Author Topic: Jeter One Vote Short of Unanimous First Ballot Entry to HOF  (Read 10877 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Jeter One Vote Short of Unanimous First Ballot Entry to HOF
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2020, 10:17:59 PM »

Offline nickagneta

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 48120
  • Tommy Points: 8794
  • President of Jaylen Brown Fan Club
The HOF is ridiculous. Way too many mediocre players, and more gain traction every year.

Omar Vizquel is likely to be a Hall of Famer, but Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds and plenty of others aren’t.

Yeah, seems to be across sports too.
not really. Sure some mediocre players get in in other sports but everyone who should be in is

I was referencing the mediocre player thing which is absolutely the case across sports.

The Bonds/Clemens/etc quandary really seems to be unique to baseball for obvious reasons.
it isn't just steroids though.  Shoeless Joe isn't in.  Rose isn't in.  etc.

Edit: and it isn't just gambling either.  Some of the greatest players at their position or their generation aren't in.  Lou Whitaker, Dick Allen, Jack Morris, Jim Rice, Roger Maris, Trevor Hoffman, etc.  And you can make arguments as to why none of them are, but they just ring hollow.

Jack Morris, Trevor Hoffman, & Jim Rice are all in the HOF.
I was just about to write the same thing.

Re: Jeter One Vote Short of Unanimous First Ballot Entry to HOF
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2020, 10:25:14 PM »

Online Moranis

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33461
  • Tommy Points: 1533
The HOF is ridiculous. Way too many mediocre players, and more gain traction every year.

Omar Vizquel is likely to be a Hall of Famer, but Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds and plenty of others aren’t.

Yeah, seems to be across sports too.
not really. Sure some mediocre players get in in other sports but everyone who should be in is

I was referencing the mediocre player thing which is absolutely the case across sports.

The Bonds/Clemens/etc quandary really seems to be unique to baseball for obvious reasons.
it isn't just steroids though.  Shoeless Joe isn't in.  Rose isn't in.  etc.

Edit: and it isn't just gambling either.  Some of the greatest players at their position or their generation aren't in.  Lou Whitaker, Dick Allen, Jack Morris, Jim Rice, Roger Maris, Trevor Hoffman, etc.  And you can make arguments as to why none of them are, but they just ring hollow.

Jack Morris, Trevor Hoffman, & Jim Rice are all in the HOF.
my bad, site I was using didn't show them in the HOF.  Doesn't change some of the others and the fact the veteran committee had to put Rice and Morris in is a travesty.  Should have been voted in by the writers. 

MLB writers are awful.  They need new ones badly on the HOF committee.
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Jeter One Vote Short of Unanimous First Ballot Entry to HOF
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2020, 10:32:44 PM »

Offline nickagneta

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 48120
  • Tommy Points: 8794
  • President of Jaylen Brown Fan Club
The HOF is ridiculous. Way too many mediocre players, and more gain traction every year.

Omar Vizquel is likely to be a Hall of Famer, but Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds and plenty of others aren’t.

Yeah, seems to be across sports too.
not really. Sure some mediocre players get in in other sports but everyone who should be in is

I was referencing the mediocre player thing which is absolutely the case across sports.

The Bonds/Clemens/etc quandary really seems to be unique to baseball for obvious reasons.
it isn't just steroids though.  Shoeless Joe isn't in.  Rose isn't in.  etc.

Edit: and it isn't just gambling either.  Some of the greatest players at their position or their generation aren't in.  Lou Whitaker, Dick Allen, Jack Morris, Jim Rice, Roger Maris, Trevor Hoffman, etc.  And you can make arguments as to why none of them are, but they just ring hollow.

Jack Morris, Trevor Hoffman, & Jim Rice are all in the HOF.
my bad, site I was using didn't show them in the HOF.  Doesn't change some of the others and the fact the veteran committee had to put Rice and Morris in is a travesty.  Should have been voted in by the writers. 

MLB writers are awful.  They need new ones badly on the HOF committee.
Having some trouble with actual facts today, Moranis? Rice was voted in by the BBWAA not the Eras Committee.

Re: Jeter One Vote Short of Unanimous First Ballot Entry to HOF
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2020, 10:38:53 PM »

Online Moranis

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33461
  • Tommy Points: 1533
The HOF is ridiculous. Way too many mediocre players, and more gain traction every year.

Omar Vizquel is likely to be a Hall of Famer, but Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds and plenty of others aren’t.

Yeah, seems to be across sports too.
not really. Sure some mediocre players get in in other sports but everyone who should be in is

I was referencing the mediocre player thing which is absolutely the case across sports.

The Bonds/Clemens/etc quandary really seems to be unique to baseball for obvious reasons.
it isn't just steroids though.  Shoeless Joe isn't in.  Rose isn't in.  etc.

Edit: and it isn't just gambling either.  Some of the greatest players at their position or their generation aren't in.  Lou Whitaker, Dick Allen, Jack Morris, Jim Rice, Roger Maris, Trevor Hoffman, etc.  And you can make arguments as to why none of them are, but they just ring hollow.

Jack Morris, Trevor Hoffman, & Jim Rice are all in the HOF.
my bad, site I was using didn't show them in the HOF.  Doesn't change some of the others and the fact the veteran committee had to put Rice and Morris in is a travesty.  Should have been voted in by the writers. 

MLB writers are awful.  They need new ones badly on the HOF committee.
Having some trouble with actual facts today, Moranis? Rice was voted in by the BBWAA not the Eras Committee.
must be and yep 412 ballots in 2009.  I guess I should just go to bed and try again tomorrow.
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Jeter One Vote Short of Unanimous First Ballot Entry to HOF
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2020, 11:19:50 PM »

Offline slamtheking

  • NCE
  • Red Auerbach
  • *******************************
  • Posts: 31869
  • Tommy Points: 10047
The HOF is ridiculous. Way too many mediocre players, and more gain traction every year.

Omar Vizquel is likely to be a Hall of Famer, but Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds and plenty of others aren’t.

Yeah, seems to be across sports too.
not really. Sure some mediocre players get in in other sports but everyone who should be in is

I was referencing the mediocre player thing which is absolutely the case across sports.

The Bonds/Clemens/etc quandary really seems to be unique to baseball for obvious reasons.
it isn't just steroids though.  Shoeless Joe isn't in.  Rose isn't in.  etc.

Edit: and it isn't just gambling either.  Some of the greatest players at their position or their generation aren't in.  Lou Whitaker, Dick Allen, Jack Morris, Jim Rice, Roger Maris, Trevor Hoffman, etc.  And you can make arguments as to why none of them are, but they just ring hollow.

Jack Morris, Trevor Hoffman, & Jim Rice are all in the HOF.
my bad, site I was using didn't show them in the HOF.  Doesn't change some of the others and the fact the veteran committee had to put Rice and Morris in is a travesty.  Should have been voted in by the writers. 

MLB writers are awful.  They need new ones badly on the HOF committee.
Having some trouble with actual facts today, Moranis? Rice was voted in by the BBWAA not the Eras Committee.
must be and yep 412 ballots in 2009.  I guess I should just go to bed and try again tomorrow.
try again tomorrow because Dick Allen, Lou Whitaker and Roger Maris, while very good players, should not be in the Hall.

Re: Jeter One Vote Short of Unanimous First Ballot Entry to HOF
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2020, 12:25:14 AM »

Offline bdm860

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5952
  • Tommy Points: 4586
The HOF is ridiculous. Way too many mediocre players, and more gain traction every year.

Omar Vizquel is likely to be a Hall of Famer, but Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds and plenty of others aren’t.

Yeah, seems to be across sports too.
not really. Sure some mediocre players get in in other sports but everyone who should be in is

I was referencing the mediocre player thing which is absolutely the case across sports.

The Bonds/Clemens/etc quandary really seems to be unique to baseball for obvious reasons.
it isn't just steroids though.  Shoeless Joe isn't in.  Rose isn't in.  etc.

Edit: and it isn't just gambling either.  Some of the greatest players at their position or their generation aren't in.  Lou Whitaker, Dick Allen, Jack Morris, Jim Rice, Roger Maris, Trevor Hoffman, etc.  And you can make arguments as to why none of them are, but they just ring hollow.

Jack Morris, Trevor Hoffman, & Jim Rice are all in the HOF.
my bad, site I was using didn't show them in the HOF.  Doesn't change some of the others and the fact the veteran committee had to put Rice and Morris in is a travesty.  Should have been voted in by the writers. 

MLB writers are awful.  They need new ones badly on the HOF committee.
Having some trouble with actual facts today, Moranis? Rice was voted in by the BBWAA not the Eras Committee.
must be and yep 412 ballots in 2009.  I guess I should just go to bed and try again tomorrow.
try again tomorrow because Dick Allen, Lou Whitaker and Roger Maris, while very good players, should not be in the Hall.

For years, I always thought Maris should be in.  A 2x MVP who held one of the most revered single season records of all time that stood for almost 40 years, how could you not put him in?  That's 3 of the highest single season accomplishments, which is probably 2-3 more than most of the Hall.

Though thinking about it now, I think I finally get it.  Let's say Derrick Rose was healthier in '12 and won a 2nd MVP award that year after scoring 101 points in a single game, and the rest of his career played out the same way, I don't think I'd be putting him in the HOF either.

(Or would averaging 51ppg be more equivalent to 61 home runs, rather than scoring 101 in a game?)

Either way, I think I finally get Maris not being in the Hall.

After 18 months with their Bigs, the Littles were: 46% less likely to use illegal drugs, 27% less likely to use alcohol, 52% less likely to skip school, 37% less likely to skip a class

Re: Jeter One Vote Short of Unanimous First Ballot Entry to HOF
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2020, 08:14:36 AM »

Offline footey

  • Reggie Lewis
  • ***************
  • Posts: 15965
  • Tommy Points: 1833
FWIW, and I know no one cares about my opinion, but I wouldn't vote Jeter into the HOF, myself.

My criteria is that a player should have dominated or transformed some aspect of the game for an extended period.   Was the player ever one of the overall best players in baseball?  Was he ever the best at his position in baseball for an extended period?  Was he ever one of the best hitters in baseball for an extended period?

Jeter stayed healthy and has some impressive inning, game and plate appearance totals (and some seasons with large counting totals as a result).  And his teams were so dominant that he played in a ton of post-season innings as well.   So kudos for staying healthy, and being a well-above average player on a dominant team in baseball's biggest market.

If that's enough for others to vote him in, that's fine.  I just don't agree.  *shrug*

Interesting. Are you saying he wouldn't get your vote on first ballot, or ever?

Re: Jeter One Vote Short of Unanimous First Ballot Entry to HOF
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2020, 09:18:36 AM »

Offline nyceltsfan

  • Jrue Holiday
  • Posts: 383
  • Tommy Points: 31
mmmmm, I understand your viewpoint, but let me raise the following counterpoint.  Jeter is 6th in hits all time and he did that in less seasons played than anyone in the top 15 (except Pujols, who is still active).  That alone, should qualify him.

Add in the postseason accolades and the fact that he was always one of the top 3 at his position, except maybe for twilight of his career.  Also, I am not sure how many times he was in the top 5 of the mvp vote, but I would guess it was more than 2-3 times in his career.

Re: Jeter One Vote Short of Unanimous First Ballot Entry to HOF
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2020, 10:32:36 AM »

Offline mmmmm

  • NCE
  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5308
  • Tommy Points: 862
mmmmm, I understand your viewpoint, but let me raise the following counterpoint.  Jeter is 6th in hits all time and he did that in less seasons played than anyone in the top 15 (except Pujols, who is still active).  That alone, should qualify him.

Add in the postseason accolades and the fact that he was always one of the top 3 at his position, except maybe for twilight of his career.  Also, I am not sure how many times he was in the top 5 of the mvp vote, but I would guess it was more than 2-3 times in his career.

But not in less plate appearance totals.   His real achievement here is again his ability to stay healthy and play at an above-average level (so as to be in the lineup and not on the bench) for a prolonged time.   Most of his awards, other than the team awards and his one WS MVP award (deserved) tend to have been of the 'popularity voting' nature.   Again, he was a very very good player.  Not knocking him.

And again, if that is sufficient criteria for you to think a player belongs in the HoF, that's fine.  I just personally think a players needs to have shown more than that.   To have dominated or transformed some aspect of the game for a while.   And I don't believe Jeter ever did that.  But that's just my criteria.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Jeter One Vote Short of Unanimous First Ballot Entry to HOF
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2020, 10:35:08 AM »

Offline mmmmm

  • NCE
  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5308
  • Tommy Points: 862
FWIW, and I know no one cares about my opinion, but I wouldn't vote Jeter into the HOF, myself.

My criteria is that a player should have dominated or transformed some aspect of the game for an extended period.   Was the player ever one of the overall best players in baseball?  Was he ever the best at his position in baseball for an extended period?  Was he ever one of the best hitters in baseball for an extended period?

Jeter stayed healthy and has some impressive inning, game and plate appearance totals (and some seasons with large counting totals as a result).  And his teams were so dominant that he played in a ton of post-season innings as well.   So kudos for staying healthy, and being a well-above average player on a dominant team in baseball's biggest market.

If that's enough for others to vote him in, that's fine.  I just don't agree.  *shrug*

Interesting. Are you saying he wouldn't get your vote on first ballot, or ever?

Probably not ever.  Again, just based on my own criteria.   Did the player dominate or transform some aspect of the game for an extended time?   I just don't think Jeter ever did that.   He was a very good player who stayed healthy and contributing on a dominant team in baseball's biggest market.   Nothing wrong with that.   Just doesn't rise to HoF for me.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Jeter One Vote Short of Unanimous First Ballot Entry to HOF
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2020, 10:41:36 AM »

Offline mmmmm

  • NCE
  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5308
  • Tommy Points: 862
The HOF is ridiculous. Way too many mediocre players, and more gain traction every year.

Omar Vizquel is likely to be a Hall of Famer, but Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds and plenty of others aren’t.

Yeah, seems to be across sports too.
not really. Sure some mediocre players get in in other sports but everyone who should be in is

I was referencing the mediocre player thing which is absolutely the case across sports.

The Bonds/Clemens/etc quandary really seems to be unique to baseball for obvious reasons.
it isn't just steroids though.  Shoeless Joe isn't in.  Rose isn't in.  etc.

Edit: and it isn't just gambling either.  Some of the greatest players at their position or their generation aren't in.  Lou Whitaker, Dick Allen, Jack Morris, Jim Rice, Roger Maris, Trevor Hoffman, etc.  And you can make arguments as to why none of them are, but they just ring hollow.

Jack Morris, Trevor Hoffman, & Jim Rice are all in the HOF.
my bad, site I was using didn't show them in the HOF.  Doesn't change some of the others and the fact the veteran committee had to put Rice and Morris in is a travesty.  Should have been voted in by the writers. 

MLB writers are awful.  They need new ones badly on the HOF committee.
Having some trouble with actual facts today, Moranis? Rice was voted in by the BBWAA not the Eras Committee.
must be and yep 412 ballots in 2009.  I guess I should just go to bed and try again tomorrow.
try again tomorrow because Dick Allen, Lou Whitaker and Roger Maris, while very good players, should not be in the Hall.

For years, I always thought Maris should be in.  A 2x MVP who held one of the most revered single season records of all time that stood for almost 40 years, how could you not put him in?  That's 3 of the highest single season accomplishments, which is probably 2-3 more than most of the Hall.

Though thinking about it now, I think I finally get it.  Let's say Derrick Rose was healthier in '12 and won a 2nd MVP award that year after scoring 101 points in a single game, and the rest of his career played out the same way, I don't think I'd be putting him in the HOF either.

(Or would averaging 51ppg be more equivalent to 61 home runs, rather than scoring 101 in a game?)

Either way, I think I finally get Maris not being in the Hall.

I'm surprised no one in this sequence has talked about Phil Rizzuto yet ...
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Jeter One Vote Short of Unanimous First Ballot Entry to HOF
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2020, 10:53:39 AM »

Offline bdm860

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5952
  • Tommy Points: 4586
FWIW, and I know no one cares about my opinion, but I wouldn't vote Jeter into the HOF, myself.

My criteria is that a player should have dominated or transformed some aspect of the game for an extended period.   Was the player ever one of the overall best players in baseball?  Was he ever the best at his position in baseball for an extended period?  Was he ever one of the best hitters in baseball for an extended period?

Jeter stayed healthy and has some impressive inning, game and plate appearance totals (and some seasons with large counting totals as a result).  And his teams were so dominant that he played in a ton of post-season innings as well.   So kudos for staying healthy, and being a well-above average player on a dominant team in baseball's biggest market.

If that's enough for others to vote him in, that's fine.  I just don't agree.  *shrug*

Interesting. Are you saying he wouldn't get your vote on first ballot, or ever?

Probably not ever.  Again, just based on my own criteria.   Did the player dominate or transform some aspect of the game for an extended time?   I just don't think Jeter ever did that.   He was a very good player who stayed healthy and contributing on a dominant team in baseball's biggest market.   Nothing wrong with that.   Just doesn't rise to HoF for me.

Out of curiosity what other players would be excluded from the mmmmm HOF?  Not talking guys that barely make it in, like Larry Walker, but the guys that have seemingly almost universal approval that aren't good enough for your Hall?

Wouldn't mind hearing your most controversial baseball and basketball snubs.


After 18 months with their Bigs, the Littles were: 46% less likely to use illegal drugs, 27% less likely to use alcohol, 52% less likely to skip school, 37% less likely to skip a class

Re: Jeter One Vote Short of Unanimous First Ballot Entry to HOF
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2020, 10:57:25 AM »

Offline nickagneta

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 48120
  • Tommy Points: 8794
  • President of Jaylen Brown Fan Club
5m, are your thoughts the same for basketball? Because if I had to select a basketball equivalent to Jeter, it would be John Havlicek.

Did Hondo dominate or transform some aspect of the game for an extended time?  Nope. Never even a top 3 in MVP voting like Jeter was. But he was healthy a long time and because of that put up some amazing all-time numbers and was a key or THE key in several championships.

And all that matters. Hondo was never just an above average player, and neither is Jeter. He was THE key to several titles. He put up all-time numbers in a couple areas. His extremely high quality to great, all around game spanned a long, long time.

Players like Koufax and Pedro got in because they were all-time great and dominant over a short time, 7 years or so. But most MLB players get in for being high quality for a very long time and putting up all-time numbers.

Hondo definitely deserves his HOF induction and so will Jeter.

Re: Jeter One Vote Short of Unanimous First Ballot Entry to HOF
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2020, 11:04:25 AM »

Online Donoghus

  • Global Moderator
  • Bill Russell
  • ******************************
  • Posts: 30937
  • Tommy Points: 1607
  • What a Pub Should Be
The HOF is ridiculous. Way too many mediocre players, and more gain traction every year.

Omar Vizquel is likely to be a Hall of Famer, but Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds and plenty of others aren’t.

Yeah, seems to be across sports too.
not really. Sure some mediocre players get in in other sports but everyone who should be in is

I was referencing the mediocre player thing which is absolutely the case across sports.

The Bonds/Clemens/etc quandary really seems to be unique to baseball for obvious reasons.
it isn't just steroids though.  Shoeless Joe isn't in.  Rose isn't in.  etc.

Edit: and it isn't just gambling either.  Some of the greatest players at their position or their generation aren't in.  Lou Whitaker, Dick Allen, Jack Morris, Jim Rice, Roger Maris, Trevor Hoffman, etc.  And you can make arguments as to why none of them are, but they just ring hollow.

Jack Morris, Trevor Hoffman, & Jim Rice are all in the HOF.
my bad, site I was using didn't show them in the HOF.  Doesn't change some of the others and the fact the veteran committee had to put Rice and Morris in is a travesty.  Should have been voted in by the writers. 

MLB writers are awful.  They need new ones badly on the HOF committee.
Having some trouble with actual facts today, Moranis? Rice was voted in by the BBWAA not the Eras Committee.
must be and yep 412 ballots in 2009.  I guess I should just go to bed and try again tomorrow.
try again tomorrow because Dick Allen, Lou Whitaker and Roger Maris, while very good players, should not be in the Hall.

For years, I always thought Maris should be in.  A 2x MVP who held one of the most revered single season records of all time that stood for almost 40 years, how could you not put him in?  That's 3 of the highest single season accomplishments, which is probably 2-3 more than most of the Hall.

Though thinking about it now, I think I finally get it.  Let's say Derrick Rose was healthier in '12 and won a 2nd MVP award that year after scoring 101 points in a single game, and the rest of his career played out the same way, I don't think I'd be putting him in the HOF either.

(Or would averaging 51ppg be more equivalent to 61 home runs, rather than scoring 101 in a game?)

Either way, I think I finally get Maris not being in the Hall.

I'm surprised no one in this sequence has talked about Phil Rizzuto yet ...

One of many of the aforementioned "mediocre" players in the HOF that probably shouldn't be in.


2010 CB Historical Draft - Best Overall Team

Re: Jeter One Vote Short of Unanimous First Ballot Entry to HOF
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2020, 11:04:42 AM »

Online Moranis

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33461
  • Tommy Points: 1533
The HOF is ridiculous. Way too many mediocre players, and more gain traction every year.

Omar Vizquel is likely to be a Hall of Famer, but Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds and plenty of others aren’t.

Yeah, seems to be across sports too.
not really. Sure some mediocre players get in in other sports but everyone who should be in is

I was referencing the mediocre player thing which is absolutely the case across sports.

The Bonds/Clemens/etc quandary really seems to be unique to baseball for obvious reasons.
it isn't just steroids though.  Shoeless Joe isn't in.  Rose isn't in.  etc.

Edit: and it isn't just gambling either.  Some of the greatest players at their position or their generation aren't in.  Lou Whitaker, Dick Allen, Jack Morris, Jim Rice, Roger Maris, Trevor Hoffman, etc.  And you can make arguments as to why none of them are, but they just ring hollow.

Jack Morris, Trevor Hoffman, & Jim Rice are all in the HOF.
my bad, site I was using didn't show them in the HOF.  Doesn't change some of the others and the fact the veteran committee had to put Rice and Morris in is a travesty.  Should have been voted in by the writers. 

MLB writers are awful.  They need new ones badly on the HOF committee.
Having some trouble with actual facts today, Moranis? Rice was voted in by the BBWAA not the Eras Committee.
must be and yep 412 ballots in 2009.  I guess I should just go to bed and try again tomorrow.
try again tomorrow because Dick Allen, Lou Whitaker and Roger Maris, while very good players, should not be in the Hall.
Dick Allen was arguably the best player in the game for a decade.  His MVP season in 72 is one of the better seasons in league history as he led the league in HR's, RBI's, BB, OBP, SLG, OPS, OPS+, and finished 3rd in BA.  He was excellent defensively his entire career.  His Adjusted OPS is 19th all time (tied with Willie Mays and Frank Thomas).  His WAR is 131st all time ahead of a bunch of players in the HOF.  He happened to play in the dead area between great eras, but Dick Allen absolutely should be in the HOF.

Whitaker I have less issue with, but he was one of the best 2B in league history and his WAR is superb.  He has a WAR of 75.1, that would be 7th best among 2B ever (the top 6 are all in the HOF) and the average HOF 2B has a WAR of 69.4 (so Whitaker is well above average).  That 75.1 WAR is the 4th best WAR that is not in the HOF (Bonds, Rose, and Dahlen are the only better) and is 49th all time.  Larry Walker who just got in has a WAR of 72.7.  I get that WAR isn't a perfect stat, but it is the one that is most commonly used to compare players of different eras. 

Maris is definitely an interesting case given the shortness of his career (especially by games played).  That said not many players have back-to-back MVP's.  then couple that with his HR record and an easy case could be made for him being in the HOF.  His greatness was superb, though short lived.  I'd rather have greatness that is shortlived over a player that just played for a very long time, but never reached the peak of Maris (at least in my HOF). 
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip