Might trade exceptions be part of the Celtics' plan?

[Walker Wiggle]

Writing this as something of a question for cap-knowledgeable people out there.

If the Celtics were to lose Kyrie and Horford, but fill up their cap space with other FAs (like Kemba Walker, Vucevic plus others, whatever) could they still generate trade exceptions with their outgoing FAs to be used to go over the cap?

For instance, before signing any FAs of their own, could they trade Kyrie into Brooklyn's cap space (and throw in something minor, like a future 2nd-rounder, to make it worth their while) and generate an exception that way? In that scenario, would they still have the cap space to add players, but keep that trade exception in their back pocket to add role players and such?

Please chime in and let me know if this is realistic.

[mqtcelticsfan]

I *think* that would create a cap hold that would render signing Walker to a max deal impossible.

[slamtheking]

I *think* that would create a cap hold that would render signing Walker to a max deal impossible.

but might allow for Charlotte to S&T Walker to us into that exception.

not so sure we can do that but it's an intriguing thought

[gpap]

My understanding of the cap is I don't think it's possible.

In other words, if/when we renounce Rozier and Morris, we'll have approx $35 million in cap space.

We could use that cap space to absorb contracts other teams are willing to trade (like how Houston is trying to deal Capela, Gordon and Tucker to acquire J. Butler.)

But after signing Kemba to a max contract, that cap space gets filled up with his contract.

[Walker Wiggle]

My understanding of the cap is I don't think it's possible.

In other words, if/when we renounce Rozier and Morris, we'll have approx $35 million in cap space.

We could use that cap space to absorb contracts other teams are willing to trade (like how Houston is trying to deal Capela, Gordon and Tucker to acquire J. Butler.)

But after signing Kemba to a max contract, that cap space gets filled up with his contract.

Ok, point taken. The next question is: If the Celtics are technically over the cap before Horford and Kyrie sign elsewhere (because of their cap holds), that means that signing and trading Kyrie into the Nets' cap space generates a trade exception. The question would be, does that trade still get the Celtics under the cap (that is, able to sign FAs)? Or does the traded player exception that it creates count towards the cap, thereby limiting them from signing FAs? Not sure.

[Roy H.]

Trade exceptions count against the cap.

The only way they might help us is if a team wanted to give Horford $32 million next year. We could then fit Kemba into that trade exception.

(I think the “base year compensation” rules prevent us from getting a $32 million TPE for Kyrie, but I could be wrong.)

[jambr380]

SL had this to say a couple of days ago - and I've already re-posted it once - but I thought it was relevant to this thread in trying to maintain as much salary to sign additional players as possible.

Without regard to a specific trade, if the Celtics were able to work out a S&T with Horford’s new team, they could use his new salary in a 3-way trade in which they acquired Walker.  This would allow them to use the MLE and BAE instead of the room exception, as well as preserve Bird rights to Rozier and Morris.  If it took a second rounder going to each of those teams, it could be worth it in terms of getting starter-level taken at the 4 and/or 5 via those exceptions..

There is also the possibility that CHA is interested in Rozier, so that could open up other possibilities.

[MichiganAdam]

How do TPE's work with the hard cap imposed by the sign and trades?  Is it an exception to the "hard cap".  I though the MLE and BAE went away with the hard cap?  THese are finer points of the rules so I really don't know or have t he desire to dig that deep.

[gpap]

Trade exceptions count against the cap.

The only way they might help us is if a team wanted to give Horford $32 million next year. We could then fit Kemba into that trade exception.

(I think the “base year compensation” rules prevent us from getting a $32 million TPE for Kyrie, but I could be wrong.)

So in other words, say we get a trade exception in a sign and trade for Horford. We can use that trade exception to absorb Kemba's salary and still have $35 million in cap space?

[jambr380]

How do TPE's work with the hard cap imposed by the sign and trades?  Is it an exception to the "hard cap".  I though the MLE and BAE went away with the hard cap?  THese are finer points of the rules so I really don't know or have t he desire to dig that deep.

You become hard capped once you use one of the exceptions (BAE/non-taxpayer MLE) or participate in a s&t. The apron (or hard cap line) is set several million dollars above the lux tax line, though, so it is unlikely that we will get to that point since we are losing so many players - including high priced ones like Al and Kyrie.

Furthermore, Danny will really need to work his magic to stay above the cap at all by doing a s&t with someone like Horford to acquire Kemba in a 3-way deal. Then he will be able to use the BAE and MLE. If we do not stay above the cap, we will only get the room exception and will be nowhere near the apron.

[tonydelk]

How do TPE's work with the hard cap imposed by the sign and trades?  Is it an exception to the "hard cap".  I though the MLE and BAE went away with the hard cap?  THese are finer points of the rules so I really don't know or have t he desire to dig that deep.

You become hard capped once you use one of the exceptions (BAE/non-taxpayer MLE) or participate in a s&t. The apron (or hard cap line) is set several million dollars above the lux tax line, though, so it is unlikely that we will get to that point since we are losing so many players - including high priced ones like Al and Kyrie.

Furthermore, Danny will really need to work his magic to stay above the cap at all by doing a s&t with someone like Horford to acquire Kemba in a 3-way deal. Then he will be able to use the BAE and MLE. If we do not stay above the cap, we will only get the room exception and will be nowhere near the apron.

So the only way we can have the BAE and MLE is if we do a sign and trade for Kemba and possibly resign a combo of Rozier, Morris, Theis and Wannamaker and stay above the cap but below the luxury tax.  That doesn't seem to difficult in theory but one of Horford and or Kyrie and the team they are going to would have to consent.  I just don't see why a team would help unless the Kyrie or Al required them to do it as part of them signing there.  It would be great to have our cake and eat it to but I honestly would think that is the less likely scenario but to get Kemba and and legit Big would be amazing.  I could not imagine Capala and Kemba somehow on this team.  Man that would be a fun team to watch.

[jambr380]

How do TPE's work with the hard cap imposed by the sign and trades?  Is it an exception to the "hard cap".  I though the MLE and BAE went away with the hard cap?  THese are finer points of the rules so I really don't know or have t he desire to dig that deep.

You become hard capped once you use one of the exceptions (BAE/non-taxpayer MLE) or participate in a s&t. The apron (or hard cap line) is set several million dollars above the lux tax line, though, so it is unlikely that we will get to that point since we are losing so many players - including high priced ones like Al and Kyrie.

Furthermore, Danny will really need to work his magic to stay above the cap at all by doing a s&t with someone like Horford to acquire Kemba in a 3-way deal. Then he will be able to use the BAE and MLE. If we do not stay above the cap, we will only get the room exception and will be nowhere near the apron.

So the only way we can have the BAE and MLE is if we do a sign and trade for Kemba and possibly resign a combo of Rozier, Morris, Theis and Wannamaker and stay above the cap but below the luxury tax.  That doesn't seem to difficult in theory but one of Horford and or Kyrie and the team they are going to would have to consent.  I just don't see why a team would help unless the Kyrie or Al required them to do it as part of them signing there.  It would be great to have our cake and eat it to but I honestly would think that is the less likely scenario but to get Kemba and and legit Big would be amazing.  I could not imagine Capala and Kemba somehow on this team.  Man that would be a fun team to watch.

From my understanding, you are correct. We need to stay above the cap to have those more lucrative exceptions and the ability to re-sign Rozier/Morris/Theis. If we toss a 2nd rounder to whoever Al signs with, that might be enough. CHA would probably want something back in return, as well, and that something might be Rozier.

[keevsnick]

As a technical matter it's possible using double sign and traded and such, but those type of things rarely happen because there is a ton of moving parts and multiple players and teams would need to agree.

[jambr380]

As a technical matter it's possible using double sign and traded and such, but those type of things rarely happen because there is a ton of moving parts and multiple players and teams would need to agree.

So far we have reports that the Cs are interested in Capela by way of a 3-way deal with Houston and Philly. And also that Rozier might be of interest to CHA should Kemba want to sign here. If we can convince whoever is signing Al to do a s&t using a pick, it seems like there may be enough interest from different parties to actually make this thing work with various trades without gutting our roster.

But, while interesting, I realize it is highly unlikely.