Author Topic: Kyrie...play a little defense please  (Read 5954 times)

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Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
« Reply #45 on: February 27, 2018, 08:23:05 PM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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Defense is a lot about effort.  Don’t really mind that he’s not putting in the effort because easy to turn on for the playoffs as long as you have the ability, which he does.

You say he can turn it on whenever he wants.  I'd say bad habits are hard to break.  Even if he starts working harder and 'turns on' his effort in the playoff, he won't have the necessary discipline you'd expect.  To be a good defender, not just a few possessions, you need the discipline and experience to make the impact we need to go far. Even he knows this, he just only applies it to his offense.
Well in that case then no use in complaining about because it ain't changing (since his "bad habits" predate the cetlics).

I'm complaining because he was defending for the first 25 games, then he started doing his old thing.  I just want him to hold himself up to his commitment.  I get Hayward went down so there was a front to convince everyone the season wasn't over. Now that adrenaline wore off, he reverted.  For me, it was like saying he acknowledged the team wasn't going all the way.  It may not be the truth and he just is trying to save his energy, but it is still fishy.
It's hard to compete on defense at a high level and carry an offense for the whole year.

Very few players do that.

You can count them on 1 hand.

Major disservice to the guys who do and tend to be the best players in the league.  If you were to step slightly outside the role of "carrying a an offense," there's a whole lot more than five.
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Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
« Reply #46 on: February 27, 2018, 08:29:19 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Defense is a lot about effort.  Don’t really mind that he’s not putting in the effort because easy to turn on for the playoffs as long as you have the ability, which he does.

You say he can turn it on whenever he wants.  I'd say bad habits are hard to break.  Even if he starts working harder and 'turns on' his effort in the playoff, he won't have the necessary discipline you'd expect.  To be a good defender, not just a few possessions, you need the discipline and experience to make the impact we need to go far. Even he knows this, he just only applies it to his offense.
Well in that case then no use in complaining about because it ain't changing (since his "bad habits" predate the cetlics).

I'm complaining because he was defending for the first 25 games, then he started doing his old thing.  I just want him to hold himself up to his commitment.  I get Hayward went down so there was a front to convince everyone the season wasn't over. Now that adrenaline wore off, he reverted.  For me, it was like saying he acknowledged the team wasn't going all the way.  It may not be the truth and he just is trying to save his energy, but it is still fishy.
It's hard to compete on defense at a high level and carry an offense for the whole year.

Very few players do that.

You can count them on 1 hand.

Major disservice to the guys who do -- best players in the league.  There's a whole lot more than five.

Yeah, there may be only five guys who play elite basketball on both ends, but that’s not the issue discussed here. Rather, it’s that Kyrie’s defense is in the bottom 20%.  There’s a big gap between “bottom 20%” and “high level”.

Is there any reason that Kyrie can’t exert enough energy on D to be considered average, or even slightly below average? 


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Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
« Reply #47 on: February 27, 2018, 08:39:36 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Defense is a lot about effort.  Don’t really mind that he’s not putting in the effort because easy to turn on for the playoffs as long as you have the ability, which he does.

You say he can turn it on whenever he wants.  I'd say bad habits are hard to break.  Even if he starts working harder and 'turns on' his effort in the playoff, he won't have the necessary discipline you'd expect.  To be a good defender, not just a few possessions, you need the discipline and experience to make the impact we need to go far. Even he knows this, he just only applies it to his offense.
Well in that case then no use in complaining about because it ain't changing (since his "bad habits" predate the cetlics).

I'm complaining because he was defending for the first 25 games, then he started doing his old thing.  I just want him to hold himself up to his commitment.  I get Hayward went down so there was a front to convince everyone the season wasn't over. Now that adrenaline wore off, he reverted.  For me, it was like saying he acknowledged the team wasn't going all the way.  It may not be the truth and he just is trying to save his energy, but it is still fishy.
It's hard to compete on defense at a high level and carry an offense for the whole year.

Very few players do that.

You can count them on 1 hand.

Major disservice to the guys who do and tend to be the best players in the league.  If you were to step slightly outside the role of "carrying a an offense," there's a whole lot more than five.
More than 5 guys compete hard on defense and carry their offenses like Irving does?

no way.

Steph and Durant both play hard enough on both sides but neither need to carry that offense. They can split that burden. Paul George is a really good offensive player and he competes on D but he doesnt carry that offense.

I'd say Embiid and AD probably do it, but I think it's different as a big. They dont have to work nearly as hard on either side of the ball to have an impact. I dont watch enough Giannis to know if his defensive workrate is good or if he just coasts off his massive length.

After that, I really cant think of many people. Wall's defensive workrate is bad. Kawhi's was good, but he's not even playing right now. James doesnt really try on D. Jimmy Butler was one of the guys who did, but even he didnt have nearly the offensive responsibilities of Kyrie.

After that you've got who else? Oladipo?

There just arent that many guys who can work as hard as Kyrie has to work on offense then turn around and compete at a high level on defense. It's just one of the drawbacks of smaller guys.

A giannis, or a KD, or an AD can relax on defense and still by ++ players. Point gaurds generally can't. I think if Hayward was healthy, you could demand a lot more from Kyrie, but the #2 option on this team right now is Jaylen Brown. Kyrie has to create a ton and is the sole focus of defenses. Its the same reason IT's defensive workrate was pretty bad last year. Same reason Russ didnt play D last year. Same reason Lebron doesnt play D in the regular season any more. It's virtually impossible to be tasked with that level of offensive creation and still really compete on defense for a full year.

Plenty of guys do it for the playoffs, a small handful do it for 82 games.
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Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
« Reply #48 on: February 27, 2018, 09:02:16 PM »

Offline moiso

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I’m not sure how we can judge how much effort someone puts forth on offense.  The teams highest scorer always tries the hardest on that end?  I think that’s ridiculous.  A portion of what Kyrie does on offense looks effortless to me.  Someone like Rozier appears to expend 3x more energy on offense than Irving.

Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
« Reply #49 on: February 27, 2018, 09:04:20 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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I’m not sure how we can judge how much effort someone puts forth on offense.  The teams highest scorer always tries the hardest on that end?  I think that’s ridiculous.  A portion of what Kyrie does on offense looks effortless to me.  Someone like Rozier appears to expend 3x more energy on offense than Irving.
per possesion perhaps. Irving's usage rate is 31 to Rozier's 20 and he plays 33 mpg to Rozier's 24.

Irving has the 9th highest usage rate in the entire NBA. Plus he's the focus of the other team every night. In crunch time he gets trapped left and right. He rarely has physical advantages over his matchup and has to craft his way around them. Should Irving work a little harder?

Probably, but you can't ask him to compete at the level he did for the first 20 games without expecting a pretty substantial dip in scoring efficiency (he's pretty close to 40/50/90 scoring 25 a game, >.600 TS too.)
Quote from: George W. Bush
Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
« Reply #50 on: February 27, 2018, 09:07:26 PM »

Offline moiso

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I’m not sure how we can judge how much effort someone puts forth on offense.  The teams highest scorer always tries the hardest on that end?  I think that’s ridiculous.  A portion of what Kyrie does on offense looks effortless to me.  Someone like Rozier appears to expend 3x more energy on offense than Irving.
per possesion perhaps. Irving's usage rate is 31 to Rozier's 20 and he plays 33 mpg to Rozier's 24.
And Irving plays far more minutes.  He seems pretty relaxed when he scores a lot of the time though.

Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
« Reply #51 on: February 27, 2018, 09:11:34 PM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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Defense is a lot about effort.  Don’t really mind that he’s not putting in the effort because easy to turn on for the playoffs as long as you have the ability, which he does.

You say he can turn it on whenever he wants.  I'd say bad habits are hard to break.  Even if he starts working harder and 'turns on' his effort in the playoff, he won't have the necessary discipline you'd expect.  To be a good defender, not just a few possessions, you need the discipline and experience to make the impact we need to go far. Even he knows this, he just only applies it to his offense.
Well in that case then no use in complaining about because it ain't changing (since his "bad habits" predate the cetlics).

I'm complaining because he was defending for the first 25 games, then he started doing his old thing.  I just want him to hold himself up to his commitment.  I get Hayward went down so there was a front to convince everyone the season wasn't over. Now that adrenaline wore off, he reverted.  For me, it was like saying he acknowledged the team wasn't going all the way.  It may not be the truth and he just is trying to save his energy, but it is still fishy.
It's hard to compete on defense at a high level and carry an offense for the whole year.

Very few players do that.

You can count them on 1 hand.

Major disservice to the guys who do and tend to be the best players in the league.  If you were to step slightly outside the role of "carrying a an offense," there's a whole lot more than five.
More than 5 guys compete hard on defense and carry their offenses like Irving does?

no way.

Steph and Durant both play hard enough on both sides but neither need to carry that offense. They can split that burden. Paul George is a really good offensive player and he competes on D but he doesnt carry that offense.

I'd say Embiid and AD probably do it, but I think it's different as a big. They dont have to work nearly as hard on either side of the ball to have an impact. I dont watch enough Giannis to know if his defensive workrate is good or if he just coasts off his massive length.

After that, I really cant think of many people. Wall's defensive workrate is bad. Kawhi's was good, but he's not even playing right now. James doesnt really try on D. Jimmy Butler was one of the guys who did, but even he didnt have nearly the offensive responsibilities of Kyrie.

After that you've got who else? Oladipo?

There just arent that many guys who can work as hard as Kyrie has to work on offense then turn around and compete at a high level on defense. It's just one of the drawbacks of smaller guys.

A giannis, or a KD, or an AD can relax on defense and still by ++ players. Point gaurds generally can't. I think if Hayward was healthy, you could demand a lot more from Kyrie, but the #2 option on this team right now is Jaylen Brown. Kyrie has to create a ton and is the sole focus of defenses. Its the same reason IT's defensive workrate was pretty bad last year. Same reason Russ didnt play D last year. Same reason Lebron doesnt play D in the regular season any more. It's virtually impossible to be tasked with that level of offensive creation and still really compete on defense for a full year.

Plenty of guys do it for the playoffs, a small handful do it for 82 games.

These quotes are getting long, but I didn't cut your thoughts.

Davis, Giannis, LeBron, Durant and Westbrook are a quick 5.  They all average more ppg than Kyrie this year, too.  You can argue that KD doesn't have the same offensive burden, but I think it's unfair to penalize him and some others for having more support.  If anything, you could expect Kyrie to be closer to 30 ppg with a larger offensive role and much less defensive effort and responsibility.

Oladipo is having a quietly awesome year.  His ppg are right with Kyrie, too.  He's not playoff proven like Kyrie, but the point is that he's been elite on both ends this season.

Obviously Kawhi.  Chris Paul has done it for well over a decade now.  While he's also older, Marc Gasol has too.  Jimmy Butler is an easy addition.  Paul George, like KD, doesn't have the same burden you mention.. but again, he's averaging 22 ppg.  Klay Thompson is averaging 20 ppg as well.

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Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
« Reply #52 on: February 27, 2018, 09:45:51 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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Defense is a lot about effort.  Don’t really mind that he’s not putting in the effort because easy to turn on for the playoffs as long as you have the ability, which he does.

You say he can turn it on whenever he wants.  I'd say bad habits are hard to break.  Even if he starts working harder and 'turns on' his effort in the playoff, he won't have the necessary discipline you'd expect.  To be a good defender, not just a few possessions, you need the discipline and experience to make the impact we need to go far. Even he knows this, he just only applies it to his offense.
Well in that case then no use in complaining about because it ain't changing (since his "bad habits" predate the cetlics).

I'm complaining because he was defending for the first 25 games, then he started doing his old thing.  I just want him to hold himself up to his commitment.  I get Hayward went down so there was a front to convince everyone the season wasn't over. Now that adrenaline wore off, he reverted.  For me, it was like saying he acknowledged the team wasn't going all the way.  It may not be the truth and he just is trying to save his energy, but it is still fishy.
It's hard to compete on defense at a high level and carry an offense for the whole year.

Very few players do that.

You can count them on 1 hand.

Major disservice to the guys who do and tend to be the best players in the league.  If you were to step slightly outside the role of "carrying a an offense," there's a whole lot more than five.
More than 5 guys compete hard on defense and carry their offenses like Irving does?

no way.

Steph and Durant both play hard enough on both sides but neither need to carry that offense. They can split that burden. Paul George is a really good offensive player and he competes on D but he doesnt carry that offense.

I'd say Embiid and AD probably do it, but I think it's different as a big. They dont have to work nearly as hard on either side of the ball to have an impact. I dont watch enough Giannis to know if his defensive workrate is good or if he just coasts off his massive length.

After that, I really cant think of many people. Wall's defensive workrate is bad. Kawhi's was good, but he's not even playing right now. James doesnt really try on D. Jimmy Butler was one of the guys who did, but even he didnt have nearly the offensive responsibilities of Kyrie.

After that you've got who else? Oladipo?

There just arent that many guys who can work as hard as Kyrie has to work on offense then turn around and compete at a high level on defense. It's just one of the drawbacks of smaller guys.

A giannis, or a KD, or an AD can relax on defense and still by ++ players. Point gaurds generally can't. I think if Hayward was healthy, you could demand a lot more from Kyrie, but the #2 option on this team right now is Jaylen Brown. Kyrie has to create a ton and is the sole focus of defenses. Its the same reason IT's defensive workrate was pretty bad last year. Same reason Russ didnt play D last year. Same reason Lebron doesnt play D in the regular season any more. It's virtually impossible to be tasked with that level of offensive creation and still really compete on defense for a full year.

Plenty of guys do it for the playoffs, a small handful do it for 82 games.

These quotes are getting long, but I didn't cut your thoughts.

Davis, Giannis, LeBron, Durant and Westbrook are a quick 5.  They all average more ppg than Kyrie this year, too.  You can argue that KD doesn't have the same offensive burden, but I think it's unfair to penalize him and some others for having more support.  If anything, you could expect Kyrie to be closer to 30 ppg with a larger offensive role and much less defensive effort and responsibility.

Oladipo is having a quietly awesome year.  His ppg are right with Kyrie, too.  He's not playoff proven like Kyrie, but the point is that he's been elite on both ends this season.

Obviously Kawhi.  Chris Paul has done it for well over a decade now.  While he's also older, Marc Gasol has too.  Jimmy Butler is an easy addition.  Paul George, like KD, doesn't have the same burden you mention.. but again, he's averaging 22 ppg.  Klay Thompson is averaging 20 ppg as well.

Lebron hasn't played much defense, in any, this season. Davis had Cousins for a majority of the year, so he didn't have to be leaned on as much. Durant obviously isn't asked to do as much as before. Westbrook is really hyper, but if he's better than Irving defensively it's not by much, as he's usually out of position. Giannis is the only player that clearly is asked to do more on both ends.

Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
« Reply #53 on: February 27, 2018, 09:56:52 PM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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Defense is a lot about effort.  Don’t really mind that he’s not putting in the effort because easy to turn on for the playoffs as long as you have the ability, which he does.

You say he can turn it on whenever he wants.  I'd say bad habits are hard to break.  Even if he starts working harder and 'turns on' his effort in the playoff, he won't have the necessary discipline you'd expect.  To be a good defender, not just a few possessions, you need the discipline and experience to make the impact we need to go far. Even he knows this, he just only applies it to his offense.
Well in that case then no use in complaining about because it ain't changing (since his "bad habits" predate the cetlics).

I'm complaining because he was defending for the first 25 games, then he started doing his old thing.  I just want him to hold himself up to his commitment.  I get Hayward went down so there was a front to convince everyone the season wasn't over. Now that adrenaline wore off, he reverted.  For me, it was like saying he acknowledged the team wasn't going all the way.  It may not be the truth and he just is trying to save his energy, but it is still fishy.
It's hard to compete on defense at a high level and carry an offense for the whole year.

Very few players do that.

You can count them on 1 hand.

Major disservice to the guys who do and tend to be the best players in the league.  If you were to step slightly outside the role of "carrying a an offense," there's a whole lot more than five.
More than 5 guys compete hard on defense and carry their offenses like Irving does?

no way.

Steph and Durant both play hard enough on both sides but neither need to carry that offense. They can split that burden. Paul George is a really good offensive player and he competes on D but he doesnt carry that offense.

I'd say Embiid and AD probably do it, but I think it's different as a big. They dont have to work nearly as hard on either side of the ball to have an impact. I dont watch enough Giannis to know if his defensive workrate is good or if he just coasts off his massive length.

After that, I really cant think of many people. Wall's defensive workrate is bad. Kawhi's was good, but he's not even playing right now. James doesnt really try on D. Jimmy Butler was one of the guys who did, but even he didnt have nearly the offensive responsibilities of Kyrie.

After that you've got who else? Oladipo?

There just arent that many guys who can work as hard as Kyrie has to work on offense then turn around and compete at a high level on defense. It's just one of the drawbacks of smaller guys.

A giannis, or a KD, or an AD can relax on defense and still by ++ players. Point gaurds generally can't. I think if Hayward was healthy, you could demand a lot more from Kyrie, but the #2 option on this team right now is Jaylen Brown. Kyrie has to create a ton and is the sole focus of defenses. Its the same reason IT's defensive workrate was pretty bad last year. Same reason Russ didnt play D last year. Same reason Lebron doesnt play D in the regular season any more. It's virtually impossible to be tasked with that level of offensive creation and still really compete on defense for a full year.

Plenty of guys do it for the playoffs, a small handful do it for 82 games.

These quotes are getting long, but I didn't cut your thoughts.

Davis, Giannis, LeBron, Durant and Westbrook are a quick 5.  They all average more ppg than Kyrie this year, too.  You can argue that KD doesn't have the same offensive burden, but I think it's unfair to penalize him and some others for having more support.  If anything, you could expect Kyrie to be closer to 30 ppg with a larger offensive role and much less defensive effort and responsibility.

Oladipo is having a quietly awesome year.  His ppg are right with Kyrie, too.  He's not playoff proven like Kyrie, but the point is that he's been elite on both ends this season.

Obviously Kawhi.  Chris Paul has done it for well over a decade now.  While he's also older, Marc Gasol has too.  Jimmy Butler is an easy addition.  Paul George, like KD, doesn't have the same burden you mention.. but again, he's averaging 22 ppg.  Klay Thompson is averaging 20 ppg as well.

Lebron hasn't played much defense, in any, this season. Davis had Cousins for a majority of the year, so he didn't have to be leaned on as much. Durant obviously isn't asked to do as much as before. Westbrook is really hyper, but if he's better than Irving defensively it's not by much, as he's usually out of position. Giannis is the only player that clearly is asked to do more on both ends.

I addressed those above.  They're averaging more PPG than Irving and all 5 are elite defenders.  They slack when they want to, because they can, as we all do in our work when pressure/stakes are low.  But if you fault them for that, you should fault Kyrie for that x10.  The Irving = Westbrook on defense comment is quoteworthy.  :P  That'd be poor form, and I do respect you too much to do that.  But could not disagree more with ya here.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2018, 10:06:11 PM by tarheelsxxiii »
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Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
« Reply #54 on: February 27, 2018, 10:13:01 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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Defense is a lot about effort.  Don’t really mind that he’s not putting in the effort because easy to turn on for the playoffs as long as you have the ability, which he does.

You say he can turn it on whenever he wants.  I'd say bad habits are hard to break.  Even if he starts working harder and 'turns on' his effort in the playoff, he won't have the necessary discipline you'd expect.  To be a good defender, not just a few possessions, you need the discipline and experience to make the impact we need to go far. Even he knows this, he just only applies it to his offense.
Well in that case then no use in complaining about because it ain't changing (since his "bad habits" predate the cetlics).

I'm complaining because he was defending for the first 25 games, then he started doing his old thing.  I just want him to hold himself up to his commitment.  I get Hayward went down so there was a front to convince everyone the season wasn't over. Now that adrenaline wore off, he reverted.  For me, it was like saying he acknowledged the team wasn't going all the way.  It may not be the truth and he just is trying to save his energy, but it is still fishy.
It's hard to compete on defense at a high level and carry an offense for the whole year.

Very few players do that.

You can count them on 1 hand.

Major disservice to the guys who do and tend to be the best players in the league.  If you were to step slightly outside the role of "carrying a an offense," there's a whole lot more than five.
More than 5 guys compete hard on defense and carry their offenses like Irving does?

no way.

Steph and Durant both play hard enough on both sides but neither need to carry that offense. They can split that burden. Paul George is a really good offensive player and he competes on D but he doesnt carry that offense.

I'd say Embiid and AD probably do it, but I think it's different as a big. They dont have to work nearly as hard on either side of the ball to have an impact. I dont watch enough Giannis to know if his defensive workrate is good or if he just coasts off his massive length.

After that, I really cant think of many people. Wall's defensive workrate is bad. Kawhi's was good, but he's not even playing right now. James doesnt really try on D. Jimmy Butler was one of the guys who did, but even he didnt have nearly the offensive responsibilities of Kyrie.

After that you've got who else? Oladipo?

There just arent that many guys who can work as hard as Kyrie has to work on offense then turn around and compete at a high level on defense. It's just one of the drawbacks of smaller guys.

A giannis, or a KD, or an AD can relax on defense and still by ++ players. Point gaurds generally can't. I think if Hayward was healthy, you could demand a lot more from Kyrie, but the #2 option on this team right now is Jaylen Brown. Kyrie has to create a ton and is the sole focus of defenses. Its the same reason IT's defensive workrate was pretty bad last year. Same reason Russ didnt play D last year. Same reason Lebron doesnt play D in the regular season any more. It's virtually impossible to be tasked with that level of offensive creation and still really compete on defense for a full year.

Plenty of guys do it for the playoffs, a small handful do it for 82 games.

These quotes are getting long, but I didn't cut your thoughts.

Davis, Giannis, LeBron, Durant and Westbrook are a quick 5.  They all average more ppg than Kyrie this year, too.  You can argue that KD doesn't have the same offensive burden, but I think it's unfair to penalize him and some others for having more support.  If anything, you could expect Kyrie to be closer to 30 ppg with a larger offensive role and much less defensive effort and responsibility.

Oladipo is having a quietly awesome year.  His ppg are right with Kyrie, too.  He's not playoff proven like Kyrie, but the point is that he's been elite on both ends this season.

Obviously Kawhi.  Chris Paul has done it for well over a decade now.  While he's also older, Marc Gasol has too.  Jimmy Butler is an easy addition.  Paul George, like KD, doesn't have the same burden you mention.. but again, he's averaging 22 ppg.  Klay Thompson is averaging 20 ppg as well.

Lebron hasn't played much defense, in any, this season. Davis had Cousins for a majority of the year, so he didn't have to be leaned on as much. Durant obviously isn't asked to do as much as before. Westbrook is really hyper, but if he's better than Irving defensively it's not by much, as he's usually out of position. Giannis is the only player that clearly is asked to do more on both ends.

I addressed those above.  They're averaging more PPG than Irving and all 5 are elite defenders.  They slack when they want to, because they can, as we all do in our work when pressure/stakes are low.  But if you fault them for that, you should fault Kyrie for that x10.  The Irving = Westbrook on defense comment is quoteworthy.  :P  That'd be poor form, and I do respect you too much to do that.  But could not disagree more with ya here.

Westbrook is definitely not an elite defender and not only does he have some headscratching breakdowns, but was accused by Lowe of leaving his man in order to pad his rebounding stats.

https://www.sbnation.com/2017/11/22/16693192/russell-westbrook-defense-thunder-controller-nba-2k

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m5gARTD3Vgo


Regardless, it's awesome to know that we have such a great player and even having these discussions.

Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
« Reply #55 on: February 27, 2018, 10:30:15 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Defense is a lot about effort.  Don’t really mind that he’s not putting in the effort because easy to turn on for the playoffs as long as you have the ability, which he does.

You say he can turn it on whenever he wants.  I'd say bad habits are hard to break.  Even if he starts working harder and 'turns on' his effort in the playoff, he won't have the necessary discipline you'd expect.  To be a good defender, not just a few possessions, you need the discipline and experience to make the impact we need to go far. Even he knows this, he just only applies it to his offense.
Well in that case then no use in complaining about because it ain't changing (since his "bad habits" predate the cetlics).

I'm complaining because he was defending for the first 25 games, then he started doing his old thing.  I just want him to hold himself up to his commitment.  I get Hayward went down so there was a front to convince everyone the season wasn't over. Now that adrenaline wore off, he reverted.  For me, it was like saying he acknowledged the team wasn't going all the way.  It may not be the truth and he just is trying to save his energy, but it is still fishy.
It's hard to compete on defense at a high level and carry an offense for the whole year.

Very few players do that.

You can count them on 1 hand.

Major disservice to the guys who do and tend to be the best players in the league.  If you were to step slightly outside the role of "carrying a an offense," there's a whole lot more than five.
More than 5 guys compete hard on defense and carry their offenses like Irving does?

no way.

Steph and Durant both play hard enough on both sides but neither need to carry that offense. They can split that burden. Paul George is a really good offensive player and he competes on D but he doesnt carry that offense.

I'd say Embiid and AD probably do it, but I think it's different as a big. They dont have to work nearly as hard on either side of the ball to have an impact. I dont watch enough Giannis to know if his defensive workrate is good or if he just coasts off his massive length.

After that, I really cant think of many people. Wall's defensive workrate is bad. Kawhi's was good, but he's not even playing right now. James doesnt really try on D. Jimmy Butler was one of the guys who did, but even he didnt have nearly the offensive responsibilities of Kyrie.

After that you've got who else? Oladipo?

There just arent that many guys who can work as hard as Kyrie has to work on offense then turn around and compete at a high level on defense. It's just one of the drawbacks of smaller guys.

A giannis, or a KD, or an AD can relax on defense and still by ++ players. Point gaurds generally can't. I think if Hayward was healthy, you could demand a lot more from Kyrie, but the #2 option on this team right now is Jaylen Brown. Kyrie has to create a ton and is the sole focus of defenses. Its the same reason IT's defensive workrate was pretty bad last year. Same reason Russ didnt play D last year. Same reason Lebron doesnt play D in the regular season any more. It's virtually impossible to be tasked with that level of offensive creation and still really compete on defense for a full year.

Plenty of guys do it for the playoffs, a small handful do it for 82 games.

These quotes are getting long, but I didn't cut your thoughts.

Davis, Giannis, LeBron, Durant and Westbrook are a quick 5.  They all average more ppg than Kyrie this year, too.  You can argue that KD doesn't have the same offensive burden, but I think it's unfair to penalize him and some others for having more support.  If anything, you could expect Kyrie to be closer to 30 ppg with a larger offensive role and much less defensive effort and responsibility.

Oladipo is having a quietly awesome year.  His ppg are right with Kyrie, too.  He's not playoff proven like Kyrie, but the point is that he's been elite on both ends this season.

Obviously Kawhi.  Chris Paul has done it for well over a decade now.  While he's also older, Marc Gasol has too.  Jimmy Butler is an easy addition.  Paul George, like KD, doesn't have the same burden you mention.. but again, he's averaging 22 ppg.  Klay Thompson is averaging 20 ppg as well.

Lebron hasn't played much defense, in any, this season. Davis had Cousins for a majority of the year, so he didn't have to be leaned on as much. Durant obviously isn't asked to do as much as before. Westbrook is really hyper, but if he's better than Irving defensively it's not by much, as he's usually out of position. Giannis is the only player that clearly is asked to do more on both ends.

I addressed those above.  They're averaging more PPG than Irving and all 5 are elite defenders.  They slack when they want to, because they can, as we all do in our work when pressure/stakes are low.  But if you fault them for that, you should fault Kyrie for that x10.  The Irving = Westbrook on defense comment is quoteworthy.  :P  That'd be poor form, and I do respect you too much to do that.  But could not disagree more with ya here.
Westbrook is so so far from an elite defender. Lebron doesnt try on that end and Durant neither has the burden Kyrie does, nor does he exert that much effort. His length allows him to be really good on that end without going balls to the wall all the time.

If you think Klay and Kyrie have similar burden's IDK what to tell you.

Paul George didn't try much on defense his last few years in Indiana. He gets to OKC where he is no longer tasked with carrying the offense and all of a sudden he is locked in on defense again. Why? because he doesnt have Kyrie like responsibilities any more.

If we had Hayward, Id expect a higher level of effort, but just like with IT last year (who didnt give a crap about defense) I'm not gonna demand a high level of effort on D from Kyrie either because we are asking him to carry us offensively.
Quote from: George W. Bush
Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
« Reply #56 on: February 27, 2018, 10:31:44 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Defense is a lot about effort.  Don’t really mind that he’s not putting in the effort because easy to turn on for the playoffs as long as you have the ability, which he does.

You say he can turn it on whenever he wants.  I'd say bad habits are hard to break.  Even if he starts working harder and 'turns on' his effort in the playoff, he won't have the necessary discipline you'd expect.  To be a good defender, not just a few possessions, you need the discipline and experience to make the impact we need to go far. Even he knows this, he just only applies it to his offense.
Well in that case then no use in complaining about because it ain't changing (since his "bad habits" predate the cetlics).

I'm complaining because he was defending for the first 25 games, then he started doing his old thing.  I just want him to hold himself up to his commitment.  I get Hayward went down so there was a front to convince everyone the season wasn't over. Now that adrenaline wore off, he reverted.  For me, it was like saying he acknowledged the team wasn't going all the way.  It may not be the truth and he just is trying to save his energy, but it is still fishy.
It's hard to compete on defense at a high level and carry an offense for the whole year.

Very few players do that.

You can count them on 1 hand.

Major disservice to the guys who do and tend to be the best players in the league.  If you were to step slightly outside the role of "carrying a an offense," there's a whole lot more than five.
More than 5 guys compete hard on defense and carry their offenses like Irving does?

no way.

Steph and Durant both play hard enough on both sides but neither need to carry that offense. They can split that burden. Paul George is a really good offensive player and he competes on D but he doesnt carry that offense.

I'd say Embiid and AD probably do it, but I think it's different as a big. They dont have to work nearly as hard on either side of the ball to have an impact. I dont watch enough Giannis to know if his defensive workrate is good or if he just coasts off his massive length.

After that, I really cant think of many people. Wall's defensive workrate is bad. Kawhi's was good, but he's not even playing right now. James doesnt really try on D. Jimmy Butler was one of the guys who did, but even he didnt have nearly the offensive responsibilities of Kyrie.

After that you've got who else? Oladipo?

There just arent that many guys who can work as hard as Kyrie has to work on offense then turn around and compete at a high level on defense. It's just one of the drawbacks of smaller guys.

A giannis, or a KD, or an AD can relax on defense and still by ++ players. Point gaurds generally can't. I think if Hayward was healthy, you could demand a lot more from Kyrie, but the #2 option on this team right now is Jaylen Brown. Kyrie has to create a ton and is the sole focus of defenses. Its the same reason IT's defensive workrate was pretty bad last year. Same reason Russ didnt play D last year. Same reason Lebron doesnt play D in the regular season any more. It's virtually impossible to be tasked with that level of offensive creation and still really compete on defense for a full year.

Plenty of guys do it for the playoffs, a small handful do it for 82 games.

These quotes are getting long, but I didn't cut your thoughts.

Davis, Giannis, LeBron, Durant and Westbrook are a quick 5.  They all average more ppg than Kyrie this year, too.  You can argue that KD doesn't have the same offensive burden, but I think it's unfair to penalize him and some others for having more support.  If anything, you could expect Kyrie to be closer to 30 ppg with a larger offensive role and much less defensive effort and responsibility.

Oladipo is having a quietly awesome year.  His ppg are right with Kyrie, too.  He's not playoff proven like Kyrie, but the point is that he's been elite on both ends this season.

Obviously Kawhi.  Chris Paul has done it for well over a decade now.  While he's also older, Marc Gasol has too.  Jimmy Butler is an easy addition.  Paul George, like KD, doesn't have the same burden you mention.. but again, he's averaging 22 ppg.  Klay Thompson is averaging 20 ppg as well.

Lebron hasn't played much defense, in any, this season. Davis had Cousins for a majority of the year, so he didn't have to be leaned on as much. Durant obviously isn't asked to do as much as before. Westbrook is really hyper, but if he's better than Irving defensively it's not by much, as he's usually out of position. Giannis is the only player that clearly is asked to do more on both ends.

I addressed those above.  They're averaging more PPG than Irving and all 5 are elite defenders.  They slack when they want to, because they can, as we all do in our work when pressure/stakes are low.  But if you fault them for that, you should fault Kyrie for that x10.  The Irving = Westbrook on defense comment is quoteworthy.  :P  That'd be poor form, and I do respect you too much to do that.  But could not disagree more with ya here.

Westbrook is definitely not an elite defender and not only does he have some headscratching breakdowns, but was accused by Lowe of leaving his man in order to pad his rebounding stats.

https://www.sbnation.com/2017/11/22/16693192/russell-westbrook-defense-thunder-controller-nba-2k

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m5gARTD3Vgo


Regardless, it's awesome to know that we have such a great player and even having these discussions.
claiming Westbrook as an elite defender is akin to saying "I havent watched Russell Westbrook in at least 2 years."
Quote from: George W. Bush
Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
« Reply #57 on: February 27, 2018, 10:38:38 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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Defense is a lot about effort.  Don’t really mind that he’s not putting in the effort because easy to turn on for the playoffs as long as you have the ability, which he does.

You say he can turn it on whenever he wants.  I'd say bad habits are hard to break.  Even if he starts working harder and 'turns on' his effort in the playoff, he won't have the necessary discipline you'd expect.  To be a good defender, not just a few possessions, you need the discipline and experience to make the impact we need to go far. Even he knows this, he just only applies it to his offense.
Well in that case then no use in complaining about because it ain't changing (since his "bad habits" predate the cetlics).

I'm complaining because he was defending for the first 25 games, then he started doing his old thing.  I just want him to hold himself up to his commitment.  I get Hayward went down so there was a front to convince everyone the season wasn't over. Now that adrenaline wore off, he reverted.  For me, it was like saying he acknowledged the team wasn't going all the way.  It may not be the truth and he just is trying to save his energy, but it is still fishy.
It's hard to compete on defense at a high level and carry an offense for the whole year.

Very few players do that.

You can count them on 1 hand.

Major disservice to the guys who do and tend to be the best players in the league.  If you were to step slightly outside the role of "carrying a an offense," there's a whole lot more than five.
More than 5 guys compete hard on defense and carry their offenses like Irving does?

no way.

Steph and Durant both play hard enough on both sides but neither need to carry that offense. They can split that burden. Paul George is a really good offensive player and he competes on D but he doesnt carry that offense.

I'd say Embiid and AD probably do it, but I think it's different as a big. They dont have to work nearly as hard on either side of the ball to have an impact. I dont watch enough Giannis to know if his defensive workrate is good or if he just coasts off his massive length.

After that, I really cant think of many people. Wall's defensive workrate is bad. Kawhi's was good, but he's not even playing right now. James doesnt really try on D. Jimmy Butler was one of the guys who did, but even he didnt have nearly the offensive responsibilities of Kyrie.

After that you've got who else? Oladipo?

There just arent that many guys who can work as hard as Kyrie has to work on offense then turn around and compete at a high level on defense. It's just one of the drawbacks of smaller guys.

A giannis, or a KD, or an AD can relax on defense and still by ++ players. Point gaurds generally can't. I think if Hayward was healthy, you could demand a lot more from Kyrie, but the #2 option on this team right now is Jaylen Brown. Kyrie has to create a ton and is the sole focus of defenses. Its the same reason IT's defensive workrate was pretty bad last year. Same reason Russ didnt play D last year. Same reason Lebron doesnt play D in the regular season any more. It's virtually impossible to be tasked with that level of offensive creation and still really compete on defense for a full year.

Plenty of guys do it for the playoffs, a small handful do it for 82 games.

These quotes are getting long, but I didn't cut your thoughts.

Davis, Giannis, LeBron, Durant and Westbrook are a quick 5.  They all average more ppg than Kyrie this year, too.  You can argue that KD doesn't have the same offensive burden, but I think it's unfair to penalize him and some others for having more support.  If anything, you could expect Kyrie to be closer to 30 ppg with a larger offensive role and much less defensive effort and responsibility.

Oladipo is having a quietly awesome year.  His ppg are right with Kyrie, too.  He's not playoff proven like Kyrie, but the point is that he's been elite on both ends this season.

Obviously Kawhi.  Chris Paul has done it for well over a decade now.  While he's also older, Marc Gasol has too.  Jimmy Butler is an easy addition.  Paul George, like KD, doesn't have the same burden you mention.. but again, he's averaging 22 ppg.  Klay Thompson is averaging 20 ppg as well.

Lebron hasn't played much defense, in any, this season. Davis had Cousins for a majority of the year, so he didn't have to be leaned on as much. Durant obviously isn't asked to do as much as before. Westbrook is really hyper, but if he's better than Irving defensively it's not by much, as he's usually out of position. Giannis is the only player that clearly is asked to do more on both ends.

I addressed those above.  They're averaging more PPG than Irving and all 5 are elite defenders.  They slack when they want to, because they can, as we all do in our work when pressure/stakes are low.  But if you fault them for that, you should fault Kyrie for that x10.  The Irving = Westbrook on defense comment is quoteworthy.  :P  That'd be poor form, and I do respect you too much to do that.  But could not disagree more with ya here.

Westbrook is definitely not an elite defender and not only does he have some headscratching breakdowns, but was accused by Lowe of leaving his man in order to pad his rebounding stats.

https://www.sbnation.com/2017/11/22/16693192/russell-westbrook-defense-thunder-controller-nba-2k

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m5gARTD3Vgo


Regardless, it's awesome to know that we have such a great player and even having these discussions.
claiming Westbrook as an elite defender is akin to saying "I havent watched Russell Westbrook in at least 2 years."

Exactly. Westbrook has all the physical tools to be an elite defender, but he's not.


These type of plays happen more than you think...

Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
« Reply #58 on: February 28, 2018, 01:54:38 AM »

Offline LilRip

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Just to pile on Westbrook, the dude gets lost too in the most crucial of times. I don’t know if it’s lack of communication or lack of awareness but bottom line, he’s not the stopper he would seem to be.
- LilRip

Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
« Reply #59 on: February 28, 2018, 04:28:38 PM »

Offline GRADYCOLNON

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It is simple.  Those top players play at least average defense to above average.  All I'm asking Irving is to bring his defense to that level.  He is below average because he doesn't focus on improving from his mistakes.  He has the game tape to make these adjustments.  Some of the mistakes he makes are easy fixes.  Getting around screens, sliding your feet to prevent uncontested drives, staying closer to your man to contest shots closer.  But I guess it could be too much to ask our best player, the fancy dribbles are indeed more important.