Tatum as the starting PF

[Silky]

Our defense will be bottom 10 if hayward or tatum start at pf.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

I think Tatum would get eaten alive as a 4.

I see the logic, but I think in the 2019-20 season, probably not. Not a lot of Karl Malones out there any longer.

True, but it doesn't take a Malone type to wreak havoc against a skinny dude like Tatum. Guys like Siakam, Sabonis, Giannis, Mirotic, Griffin, Portis, and Isaac would, I think, give Tatum lots of problems.

[pearljammer10]

Tatum is a 3 and it should stay that way until he adds 20 pounds of muscle to his body. He should not see more than 8 minutes at the 4 slot per game.

[alt]

Our defense will be bottom 10 if hayward or tatum start at pf.

Well, depends on the rest of the team, but with a qualify defensive 5 like Adams and two good defensive guards like Smart/Brown? That would be a very good NBA defense I think. I should think the offense would be their achilles heel.

Heck, last season Horford played 5 most of the time - Baynes only played ~800 minutes and few of those along Horford. Most of the lineups had Hayward/Tatum/Morris at the 4. And the team still had the 7th best defense in the league - in spite of a weaker defender like Irving at the 1. Do you think Morris is a much better defender than Hayward/Tatum at the 4?

Here are the best defensive 5-men lineups for Boston last season among those used at least 50 minutes. At bold, the two forwards (3 and 4):

A. Horford, G. Hayward, .K. Irving, M. Morris, M. Smart

D. Theis, G. Hayward, T. Rozier, J. Brown, J. Tatum

A. Horford, K. Irving, M. Morris, M. Smart, J. Brown

A. Horford, K. Irving, M. Smart, J. Brown, J. Tatum

A. Horford, G. Hayward, K. Irving, J. Brown, J. Tatum

A. Horford, M. Morris, M. Smart, T. Rozier, J. Tatum

G. Hayward, K. Irving, T. Rozier, J. Brown, D. Theis

A. Horford, G. Hayward, K. Irving, M. Morris, J. Tatum

G. Hayward, M. Morris, T. Rozier, J. Brown, D. Theis

https://stats.nba.com/lineups/advanced/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*BOS:MIN*GE*50&sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1


That said, I'm not convinced that absorbing Adams contract is the way to go.

[GreenCoffeeBean]

Tatum can’t bang

[gouki88]

Our defense will be bottom 10 if hayward or tatum start at pf.

Well, depends on the rest of the team, but with a qualify defensive 5 like Adams and two good defensive guards like Smart/Brown? That would be a very good NBA defense I think. I should think the offense would be their achilles heel.

Heck, last season Horford played 5 most of the time - Baynes only played ~800 minutes and few of those along Horford. Most of the lineups had Hayward/Tatum/Morris at the 4. And the team still had the 7th best defense in the league - in spite of a weaker defender like Irving at the 1. Do you think Morris is a much better defender than Hayward/Tatum at the 4?

Here are the best defensive 5-men lineups for Boston last season among those used at least 50 minutes. At bold, the two forwards (3 and 4):

A. Horford, G. Hayward, .K. Irving, M. Morris, M. Smart

D. Theis, G. Hayward, T. Rozier, J. Brown, J. Tatum

A. Horford, K. Irving, M. Morris, M. Smart, J. Brown

A. Horford, K. Irving, M. Smart, J. Brown, J. Tatum

A. Horford, G. Hayward, K. Irving, J. Brown, J. Tatum

A. Horford, M. Morris, M. Smart, T. Rozier, J. Tatum

G. Hayward, K. Irving, T. Rozier, J. Brown, D. Theis

A. Horford, G. Hayward, K. Irving, M. Morris, J. Tatum

G. Hayward, M. Morris, T. Rozier, J. Brown, D. Theis

https://stats.nba.com/lineups/advanced/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*BOS:MIN*GE*50&sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1


That said, I'm not convinced that absorbing Adams contract is the way to go.

TP for this. I think lots of people dismiss the idea because neither are a traditional 4, which isn't really how Brad Stevens rolls.

I like Adams, but I am biased towards a big Kiwi bruiser. I trust Ainge to find an approproate starting centre

[Sketch5]

Our defense will be bottom 10 if hayward or tatum start at pf.

Well, depends on the rest of the team, but with a qualify defensive 5 like Adams and two good defensive guards like Smart/Brown? That would be a very good NBA defense I think. I should think the offense would be their achilles heel.

Heck, last season Horford played 5 most of the time - Baynes only played ~800 minutes and few of those along Horford. Most of the lineups had Hayward/Tatum/Morris at the 4. And the team still had the 7th best defense in the league - in spite of a weaker defender like Irving at the 1. Do you think Morris is a much better defender than Hayward/Tatum at the 4?

Here are the best defensive 5-men lineups for Boston last season among those used at least 50 minutes. At bold, the two forwards (3 and 4):

A. Horford, G. Hayward, .K. Irving, M. Morris, M. Smart

D. Theis, G. Hayward, T. Rozier, J. Brown, J. Tatum

A. Horford, K. Irving, M. Morris, M. Smart, J. Brown

A. Horford, K. Irving, M. Smart, J. Brown, J. Tatum

A. Horford, G. Hayward, K. Irving, J. Brown, J. Tatum

A. Horford, M. Morris, M. Smart, T. Rozier, J. Tatum

G. Hayward, K. Irving, T. Rozier, J. Brown, D. Theis

A. Horford, G. Hayward, K. Irving, M. Morris, J. Tatum

G. Hayward, M. Morris, T. Rozier, J. Brown, D. Theis

https://stats.nba.com/lineups/advanced/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*BOS:MIN*GE*50&sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1


That said, I'm not convinced that absorbing Adams contract is the way to go.

You can't use stats if you want to win arguments on the internet. There is no place for that kind of nonsense.....

[LilRip]

Tatum needs to bulk up before he can play PF full time. It’s not that there are Karl Malone types. But I can see how Tatum would be outmuscled on the boards, and would provide weak help D inside.

GSW gets away with it because KD doesn’t get pushed around anymore and he actually plays to his size. Seems like Tatum plays smaller than he actually is.

[wiley]

Tatum needs to bulk up before he can play PF full time. It’s not that there are Karl Malone types. But I can see how Tatum would be outmuscled on the boards, and would provide weak help D inside.

GSW gets away with it because KD doesn’t get pushed around anymore and he actually plays to his size. Seems like Tatum plays smaller than he actually is.

Agree.

[saltlover]

I think Tatum would get eaten alive as a 4.

I see the logic, but I think in the 2019-20 season, probably not. Not a lot of Karl Malones out there any longer.

True, but it doesn't take a Malone type to wreak havoc against a skinny dude like Tatum. Guys like Siakam, Sabonis, Giannis, Mirotic, Griffin, Portis, and Isaac would, I think, give Tatum lots of problems.

That said, a lot of the players mentioned above don’t start, and including Giannis isn’t fair because he gives literally everyone problems.  Starting Tatum at PF isn’t the same thing as having him play all his minutes there.

[liam]

I think Tatum would get eaten alive as a 4.

I see the logic, but I think in the 2019-20 season, probably not. Not a lot of Karl Malones out there any longer.

True, but it doesn't take a Malone type to wreak havoc against a skinny dude like Tatum. Guys like Siakam, Sabonis, Giannis, Mirotic, Griffin, Portis, and Isaac would, I think, give Tatum lots of problems.

That said, a lot of the players mentioned above don’t start, and including Giannis isn’t fair because he gives literally everyone problems.  Starting Tatum at PF isn’t the same thing as having him play all his minutes there.

You have to at the opposing power forward on the offensive end. Barring Giannis and Draymond is there a power forward that can guard Tatum at the other end?

[boscel33]

In today's NBA game, I believe he can absolutely play the 4.

[Somebody]

Our defense will be bottom 10 if hayward or tatum start at pf.

Well, depends on the rest of the team, but with a qualify defensive 5 like Adams and two good defensive guards like Smart/Brown? That would be a very good NBA defense I think. I should think the offense would be their achilles heel.

Heck, last season Horford played 5 most of the time - Baynes only played ~800 minutes and few of those along Horford. Most of the lineups had Hayward/Tatum/Morris at the 4. And the team still had the 7th best defense in the league - in spite of a weaker defender like Irving at the 1. Do you think Morris is a much better defender than Hayward/Tatum at the 4?

Here are the best defensive 5-men lineups for Boston last season among those used at least 50 minutes. At bold, the two forwards (3 and 4):

A. Horford, G. Hayward, .K. Irving, M. Morris, M. Smart

D. Theis, G. Hayward, T. Rozier, J. Brown, J. Tatum

A. Horford, K. Irving, M. Morris, M. Smart, J. Brown

A. Horford, K. Irving, M. Smart, J. Brown, J. Tatum

A. Horford, G. Hayward, K. Irving, J. Brown, J. Tatum

A. Horford, M. Morris, M. Smart, T. Rozier, J. Tatum

G. Hayward, K. Irving, T. Rozier, J. Brown, D. Theis

A. Horford, G. Hayward, K. Irving, M. Morris, J. Tatum

G. Hayward, M. Morris, T. Rozier, J. Brown, D. Theis

https://stats.nba.com/lineups/advanced/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*BOS:MIN*GE*50&sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1


That said, I'm not convinced that absorbing Adams contract is the way to go.

TP for this. I think lots of people dismiss the idea because neither are a traditional 4, which isn't really how Brad Stevens rolls.

I like Adams, but I am biased towards a big Kiwi bruiser. I trust Ainge to find an approproate starting centre

It's not just about Hayward or Tatum not being a traditional 4. They don't have qualities that allow them to be a full time 4, not even as a modern 4 . Take Draymond Green for example. Although he's undersized for a PF/C, he has good strength, high IQ, quick hands, good length and great mobility to compensate for his lack of size at the 4 or even the 5, as well as the mindset of playing "big" (box out, make the correct defensive rotations, crash the glass, play with a high motor, etc). Hayward and Tatum lack quite a few of the above qualities, and more importantly the mindset of playing as a big to slide up to the 4 full time imo.

[footey]

Our defense will be bottom 10 if hayward or tatum start at pf.

Well, depends on the rest of the team, but with a qualify defensive 5 like Adams and two good defensive guards like Smart/Brown? That would be a very good NBA defense I think. I should think the offense would be their achilles heel.

Heck, last season Horford played 5 most of the time - Baynes only played ~800 minutes and few of those along Horford. Most of the lineups had Hayward/Tatum/Morris at the 4. And the team still had the 7th best defense in the league - in spite of a weaker defender like Irving at the 1. Do you think Morris is a much better defender than Hayward/Tatum at the 4?

Here are the best defensive 5-men lineups for Boston last season among those used at least 50 minutes. At bold, the two forwards (3 and 4):

A. Horford, G. Hayward, .K. Irving, M. Morris, M. Smart

D. Theis, G. Hayward, T. Rozier, J. Brown, J. Tatum

A. Horford, K. Irving, M. Morris, M. Smart, J. Brown

A. Horford, K. Irving, M. Smart, J. Brown, J. Tatum

A. Horford, G. Hayward, K. Irving, J. Brown, J. Tatum

A. Horford, M. Morris, M. Smart, T. Rozier, J. Tatum

G. Hayward, K. Irving, T. Rozier, J. Brown, D. Theis

A. Horford, G. Hayward, K. Irving, M. Morris, J. Tatum

G. Hayward, M. Morris, T. Rozier, J. Brown, D. Theis

https://stats.nba.com/lineups/advanced/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*BOS:MIN*GE*50&sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1


That said, I'm not convinced that absorbing Adams contract is the way to go.

TP for this. I think lots of people dismiss the idea because neither are a traditional 4, which isn't really how Brad Stevens rolls.

I like Adams, but I am biased towards a big Kiwi bruiser. I trust Ainge to find an approproate starting centre

It's not just about Hayward or Tatum not being a traditional 4. They don't have qualities that allow them to be a full time 4, not even as a modern 4 . Take Draymond Green for example. Although he's undersized for a PF/C, he has good strength, high IQ, quick hands, good length and great mobility to compensate for his lack of size at the 4 or even the 5, as well as the mindset of playing "big" (box out, make the correct defensive rotations, crash the glass, play with a high motor, etc). Hayward and Tatum lack quite a few of the above qualities, and more importantly the mindset of playing as a big to slide up to the 4 full time imo.

TP, this is a good description of qualities of a good 4/5, and agree that Hayward and Tatum lack the physical strength to manage that position for long stretches. I think they have high IQ, good hands, so you exaggerate a bit, but I still think you capture the essence of the profile of a modern 4/5.

[Somebody]

Our defense will be bottom 10 if hayward or tatum start at pf.

Well, depends on the rest of the team, but with a qualify defensive 5 like Adams and two good defensive guards like Smart/Brown? That would be a very good NBA defense I think. I should think the offense would be their achilles heel.

Heck, last season Horford played 5 most of the time - Baynes only played ~800 minutes and few of those along Horford. Most of the lineups had Hayward/Tatum/Morris at the 4. And the team still had the 7th best defense in the league - in spite of a weaker defender like Irving at the 1. Do you think Morris is a much better defender than Hayward/Tatum at the 4?

Here are the best defensive 5-men lineups for Boston last season among those used at least 50 minutes. At bold, the two forwards (3 and 4):

A. Horford, G. Hayward, .K. Irving, M. Morris, M. Smart

D. Theis, G. Hayward, T. Rozier, J. Brown, J. Tatum

A. Horford, K. Irving, M. Morris, M. Smart, J. Brown

A. Horford, K. Irving, M. Smart, J. Brown, J. Tatum

A. Horford, G. Hayward, K. Irving, J. Brown, J. Tatum

A. Horford, M. Morris, M. Smart, T. Rozier, J. Tatum

G. Hayward, K. Irving, T. Rozier, J. Brown, D. Theis

A. Horford, G. Hayward, K. Irving, M. Morris, J. Tatum

G. Hayward, M. Morris, T. Rozier, J. Brown, D. Theis

https://stats.nba.com/lineups/advanced/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*BOS:MIN*GE*50&sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1


That said, I'm not convinced that absorbing Adams contract is the way to go.

TP for this. I think lots of people dismiss the idea because neither are a traditional 4, which isn't really how Brad Stevens rolls.

I like Adams, but I am biased towards a big Kiwi bruiser. I trust Ainge to find an approproate starting centre

It's not just about Hayward or Tatum not being a traditional 4. They don't have qualities that allow them to be a full time 4, not even as a modern 4 . Take Draymond Green for example. Although he's undersized for a PF/C, he has good strength, high IQ, quick hands, good length and great mobility to compensate for his lack of size at the 4 or even the 5, as well as the mindset of playing "big" (box out, make the correct defensive rotations, crash the glass, play with a high motor, etc). Hayward and Tatum lack quite a few of the above qualities, and more importantly the mindset of playing as a big to slide up to the 4 full time imo.

TP, this is a good description of qualities of a good 4/5, and agree that Hayward and Tatum lack the physical strength to manage that position for long stretches. I think they have high IQ, good hands, so you exaggerate a bit, but I still think you capture the essence of the profile of a modern 4/5.

They do have good IQs and good hands, but not when they're playing as big men. I left out that skills like these change when you change positions, eg. high IQ as a perimeter player doesn't mean that you magically know how to box out, rotate defensively and crash the glass like a big man does, and good hands for a perimeter player doesn't mean that you can deflect passes or poke the ball loose from players driving to the rim as a big man in the middle of the paint. More of an application issue, but it's a significant issue nonetheless.