Regains the form from his last Milwaukee season. Re-signs for a decent contract and becomes the 3rd head of the big wing rotation.

Parker is a banger in the post and definetly has a different skillet than Tatum and Brown while remaining in the same building talent wise.

Sounds like he's been in no rush to force his way back from injury because he's been a savvy investor and grew his early career earnings.
www.sportscasting.com/jabari-parker-has-a-massive-net-worth-despite-his-disappointing-nba-career-so-far/%3famp

Feels like the first step on a great reclamation project.

[jambr380]

I don't know that Jabari will have that much of a role when we are mostly heavy, but he filled in admirably and it is great to have scoring off the bench.

I've said it before, but the Theis trade now makes more sense. I mean, I think Theis/Teague is definitely better than Kornet/Parker, but letting Kornet and Wagner duke it out for 3rd/4th string center and then signing an offensive oriented PF gives the team more options/versatility off the bench. We do need TL back soon, though, because a TL/TT center rotation is actually a good one.

Anyway, great debut by Parker - I hope he succeeds in his role and we bring him back next season!

[Somebody]

We don’t win this game without Jabari.

True.  But his help defense was absolutely horrendous.

At least three times he literally either stood and watched or even moved away from helping when a teammate was beaten.

His defensive awareness (or maybe it’s just caring) was worse than an eighth grader.

That being said, the post move he made out of the timeout was like Beethoven composing music. Just breathtaking.

That's pretty harsh for a guy who just joined the team today and has never practiced with us, has had zero time to learn our defensive schemes. I would expect anyone to look lost on defense under those circumstances.

You don’t have to know a team’s defensive system to know when your teammate has been beaten and YOU’RE THE CLOSEST HELP DEFENDER and you literally move in the opposite direction of help.

For that type of play, basketball is basketball. It’s not a lack of understanding a system.

That being said, we knew who he was when we signed him. Defensive effort was not part of the package. He’s here for offense which he has in spades.

I’m hopeful Brad can maybe up his defensive fundamentals even 15% and we just look at him as instant offense.

Glad to have Jabari on board. As a basketball fundamentalist I’ll just have to grit my teeth on the defensive side.

Yeah his defence is atrocious. But hey his offence makes him a passable bench player who provides us with a different option in the forward positions, which is great for us.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

People used to say Evan turner’s defense was atrocious and he wasn’t an nba player anymore. Brad stevens got him an 8 figure contract.

If Jabari can stay healthy, he is a very productive player. I think people are overemphasizing his defensive struggles, especially last night. He wasn’t that bad. He was at least as passable a help side defender as ojeleye. He also puts a lot of pressure on defenses if he plays the 5. That’s something we haven’t really had.

[radiohead]

I don't know that Jabari will have that much of a role when we are mostly heavy, but he filled in admirably and it is great to have scoring off the bench.

I've said it before, but the Theis trade now makes more sense. I mean, I think Theis/Teague is definitely better than Kornet/Parker, but letting Kornet and Wagner duke it out for 3rd/4th string center and then signing an offensive oriented PF gives the team more options/versatility off the bench. We do need TL back soon, though, because a TL/TT center rotation is actually a good one.

Anyway, great debut by Parker - I hope he succeeds in his role and we bring him back next season!

He is actually signed til next season. The Cs gave him a two year contract. And Brad said in one of his interviews that they’ll be patient with Jabari and that the move to get him goes beyond this season. I’m excited to see how Brad and his staff would try to improve Jabari’s game.

[Vermont Green]

I thought this thread would be blowing up this morning after what Parker showed last night.  Hasn't really played in over a year, probably is not in full game shape (don't see how he could be), jet lagged, and has not practiced with this team to learn any of the O or D schemes.  And he gives us 11 pts in 16 real game (vs. garbage time) min, +6 in those important minutes?  I was stunned at how well he did under these circumstances.  How can people not be excited about that performance?  Think how long it took Kemba get his game back.  Parker just shows up, laces up, and does this?

Now granted, he did have some poor rotations and close outs on defense.  Overall, I would not use words like "atrocious" or "terrible" to describe his defense though.  He has not played in a year and has never played with this group of players.  I am going to cut him some slack on that and expect that things will improve to some degree.  But even as he was last night, he was a serviceable, impactful player.

There has been a lot of talk as to whether Grant or Ojeleye should be getting minutes or Parker.  Is Parker going to "take" minutes from them.  I just want to restate some obvious numbers:

Career Stats
Parker     15 pts / 6 rebs / 2 Asst / 49% FG / 32% 3pt
Gordon  14 pts / 6 rebs / 3 Asst / 45% FG / 32% 3pt
Ojeleye    3 pts / 2 rebs / 0.5 Asst / 39% FG / 35% 3pt
GWill       4 pts / 3 rebs / 1 Asst / 42% FG / 31% 3pt

In the game last night, Olejeye had 2 pts/2 rebs in 21 min, GWill 4 pts/2 rebs in 24 min, pretty much in line with their career numbers.    Parker in 16 min had 11 pts and 4 rebs, all offensive, which to me, mean more than a defensive rebound.  These are not outliers.  They are exactly consistent with career numbers and recent typical production for these players.  These numbers represent what these players are.

I don't get it.  Parker is way closer to Aaron Gordon or Thad Young than he is to Grant Williams.  Parker was playing really well for ATL last season, a starter for most of it, then hurt his shoulder.  Yes, another injury but not his knee.  Then the COVID league shutdown hit, then a trade to SAC, then he got COVID, more nagging injuries, yes, the list goes on and on.  But it was just last season that he played very well as a starter for ATL for almost a half season.  It seems like it was 3 years ago but it was one year ago.

Ojeleye and GWill are deep bench players that average 4 pts but can at times give you 10 or 12 pts if they get hot.  Parker is a fringe starter who in his career averages 15 pts but can get hot and give you 25.  I just think back on how much difference Jae Crowder and Andre Iguodala made to Miami last season.  I remain optimistic that Fournier and Parker can be that for us this season.  And nothing I saw last season made me any less optimistic.

[SHAQATTACK]

I like Parker , he’s a big fellow now, because he gives the team more inside punch in the paint ,  I think he enjoys ruff housing and banging to get a shot .  Something the Jays try and avoid .  Sometimes you need guys willing to bang inside to get those shots too.  I look forward to him working in the paint .

[Roy H.]

I don't understand why so many are saying Jabari Parker is an upgrade on Mo Wagner. Mo Wagner is a borderline to end of bench level NBA player. Jabari Parker does not even belong in this league and has not for many years.

His offense is good but his defense is dreadful and takes far more off the table than his offense adds to it.

A downgrade and a waste of a roster spot. At least we still have Semi and Grant Williams at PF to stop this guy from hurting our team too much. Still what a waste of a roster spot.

I don’t think it’s possible for an NBA player to be more useless than Wagner has been here.  We don’t need five centers, but even by the theoretical standard of “what do you want from your fifth center”, he was below that.

Parker’s defense really is atrocious.  Like, Kyrie bad, or worse.  But, in today’s offense-only league, I think a good offense / terrible defense player can get minutes.  If anything, a failure to foster those types of players is one of Stevens’ weaknesses; it limits the talent pool.  I mean, we’ve been living with the inverse of that — good defense, terrible offense — for years.

When you are a disgrace of a defender, you need to be an immense offensive talent. Not merely a good one. If you are only a good one, you are still a net negative and a large one at that -- which is what Jabari Parker is.

You need to be passable defensively -- like low effort Kyrie -- to be merely good on offense to be of use to an NBA team.

Otherwise, you are better off with a limited offensive threat like Semi or Grant Williams because at least they won't hurt you as bad as a player like Jabari Parker will. They have less positive contributions but also far less negative contributions to the team. A net positive over Jabari.

There are bad defenders.

And there are pathetic defenders. Jabari is pathetic.

And he is not good enough offensively to make up for how bad he is defensively. He'll have a good enough game every once in a while (say 1 out 5) where he is a net positive for you but the rest of the time he is just hurting you (say 4 out of 5 games).

He just does not bring enough to the table.

He is not an NBA player. He should go abroad to a slower less athletic league. He could succeed in that environment and have a good professional career. Someplace like China or Europe.

Injuries have decimated his quickness & agility on defense. He is not an NBA player.

Last night is an example of what I was talking about.  When Jabari is playing well offensively, that adds more than the poor defense takes away.  As I indicated in my prior post, I think that that's especially true in today's era, where the offense has so many advantages.

I think that Brad has had to rely too much upon guys who are "pathetic" offensively.   Last night, Williams was extremely bad on the offensive end.  So bad that Draymond Green could roam wherever he wanted defensively.  We were quite literally playing 4-on-5 offensively.  That hurt the team.  Did his defensive contributions make up for it?  Not on the stat sheet, at least.  There are going to be nights right now.

With Grant Williams and Semi, we have two guys like that.  What harm is there in having the inverse?  Offense is more important than defense in today's league, and we just didn't have anybody like Jabari who could be a plus offensively.  He sure as heck brings more than keeping Mo Wagner around as a really bad fourth center.

[Who]

I don't understand why so many are saying Jabari Parker is an upgrade on Mo Wagner. Mo Wagner is a borderline to end of bench level NBA player. Jabari Parker does not even belong in this league and has not for many years.

His offense is good but his defense is dreadful and takes far more off the table than his offense adds to it.

A downgrade and a waste of a roster spot. At least we still have Semi and Grant Williams at PF to stop this guy from hurting our team too much. Still what a waste of a roster spot.

I don’t think it’s possible for an NBA player to be more useless than Wagner has been here.  We don’t need five centers, but even by the theoretical standard of “what do you want from your fifth center”, he was below that.

Parker’s defense really is atrocious.  Like, Kyrie bad, or worse.  But, in today’s offense-only league, I think a good offense / terrible defense player can get minutes.  If anything, a failure to foster those types of players is one of Stevens’ weaknesses; it limits the talent pool.  I mean, we’ve been living with the inverse of that — good defense, terrible offense — for years.

When you are a disgrace of a defender, you need to be an immense offensive talent. Not merely a good one. If you are only a good one, you are still a net negative and a large one at that -- which is what Jabari Parker is.

You need to be passable defensively -- like low effort Kyrie -- to be merely good on offense to be of use to an NBA team.

Otherwise, you are better off with a limited offensive threat like Semi or Grant Williams because at least they won't hurt you as bad as a player like Jabari Parker will. They have less positive contributions but also far less negative contributions to the team. A net positive over Jabari.

There are bad defenders.

And there are pathetic defenders. Jabari is pathetic.

And he is not good enough offensively to make up for how bad he is defensively. He'll have a good enough game every once in a while (say 1 out 5) where he is a net positive for you but the rest of the time he is just hurting you (say 4 out of 5 games).

He just does not bring enough to the table.

He is not an NBA player. He should go abroad to a slower less athletic league. He could succeed in that environment and have a good professional career. Someplace like China or Europe.

Injuries have decimated his quickness & agility on defense. He is not an NBA player.

Last night is an example of what I was talking about.  When Jabari is playing well offensively, that adds more than the poor defense takes away.  As I indicated in my prior post, I think that that's especially true in today's era, where the offense has so many advantages.

I think that Brad has had to rely too much upon guys who are "pathetic" offensively.   Last night, Williams was extremely bad on the offensive end.  So bad that Draymond Green could roam wherever he wanted defensively.  We were quite literally playing 4-on-5 offensively.  That hurt the team.  Did his defensive contributions make up for it?  Not on the stat sheet, at least.  There are going to be nights right now.

With Grant Williams and Semi, we have two guys like that.  What harm is there in having the inverse?  Offense is more important than defense in today's league, and we just didn't have anybody like Jabari who could be a plus offensively.  He sure as heck brings more than keeping Mo Wagner around as a really bad fourth center.

I see what you are saying but I don't know ...

I definitely come at it from a different view. Last night is an easy positive for Jabari because he shot 5-6 FGAs in 16 minutes. What happens when he doesn't shoot 5-6 FGAs? What if only 50% shooting? What about on nights where it is only 40% or less?

So then the next question to me is what is the ratio of those good to middling to bad nights.

And another question - more towards your point of view - are those nights where the players does have a positive impact, are they worth the bad nights where he has a negative impact? What price are you (or we) willing to pay to have those good nights? How many bad games are we willing to put up with to have those good nights where he is a difference maker?

I don't have a definite answer to any of that. Those are just the questions I wonder about.

My gut tells me players like Jabari overall hurt a team more than they help a team despite the odd / infrequent standout performance (that less skilled but more reliable players do not offer). That is not worth all the bad games you have to suffer through in order to get those fewer positive good games.

[Who]

Funnily enough, I'd bracket Jabari Parker and Mo Wagner in a similar all offense vs no defense end of bench player bracket -- though I have Jabari as a non NBA level player and Mo as a borderline call level NBA player so I rate Mo slightly higher.

Overall, I do not like either one of those guys.



I am coming around on this point of view of Jabari as an offensive PF/SF being of more value than an offensive C given Kornet's strong play.

[nickagneta]

A coach needs a bench to be like a toolbox. A whole bunch of different tools, some being in that box to do only specific jobs. So I don't have an issue with all offense/no defense guys similar to not having issues with all defense/no offense guys. It's up to the coach to use those tools properly.

My question before yesterday was whether Parker could still be that all offense/no defense guy. We knew he had no defense, last night showed that, but since leaving Atlanta, he had barely played and when he did he appeared to be overweight, not moving around well and his offense looked as it had taken a major step backwards.

If used right, like last night, and put into player groupings that hide his defensive deficiencies, he could be a nice addition. Now let's see if Stevens continues to use him right and if Parker can consistently do what he did against the Warriors.

[Silas]

I liked the effort by Smart to pass the ball to him in the paint a few seconds after he checked in.  Unfortunately he couldn't handle it, maybe a little nervous, it looked like a good pass.  I've seen Smart do that with other players to get them involved as soon as they check in. 

[SHAQATTACK]

I liked the effort by Smart to pass the ball to him in the paint a few seconds after he checked in.  Unfortunately he couldn't handle it, maybe a little nervous, it looked like a good pass.  I've seen Smart do that with other players to get them involved as soon as they check in.

This is exactly why Smart should start .  His mindset to get guys going .

[footey]

We have no guys besides our top 4 starters who can make a play out of nothing.

Jabari can make a play out of nothing.

No brainer.