HOF Class of '21 Finalists Named

[Donoghus]

Including the Truth and Russell as a coach.

[footey]

Both should be no brainers to get in. 

Russell won two NBA championships as HC, was first Black coach of a major sports team I believe. 

I became a fan of Celtics the first season Russ was player- head coach, 1966-67. They lost to Philly that year, but won the next two seasons (both vs Lakers).

[bdm860]

Love Pierce, and of course would love to see him in the Hall, but if he was on any other team I would argue he doesn't have a HOF resume, at least in my book.

No MVPs or DPOY.  Never was a top 5 NBA player.  No 1st Team All-NBA awards, no top 5 MVP finishes.  Never a statistical leader in any major category.  This is the kind of stuff I like to see from my HoFers.  Also no outstanding college or international honors to help boost the resume.

A lot of All-Star games, but definitely helped playing in the East.

Was he ever considered a Top 10 NBA player for any season?  How often was he a top 2 or 3 SF ('02 and '03 on his own, '08 and '09 with KG/Ray maybe, but even in his best years, I don't think his place in the SF hierarchy was clear cut).

Highest awards All-NBA 2nd (1x), FMVP (1x) - just not enough for me.  Though he definitely scores some bonus points for some great clutch playoff performances throughout his career.   Had a nice long run as a top 25 player, but I just want a higher peak for my HoFers.

Pretty much repeat all this for Bosh too.

Personally I think players like Chris Webber and Ben Wallace or more deserving.  Pierce was good longer, but their peaks were longer and higher than Pierce's.

But he has a 99.7% Hall of Fame probability according to bball-reference (and Bosh with 99.5%) so what do I know.

[Roy H.]

Love Pierce, and of course would love to see him in the Hall, but if he was on any other team I would argue he doesn't have a HOF resume, at least in my book.

No MVPs or DPOY.  Never was a top 5 NBA player.  No 1st Team All-NBA awards, no top 5 MVP finishes.  Never a statistical leader in any major category.  This is the kind of stuff I like to see from my HoFers.  Also no outstanding college or international honors to help boost the resume.

A lot of All-Star games, but definitely helped playing in the East.

Was he ever considered a Top 10 NBA player for any season?  How often was he a top 2 or 3 SF ('02 and '03 on his own, '08 and '09 with KG/Ray maybe, but even in his best years, I don't think his place in the SF hierarchy was clear cut).

Highest awards All-NBA 2nd (1x), FMVP (1x) - just not enough for me.  Though he definitely scores some bonus points for some great clutch playoff performances throughout his career.   Had a nice long run as a top 25 player, but I just want a higher peak for my HoFers.

Pretty much repeat all this for Bosh too.

Personally I think players like Chris Webber and Ben Wallace or more deserving.  Pierce was good longer, but their peaks were longer and higher than Pierce's.

But he has a 99.7% Hall of Fame probability according to bball-reference (and Bosh with 99.5%) so what do I know.

Judged by the standards of those already in the HOF, though, Pierce and Bosh clearly belong.  And, both had better careers than Webber (only a 5x All-Star and no Finals appearances).

[Goldstar88]

Love Pierce, and of course would love to see him in the Hall, but if he was on any other team I would argue he doesn't have a HOF resume, at least in my book.

No MVPs or DPOY.  Never was a top 5 NBA player.  No 1st Team All-NBA awards, no top 5 MVP finishes.  Never a statistical leader in any major category.  This is the kind of stuff I like to see from my HoFers.  Also no outstanding college or international honors to help boost the resume.

A lot of All-Star games, but definitely helped playing in the East.

Was he ever considered a Top 10 NBA player for any season?  How often was he a top 2 or 3 SF ('02 and '03 on his own, '08 and '09 with KG/Ray maybe, but even in his best years, I don't think his place in the SF hierarchy was clear cut).

Highest awards All-NBA 2nd (1x), FMVP (1x) - just not enough for me.  Though he definitely scores some bonus points for some great clutch playoff performances throughout his career.   Had a nice long run as a top 25 player, but I just want a higher peak for my HoFers.

Pretty much repeat all this for Bosh too.

Personally I think players like Chris Webber and Ben Wallace or more deserving.  Pierce was good longer, but their peaks were longer and higher than Pierce's.

But he has a 99.7% Hall of Fame probability according to bball-reference (and Bosh with 99.5%) so what do I know.

Pierce was a 10 time All-Star and finals MVP. Second in points scored for a franchise. That’s not enough?

[bdm860]

Love Pierce, and of course would love to see him in the Hall, but if he was on any other team I would argue he doesn't have a HOF resume, at least in my book.

No MVPs or DPOY.  Never was a top 5 NBA player.  No 1st Team All-NBA awards, no top 5 MVP finishes.  Never a statistical leader in any major category.  This is the kind of stuff I like to see from my HoFers.  Also no outstanding college or international honors to help boost the resume.

A lot of All-Star games, but definitely helped playing in the East.

Was he ever considered a Top 10 NBA player for any season?  How often was he a top 2 or 3 SF ('02 and '03 on his own, '08 and '09 with KG/Ray maybe, but even in his best years, I don't think his place in the SF hierarchy was clear cut).

Highest awards All-NBA 2nd (1x), FMVP (1x) - just not enough for me.  Though he definitely scores some bonus points for some great clutch playoff performances throughout his career.   Had a nice long run as a top 25 player, but I just want a higher peak for my HoFers.

Pretty much repeat all this for Bosh too.

Personally I think players like Chris Webber and Ben Wallace or more deserving.  Pierce was good longer, but their peaks were longer and higher than Pierce's.

But he has a 99.7% Hall of Fame probability according to bball-reference (and Bosh with 99.5%) so what do I know.

Judged by the standards of those already in the HOF, though, Pierce and Bosh clearly belong.  And, both had better careers than Webber (only a 5x All-Star and no Finals appearances).

Oh no doubt, they're getting in, this is just my personal view that I know is the minority.

Do you disagree though that peak Webber was better?  I'd take his top 5 seasons (pretty much his Sacto run) over any of Bosh or Pierce's best.

Also there's that whole questionable 2002 series keeping Webber from a Finals appearance.

Personally, and I know I'm in the minority, I think 5 All-NBA awards (1x 1st, 3x 2nd, 1x 3rd) is a greater accomplishment than any number of All-Star games (so more about Bosh with only a sole 2nd team appearance than Pierce with 4 total appearances but three of them being 3rd). Championships are even better sure, but then it gets more complicated trying to divvy out what one contributed when trying to measure individual greatness, but then there's Ben Wallace with multiple Finals appearances + a ring + 4DPOY + 5x All-NBA +5x All-D.

Pierce was a 10 time All-Star and finals MVP. Second in points scored for a franchise. That’s not enough?

I just don't think All-Star selections should be held in such high regard.  I think if you put Pierce or Bosh in the Western Conference, they'd each have fewer selections.

All-Star does a decent job of measuring if your somewhere in the top 30ish of the NBA, with a few mercy invitations sprinkled throughout.

All-NBA does a better job of measuring if you're in the top 15 while also providing tiers (1st, 2nd, 3rd) with fewer and less conspicuous mercy invitations.

While All-Star is nice to have, if it's the main driver on your resume, I don't think that should be enough.  I think HoF should be more exclusive (but it's not, Pierce and Bosh are definitely getting in). 

[mmmmm]

Love Pierce, and of course would love to see him in the Hall, but if he was on any other team I would argue he doesn't have a HOF resume, at least in my book.

No MVPs or DPOY.  Never was a top 5 NBA player.  No 1st Team All-NBA awards, no top 5 MVP finishes.  Never a statistical leader in any major category.  This is the kind of stuff I like to see from my HoFers.  Also no outstanding college or international honors to help boost the resume.

A lot of All-Star games, but definitely helped playing in the East.

Was he ever considered a Top 10 NBA player for any season?  How often was he a top 2 or 3 SF ('02 and '03 on his own, '08 and '09 with KG/Ray maybe, but even in his best years, I don't think his place in the SF hierarchy was clear cut).

Highest awards All-NBA 2nd (1x), FMVP (1x) - just not enough for me.  Though he definitely scores some bonus points for some great clutch playoff performances throughout his career.   Had a nice long run as a top 25 player, but I just want a higher peak for my HoFers.

Pretty much repeat all this for Bosh too.

Personally I think players like Chris Webber and Ben Wallace or more deserving.  Pierce was good longer, but their peaks were longer and higher than Pierce's.

But he has a 99.7% Hall of Fame probability according to bball-reference (and Bosh with 99.5%) so what do I know.

Webber had exactly two seasons of 10+ Win Shares.  Pierce passed that threshold EIGHT times!  Pierce post 5 seasons with greater WS totals than Webber's best season.

And this isn't just about having logged more minutes.  Pierce had a much higher career WS/48 rate (.157 vs .132) and more seasons above .150 (11 vs 6) and more seasons above .200 (2 vs 1).  Pierce was simply more productive per minute by a wide margin.

Pierce's career AND peak were longer and higher than Webber and it isn't really close.

Wallace is a trickier comparison because he was primarily a defensive player.  But I just don't buy the argument that he would be more deserving of an HoF nod over Pierce.  His production numbers showed a longer peak than Webber, but it still is dwarfed by Pierce.   He did have a couple of years with truly elite rebounding and defense.   But I just don't think that's enough to get the nod over the Truth.

[nickagneta]

When you have long careers of sustained excellence, that gets you in the Hall. Pierce, for over a decade, was an amazing player. Being probably in the top 10-20 best players in the league for 10-12 years while leading a team to a title gets you in the Hall.

For what it's worth, I think Webber should have gone in sooner and Big Ben deserves to be there too. Without Wallace that Detroit team that won the title and was excellent for a 4-5 year period, doesn't happen, not with the quality of big men that were in the league at that time

[greg683x]

The fact that Tracy Mcgrady is in and Webber isn’t, boggles my mind

[Moranis]

For Webber's first 13 years he averaged 21.6, 10.1, and 4.4 along with 1.5 steals and 1.5 blocks.  He was super injury prone and moved around a fair amount, which hurt him significantly for things like all star games, All NBA Teams, and other accolades.  He was also the best player on one of the best teams in the world for a 4 year period, and but for some questionable officiating, probably would have been the best player on a NBA champion.   The reality is, Chris Webber should already be in the HOF. 

Ben Wallace is an even clearer case for me.  He is the 3rd best defensive big man in league history (behind only Russell and Rodman) and the 4th best rebounder ever (Bill, Dennis, and Wilt).  He was the best player on an NBA champion.  He won the DPOY 4 times.  He had a 7 year peak of extreme excellence and the middle 5 seasons were at an all time great level.  He is obviously hurt because he didn't score at all and couldn't hit the broad side of the barn from like 5 feet out, but Wallace is a HOFer.

Pierce's absolute apex falls short of both Webber and Wallace, imo, and with that I pause some, but ultimately I think Pierce gets in because of his longevity and overall very goodness with periods of greatness.  There is something to be said for a player that is a top 25 (or better) player for over a decade.    And while he wasn't the best player on a champion, he was the best player on a conference finals team and the 2nd best player on a champion. 

[moiso]

Webber was awesome at his peak, but I'd be reluctant to put him in the hall because he was an absolute deer in headlights if you threw him the ball in the last few minutes of a close game.  Pierce had no fear in those moments.  Webber had no confidence.

[colincb]

Pierce is a 1st ballot lock unless Laker-oriented voters blackball him.

Being the second-highest scorer on arguably the greatest NBA franchise with a clear-cut Finals MVP, a ring, a season as top scorer, 24th in career defensive win shares, and 30th in career offensive win shares, he's the epitome of a great two-way player. 22nd in total career win shares with Magic and West right above him and Parrish and Bird right below him. No one with his numbers has not been inducted.

Bosh likely will get in too since the HOF usually have more than one inductee. Webber hasn't a prayer, Wallace shouldn't be on the ballot over Billups (who was the best player on that Pistons team and is getting snubbed for some reason), and Cooper shouldn't even be under consideration. Overall, not a great group outside of Pierce.

[Moranis]

Pierce is a 1st ballot lock unless Laker-oriented voters blackball him.

Being the second-highest scorer on arguably the greatest NBA franchise with a clear-cut Finals MVP, a ring, a season as top scorer, 24th in career defensive win shares, and 30th in career offensive win shares, he's the epitome of a great two-way player. 22nd in total career win shares with Magic and West right above him and Parrish and Bird right below him. No one with his numbers has not been inducted.

Bosh likely will get in too since the HOF usually have more than one inductee. Webber hasn't a prayer, Wallace shouldn't be on the ballot over Billups (who was the best player on that Pistons team and is getting snubbed for some reason), and Cooper shouldn't even be under consideration. Overall, not a great group outside of Pierce.

I think Pierce is very similar to Tony Parker.  I think they both get in, but I wouldn't consider either in anywhere near the same class as the teammate most responsible for their title(s) and thus wouldn't consider either to be a lock to get in the first ballot.  Certainly wouldn't be surprised if both did, just wouldn't be surprised if it took a time or two to get in as well.

As for Wallace, he was absolutely the most important player to the Pistons success, especially in the two finals appearance seasons.  Billups wasn't the Pistons best player until after those 2 seasons and they never got back because Wallace had tailed off some even in 06 when he got his last DPOY. 2006 was Billups 1st all star appearance and the season he really did rise up to best player on his team status.     

[RMO]

I always wondered if Pierce played an extra year so he wouldn't be in the same, very crowded HOF class as Kobe, Duncan and Garnett.