Author Topic: Is Kelly O getting bought out?  (Read 4893 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Is Kelly O getting bought out?
« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2022, 11:48:11 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11225
  • Tommy Points: 860
So, hindsight being what it is...  If we had offered the better of our 2023 HOU / POR second rounders, would Detroit have traded us KO when we still had the TPE?

I don’t think they would have.  They had the tax space and want to be more competitive this year, which is why they went for Bogs on the cheap.  A $12 million TPE was less useful to them than KO’s largely expiring salary that could take back $17 million on its own and more in aggregation.

This is why they still haven’t cut Kemba, also.  They’re hopeful to use his salary in a trade.

Yeah, I see this trade confirming just the opposite, that Detroit had no intention of just "dumping" Olynyk.  They got a starting caliber wing who can put up 17-20 points for them with decent efficiency.  How do you get from that to they would have taken a second round pick if we had just asked and weren't so cheap?

I think this is the flaw in the ongoing critique that we should have just traded with the Fournier TPE.  It assumes that a useful player like Olynyk is available for nothing more than a second round pick.  Maybe there were deals like this on the table that the Celtics passed on but there is no way to know and to me, it seems doubtful.  A second round pick and a TPE may get you a marginally useful player on a bad contract, but not usually a useful player on a decent contract.

Re: Is Kelly O getting bought out?
« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2022, 12:26:51 PM »

Offline sgrogan

  • Jaylen Brown
  • Posts: 744
  • Tommy Points: 25
So, hindsight being what it is...  If we had offered the better of our 2023 HOU / POR second rounders, would Detroit have traded us KO when we still had the TPE?

I don’t think they would have.  They had the tax space and want to be more competitive this year, which is why they went for Bogs on the cheap.  A $12 million TPE was less useful to them than KO’s largely expiring salary that could take back $17 million on its own and more in aggregation.

This is why they still haven’t cut Kemba, also.  They’re hopeful to use his salary in a trade.

Yeah, I see this trade confirming just the opposite, that Detroit had no intention of just "dumping" Olynyk.  They got a starting caliber wing who can put up 17-20 points for them with decent efficiency.  How do you get from that to they would have taken a second round pick if we had just asked and weren't so cheap?

I think this is the flaw in the ongoing critique that we should have just traded with the Fournier TPE.  It assumes that a useful player like Olynyk is available for nothing more than a second round pick.  Maybe there were deals like this on the table that the Celtics passed on but there is no way to know and to me, it seems doubtful.  A second round pick and a TPE may get you a marginally useful player on a bad contract, but not usually a useful player on a decent contract.
The idea didn't seem so far fetched back in April
https://forum.celticsstrong.com/index.php?topic=106475.15

Re: Is Kelly O getting bought out?
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2022, 01:29:38 PM »

Online Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 58539
  • Tommy Points: -25636
  • Bo Knows: Joe Don't Know Diddley
Quote
I think this is the flaw in the ongoing critique that we should have just traded with the Fournier TPE.  It assumes that a useful player like Olynyk is available for nothing more than a second round pick.  Maybe there were deals like this on the table that the Celtics passed on but there is no way to know and to me, it seems doubtful.  A second round pick and a TPE may get you a marginally useful player on a bad contract, but not usually a useful player on a decent contract.

The Knicks paid the Pistons to take on the contracts of Kemba, Noel and Burks.

You don't think we could have gotten at least a cost-neutral trade for Burks?  Or, gotten paid to take on one of the Knicks other players?

The Knicks traded Kemba + the 13th pick in the draft for Milwaukee's 2025 #1.  You wouldn't have done that deal?  We get a $9 million expiring, keep an $8 million TPE, and get the 13th pick in the draft?


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: Is Kelly O getting bought out?
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2022, 01:30:47 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11225
  • Tommy Points: 860
Detroit got Bojan Bogdanovic for Olynyk.  Isn't that comparable to say Derrick White?  So we could have traded Derrick White for Olynyk and Saben Lee.  How is it that people seem to be so sure that we could have gotten Olynyk for a second round pick?  Maybe a first round pick.  People howled that we gave up a pick in the Derrick White deal, still complain that we gave up a pick in the Horford deal, so I am not sure how popular it would be to trade a pick for Olynyk.

Re: Is Kelly O getting bought out?
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2022, 01:32:26 PM »

Online Celtics2021

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7142
  • Tommy Points: 979
Quote
I think this is the flaw in the ongoing critique that we should have just traded with the Fournier TPE.  It assumes that a useful player like Olynyk is available for nothing more than a second round pick.  Maybe there were deals like this on the table that the Celtics passed on but there is no way to know and to me, it seems doubtful.  A second round pick and a TPE may get you a marginally useful player on a bad contract, but not usually a useful player on a decent contract.

The Knicks paid the Pistons to take on the contracts of Kemba, Noel and Burks.

You don't think we could have gotten at least a cost-neutral trade for Burks?  Or, gotten paid to take on one of the Knicks other players?

Those were draft night trades, and we definitely weren’t going to use the TPE that way at that point in time.  Once we acquired Brogdon, yes, such deals should have been in play, but not before then.

Re: Is Kelly O getting bought out?
« Reply #35 on: September 27, 2022, 02:18:32 PM »

Offline nickagneta

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 48120
  • Tommy Points: 8794
  • President of Jaylen Brown Fan Club
Quote
I think this is the flaw in the ongoing critique that we should have just traded with the Fournier TPE.  It assumes that a useful player like Olynyk is available for nothing more than a second round pick.  Maybe there were deals like this on the table that the Celtics passed on but there is no way to know and to me, it seems doubtful.  A second round pick and a TPE may get you a marginally useful player on a bad contract, but not usually a useful player on a decent contract.

The Knicks paid the Pistons to take on the contracts of Kemba, Noel and Burks.

You don't think we could have gotten at least a cost-neutral trade for Burks?  Or, gotten paid to take on one of the Knicks other players?

Those were draft night trades, and we definitely weren’t going to use the TPE that way at that point in time.  Once we acquired Brogdon, yes, such deals should have been in play, but not before then.
Kemba was draft night but didn't the Noel and Burks trade get announced in mid July. If so, how good would it be to have grabbed Nerlens Noel, assuming he is healthy this coming year.

Re: Is Kelly O getting bought out?
« Reply #36 on: September 27, 2022, 02:27:54 PM »

Online Moranis

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33461
  • Tommy Points: 1533
Quote
I think this is the flaw in the ongoing critique that we should have just traded with the Fournier TPE.  It assumes that a useful player like Olynyk is available for nothing more than a second round pick.  Maybe there were deals like this on the table that the Celtics passed on but there is no way to know and to me, it seems doubtful.  A second round pick and a TPE may get you a marginally useful player on a bad contract, but not usually a useful player on a decent contract.

The Knicks paid the Pistons to take on the contracts of Kemba, Noel and Burks.

You don't think we could have gotten at least a cost-neutral trade for Burks?  Or, gotten paid to take on one of the Knicks other players?

Those were draft night trades, and we definitely weren’t going to use the TPE that way at that point in time.  Once we acquired Brogdon, yes, such deals should have been in play, but not before then.
If Boston could have obtained the 13th pick in the draft for some future likely poor draft pick, I don't see how that wasn't a good move at any time, even at the draft.  Especially since they didn't need the TPE to get the salary to acquire someone like Brogdon.  I get you don't know if Brogdon is available, but having a lottery pick right now for basically free, would be a tremendous boost to the bench. 
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Is Kelly O getting bought out?
« Reply #37 on: September 27, 2022, 02:29:23 PM »

Online Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 58539
  • Tommy Points: -25636
  • Bo Knows: Joe Don't Know Diddley
Quote
I think this is the flaw in the ongoing critique that we should have just traded with the Fournier TPE.  It assumes that a useful player like Olynyk is available for nothing more than a second round pick.  Maybe there were deals like this on the table that the Celtics passed on but there is no way to know and to me, it seems doubtful.  A second round pick and a TPE may get you a marginally useful player on a bad contract, but not usually a useful player on a decent contract.

The Knicks paid the Pistons to take on the contracts of Kemba, Noel and Burks.

You don't think we could have gotten at least a cost-neutral trade for Burks?  Or, gotten paid to take on one of the Knicks other players?

Those were draft night trades, and we definitely weren’t going to use the TPE that way at that point in time.  Once we acquired Brogdon, yes, such deals should have been in play, but not before then.
Kemba was draft night but didn't the Noel and Burks trade get announced in mid July. If so, how good would it be to have grabbed Nerlens Noel, assuming he is healthy this coming year.

From what Brogdon says, the trade quickly came together on June 30.  At least that's when he was brought into the conversations.

I think the Noels / Burks trade was agreed to on June 29, although not official until later.


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: Is Kelly O getting bought out?
« Reply #38 on: September 27, 2022, 02:47:37 PM »

Offline nickagneta

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 48120
  • Tommy Points: 8794
  • President of Jaylen Brown Fan Club
Quote
I think this is the flaw in the ongoing critique that we should have just traded with the Fournier TPE.  It assumes that a useful player like Olynyk is available for nothing more than a second round pick.  Maybe there were deals like this on the table that the Celtics passed on but there is no way to know and to me, it seems doubtful.  A second round pick and a TPE may get you a marginally useful player on a bad contract, but not usually a useful player on a decent contract.

The Knicks paid the Pistons to take on the contracts of Kemba, Noel and Burks.

You don't think we could have gotten at least a cost-neutral trade for Burks?  Or, gotten paid to take on one of the Knicks other players?

Those were draft night trades, and we definitely weren’t going to use the TPE that way at that point in time.  Once we acquired Brogdon, yes, such deals should have been in play, but not before then.
Kemba was draft night but didn't the Noel and Burks trade get announced in mid July. If so, how good would it be to have grabbed Nerlens Noel, assuming he is healthy this coming year.

From what Brogdon says, the trade quickly came together on June 30.  At least that's when he was brought into the conversations.

I think the Noels / Burks trade was agreed to on June 29, although not official until later.
Both still could have been done if price was no problem. The TPE was still in effect on June 29. The Celtics could still have offered something good with picks to land Noel. Those 2 high 2nds they have from other teams might have worked

Re: Is Kelly O getting bought out?
« Reply #39 on: September 27, 2022, 02:52:26 PM »

Offline liam

  • NCE
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 43394
  • Tommy Points: 3150
Quote
I think this is the flaw in the ongoing critique that we should have just traded with the Fournier TPE.  It assumes that a useful player like Olynyk is available for nothing more than a second round pick.  Maybe there were deals like this on the table that the Celtics passed on but there is no way to know and to me, it seems doubtful.  A second round pick and a TPE may get you a marginally useful player on a bad contract, but not usually a useful player on a decent contract.

The Knicks paid the Pistons to take on the contracts of Kemba, Noel and Burks.

You don't think we could have gotten at least a cost-neutral trade for Burks?  Or, gotten paid to take on one of the Knicks other players?

Those were draft night trades, and we definitely weren’t going to use the TPE that way at that point in time.  Once we acquired Brogdon, yes, such deals should have been in play, but not before then.
If Boston could have obtained the 13th pick in the draft for some future likely poor draft pick, I don't see how that wasn't a good move at any time, even at the draft.  Especially since they didn't need the TPE to get the salary to acquire someone like Brogdon.  I get you don't know if Brogdon is available, but having a lottery pick right now for basically free, would be a tremendous boost to the bench.

Who would we have gotten with 13 this year?

Re: Is Kelly O getting bought out?
« Reply #40 on: September 27, 2022, 03:25:26 PM »

Online Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 58539
  • Tommy Points: -25636
  • Bo Knows: Joe Don't Know Diddley
Quote
I think this is the flaw in the ongoing critique that we should have just traded with the Fournier TPE.  It assumes that a useful player like Olynyk is available for nothing more than a second round pick.  Maybe there were deals like this on the table that the Celtics passed on but there is no way to know and to me, it seems doubtful.  A second round pick and a TPE may get you a marginally useful player on a bad contract, but not usually a useful player on a decent contract.

The Knicks paid the Pistons to take on the contracts of Kemba, Noel and Burks.

You don't think we could have gotten at least a cost-neutral trade for Burks?  Or, gotten paid to take on one of the Knicks other players?

Those were draft night trades, and we definitely weren’t going to use the TPE that way at that point in time.  Once we acquired Brogdon, yes, such deals should have been in play, but not before then.
If Boston could have obtained the 13th pick in the draft for some future likely poor draft pick, I don't see how that wasn't a good move at any time, even at the draft.  Especially since they didn't need the TPE to get the salary to acquire someone like Brogdon.  I get you don't know if Brogdon is available, but having a lottery pick right now for basically free, would be a tremendous boost to the bench.

Who would we have gotten with 13 this year?

Duran, just like Detroit.


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: Is Kelly O getting bought out?
« Reply #41 on: September 27, 2022, 03:36:38 PM »

Online Moranis

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33461
  • Tommy Points: 1533
Quote
I think this is the flaw in the ongoing critique that we should have just traded with the Fournier TPE.  It assumes that a useful player like Olynyk is available for nothing more than a second round pick.  Maybe there were deals like this on the table that the Celtics passed on but there is no way to know and to me, it seems doubtful.  A second round pick and a TPE may get you a marginally useful player on a bad contract, but not usually a useful player on a decent contract.

The Knicks paid the Pistons to take on the contracts of Kemba, Noel and Burks.

You don't think we could have gotten at least a cost-neutral trade for Burks?  Or, gotten paid to take on one of the Knicks other players?

Those were draft night trades, and we definitely weren’t going to use the TPE that way at that point in time.  Once we acquired Brogdon, yes, such deals should have been in play, but not before then.
If Boston could have obtained the 13th pick in the draft for some future likely poor draft pick, I don't see how that wasn't a good move at any time, even at the draft.  Especially since they didn't need the TPE to get the salary to acquire someone like Brogdon.  I get you don't know if Brogdon is available, but having a lottery pick right now for basically free, would be a tremendous boost to the bench.

Who would we have gotten with 13 this year?

Duran, just like Detroit.
Maybe.  There were several options, especially pre-Brogdon trade with more roster open spots.
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Is Kelly O getting bought out?
« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2022, 08:10:21 PM »

Offline shake603

  • Oshae Brissett
  • Posts: 68
  • Tommy Points: 13
Quote
I think this is the flaw in the ongoing critique that we should have just traded with the Fournier TPE.  It assumes that a useful player like Olynyk is available for nothing more than a second round pick.  Maybe there were deals like this on the table that the Celtics passed on but there is no way to know and to me, it seems doubtful.  A second round pick and a TPE may get you a marginally useful player on a bad contract, but not usually a useful player on a decent contract.

The Knicks paid the Pistons to take on the contracts of Kemba, Noel and Burks.

You don't think we could have gotten at least a cost-neutral trade for Burks?  Or, gotten paid to take on one of the Knicks other players?

Those were draft night trades, and we definitely weren’t going to use the TPE that way at that point in time.  Once we acquired Brogdon, yes, such deals should have been in play, but not before then.
If Boston could have obtained the 13th pick in the draft for some future likely poor draft pick, I don't see how that wasn't a good move at any time, even at the draft.  Especially since they didn't need the TPE to get the salary to acquire someone like Brogdon.  I get you don't know if Brogdon is available, but having a lottery pick right now for basically free, would be a tremendous boost to the bench.

Who would we have gotten with 13 this year?

Tari Eason would have been the pick.  I can't prove it but he's the one.  I think even on draft night there were rumors we were moving up for him. 

Re: Is Kelly O getting bought out?
« Reply #43 on: September 28, 2022, 05:16:37 PM »

Offline Big333223

  • NCE
  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7489
  • Tommy Points: 741
Quote
I think this is the flaw in the ongoing critique that we should have just traded with the Fournier TPE.  It assumes that a useful player like Olynyk is available for nothing more than a second round pick.  Maybe there were deals like this on the table that the Celtics passed on but there is no way to know and to me, it seems doubtful.  A second round pick and a TPE may get you a marginally useful player on a bad contract, but not usually a useful player on a decent contract.

The Knicks paid the Pistons to take on the contracts of Kemba, Noel and Burks.

You don't think we could have gotten at least a cost-neutral trade for Burks?  Or, gotten paid to take on one of the Knicks other players?

The Knicks traded Kemba + the 13th pick in the draft for Milwaukee's 2025 #1.  You wouldn't have done that deal?  We get a $9 million expiring, keep an $8 million TPE, and get the 13th pick in the draft?
Of all the names that get thrown around to have used the Fournier TPE on, Noel is the only one that really piques my interest as someone who I think would have an obvious role and would've been worth it.
1957, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1968, 1969, 1974, 1976, 1981, 1984, 1986, 2008