Celtics (40-22) at Suns (20-42) Game #63 3/5/17

[Somebody]

Guys calm down he explicitly said "not saying it was his fault" and "we" regarding the turnover. Stop over reacting.

Uh, no. You can't rant about how Jae didn't get it off to you in time and you not being sure what he was thinking, then casually say "but it's not his fault" as a qualifier. I can go off on a diatribe and criticize you incessantly then try to qualify that by saying "but not trying to criticize you," but that doesn't mean I'm actually not criticizing you. It just means that I'm trying to walk back something that I said.

That was CLEARLY a bad TO on IT, not Jae, and everyone in the basketball world is saying the same thing and kind of making fun of the fact that IT is saying it was Jae's fault/TO. As the leader of the team, he should've admitted his fault and moved on. It happens to everyone, even the best players, so it's not like it's a big deal.

But the fact that he passed blame onto Jae without mentioning his own fumble OR his missed game-winning free throw just shows that he's not leadership material.

um no. If IT was blaming Crowder he obviouly would not have even said it in such a manner (He would be absolutely crucifying Crowder for a bad pass in such a moment). And I think two sentences about Jae does not qualify as a diatribe, so that pretty much makes your comparison null. I do think that IT should said something about himself instead of making it look like he's blaming others which could cause a misunderstanding but I don't think he was pushing everything on Jae. Well on to the next game and let's hope that IT does hold himself a bit more accountable next time. I wasn't saying that IT was right in this situation but I think crucifying him because of this is a bit overboard.

[Tr1boy]

Don't get the hate against IT here. We complained for years we needed a star, got one for next to nothing, he becomes a 2 time All-Star, has an MVP caliber season, and people take every opportunity to take shots at him. I just don't get it.

Well, first, because he's got significant holes in his game that makes it extremely difficult for him to be the centerpiece of any team. For as good as he is on offense (MVP level), he's nearly as deficient on defense. We only outscore opponents by .9 points per 100 possessions when IT is on the floor, which is crazy given the offensive year he is having. Further, he has very suspect decision-making at times, especially lately, because he sometimes lacks trust of his teammates and tries to force too much.

Second, being a star and leader of a team entails more responsibility than a role player, which means that your errors and weaknesses will be given more attention and scrutiny. That's the price of admission. If IT wants all this star attention, then he has to take the extra responsibility that comes with it. This is the same thing that happens to all the stars across the league. IT is no different.

I've never understood why many on this blog feel that you cannot criticize IT because he's our "star" and best player. Do people not see the significant holes in his game? Why do people get chided when they criticize IT for legitimate reasons? We're not talking about Lebron James here. We're talking about a star that while he's probably a top-5 or so offensive player in the league, he's almost certainly a bottom 5 worst defender in the league, along with having questionable decision-making abilities.

As long as you give him the credit when it is due, I think it's more than fair to criticize his weak areas and question whether or not he's really worth maxing out and building our team around.

jp, I am not talking about you. You have consistently criticized IT and brought up good arguments with stats to back your points. I don't agree with them but you only critique and question.

But clearly you can see the difference between your criticisms and the vehement, hateful tone of many others that come out of the woodwork and use losses to rip apart IT then disappear and say nothing when the Cs are winning 14 of 16 games with IT carrying the team? Its those that people my post was directed at.

If you think its because of mainly IT4 this team is this good, you need to rewatch games... increase appreciation for the other members of this team

No player has the support network that IT4 has to make his offense fly.... He has Smart, AB doing his work on defense covering his man

He has Horford, KO , Amir, Jerebko setting incredible picks so he can have room to shoot, drive in without the presense of shot blockers

IT4 is an offensive weapon. He is a part of the success the team is having this season.... But he should trust the other players more and pass the ball ...increase team synergy... Not throw guys under the bus.. 

[jpotter33]

Don't get the hate against IT here. We complained for years we needed a star, got one for next to nothing, he becomes a 2 time All-Star, has an MVP caliber season, and people take every opportunity to take shots at him. I just don't get it.

Well, first, because he's got significant holes in his game that makes it extremely difficult for him to be the centerpiece of any team. For as good as he is on offense (MVP level), he's nearly as deficient on defense. We only outscore opponents by .9 points per 100 possessions when IT is on the floor, which is crazy given the offensive year he is having. Further, he has very suspect decision-making at times, especially lately, because he sometimes lacks trust of his teammates and tries to force too much.

Second, being a star and leader of a team entails more responsibility than a role player, which means that your errors and weaknesses will be given more attention and scrutiny. That's the price of admission. If IT wants all this star attention, then he has to take the extra responsibility that comes with it. This is the same thing that happens to all the stars across the league. IT is no different.

I've never understood why many on this blog feel that you cannot criticize IT because he's our "star" and best player. Do people not see the significant holes in his game? Why do people get chided when they criticize IT for legitimate reasons? We're not talking about Lebron James here. We're talking about a star that while he's probably a top-5 or so offensive player in the league, he's almost certainly a bottom 5 worst defender in the league, along with having questionable decision-making abilities.

As long as you give him the credit when it is due, I think it's more than fair to criticize his weak areas and question whether or not he's really worth maxing out and building our team around.

jp, I am not talking about you. You have consistently criticized IT and brought up good arguments with stats to back your points. I don't agree with them but you only critique and question.

But clearly you can see the difference between your criticisms and the vehement, hateful tone of many others that come out of the woodwork and use losses to rip apart IT then disappear and say nothing when the Cs are winning 14 of 16 games with IT carrying the team? Its those that people my post was directed at.

Oh, I know, and clearly that post wasn't directed at you either. I was more just pointing out why someone from my type of perspective might feel the need to criticize our lone star's weaknesses and be hesitant about committing to him long-term.

But, sure, there's definitely a bunch of IT naysayers that only look to unfairly criticize him without giving him his props when due. That's for certain, and I'm sure every major sports star has those types of "fans." Though I'd also say that you have IT apologists just like you have the IT naysayers. They might not be as vocal and apparent as the naysayers, but they're there.

[nickagneta]

Don't get the hate against IT here. We complained for years we needed a star, got one for next to nothing, he becomes a 2 time All-Star, has an MVP caliber season, and people take every opportunity to take shots at him. I just don't get it.

Well, first, because he's got significant holes in his game that makes it extremely difficult for him to be the centerpiece of any team. For as good as he is on offense (MVP level), he's nearly as deficient on defense. We only outscore opponents by .9 points per 100 possessions when IT is on the floor, which is crazy given the offensive year he is having. Further, he has very suspect decision-making at times, especially lately, because he sometimes lacks trust of his teammates and tries to force too much.

Second, being a star and leader of a team entails more responsibility than a role player, which means that your errors and weaknesses will be given more attention and scrutiny. That's the price of admission. If IT wants all this star attention, then he has to take the extra responsibility that comes with it. This is the same thing that happens to all the stars across the league. IT is no different.

I've never understood why many on this blog feel that you cannot criticize IT because he's our "star" and best player. Do people not see the significant holes in his game? Why do people get chided when they criticize IT for legitimate reasons? We're not talking about Lebron James here. We're talking about a star that while he's probably a top-5 or so offensive player in the league, he's almost certainly a bottom 5 worst defender in the league, along with having questionable decision-making abilities.

As long as you give him the credit when it is due, I think it's more than fair to criticize his weak areas and question whether or not he's really worth maxing out and building our team around.

jp, I am not talking about you. You have consistently criticized IT and brought up good arguments with stats to back your points. I don't agree with them but you only critique and question.

But clearly you can see the difference between your criticisms and the vehement, hateful tone of many others that come out of the woodwork and use losses to rip apart IT then disappear and say nothing when the Cs are winning 14 of 16 games with IT carrying the team? Its those that people my post was directed at.

If you think its because of mainly IT4 this team is this good, you need to rewatch games... increase appreciation for the other members of this team

No player has the support network that IT4 has to make his offense fly.... He has Smart, AB doing his work on defense covering his man

He has Horford, KO , Amir, Jerebko setting incredible picks so he can have room to shoot, drive in without the presense of shot blockers

IT4 is an offensive weapon. He is a part of the success the team is having this season.... But he should trust the other players more and pass the ball ...increase team synergy... Not throw guys under the bus..

When did I say that this team is only this good because of IT? When did I show an underappreciation of other members of this team? Stop trying to twist my words into something they aren't

[tarheelsxxiii]

Don't get the hate against IT here. We complained for years we needed a star, got one for next to nothing, he becomes a 2 time All-Star, has an MVP caliber season, and people take every opportunity to take shots at him. I just don't get it.

Well, first, because he's got significant holes in his game that makes it extremely difficult for him to be the centerpiece of any team. For as good as he is on offense (MVP level), he's nearly as deficient on defense. We only outscore opponents by .9 points per 100 possessions when IT is on the floor, which is crazy given the offensive year he is having. Further, he has very suspect decision-making at times, especially lately, because he sometimes lacks trust of his teammates and tries to force too much.

Second, being a star and leader of a team entails more responsibility than a role player, which means that your errors and weaknesses will be given more attention and scrutiny. That's the price of admission. If IT wants all this star attention, then he has to take the extra responsibility that comes with it. This is the same thing that happens to all the stars across the league. IT is no different.

I've never understood why many on this blog feel that you cannot criticize IT because he's our "star" and best player. Do people not see the significant holes in his game? Why do people get chided when they criticize IT for legitimate reasons? We're not talking about Lebron James here. We're talking about a star that while he's probably a top-5 or so offensive player in the league, he's almost certainly a bottom 5 worst defender in the league, along with having questionable decision-making abilities.

As long as you give him the credit when it is due, I think it's more than fair to criticize his weak areas and question whether or not he's really worth maxing out and building our team around.

jp, I am not talking about you. You have consistently criticized IT and brought up good arguments with stats to back your points. I don't agree with them but you only critique and question.

But clearly you can see the difference between your criticisms and the vehement, hateful tone of many others that come out of the woodwork and use losses to rip apart IT then disappear and say nothing when the Cs are winning 14 of 16 games with IT carrying the team? Its those that people my post was directed at.

If you think its because of mainly IT4 this team is this good, you need to rewatch games... increase appreciation for the other members of this team

No player has the support network that IT4 has to make his offense fly.... He has Smart, AB doing his work on defense covering his man

He has Horford, KO , Amir, Jerebko setting incredible picks so he can have room to shoot, drive in without the presense of shot blockers

IT4 is an offensive weapon. He is a part of the success the team is having this season.... But he should trust the other players more and pass the ball ...increase team synergy... Not throw guys under the bus..

Disagree with on-the-court assessment, but regardless, would Horford have signed in BOS w/ out IT? Would the Celts be the #2 seed, or reach the 2nd round? 

[Denis998]

TBH, I dont really mind that we lost the game. I'm still jolly about that jumpball between Ulis and Isaiah

[tankcity!]

The Rozier bashers on this forum might be quiet tonight

One good game out of ten doesn't really help his case that much. Zeller has occasional big games, too. 

The hate for Rozier is over the top group think. He's a 2nd year player. He's still developing .he's going to take time.

Eh, I think a lot of the hate is justified. It's not just second year player stuff with Rozier. People hate on him because of his style and lack of BBIQ, which aren't necessarily things that will change with him.

Granted, I also think many people had an exaggerated perception of how useful he'd be this year after his summer league and preseason, so I think that plays into it, too.

You really want to go through this again. Didn't you say you would stop talking about Smart vs. Rozier? I mean in the summer you said Smart would be an all star. Still looks like Tony Allen at best...you say he's great at passing but he doesn't get many assists for a guy that has the ball in his hands as much. Seriously, chill out. Hopefully Rozier is good. Clearly you're not rooting for him. Pretty sad stuff.

[tankcity!]

Rozier has 14 points, 3 rebounds on 5-7 shooting with no turnovers in 13 minutes and people on here still complain?

Who is complaining? I said he's having a good game, but that doesn't change the fact that he's been hot garbage for pretty much the entire season and is a big reason why our bench is so subpar.

Yeah no idea why someone as smart as Stevens is playing him. I mean you're clearly smarter. We'll see how rozier turns out

[jpotter33]

The Rozier bashers on this forum might be quiet tonight

One good game out of ten doesn't really help his case that much. Zeller has occasional big games, too. 

The hate for Rozier is over the top group think. He's a 2nd year player. He's still developing .he's going to take time.

Eh, I think a lot of the hate is justified. It's not just second year player stuff with Rozier. People hate on him because of his style and lack of BBIQ, which aren't necessarily things that will change with him.

Granted, I also think many people had an exaggerated perception of how useful he'd be this year after his summer league and preseason, so I think that plays into it, too.

You really want to go through this again. Didn't you say you would stop talking about Smart vs. Rozier? I mean in the summer you said Smart would be an all star. Still looks like Tony Allen at best...you say he's great at passing but he doesn't get many assists for a guy that has the ball in his hands as much. Seriously, chill out. Hopefully Rozier is good. Clearly you're not rooting for him. Pretty sad stuff.

Lol you're the one who needs to chill out, homie. I didn't say a thing about Smart - you did. All I said was that Rozier sucks, which by all measures he does.

And I never said Smart would be an All Star this year. That's crazy talk. But I still think he clearly has that type of capability. And you want to know why he doesn't have all that many assists? Because he's usually passing to our terrible bench scrubs who can't finish crap to give him the assists. KO alone blew 5 assist opportunities for Smart in the LA game.

And I'm clearly rooting for Rozier - he's a Celtic. At the very least, him improving helps his trade stock, which would also improve the C's. But I'm just not seeing anything special out of him now. He has a putrid offensive style for Brad's system; he's terrible defensively; and he has a very low BBIQ. But hopefully he can adjust his game enough and let his athleticism and improved shooting carry him enough to be a solid rotation member for us.

Check yo'self, fool! 

Rozier has 14 points, 3 rebounds on 5-7 shooting with no turnovers in 13 minutes and people on here still complain?

Who is complaining? I said he's having a good game, but that doesn't change the fact that he's been hot garbage for pretty much the entire season and is a big reason why our bench is so subpar.

Yeah no idea why someone as smart as Stevens is playing him. I mean you're clearly smarter. We'll see how rozier turns out

Lol you have an unhealthy obsession with both Rozier and me criticizing him. Do you have a crush on me? 

[Ilikesports17]

The Rozier bashers on this forum might be quiet tonight

One good game out of ten doesn't really help his case that much. Zeller has occasional big games, too. 

The hate for Rozier is over the top group think. He's a 2nd year player. He's still developing .he's going to take time.

Eh, I think a lot of the hate is justified. It's not just second year player stuff with Rozier. People hate on him because of his style and lack of BBIQ, which aren't necessarily things that will change with him.

Granted, I also think many people had an exaggerated perception of how useful he'd be this year after his summer league and preseason, so I think that plays into it, too.

You really want to go through this again. Didn't you say you would stop talking about Smart vs. Rozier? I mean in the summer you said Smart would be an all star. Still looks like Tony Allen at best...you say he's great at passing but he doesn't get many assists for a guy that has the ball in his hands as much. Seriously, chill out. Hopefully Rozier is good. Clearly you're not rooting for him. Pretty sad stuff.

at 4.5 assists per game Marcus Smart has the second mosts apg for a backup point gaurd in the NBA.Edit: inaccurate.

He is a very good distributor. He is already a better offensive player than Tony Allen ever was(post ACL at least).

[jpotter33]

Oh, and by the way, TankCity, here's the actual numbers on the assists for Smart. At 4.5 per game, he is 39th best in the league per game. Below are the only players on that list above him that are currently bench players. However, as shown below, almost all of them spent over half of the games this year as the starting point guard and primary ballhandler.

Smart has started 22 games this year, but he's only been the starting point guard and primary ballhandler in 4 of those starts - the only 4 games that IT has missed this year. So for the primary bench players that have actually played half of their games or more off of the bench, Smart is actually 5th in the league in bench assists per game trailing only Smith, Nelson, Jennings, and Lawson. So for coming off the bench and sharing the ball handling duties with both IT and Rozier, I'd say he's doing just fine in the assists department, even with scrub teammates around him. 

Williams - 6.7 (starter most of the year as the primary ballhandler)
Rondo - 6.5 (started over half of the year as the primary ballhandler)
Payton - 5.7 (started over half of the year as the primary ballhandler)
Frazier - 5.3 (started exactly half of the year as the primary ballhandler)
Delladavedova - 5.2 (started 80% of the year as the primary ballhandler)
Ish Smith - 5.1 (started 33% of the year as the primary ballhandler)
Rodriguez - 5.0 (started over half of the year as the primary ballhandler)
Nelson - 4.9 (started 40% of the year as the primary ballhandler)
Jennings - 4.9
Lawson - 4.6
Smart - 4.5

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/assists/sort/avgAssists

[tankcity!]

Omg, do I really have to break it down for you? First, I barley even post in the game thread and I need to chill? Lol okay dude. Jpotter, all you do is whine. It's pretty sad stuff. We're not winning a ring this year, enjoy the ride. You nor I have any idea what Rozier will be. Stevens plays Rozier alot and that's awesome because it will help him develop. Like I said, it's sad you have nothing better to do but obsessively criticize players on this team when who knows if they will be on the team during our championship run.

Second, you're really going to throw backup pg stats at me? Who cares if he comes off the bench, lol. He plays 30 minutes a game...You also basically listed players that I really don't care much for. That includes Louis Williams who can't play any D. Good regular season player, but not a championship one.

Smart is a championship player. He is a great roleplayer. YOU SAID HE WOULD MAKE A JUMP. He didn't imo. If you do, that's great but you can't provide any evidence with the exception of the eye test. I'm sorry but that doesn't work in debates because I'm not using your obsessive Smart Fanatic Goggles. I can't see through your eyes.

I seriously can't wait to see your reaction in the playoffs. If you act like this during a regular season game, you'll probably have a stroke during the playoffs. Just remember, this team is about the future and not now. Take a breath. Go out for a walk. Hangout with your family. No reason to overreact during the games.

[tankcity!]

FYI, Smart is my 2nd favorite Celtic player. I love the guy and don't want to trade him. But the posters on this board really Ruin the player for me. It's my fault for reading these boards. Just wish Celtics fans were less emotional during these game threads. We are really only half way there on the rebuild. People don't seem to Realize IT and Horford are truly only bridge players. Even if we sign Griffin, we're not beating the Warriors until the nets picks develeop.

[tankcity!]

Bump for JPOTTER. Probably missed this reply

[tenn_smoothie]

82 games, gonna have a couple like this.  Overall we've been really good in close games.

I have seen several seasons go by without an abortion like the end of this game.