Author Topic: Minutes Comparison Toronto, GSW and Celtics  (Read 2589 times)

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Re: Minutes Comparison Toronto, GSW and Celtics
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2018, 02:45:25 PM »

Offline CF033

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The league has changed a lot.  Remember back in the day when it wasn’t uncommon for players to average 43 minutes per night.  Iverson was able to pad his stats for most of his career getting crazy minutes like that.  The whole “playoff rondo” thing was influenced in large part by Rajon averaging 43 minutes in the playoffs. More minutes = more stats.   I was comparing Tatum to other elite prospects through history and saw LeBron James averaged 42 during his second season.

I know big picture it’s nice to keep our minutes down, but the fan part of me gets a little annoyed.  Like, Tatum averaging 31mpg... I kinda want to see him get 35 (and more touches) so he can average 20+ Points and make an allstar team.  I know if he was playing on a lesser team he’d probably be averaging close to 26 points right now.

Eh... Being an All-Star is slightly overrated award/accolade to receive, but I get your point.

Paul Pierce during his second season (a couple years older than Tatum), averaged 35.4 mpg and 15 shot attempts.  He ended up averaging 19.5 points.  Next couple seasons he was up to 38-40mpg with 18.5-19.5 shot attempts per game ... hence why he was able to get 25-26ppg. 

I'm just saying, from a pure fan standpoint, it's a bit annoying to see Tatum only getting 31mpg and only 13 shot attempts.  The kid is elite, but people still aren't giving him credit because he's "only" averaging 16ppg.  I mean... look at his stats this season:

16.6 points, 6.3 rebounds, 1.9 assists, 1 steal with .469/.419/844 shooting in 31mpg.

If you inflate his shot attempts from 13 to 19.5, he's averaging 25 points.

If you inflate Tatum's minutes to 40mpg (as Pierce did his 4th season),  he's easily dropping 20+. 

You're right that the accolades don't matter, but I just think it results in people underselling how great this kid actually, because they look at someone like Donovan Mitchell averaging more minutes and taking 18 shots per game compared to Tatum's 13 and they act like the bigger bulk numbers mean he's a better player.   Also just thinking 15-20 years from now when we look at Tatum's career, he's going to get a little robbed in the all-time books, because he didn't get the same type of freedom other young stars got in their early years.  I have every reason to believe Tatum is going to surpass Pierce in terms of skill and talent, but Pierce probably ends up having the more impressive numbers simply because he had more minutes and attempts.  FWIW, Tatum technically has a head start.  He's still a year younger than Paul was when Pierce entered the league after 3 seasons at Kansas.  So maybe Tatum's 3rd year stats will dwarf Paul's rookie stats.

That's just the way it is sometimes. When Paul Pierce got drafted by the Celts we sucked and the only other non-role player on the team was Antoine Walker so he moved to the front pretty quickly. It was pretty clear early on that he was the best player on the team.

Jason Tatum is one option on a very stacked Celts team and he's basically been the second or third option most nights, that's not bad for a guy his age. Yea he could probably be averaging 26 ppg on a lesser team but then he's be on a lesser team.

I'm sure Anthony Davis LOVES putting up monster stats while barely squeaking into the playoffs.

IMO it's a good thing that the minutes are getting spread out. Less chance of injury and players won't burn out as much.

Re: Minutes Comparison Toronto, GSW and Celtics
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2018, 03:20:03 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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The goal for using Tatum should be for him to help the team win a championship, not for the team to help him pad his stats to win accolades. We have an extremely deep team and that team has awesome depth, especially offensive depth.

Re: Minutes Comparison Toronto, GSW and Celtics
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2018, 03:28:34 PM »

Online Donoghus

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The goal for using Tatum should be for him to help the team win a championship, not for the team to help him pad his stats to win accolades. We have an extremely deep team and that team has awesome depth, especially offensive depth.

Exactly.  I'd like to think most people here would take key player on a championship contending team over stat padder on a crappy team.


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Re: Minutes Comparison Toronto, GSW and Celtics
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2018, 09:37:18 PM »

Offline JBcat

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The goal for using Tatum should be for him to help the team win a championship, not for the team to help him pad his stats to win accolades. We have an extremely deep team and that team has awesome depth, especially offensive depth.

Exactly.  I'd like to think most people here would take key player on a championship contending team over stat padder on a crappy team.


Yes, and those Paul Pierce early years that were iso heavy weren’t always pleasing to the eye watching a game.  The team oriented balance offense we have now is much more fun to watch.

Re: Minutes Comparison Toronto, GSW and Celtics
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2018, 09:37:43 PM »

Offline Big333223

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The goal for using Tatum should be for him to help the team win a championship, not for the team to help him pad his stats to win accolades. We have an extremely deep team and that team has awesome depth, especially offensive depth.

Exactly.  I'd like to think most people here would take key player on a championship contending team over stat padder on a crappy team.

And I'm thinking he'll have his time to put up 20 shots a night. He's still only 20. If things go well, he won't even be in his prime for another 5 years.
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Re: Minutes Comparison Toronto, GSW and Celtics
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2018, 01:33:17 AM »

Offline Rosco917

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How about trapping teams into playing at a greater pace. Nothing crazy just better pace, use what we have a great deal of... depth.

IMO the Celtics play too slow for the type of team they have. 

Re: Minutes Comparison Toronto, GSW and Celtics
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2018, 01:46:59 AM »

Offline RockinRyA

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How about trapping teams into playing at a greater pace. Nothing crazy just better pace, use what we have a great deal of... depth.

IMO the Celtics play too slow for the type of team they have.

I agree. Im not asking for 8 seca or less, just faater.

Re: Minutes Comparison Toronto, GSW and Celtics
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2018, 05:55:22 AM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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How about trapping teams into playing at a greater pace. Nothing crazy just better pace, use what we have a great deal of... depth.

IMO the Celtics play too slow for the type of team they have.

Don’t really see the need. They found their stride and it’s working.

Brad preaches ball movement and finding the right shot, no need to start playing faster just because we have players. When an offense is firing like ours has been lately, I wouldn’t mess with it.

A good half-court team is a good team, so I’d rather they keep perfecting their offense as Brad likes it. Those fast-paced teams with high-octane offenses may rattle off a nice record, but they usually don’t wind up in the Finals (GSW the outlier, and some scattered ones here and there). The last Eastern Conference champion that was in the top-10 in pace was the 2002 Nets.

We may be playing at a slowish pace, but our offense has been great lately and we are climbing up the ranks to elite (while their defense has been).

ORtg last 6 games:
136.2
125.8
118.7
127.7
144.1
115.1

While I don’t expect them to continue to pound opponents by 26ppg, there’s good reason to believe our offense has turned the corner.
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Re: Minutes Comparison Toronto, GSW and Celtics
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2018, 10:47:47 AM »

Offline Rosco917

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How about trapping teams into playing at a greater pace. Nothing crazy just better pace, use what we have a great deal of... depth.

IMO the Celtics play too slow for the type of team they have.

Don’t really see the need. They found their stride and it’s working.

Brad preaches ball movement and finding the right shot, no need to start playing faster just because we have players. When an offense is firing like ours has been lately, I wouldn’t mess with it.

A good half-court team is a good team, so I’d rather they keep perfecting their offense as Brad likes it. Those fast-paced teams with high-octane offenses may rattle off a nice record, but they usually don’t wind up in the Finals (GSW the outlier, and some scattered ones here and there). The last Eastern Conference champion that was in the top-10 in pace was the 2002 Nets.

We may be playing at a slowish pace, but our offense has been great lately and we are climbing up the ranks to elite (while their defense has been).

ORtg last 6 games:
136.2
125.8
118.7
127.7
144.1
115.1

While I don’t expect them to continue to pound opponents by 26ppg, there’s good reason to believe our offense has turned the corner.




Man, I hope you're right. I still say we need a few tests to remain so optimistic.