CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: droopdog7 on October 08, 2018, 10:13:58 AM
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So clearly the preseason was ugly. And I’m sure some will think I’m nuts. But I don’t think this team is constructed as well as it could be. So just for discussion, I’m wondering what guy could be switched out to make the team better.
For me it’s brown. I think this team would be better with a true sniper or even more of a 3 and D guy that plays his role and takes good shots.
As to actual players, I don’t have any in mind. And to the future, I don’t think we’d be giving away a future star. Brown not great at anything. He shows flashes of a whole lot of things but anything consistent.
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No one, especially not Brown, and especially not for the reasons you listed. He is our best perimeter defender. He was 10th place in DPOY last year, which means the rest of the league recognizes how good he is. He is versatile enough to block Durant's jumpshot, steal the ball from Curry, and block Love in the post.
Combine that with Brown's 40% from 3 last year, and he is probably one of the best 3/D players in the league. Who are you gonna replace him with that would be an upgrade to either defense or shooting?
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I think you're off on Brown.
Last year, he was one of the best defenders in the NBA, and shot 39.5% from 3PT.
In terms of who I'd swap out, I'd ideally like to replace one of our bench guards with a guy who is more of a pure scorer.
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I wouldn't replace any of the rotation players. I do think it would make sense, as others have suggested, for Hayward to come off the bench. As he's playing now, he could hurt the chemistry of the starting unit and it might be easier for him to get his groove back playing against other teams' bench players. He could also add much needed scoring for the second unit.
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I don't really have any concerns about the preseason.
Just for fun, though, I'd swap Hayward for Anthony Davis.
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I'll swap out Ojeleye for Anthony Davis.
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I'll swap out Ojeleye for Anthony Davis.
well yeah stuff like that, but I took this to mean swap out a starter for another starter. So for me I'd swap Tatum for Durant, giving me a starting 5 of Horford, Durant, Hayward, Brown, and Irving (in a vacuum I'd take James over Durant, but I don't want to deal with the James/Irving circus). I think Tatum is better than Brown, but I don't want Hayward or Tatum playing SG, which is why I went with Tatum instead of Brown.
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If we're trying to keep it roughly equal in talent, I'd swap out Morris for Danny Green. He can't create his own shot like at all but the 3 + D and being one of the best transition one-on-one defenders in the league would really help us. Could cripple our offense if we lose a scorer or two, though.
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If we're trying to keep it roughly equal in talent, I'd swap out Morris for Danny Green. He can't create his own shot like at all but the 3 + D and being one of the best transition one-on-one defenders in the league would really help us. Could cripple our offense if we lose a scorer or two, though.
For Brown? There's reason and stats to believe that Brown is better as both a shooter and defender.
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If we're trying to keep it roughly equal in talent, I'd swap out Morris for Danny Green. He can't create his own shot like at all but the 3 + D and being one of the best transition one-on-one defenders in the league would really help us. Could cripple our offense if we lose a scorer or two, though.
For Brown? There's reason and stats to believe that Brown is better as both a shooter and defender.
For Morris, like I said. Brown is clearly a better player than Green.
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Not sure I follow the exact intent. If it is to swap a Celtics player for another that plays the same position, I don't see much need for that but if we were to swap a starter or rotation player, we would need to swap for more size. How about some of these (understanding that it would not be a one for one trade):
Brown for Porzingis
Irving for Davis
Tatum for Davis
Brown for Towns
Rozier for Valanciunas
Rozier for Mirotic
Irving for Antetokounmpo
Rozer for Miles Turner
Rozier for Bender
Rozier for Chandler
I think you get the idea. Not that I expect any of these to happen but those bigs are the type of player that I think the Celtics need to balance their talent between pg/wings and bigs.
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As much as this hurts to think about....
Gordan for Anthony Davis.....
Irving
Brown
Tatum
Davis
AL
Terry
Smart
Morris
Thesis
Baynes
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Ingles for Morris
Great 3 and D guy who gets under people's skin, is an excellent passer who moves well without the ball and has great shot selection.
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We barely saw our whole team this preseason, so I think it is early.
Hayward is the cold, logical and correct answer and I hope that does not happen and we give him more time to come back as he is coming off a bad injury. I hope this move does not happen, I want to see him add to the Celtic Legacy.
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Yeah, I meant players of equal value but not necessarily same position. So no one on this team is going to return Davis or Durant. But if you want to trade kyrie for a center of equal value, then sure.
The Morris green trade is exactly the kind of thing I’m thinking about, and I think a good idea.
As for brown, he’s just too erratic IMO. And yes he’s a good defender but we can trade him for another good defender or a sharpshooter. I think those kind of players would fit the team better and like I said, I have little concern that we’d be trading away a future star.
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Ingles for Morris
Great 3 and D guy who gets under people's skin, is an excellent passer who moves well without the ball and has great shot selection.
Is he really a great "D guy"? You think better D guy than Morris (keeping in mind that overall "D" includes rebounding)? I think this is going the wrong way. We need more defensive size, not less. We have plenty of wings. Now granted, Morris is more of a swing than a big but that is still more size and strength than Ingles is going to give you.
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Yeah, I meant players of equal value but not necessarily same position. So no one on this team is going to return Davis or Durant. But if you want to trade kyrie for a center of equal value, then sure.
The Morris green trade is exactly the kind of thing I’m thinking about, and I think a good idea.
As for brown, he’s just too erratic IMO. And yes he’s a good defender but we can trade him for another good defender or a sharpshooter. I think those kind of players would fit the team better and like I said, I have little concern that we’d be trading away a future star.
Looks like we disagree on Brown's value.
There's not a lot of players that can replace Brown's defensive ability and versatility, shooting, open court ability, and driving (as well as the potential playmaking we've seen in the preseason).
He's already surpassed Carroll, Prince, Richardson, Barnes, Warren, Barton, Hood, KCP, Crabbe, Bazemore, and Lee as a wing player.
His current value is roughly Tobias Harris, Porter Jr., Covington, or Gary Harris. I like Brown's versatility on defense better than those guys.
I do think he has a higher upside than anyone I listed also.
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Ingles for Morris
Great 3 and D guy who gets under people's skin, is an excellent passer who moves well without the ball and has great shot selection.
Is he really a great "D guy"? You think better D guy than Morris (keeping in mind that overall "D" includes rebounding)? I think this is going the wrong way. We need more defensive size, not less. We have plenty of wings. Now granted, Morris is more of a swing than a big but that is still more size and strength than Ingles is going to give you.
Ingles is a better defender than Morris and he's about the size. So for roughly 1 less RPG that Morris gives you, you get a better shooter, passer, higher IQ guy, ballhandler, etc.
Ingles is a really underrated player. This is him vs Paul George:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Znv8lz4iOEU
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I'd swap whoever winds up on the very end of our bench for Anthony Davis. The end.
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I'd swap whoever winds up on the very end of our bench for Anthony Davis. The end.
May as well go with Jabari.
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There's not a lot of players that can replace Brown's defensive ability and versatility, shooting, open court ability, and driving (as well as the potential playmaking we've seen in the preseason).
And....he is still just 21 years old!
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I would swap out Gordon Hayward...don't need him. Definetly not Brown.
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Yeah, I meant players of equal value but not necessarily same position. So no one on this team is going to return Davis or Durant. But if you want to trade kyrie for a center of equal value, then sure.
The Morris green trade is exactly the kind of thing I’m thinking about, and I think a good idea.
As for brown, he’s just too erratic IMO. And yes he’s a good defender but we can trade him for another good defender or a sharpshooter. I think those kind of players would fit the team better and like I said, I have little concern that we’d be trading away a future star.
I feel you are way off the mark with Brown.
He has as much potential to be a future star as Tatum.
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I would swap out Gordon Hayward...don't need him. Definetly not Brown.
.. for who?? We can’t just go around tossing our second best player away
I’d swap Morris for a Taurean Prince type, if we’re strictly talking about comparable ability right now.
If we’re talking long-term, Morris for Ingles would be perfect. Or Morris for Jonathon Simmons
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I'm not switching Jaylen Brown.
Had a very good sophomore season, and still tons of potential to be even better. I'd keep him for as long as I can.
With that said, I really don't know who I would want to switch out from this lineup. All I know is I gotta keep Jaylen.
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Ingles for Morris
Great 3 and D guy who gets under people's skin, is an excellent passer who moves well without the ball and has great shot selection.
Good thinking. Also, he can guard up.
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Ingles for Morris
Great 3 and D guy who gets under people's skin, is an excellent passer who moves well without the ball and has great shot selection.
Excellent idea. This is the only realistic suggestion I like so far in this thread. Ingles would be an outstanding complement to our lineup.
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I would swap out Gordon Hayward...don't need him. Definetly not Brown.
.. for who?? We can’t just go around tossing our second best player away
I’d swap Morris for a Taurean Prince type, if we’re strictly talking about comparable ability right now.
If we’re talking long-term, Morris for Ingles would be perfect. Or Morris for Jonathon Simmons
He obviously hasnt been our second best player and will not be going forward...not seeing it
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I would swap out Gordon Hayward...don't need him. Definetly not Brown.
.. for who?? We can’t just go around tossing our second best player away
I’d swap Morris for a Taurean Prince type, if we’re strictly talking about comparable ability right now.
If we’re talking long-term, Morris for Ingles would be perfect. Or Morris for Jonathon Simmons
He obviously hasnt been our second best player and will not be going forward...not seeing it
I don't know what your standards are for people who haven't been able to play for almost 365 days are, but if you're expecting them to instantly return to their previous playing levels you've got another thing coming
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I would swap out Gordon Hayward...don't need him. Definetly not Brown.
.. for who?? We can’t just go around tossing our second best player away
I’d swap Morris for a Taurean Prince type, if we’re strictly talking about comparable ability right now.
If we’re talking long-term, Morris for Ingles would be perfect. Or Morris for Jonathon Simmons
He obviously hasnt been our second best player and will not be going forward...not seeing it
I don't know what your standards are for people who haven't been able to play for almost 365 days are, but if you're expecting them to instantly return to their previous playing levels you've got another thing coming
That's fine...but you are saying hes our second best player based off his Utah career. Hes done nothing here to this point and I'm taking into consideration his injury which is why I don't see him being our second best player..not gonna happen
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I think the most important stat for Jaylen Brown is DOB. He's still 21 (for about 2 more weeks). He's one guy in the pre-season who looked like his confidence took a leap forward. If not for Davis, I'd have a hard time saying goodbye Jaylen.
To me, the logical switch out guy is Rozier. I love his game, but he comes to mind as the most probable 'sell high" guy on the roster. He's made a name for himself and hasn't done anything in the pre-season that would shake anyone's confidence in him.
Not sure if you could really get a Valenciunas or Miles Turner, but that sounds good to me.
I think the C's are going to lose Theis this off-season, so need for another big for the long-term. Can someone confirm this for me? I've been under the impression that the C's are locked into a limitation on what they will be able to offer Theis that other teams won't be held to? Maybe it's lack of Bird Rights and therefore will have cap limitation?
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I would swap out Gordon Hayward...don't need him. Definetly not Brown.
.. for who?? We can’t just go around tossing our second best player away
I’d swap Morris for a Taurean Prince type, if we’re strictly talking about comparable ability right now.
If we’re talking long-term, Morris for Ingles would be perfect. Or Morris for Jonathon Simmons
He obviously hasnt been our second best player and will not be going forward...not seeing it
I don't know what your standards are for people who haven't been able to play for almost 365 days are, but if you're expecting them to instantly return to their previous playing levels you've got another thing coming
That's fine...but you are saying hes our second best player based off his Utah career. Hes done nothing here to this point and I'm taking into consideration his injury which is why I don't see him being our second best player..not gonna happen
I'm assuming he'll be able to return to form, because we've seen examples of the same injury occurring to elite players (like PG13) without hindering their long-term talent. Paul George played a handful of games at the end of a season, then had a fully healthy summer, then came back better than ever.
He's still got probably the second best, or second most developed and well rounded, scorer on the team, arguably the best playmaker, and a more versatile defender than a lot of our players. I'm happy to be proven wrong by JT or JB eclipsing him, but I still believe he'll be able to provide 17-22ppg, with a handful of assists and rebounds each. We'll see!
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I would swap out Gordon Hayward...don't need him. Definetly not Brown.
.. for who?? We can’t just go around tossing our second best player away
I’d swap Morris for a Taurean Prince type, if we’re strictly talking about comparable ability right now.
If we’re talking long-term, Morris for Ingles would be perfect. Or Morris for Jonathon Simmons
He obviously hasnt been our second best player and will not be going forward...not seeing it
I don't know what your standards are for people who haven't been able to play for almost 365 days are, but if you're expecting them to instantly return to their previous playing levels you've got another thing coming
That's fine...but you are saying hes our second best player based off his Utah career. Hes done nothing here to this point and I'm taking into consideration his injury which is why I don't see him being our second best player..not gonna happen
I'm assuming he'll be able to return to form, because we've seen examples of the same injury occurring to elite players (like PG13) without hindering their long-term talent. Paul George played a handful of games at the end of a season, then had a fully healthy summer, then came back better than ever.
He's still got probably the second best, or second most developed and well rounded, scorer on the team, arguably the best playmaker, and a more versatile defender than a lot of our players. I'm happy to be proven wrong by JT or JB eclipsing him, but I still believe he'll be able to provide 17-22ppg, with a handful of assists and rebounds each. We'll see!
I'll be pleasantly surprised if he fits in and ends up being our second best player over jayson and jaylen nevermind Al who made the all star game and is an important piece
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I would swap out Gordon Hayward...don't need him. Definetly not Brown.
.. for who?? We can’t just go around tossing our second best player away
I’d swap Morris for a Taurean Prince type, if we’re strictly talking about comparable ability right now.
If we’re talking long-term, Morris for Ingles would be perfect. Or Morris for Jonathon Simmons
He obviously hasnt been our second best player and will not be going forward...not seeing it
I don't know what your standards are for people who haven't been able to play for almost 365 days are, but if you're expecting them to instantly return to their previous playing levels you've got another thing coming
That's fine...but you are saying hes our second best player based off his Utah career. Hes done nothing here to this point and I'm taking into consideration his injury which is why I don't see him being our second best player..not gonna happen
I'm assuming he'll be able to return to form, because we've seen examples of the same injury occurring to elite players (like PG13) without hindering their long-term talent. Paul George played a handful of games at the end of a season, then had a fully healthy summer, then came back better than ever.
He's still got probably the second best, or second most developed and well rounded, scorer on the team, arguably the best playmaker, and a more versatile defender than a lot of our players. I'm happy to be proven wrong by JT or JB eclipsing him, but I still believe he'll be able to provide 17-22ppg, with a handful of assists and rebounds each. We'll see!
I'll be pleasantly surprised if he fits in and ends up being our second best player over jayson and jaylen nevermind Al who made the all star game and is an important piece
I fear for Al - he's so happy to pass the ball and set up other guys to get their shots he might forget to himself!
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Love JT, but swapping him (and other players/picks) for AD puts us over the top.
I think Tatum has legit superstar potential, but Davis IS a perennial MVP candidate.
Brown fills a need as a proven SG who can defend and shoot. He also has superstar potential. Kyrie/Hayward/Horford aren’t going anywhere.
I know we’d have to wait until the offseason and matching salaries will be difficult, but that seems like the only logical move to make. Davis as the 4, Horford at C.
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I don't really have any concerns about the preseason.
Just for fun, though, I'd swap Hayward for Anthony Davis.
This.
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So perhaps it’s time to revisit this thread?
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So perhaps it’s time to revisit this thread?
Some overreactions will come flying
That being said: Brown for Doncic ;D
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So perhaps it’s time to revisit this thread?
Some overreactions will come flying
The team obviously looks terrible, but this thread was more of a big picture idea anyway. Even after the team is in sync the pieces don’t quite fit correctly and Brown I think should be the odd man out.
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So perhaps it’s time to revisit this thread?
Some overreactions will come flying
The team obviously looks terrible, but this thread was more of a big picture idea anyway. Even after the team is in sync the pieces don’t quite fit correctly and Brown I think should be the odd man out.
I think you're right. I know we disagreed about it before, but that was more the whole example of Redick and the premise that there might not be enough shots to go around. I think the shots are there, I just am not sure his game fits with us.
However, I don't think there are any suitable moves we can make this season. Keep him and throw the motherload at Davis
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Jimmy Butler for Jaylen?
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So perhaps it’s time to revisit this thread?
Some overreactions will come flying
The team obviously looks terrible, but this thread was more of a big picture idea anyway. Even after the team is in sync the pieces don’t quite fit correctly and Brown I think should be the odd man out.
I think you're right. I know we disagreed about it before, but that was more the whole example of Redick and the premise that there might not be enough shots to go around. I think the shots are there, I just am not sure his game fits with us.
However, I don't think there are any suitable moves we can make this season. Keep him and throw the motherload at Davis
Yeah, I haven’t gone as far as proposing an actual trade either. I’m happy to let it play out as well. Just think he’s the odd man out in an ideal world.
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Hayward for a bag of balls and a 2nd round pick
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Hayward needs to come off the bench as 6th man--for offense.
He may be making most of the money, but he doesn't look like a fit to start on this team at this point--not with the fast progression of Tatum, Brown and even Rozier.
They need more speed and athleticism in the lineup. A better transition game for easier shots. And better defense.
I'd also like to see more of Williams--as a rebounder and shot blocker--not as a shooter. I read somewhere he's getting shooting lessons. Nobody ever taught Russell how to shoot. That wasn't his job. Know your job!
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So perhaps it’s time to revisit this thread?
Some overreactions will come flying
The team obviously looks terrible, but this thread was more of a big picture idea anyway. Even after the team is in sync the pieces don’t quite fit correctly and Brown I think should be the odd man out.
The pieces fit quite well last season with Hayward out of the lineup. So what does that tell you?
Brown and Tatum need space to improve even more this year, and you wonder if Hayward's presence in the starting lineup is impeding that.
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I'd also like to see more of Williams--as a rebounder and shot blocker--not as a shooter. I read somewhere he's getting shooting lessons. Nobody ever taught Russell how to shoot. That wasn't his job. Know your job!
Really, anytime you can put the basketball in the hole for your team it is a luxury and your job. We don't play the same kind of ball today that Russell, did. This is not the 60s. Modern bigs can shoot and often use that to draw out the opposing big man so team mates can attack the bucket.
Also, guess who is suggesting the Shooting Lessons. My money is on Ainge.