Author Topic: Rajon Rondo = BJ Armstrong.  (Read 69597 times)

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Re: So lets hear the excuses for Rondo!
« Reply #135 on: November 19, 2008, 08:02:42 PM »

Offline moiso

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Rondo and Payton came into the league with similar skills.  But Payton noticeably improved every year for several years.  Rondo has hit a plateau and I hope it is temporary.

Re: So lets hear the excuses for Rondo!
« Reply #136 on: November 19, 2008, 08:22:34 PM »

Offline Sweet17

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Quote
There are players who easily make 100 out of 100 jumpshots in the gym? 80% in games? Where did you come up with that one, because I haven't heard or seen ANYTHING which would back that up.

No that's about right. 70% is the number I have heard. I don't know about 100 of 100 shots - but if you got a chance to just shoot around with an average NBA player you would really be impressed.

Remember there is no stat specifically tracking UNCONTESTED jumpshots available to fans. I have little doubt that TEAMS have that stat. Every single bit of game tape is not catergorized and instantly accesible via computer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bn6O42a5vl8

Gilbert hit 87 out of 100 ONE HANDED. Guys like Eddie House really do come close to 100 out of 100. If you get a chance to attend practice or actually shoot around with NBA talent - they are much better shooters then you would think from watching TV games only.

 



Re: So lets hear the excuses for Rondo!
« Reply #137 on: November 20, 2008, 10:19:39 AM »

Offline BballTim

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Rondo and Payton came into the league with similar skills.  But Payton noticeably improved every year for several years.  Rondo has hit a plateau and I hope it is temporary.

  Payton was the same age Rondo is now when he was a rookie.

Re: So lets hear the excuses for Rondo!
« Reply #138 on: November 20, 2008, 12:47:47 PM »

Offline moiso

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ok, but regardless of age payton's career had like a 5 or 6 year arc of improvement.

Re: So lets hear the excuses for Rondo!
« Reply #139 on: November 20, 2008, 12:50:01 PM »

Offline BballTim

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ok, but regardless of age payton's career had like a 5 or 6 year arc of improvement.

  Ok, but when Payton was a little older than Rondo is now Seattle was looking to unload him and not finding any serious takers.

Re: So lets hear the excuses for Rondo!
« Reply #140 on: November 20, 2008, 12:54:29 PM »

Offline crownsy

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ok, but regardless of age payton's career had like a 5 or 6 year arc of improvement.

ok, but at the end of last year everyone agreed he was improving. we are 12 freaking games in, 6 of which (the start) he played well in, and he just played an excellent game.

so your argument is that games 7-11 consitiuted the "stall" in developmently arc that you are extrapilating from (i like to call that a slump) and payton never had one?

gary never played poorley in 5 stright games during his 5-6 year improvment arc? wow, news to me.

I think its more likely that your overstating what those 5 games mean.

he played poorley, thats all. He won't ever be a world beatign talent, but to take 5 games after a season where everyone was like "WOOOOWWWW!!! he's great!!! wait till next yeaR!!!" and go:

oh, he's hit his peak now. oh well.

Thats the same kind of thinking we used when we traded billups and joe johnson.





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Re: So lets hear the excuses for Rondo!
« Reply #141 on: November 20, 2008, 12:57:26 PM »

Offline KCattheStripe

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ok, but regardless of age payton's career had like a 5 or 6 year arc of improvement.

ok, but at the end of last year everyone agreed he was improving. we are 12 freaking games in, 6 of which (the start) he played well in, and he just played an excellent game.

so your argument is that games 7-11 consitiuted the "stall" in developmently arc (i like to call that a slump) and payton never had one?

gary never played poorley in 5 stright games? wow, news to me.

I think its more likely that your overstating what those 5 games mean.







Preach the good word reverend.

Re: So lets hear the excuses for Rondo!
« Reply #142 on: November 20, 2008, 02:05:07 PM »

Offline Bankshot

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I went to the Knicks game the other night and during warmups Rondo was knocking down jumper after jumper.  I know it's different during games, but he gets the same open shots during games, as he is constantly left wide open. I think he will eventually carry it over into games - at least I hope.
"If somebody would have told you when he was playing with the Knicks that Nate Robinson was going to change a big time game and he was going to do it mostly because of his defense, somebody would have got slapped."  Mark Jackson

Re: So lets hear the excuses for Rondo!
« Reply #143 on: November 20, 2008, 02:27:58 PM »

Offline moiso

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I like Rondo and he's a good point guard, but my point is that if he's going to be a perenial allstar, we're going to see some evidence of improvement real soon.  He's already good, I just wonder if he will be great.

Re: So lets hear the excuses for Rondo!
« Reply #144 on: November 20, 2008, 02:37:36 PM »

Offline crownsy

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I like Rondo and he's a good point guard, but my point is that if he's going to be a perenial allstar, we're going to see some evidence of improvement real soon.  He's already good, I just wonder if he will be great.

If your looking for him to turn into a CP3/deron level allstar, i think your overvaluing him. He's an excellent defensive PG with great quickness.

He's going to be a very good player, i think he'll be a multiple all star player, but he's not going to be a guy that gets penciled in every year, he'll be a guy that always plays very well, and sometimes has outstanding seasons.

But CP3/deron williams he is not, unless, as i said before he somehow highlanders ray allen's jumpshot.
“I will hurt you for this. A day will come when you think you’re safe and happy and your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth. And you will know the debt is paid.” – Tyrion

Re: So lets hear the excuses for Rondo!
« Reply #145 on: November 20, 2008, 02:38:40 PM »

Offline moiso

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Didn't say i expected him to be cp3, just said he came into the league with similar tools of a payton.

Re: So lets hear the excuses for Rondo!
« Reply #146 on: November 20, 2008, 02:40:56 PM »

Offline moiso

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and you don't know that he's going to be multiple allstar player, either.  He has the tools, lets see how he develops them.  He could make 7 allstar teams, or he could make none.  We don't know yet.

Re: So lets hear the excuses for Rondo!
« Reply #147 on: November 20, 2008, 03:22:08 PM »

Offline crownsy

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and you don't know that he's going to be multiple allstar player, either.  He has the tools, lets see how he develops them.  He could make 7 allstar teams, or he could make none.  We don't know yet.

right, which is why its  ridiculous to speculate that a 5 game slump shows he's hit a plateu and is no longer improving.

we don't know his potential, or if he'll reach it.

Generally i think by year 4 or 5 guys are pretty set in thier ways.
“I will hurt you for this. A day will come when you think you’re safe and happy and your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth. And you will know the debt is paid.” – Tyrion

Re: So lets hear the excuses for Rondo!
« Reply #148 on: November 20, 2008, 03:54:24 PM »

Offline rondilla

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I like Rondo and he's a good point guard, but my point is that if he's going to be a perenial allstar, we're going to see some evidence of improvement real soon.  He's already good, I just wonder if he will be great.

If your looking for him to turn into a CP3/deron level allstar, i think your overvaluing him. He's an excellent defensive PG with great quickness.

He's going to be a very good player, i think he'll be a multiple all star player, but he's not going to be a guy that gets penciled in every year, he'll be a guy that always plays very well, and sometimes has outstanding seasons.

But CP3/deron williams he is not, unless, as i said before he somehow highlanders ray allen's jumpshot.

Great Highlander line. I agree that he most likely will not be a perrennial All-Star. He will suffer from the same mindset that has prevented D.J. from being in the Hall of Fame: Defense just isn't valued by the media. Real defense, I mean. Chris Paul made second team All-Defense last year, and he isn't half the defender that Rondo is. Sure, he gets steals, and is quite good at that. Yet we saw him play us twice last season, and was completely unable to stop Rondo... yet Rondo did a very fine job on him. Their stats were almost identical head to head, yet Rondo isn't the offensive talent that Paul is, nor did he have the ball as much. Does that mean that Rondo is as good as Paul? Nope, but Paul's great offense and lesser defense was stalemated by Rondo's great defense and lesser offense.

D.J. was very well respected on defense, and made many All Star and All-Defensive teams, but when it came time for him to get put into the Hall of Fame, he didn't make it. Why? All you heard was B.S. about how his stats weren't good enough. Next to nothing about how D.J. would completey obliterate the guy he was guarding night in and night out with his D. Sure he wasn't putting up big offensive numbers, but he made his man's numbers look really bad and helped two different teams win Titles in the process.

In today's stat obsessed environment a guy like Rondo will tend to suffer. Someone like Mo Williams is considered "better" than Rondo. Rondo smoked that guy last season, and he dominated him in the first game this season. I actually think that the fans around here don't really understand how good Rondo is on the defensive end. He plays without a net 95% of the time. He is expected to take his man on, single up, AND help the others. You rarely see another Celtic anywhere near him unless it is a pick and roll, and that is a two man play. One of the main reasons that we hold teams to the percentage that we do is that our defense rarely has to collapse. Rondo is primarily responsible for that. A lot of teams cheat their defense to help out their point guards. Ours doesn't when Rondo is in there, and that allows the other 4 to stay home on their man.

It is routine, now, for our opponents to bring the ball up with a wing because of the pressure Rondo can put on the ball when he chooses to. Have you ever seen Rondo need someone else to take the ball up for him? How often do you see a team go at him on switches? How effective are pick and rolls against us? All he needs is for the big man to slow up his man a bit, and Rondo recovers the vast majority of the time. His ability to deny the ball is unparalled, IMO. Thibodeau has him playing very conservatively on the defensive end, yet he is still 6th in the league in steals. If he gambled as much as the guys ahead of him, and played more minutes, he'd be a lot higher. The kid makes steals that you don't see anyone else make, especially that poke from behind deal.

Personally I think that Rondo could realistically score 18ppg if this offense wasn't funnelling so many shots through Paul, Ray and Kevin. When Garnett went down last season, Rondo averaged 16ppg, shooting between 53 and 55 percent from the field, and was still averaging only 30mpg in that stretch. It wasn't as if he was taking a lot more shots either. He simply had the ball in his hands more, and it kept him in a better rhythm. I'm not advocating that Rondo should be scoring that many, just that he could do so efficiently, just as Paul, Kevin and Ray would score more if they didn't have to defer to each other so much.

All that said, I just don't think that it penetrates much with the press or public at large. If Rondo turned into a vegetable on the defensive end,and saw his scoring go up by 5 points, and his assists by 2, a lot of people would think that he had "improved".

Re: So lets hear the excuses for Rondo!
« Reply #149 on: November 20, 2008, 04:55:13 PM »

Offline LB3533

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I think, in today's NBA, if your PG doesn't score or can't hit the open J....then it's going to be really tough.

I mean, why are Steve Nash, CP3, DW and now even Derrick Rose are so much better than the next tier of PG's?

The answer is, not only do they have superior court vision and passing skills...they all can put the rock in the hole.

Baron Davis can score, but not as efficiently and his health is always in question...if he ain't playing he can't be on the court to score and dish.

Tony Parker, if not for his injury, he could be the best or 2nd best scoring PG in the league...because of his age and his ability to get to the wrack at will.