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Stat driven league not paying attention to stats
« on: May 05, 2021, 05:30:04 PM »

Offline Ed Monix

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A bit of NBA trivia, how many times has a player won an NBA championship while being in the top 50 usage rates of all-time?
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Re: Stat driven league not paying attention to stats
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2021, 05:44:56 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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Can you even measure usage rates for the first 30 or so years of the NBA?


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Re: Stat driven league not paying attention to stats
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2021, 05:47:46 PM »

Offline Ed Monix

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Can you even measure usage rates for the first 30 or so years of the NBA?

From the information I can find the statistic has been tracked since 1977-78 (1967-68 for ABA)
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Re: Stat driven league not paying attention to stats
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2021, 05:54:57 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Probably not often, because titles teams usually have multiple ball dominant players.  I suspect that many guys with historically high usage rates have won titles in other years of their careers, however.

I’ll guess Jordan.  Maybe Kobe or Wade.



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Re: Stat driven league not paying attention to stats
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2021, 05:59:46 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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Probably not often, because titles teams usually have multiple ball dominant players.

I’ll guess Jordan.  Maybe Kobe or Wade.

See, I was thinking maybe half the titles since '80 would have one.   Lot of dynastic squads that won multiple titles so it'd add up a bit.

EDIT:  Are we talking top 50 single season usage rates or guys who are in the top 50 alltime?


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Re: Stat driven league not paying attention to stats
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2021, 06:00:36 PM »

Offline Ed Monix

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Probably not often, because titles teams usually have multiple ball dominant players.

I’ll guess Jordan.  Maybe Kobe or Wade.

But how many seasons/times has an individual player finished in the 50 highest individual usage rates and won a title?
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Re: Stat driven league not paying attention to stats
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2021, 06:02:15 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Probably not often, because titles teams usually have multiple ball dominant players.

I’ll guess Jordan.  Maybe Kobe or Wade.

See, I was thinking maybe half the titles since '80 would have one.   Lot of dynastic squads that won multiple titles so it'd add up a bit.

EDIT:  Are we talking top 50 single season usage rates or guys who are in the top 50 alltime?

I took it as top 50 single seasons.

Also, the wording is a bit funky.  For instance, when Larry was winning titles he was almost certainly in the top 50 single seasons of all time. Since that time, I suspect that many have surpassed him.


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Re: Stat driven league not paying attention to stats
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2021, 06:04:21 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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Probably not often, because titles teams usually have multiple ball dominant players.

I’ll guess Jordan.  Maybe Kobe or Wade.

See, I was thinking maybe half the titles since '80 would have one.   Lot of dynastic squads that won multiple titles so it'd add up a bit.

EDIT:  Are we talking top 50 single season usage rates or guys who are in the top 50 alltime?

I took it as top 50 single seasons.

Also, the wording is a bit funky.  For instance, when Larry was winning titles he was probably in the top 50 single seasons of all time. Since that time, I suspect that many have surpassed him.

Absolutely.  Especially, if you couldn't track pre '77-78, a boatload of the late 70s/80s guys would seemingly start out in the top 50 of all time by default.


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Re: Stat driven league not paying attention to stats
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2021, 06:17:26 PM »

Offline Ed Monix

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Haha you guys are taking all the fun out of it, poking me with your technicalities lol But I know it’s a flawed statistic, and I should have maybe explained it better.

For the record it’s currently once, Michael Jordan (34.71%) 1992-93 season.

My original point I was going to bring up is that teams in the nba are so currently data driven yet the simplest statistic that you have already assumed would be correct in that sharing the ball will bring success seems to be missed by today’s GM’s & coach’s alike.

With all the passing abilities in the world Doncic already has two seasons ranked in the top twenty usage rates of all time. Morey is revered for his statistical knowledge yet Harden’s 40.47 usage in 18-19 season is second only behind (surprise, surprise) Westbrook for highest recorded player usage
« Last Edit: May 05, 2021, 06:35:08 PM by Ed Monix »
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Re: Stat driven league not paying attention to stats
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2021, 06:19:42 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Speaking of stats, any time we're looking at "how many times has X circumstance resulted in a title win" it's important to acknowledge that you're talking about a sample size of less than 100, which is not very significant.
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Re: Stat driven league not paying attention to stats
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2021, 06:52:21 PM »

Offline Who

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The League's rule changes have made it easier for high usage stars to be effective than they were in the past. So I don't think you can compare today's NBA to previous eras.

What was true then is not necessarily still true today.

Another example of this is the continuing decline in importance of first rebounding and now defense ... all in hail of the almighty offense!

Today's NBA is a beast of it's own. Not like year's past.

Re: Stat driven league not paying attention to stats
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2021, 09:49:31 PM »

Online Moranis

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Haha you guys are taking all the fun out of it, poking me with your technicalities lol But I know it’s a flawed statistic, and I should have maybe explained it better.

For the record it’s currently once, Michael Jordan (34.71%) 1992-93 season.

My original point I was going to bring up is that teams in the nba are so currently data driven yet the simplest statistic that you have already assumed would be correct in that sharing the ball will bring success seems to be missed by today’s GM’s & coach’s alike.

With all the passing abilities in the world Doncic already has two seasons ranked in the top twenty usage rates of all time. Morey is revered for his statistical knowledge yet Harden’s 40.47 usage in 18-19 season is second only behind (surprise, surprise) Westbrook for highest recorded player usage
I'm confused by what you are using as this stat.  Hakeem won the title in 95, that season his USG was 35.86 which is currently 22nd all time (NBA only).  Jordan also won the title in 98 and his 36.59 USG is currently 16th all time.  Jordan won the title in 97 with a USG of 35.53, 29th all time. 
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Re: Stat driven league not paying attention to stats
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2021, 10:28:35 PM »

Offline Muzzy66

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Speaking of stats, any time we're looking at "how many times has X circumstance resulted in a title win" it's important to acknowledge that you're talking about a sample size of less than 100, which is not very significant.

This is a good point.  In many scenarios a sample size < 100 would be considered to small to be reliable.

Re: Stat driven league not paying attention to stats
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2021, 10:40:56 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Haha you guys are taking all the fun out of it, poking me with your technicalities lol But I know it’s a flawed statistic, and I should have maybe explained it better.

For the record it’s currently once, Michael Jordan (34.71%) 1992-93 season.

My original point I was going to bring up is that teams in the nba are so currently data driven yet the simplest statistic that you have already assumed would be correct in that sharing the ball will bring success seems to be missed by today’s GM’s & coach’s alike.

With all the passing abilities in the world Doncic already has two seasons ranked in the top twenty usage rates of all time. Morey is revered for his statistical knowledge yet Harden’s 40.47 usage in 18-19 season is second only behind (surprise, surprise) Westbrook for highest recorded player usage
I'm confused by what you are using as this stat.  Hakeem won the title in 95, that season his USG was 35.86 which is currently 22nd all time (NBA only).  Jordan also won the title in 98 and his 36.59 USG is currently 16th all time.  Jordan won the title in 97 with a USG of 35.53, 29th all time.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-did-basketball-end-up-with-four-versions-and-counting-of-one-stat/


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Re: Stat driven league not paying attention to stats
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2021, 04:37:11 AM »

Offline Kernewek

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From the article:

Quote
ME: “Why do we use Hollinger’s definition of usage instead of Dean Oliver’s?”

JUSTIN: “That’s not Hollinger’s. That’s mine.”

ME: “It’s not what he uses at ESPN? I thought it was the same definition.”

JUSTIN: “No. His multiplies assists by a third.”

ME: “I see. But I guess the question still stands.”

JUSTIN: “Mine is basically percentage of team plays used. What the heck is his actually measuring?”

Ladies and gentlemen, the John Hollinger story.
Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time.

But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.