Cavs, Knicks ,C's blockbuster in the works?(NY Daily News)

[crimson_stallion]

that may be. but that is not the way it worked out for love. basically, love became the third option and stands around in the corner to shoot a three much of the time.

melo is not about to become 3rd option on any team.

That's because this is what Love is. 

Love is a big man who just wants to stand on the perimeter and shoot threes.  That's what he's been for about the past four years - a stretch four.  Ever since the 2012/13 season, one third of all Love's field goal attempts have been threes.   

Looking at how Brad Stevens has been using Sully the past couple of years, I doubt it would that would change much if he came to Boston.  He'd still stand around the perimeter shooting thees - just that he'd be shooting more of them, more frequently.

Kevin Love is a good player, and if he's your #2 or #3 option, in the correct system, then you can go far. 

The problem is exactly that. 

1) He has to be your #2 or #3 option in order for you to be successful, because he's not good enough anymore (or a natural enough a leader) to carry you as your #1 guy.  We have already seen clear proof of that based on his time in Minnesota.   

2) He has to be in the correct system to be make a real difference - we already have proof of that too, based on his time in Cleveland. 

Kevin Love is somewhat of a paradox. 

For him to excel individually (i.e. put up All-Star numbers) he needs to be in a #1 role where he can take a million shots and have the ball 24-7.  For a team to excel WITH Love, he needs to be in a #2 or #3 role where he doesn't take a million shots and doesn't have the ball 24-7.

Melo is nothing like Kevin Love. 

Melo is a clear alpha-dog.  He carried his teams to the playoffs for 10 straight seasons, from 2003/04 (his rookie year, at 10 years old) until 2012/13...and in every one of those years he was clearly the best player on his team.  Melo is a competitor and a winner, but he's only ever been on good (rather than great) teams, and as a result he's never really made a strong run at a title. 

Melo led his Nuggest to the playoffs in 2003/04 as a rookie averaging 21/6/3, when the next best players on the team were Andre Miller (15/6/5), Voshon Lenard (14/2/3) and Nene Hilario (12/6/2). 

Love couldn't lead his Timberwolves to the playoffs in 2013/14 as a 6 year veteran averaging 26/13/4, when the next best players were Kevin Martin (19/3/3), Nikola Pekovic (18/9) and Ricky Rubio (10/9/4).

Love is a good player, but he's not a franchise player - he's not that "#1 go-to guy".  Which would be perfectly find if not for the fact that he's being paid like one - for a really long time.

Melo IS a franchise player, and he IS a "#1 go-to guy".  He's on the decline and is not quite the player he was a couple of years ago, no denying that.  But he still has the heart and the killer instinct, and the ability to take over games on a fairly consistent basis.  He's still a guy that every opposing team needs to gameplan against every time they face him. 

I'm not sure Love falls in that same category anymore.

[crimson_stallion]

Do people actually believe what the players say?

Exactly. Because if he doesn't say that, he gets labeled a whiner and a locker room cancer.

I still think that trade is a long shot at best, but I wouldn't put credence into anything anyone says.

TP to both.

Also, I'm p shocked at how many ppl think giving up Lee and the Brooklyn pick for Love is a bad deal.

Cleveland got Kevin Love for a #1 pick (Wiggins) plus garbage (Bennett) when Love was on a $16M contract, was healthy, and was coming off a 26/13/4 season.

This Brooklyn pick is almost as valuable as Wiggins (not quite, but close), Lee is more valuable than Bennett (productive player on a large, expiring contract), Kevin Love is half the player he was then, is injured (again) and is on a $100m contract.

Giving up similar value now to what Cleveland gave up 3 years ago is a massive overpay.  Love's value is half what it was then, at best.

Do people actually believe what the players say?

Exactly. Because if he doesn't say that, he gets labeled a whiner and a locker room cancer.

I still think that trade is a long shot at best, but I wouldn't put credence into anything anyone says.

Melo is playing well this year, he has deferred greatly to establishing Porzingis and by all accounts has been a good teammate.  His trade value is very high because of this, even though he is 30+ with injuries.

If the right situation comes along Melo will waive his trade clause.  Cleveland is that exact situation.  He has yet to play in any meaningful late-playoff series and his career is winding down.  I think he can contribute well into his late 30s if he stays relatively healthy, because his face-up offensive game and shooting ability will not deteriorate that rapidly.  Pairing up with a playmaker like Lebron will rocket Melo's offensive efficiency and create lots of mismatches where he is paired against slower 4s while the athletic wing defends Lebron.

Melo to Cleveland makes too much sense for him to not waive the no-trade.  If a deal is on the table and he declines to waive it, we will finally know Melo only cares about getting paid and being in NYC, and not about winning.

I kinda agree regarding Melo remaining productive in his 30's.

Melo is a lot like Paul Pierce in that his game is not (and never has been) at all dependant on athleticism.  His size / strength (which doesn't fade with age) is the only physical attribute he depends on.  Other than that his game is completely based on skill (such as footwork, post moves, jump shot, passing skills, rebounding) and basketball IQ.

Pierce was an All-Star at 34, and even at 35 he was still putting up All-Star numbers (19/5/6).  It wasn't until he turned 36 that his game really started to show major decline, and even at that age he was STILL productive. 

I would expect a similar career pattern from Melo as well, meaning he should still have another 4 or 5 years of all-star caliber production left in him.

[chambers]

No, it's a bit extreme to say it would be one of the worst trades in history. It's not like he's trading it for a scrub.

What if They get Simmons and he blows out his knee in summer league and doesn't play again.

What if Ingrams body just can't hold up to playing against the pros and he becomes a light Jeff Green.

What if Love comes over and breaks his foot and is never the same again.

All bad trades in after it happens in hindsight, but we don't know whats going to happen a few months from now.

What if the pick ends up being 5, and it's not good enough. Now we are left with a less potential rookie, and no shot at love because we loose Lee's contract to make it happen.

Some times you just have to grow a pair take the best option at the time and worry about the future when it becomes the present. Plus we still have 2017 and 2018 to add to an older, vetted up Boston team. And the Nets don't look like there are going to get any better, and some of the teams in the East could get much better.

Bottom line, it's a crap shoot.

I don't think it's too extreme. 

I'm not saying it WOULD be one of the worst trades in history, I'm just saying it has the potential to be.  I think that's a fair call.

If you traded the Nets pick for a young star who has been healthy his whole career, who is on a cap friendly deal, then even if something happened and he suffered a career ending injury...you can deal with that knowing that you made the best decision at the time, when the move looked incredibly low risk.

However in the case of a Love trade, the risk is MASSIVE.

1) Love is only 27, yet up until this season he's missed 25% of possible games (one quarter of his entire career) due to injury...and now he is injured yet again.

2) Despite only being 27, his stats in just about every major category (scoring, rebounding, assists, fouls and shooting percentages) have all gotten worse over the past two seasons -  in some cases (scoring, FG%) dramatically worse.

3) He's already forced a trade from one team when he couldn't win there, bringing into question his team loyalty

3) In 7 NBA seasons so far, he has played only four playoff games - in which he's averaged 14 points, 7 rebounds, 2.5 assists and shot 41% against an 8th seed Celtics team that was a clear underdog.   Doesn't exactly show signs of a guy who rises on the big stage.

4) Teammates have gone on record speaking of his lack of leadership skills, meaning you can probably never depend on him to carry your team

5) He's owned $20M a year every year until the day he turns 32

There are a LOT of signs here to indicate that investing in Kevin Love is a very, very, very bad idea. 

On the other hand the only thing you really have to argue FOR the trade is the whole argument of "his numbers only declined because he's playing with Lebron and being used wrong" - which is pure conjecture, and a very weak argument to use as a basis for a deal that could potentially cripple your franchise (financially) for half a decade.
 
So yeah, all things considered, that trade has all the potential to be an absolute disaster in the worst-case scenario...while the best-case scenario is that you get a pretty good / borderline All-Star big man (which is what Love is these days) for the next 5 years at Superstar money.

I would describe this deal as very high risk / medium reward. 

You could get just as much production from a big like Greg Monroe or Derrick Favors for a fraction of the financial cost, and with none of the risk, in which case you have a low risk / medium reward deal, which is (IMHO) much preferable.

I always respect Crim's opinion and I understand that he doesn't want Love. It's a personal choice and opinion and that's fine. I'm on the other side of the spectrum and I think Love would be the perfect fit here. Like I literally couldn't think of a better team/coach for Kevin Love to shine as a 25 point 10 rebound monster surrounded by elite defenders to lessen the pressure on him on that end- and attract other free agents.

So I'll make some counter points because it's only fair IMO

1) The risk is enormous if we draft Simmons or Ingram. The odds are that we don't even draft one of them and it's Jaylen Brown or Kris Dunn.
What's the percentage chance that either of them become as good as Kevin Love? Let alone one of the guys pick #3-#6?

2) his stats have gotten worse because his role has been diminished. Stars are stars because they get to play to their strengths. Love doesn't have that luxury in Cleveland. He's literally the 3rd fiddle behind two ball dominant players. His shot attempts are down, his quality of shots are down, and his usage is down.

3) 4 games is way too small of a sample size, and the same issues arise from point #2. His role has been completely diminished.

4) To me you're blowing this out of proportion. Ricky Rubio makes a few comments before Love is out the door but that doesn't mean Love can't be or isn't a good leader.

5) $20 million of an $89m and subsequenty rising to $107 million cap for a guy that can potentially be a top 10 player is not overly outrageous or dangerous in any way to me.

There aren't many signs there that investing in Love is a bad idea. Your pre existing opinion of Love is what makes these points 'worrying'. To me, they are completely insignificant for the chance to have a top 10-15 player.

I'm not sure why the notion that he's become the 3rd wheel relating to his drop in performance is some kind of weak argument. It's the simple truth. People who don't want Kevin Love hate this argument because it's pretty much the entire reality of the situation.

Guy goes from scoring 26 points 12 rebounds on efficient numbers and becomes the 3rd wheel behind two ball dominant players and his numbers drop. Easy to interpret for me?

The only way this trade is an absolute disaster is if Kevin Love suffers a career ending injury.
You're saying in a best case that he is a 'pretty good/borderline All Star big man' and that Greg Monroe or Derrick Favors are smarter replacements.

The first thing is that Monroe and Favors are never going to be top 10 players. They are never going to be top 20 players. They are never going to average 26 points and 12 rebounds and lead the number one offense in the NBA no matter how bad their teams are.

The second thing is that for Kevin Love to come to Boston, Danny and Brad don't just see him as a 'borderline All Star' big man. They see that he has been a top 10 player in the NBA before and has the potential to be that player again in the proper offensive scheme and with solid defensive help surrounded by guys like Crowder, Smart and Bradley.

In a best case scenario, we get a top 10 NBA player and legitimate superstar on the offensive end, and because of this, this trade isn't a high risk/medium reward (as you say), it's actually a low risk/extremely high reward taking up $20 million a year when the cap is $107+ million (less than 20% of the cap).

Just my opinion.

[Monkhouse]

No, it's a bit extreme to say it would be one of the worst trades in history. It's not like he's trading it for a scrub.

What if They get Simmons and he blows out his knee in summer league and doesn't play again.

What if Ingrams body just can't hold up to playing against the pros and he becomes a light Jeff Green.

What if Love comes over and breaks his foot and is never the same again.

All bad trades in after it happens in hindsight, but we don't know whats going to happen a few months from now.

What if the pick ends up being 5, and it's not good enough. Now we are left with a less potential rookie, and no shot at love because we loose Lee's contract to make it happen.

Some times you just have to grow a pair take the best option at the time and worry about the future when it becomes the present. Plus we still have 2017 and 2018 to add to an older, vetted up Boston team. And the Nets don't look like there are going to get any better, and some of the teams in the East could get much better.

Bottom line, it's a crap shoot.

I don't think it's too extreme. 

I'm not saying it WOULD be one of the worst trades in history, I'm just saying it has the potential to be.  I think that's a fair call.

If you traded the Nets pick for a young star who has been healthy his whole career, who is on a cap friendly deal, then even if something happened and he suffered a career ending injury...you can deal with that knowing that you made the best decision at the time, when the move looked incredibly low risk.

However in the case of a Love trade, the risk is MASSIVE.

1) Love is only 27, yet up until this season he's missed 25% of possible games (one quarter of his entire career) due to injury...and now he is injured yet again.

2) Despite only being 27, his stats in just about every major category (scoring, rebounding, assists, fouls and shooting percentages) have all gotten worse over the past two seasons -  in some cases (scoring, FG%) dramatically worse.

3) He's already forced a trade from one team when he couldn't win there, bringing into question his team loyalty

3) In 7 NBA seasons so far, he has played only four playoff games - in which he's averaged 14 points, 7 rebounds, 2.5 assists and shot 41% against an 8th seed Celtics team that was a clear underdog.   Doesn't exactly show signs of a guy who rises on the big stage.

4) Teammates have gone on record speaking of his lack of leadership skills, meaning you can probably never depend on him to carry your team

5) He's owned $20M a year every year until the day he turns 32

There are a LOT of signs here to indicate that investing in Kevin Love is a very, very, very bad idea. 

On the other hand the only thing you really have to argue FOR the trade is the whole argument of "his numbers only declined because he's playing with Lebron and being used wrong" - which is pure conjecture, and a very weak argument to use as a basis for a deal that could potentially cripple your franchise (financially) for half a decade.
 
So yeah, all things considered, that trade has all the potential to be an absolute disaster in the worst-case scenario...while the best-case scenario is that you get a pretty good / borderline All-Star big man (which is what Love is these days) for the next 5 years at Superstar money.

I would describe this deal as very high risk / medium reward. 

You could get just as much production from a big like Greg Monroe or Derrick Favors for a fraction of the financial cost, and with none of the risk, in which case you have a low risk / medium reward deal, which is (IMHO) much preferable.

I always respect Crim's opinion and I understand that he doesn't want Love. It's a personal choice and opinion and that's fine. I'm on the other side of the spectrum and I think Love would be the perfect fit here. Like I literally couldn't think of a better team/coach for Kevin Love to shine as a 25 point 10 rebound monster surrounded by elite defenders to lessen the pressure on him on that end- and attract other free agents.

So I'll make some counter points because it's only fair IMO

1) The risk is enormous if we draft Simmons or Ingram. The odds are that we don't even draft one of them and it's Jaylen Brown or Kris Dunn.
What's the percentage chance that either of them become as good as Kevin Love? Let alone one of the guys pick #3-#6?

2) his stats have gotten worse because his role has been diminished. Stars are stars because they get to play to their strengths. Love doesn't have that luxury in Cleveland. He's literally the 3rd fiddle behind two ball dominant players. His shot attempts are down, his quality of shots are down, and his usage is down.

3) 4 games is way too small of a sample size, and the same issues arise from point #2. His role has been completely diminished.

4) To me you're blowing this out of proportion. Ricky Rubio makes a few comments before Love is out the door but that doesn't mean Love can't be or isn't a good leader.

5) $20 million of an $89m and subsequenty rising to $107 million cap for a guy that can potentially be a top 10 player is not overly outrageous or dangerous in any way to me.

There aren't many signs there that investing in Love is a bad idea. Your pre existing opinion of Love is what makes these points 'worrying'. To me, they are completely insignificant for the chance to have a top 10-15 player.

I'm not sure why the notion that he's become the 3rd wheel relating to his drop in performance is some kind of weak argument. It's the simple truth. People who don't want Kevin Love hate this argument because it's pretty much the entire reality of the situation.

Guy goes from scoring 26 points 12 rebounds on efficient numbers and becomes the 3rd wheel behind two ball dominant players and his numbers drop. Easy to interpret for me?

The only way this trade is an absolute disaster is if Kevin Love suffers a career ending injury.
You're saying in a best case that he is a 'pretty good/borderline All Star big man' and that Greg Monroe or Derrick Favors are smarter replacements.

The first thing is that Monroe and Favors are never going to be top 10 players. They are never going to be top 20 players. They are never going to average 26 points and 12 rebounds and lead the number one offense in the NBA no matter how bad their teams are.

The second thing is that for Kevin Love to come to Boston, Danny and Brad don't just see him as a 'borderline All Star' big man. They see that he has been a top 10 player in the NBA before and has the potential to be that player again in the proper offensive scheme and with solid defensive help surrounded by guys like Crowder, Smart and Bradley.

In a best case scenario, we get a top 10 NBA player and legitimate superstar on the offensive end, and because of this, this trade isn't a high risk/medium reward (as you say), it's actually a low risk/extremely high reward taking up $20 million a year when the cap is $107+ million (less than 20% of the cap).

Just my opinion.

You literally nailed everything I felt about Love.

TP.

[LilRip]

TP chambers. Thank you for articulating what was on my mind

[ThePaintedArea]

The Daily News has learned that the Boston Celtics and Cleveland Cavaliers have discussed a blockbuster trade centered around Kevin Love. There were very preliminary discussions about expanding the deal to include the Knicks and Anthony, who would have to waive his no-trade clause in order to facilitate a deal to the Cavs.

via daily news
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/isola-melo-veto-deal-send-cavs-article-1.2530306?cid=bitly

Can't see how this makes sense for Cleveland. Melo has not played better than Love, is older, adds shot creation where it isn't needed, has been a worse defensive player... Cleveland should think about Howard - or how about a three-way with Boston and Sacramento?

[LilRip]

The Daily News has learned that the Boston Celtics and Cleveland Cavaliers have discussed a blockbuster trade centered around Kevin Love. There were very preliminary discussions about expanding the deal to include the Knicks and Anthony, who would have to waive his no-trade clause in order to facilitate a deal to the Cavs.

via daily news
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/isola-melo-veto-deal-send-cavs-article-1.2530306?cid=bitly

Can't see how this makes sense for Cleveland. Melo has not played better than Love, is older, adds shot creation where it isn't needed, has been a worse defensive player... Cleveland should think about Howard - or how about a three-way with Boston and Sacramento?

Having Melo allows Cleveland to play small ball and match up pretty well (IMO) against the Warriors. Lebron or Melo at the 4 allows them to keep up with Draymond Green, who is really the X-factor of the Warriors. Imagine a line up of:

Kyrie
Bradley (i'm assuming we give up Bradley, Lee, a couple of 1sts, a couple of 2nds, and maybe Sully for Love and some filler guy who turns out to be a gem from the Knicks or Cavs)
Lebron
Melo
TThompson

If Bogut is in, they can put in Mozgov. Then if they need to, they can go even smaller by playing Lebron at the 5 (similar to how Draymond sometimes plays center as well) and insert Shumpert or Smith at the 3.

[kozlodoev]

The second thing is that for Kevin Love to come to Boston, Danny and Brad don't just see him as a 'borderline All Star' big man. They see that he has been a top 10 player in the NBA before and has the potential to be that player again in the proper offensive scheme and with solid defensive help surrounded by guys like Crowder, Smart and Bradley.

Oh, they do? You must have missed it when Ainge said, "If you take an NBDL team and put it in the NBA, someone will score 18 ppg, and someone will grab 10 rpg."

Massive stats on worthless teams are worthless if you're not really making your team better. I view Love as one of those guys who can put together a massive stat sheet, and fail to carry the team on his back in the process.

[Moranis]

The second thing is that for Kevin Love to come to Boston, Danny and Brad don't just see him as a 'borderline All Star' big man. They see that he has been a top 10 player in the NBA before and has the potential to be that player again in the proper offensive scheme and with solid defensive help surrounded by guys like Crowder, Smart and Bradley.

Oh, they do? You must have missed it when Ainge said, "If you take an NBDL team and put it in the NBA, someone will score 18 ppg, and someone will grab 10 rpg."

Massive stats on worthless teams are worthless if you're not really making your team better. I view Love as one of those guys who can put together a massive stat sheet, and fail to carry the team on his back in the process.

Minnesota went from a 40 win team to a 16 win team the year it lost Love.  Now I'm not saying there weren't other factors, of course there were, but those other factors are a very small portion of the 24 game decrease.  Love was the main reason the team fell off a cliff and ended up as the worst team in the league (yes worse than the Sixers). 

[kozlodoev]

The second thing is that for Kevin Love to come to Boston, Danny and Brad don't just see him as a 'borderline All Star' big man. They see that he has been a top 10 player in the NBA before and has the potential to be that player again in the proper offensive scheme and with solid defensive help surrounded by guys like Crowder, Smart and Bradley.

Oh, they do? You must have missed it when Ainge said, "If you take an NBDL team and put it in the NBA, someone will score 18 ppg, and someone will grab 10 rpg."

Massive stats on worthless teams are worthless if you're not really making your team better. I view Love as one of those guys who can put together a massive stat sheet, and fail to carry the team on his back in the process.

Minnesota went from a 40 win team to a 16 win team the year it lost Love.  Now I'm not saying there weren't other factors, of course there were, but those other factors are a very small portion of the 24 game decrease.  Love was the main reason the team fell off a cliff and ended up as the worst team in the league (yes worse than the Sixers).

They also lost Pekovic for almost an entire season that year.

Before 2014, Minnesota were  a 31, 32 (scaled from a short season), 17, 15, and 24 win team on Love's watch. Ironically, he missed almost the entire 2013 when they were a 31-win team, too.

Let's not pretend that his presence turned the T'wolves in some sort of an average team. He's not that type of difference maker.