Trade Irving for the sake of the team

[tazzmaniac]

Everyone plays better. Team defense is better. Hayward actually gets to shoot/make plays.... this team is not built for Irving and vice versa

Trade Irving for multiple 1sts and Jamal Murray or Gary Harris or Buddy Hield or Dennis Smith Jr.

Irving will be a free agent so teams aren't going to give up much for him just to seem him leave at the end of the season.   

[Moranis]

Boston is now 2-1 (66.7%) without Irving this year and is 20-14 (58.8%) with him.  Last year Boston was 41-19 (68.3%) with Irving and 14-8 (63.6%) without him, but that obviously includes the unsustainable 15-2 start (Irving missed a win in that streak).  If you take out the 16-2 start, then Boston was 26-17 (60.4%) with Irving and 13-8 (61.9%) without him.   Boston went 11-8 (57.9%) in the playoffs last year all without Irving and was obviously 1 game away from the NBA Finals. 
 
There is starting to be enough of a sample size to show that while Boston might not be better without Irving, they aren't appreciably worse either, such that trading Irving and getting assets might actually be the sound move, especially when you consider you won't have to pay him for the next 5 years to the tune of 188 million dollars. 

And none of that takes into account what happened in Cleveland where the Cavs basically replaced Irving with an injured partial season of IT4, George Hill, or quite frankly no one at all and yet won 1 less game than the prior season and were still in the NBA Finals despite losing Irving.  All of that is with the Cavs being a complete train wreck with a near complete roster upheaval in the off season and in the middle of the season.  Irving clearly didn't affect the actual wins and losses all that much on the Cavs. 

Put all that together and you can paint a pretty easy picture that while Irving is a masterful scorer he doesn't actually do much for the wins and losses of any team he plays on.  That maybe isn't a guy you should pay 38ish million dollars a year for the next 5 years, especially when you factor in how many games he actually misses.  He has already ended multiple seasons on the IR, played 75 games just once (and only has 2 other seasons over 70), has had multiple knee surgeries, and is generally very prone to missing games.

[ederson]

I don't have any numbers so i could be completely wrong on this but i think you can say tha same about every player.

There is no clear absolute leader like in most other teams without whom the team struggles.

[gouki88]

Rofl, I’ve never seen such a number of obdurate posts in one thread by less than a handful of posters. Crazy stuff.

[Green-18]

Boston is now 2-1 (66.7%) without Irving this year and is 20-14 (58.8%) with him.  Last year Boston was 41-19 (68.3%) with Irving and 14-8 (63.6%) without him, but that obviously includes the unsustainable 15-2 start (Irving missed a win in that streak).  If you take out the 16-2 start, then Boston was 26-17 (60.4%) with Irving and 13-8 (61.9%) without him.   Boston went 11-8 (57.9%) in the playoffs last year all without Irving and was obviously 1 game away from the NBA Finals. 
 
There is starting to be enough of a sample size to show that while Boston might not be better without Irving, they aren't appreciably worse either, such that trading Irving and getting assets might actually be the sound move, especially when you consider you won't have to pay him for the next 5 years to the tune of 188 million dollars. 

And none of that takes into account what happened in Cleveland where the Cavs basically replaced Irving with an injured partial season of IT4, George Hill, or quite frankly no one at all and yet won 1 less game than the prior season and were still in the NBA Finals despite losing Irving.  All of that is with the Cavs being a complete train wreck with a near complete roster upheaval in the off season and in the middle of the season.  Irving clearly didn't affect the actual wins and losses all that much on the Cavs. 

Put all that together and you can paint a pretty easy picture that while Irving is a masterful scorer he doesn't actually do much for the wins and losses of any team he plays on.  That maybe isn't a guy you should pay 38ish million dollars a year for the next 5 years, especially when you factor in how many games he actually misses.  He has already ended multiple seasons on the IR, played 75 games just once (and only has 2 other seasons over 70), has had multiple knee surgeries, and is generally very prone to missing games.

You present a sound argument for sure.  It's very easy to suggest that Irving's individual statistics don't impact winning, at least not at an elite level. My issue is that he's clearly putting in the effort to acclimate himself to Brad's system, and our team has performed at a high level when he's on the court.  This team could/would have more wins if Kyrie's minutes weren't being managed for the long haul.  His effort and ability to impact winning is moving in the right direction. 

There is also way too many other variables to conclude that Irving is the issue.  Jaylen has been playing through injuries and Hayward has taken quite a while to work himself back into form.  As for Rozier, he is a classic example of a player who needs extended minutes to be effective on a consistent basis.  Our team could use a veteran bench guard who provides consistency on limited minutes.

I expect Hayward to change the entire trajectory of this team if he can return to 75-80% of his old self.  An improvement in making open shots will go a long way towards making this team a legit contender in the East.   

[knuckleballer]

Everyone plays better. Team defense is better. Hayward actually gets to shoot/make plays.... this team is not built for Irving and vice versa

Trade Irving for multiple 1sts and Jamal Murray or Gary Harris or Buddy Hield or Dennis Smith Jr.

TriBoy - I could not agree more. But then, I am just the annoying guy from Tennessee who forum members think actually hates Kyrie Irving as a human being because I don't think his playing style, or his general self-centered nature, is going to lead us to any titles.

Good Luck with your idea - but you will be bombarded on here for any criticism of Sir Kyrie.

I dont care... I see it as it is

"Team" always comes 1st .... not any ind player.... unless you are Jordan

What is wrong with this team/underachieving is due to one player Irving or group (depends on the fan)....  he will be out for at least a week. Lets see how this team performs and how the underachievers do (like Rozy, Brown, Hayward did tonight)

Then why does the team play so much worse when Kyrie is resting on the bench?

https://nesn.com/2018/12/celtics-notes-boston-continues-to-struggle-when-kyrie-irving-goes-to-bench/
"Boston currently is 13.7 points better with Kyrie Irving on the floor, according to Cleaning The Glass"

The rest of the team does play more aggressively and confidently when Kyrie doesn't start, but not when he's resting on the bench.  That's not his fault.  Morris is the only one who's consistently aggressive whether Kyrie plays or not.  That's not Kyrie's fault.  The rest of the guys and Brad need to figure this out.  They are not going to contend without him.

[Androslav]

Everyone plays better. Team defense is better. Hayward actually gets to shoot/make plays.... this team is not built for Irving and vice versa

Trade Irving for multiple 1sts and Jamal Murray or Gary Harris or Buddy Hield or Dennis Smith Jr.

TriBoy - I could not agree more. But then, I am just the annoying guy from Tennessee who forum members think actually hates Kyrie Irving as a human being because I don't think his playing style, or his general self-centered nature, is going to lead us to any titles.

Good Luck with your idea - but you will be bombarded on here for any criticism of Sir Kyrie.

I dont care... I see it as it is

"Team" always comes 1st .... not any ind player.... unless you are Jordan

What is wrong with this team/underachieving is due to one player Irving or group (depends on the fan)....  he will be out for at least a week. Lets see how this team performs and how the underachievers do (like Rozy, Brown, Hayward did tonight)

Then why does the team play so much worse when Kyrie is resting on the bench?

https://nesn.com/2018/12/celtics-notes-boston-continues-to-struggle-when-kyrie-irving-goes-to-bench/
"Boston currently is 13.7 points better with Kyrie Irving on the floor, according to Cleaning The Glass"

The rest of the team does play more aggressively and confidently when Kyrie doesn't start, but not when he's resting on the bench.  That's not his fault.  Morris is the only one who's consistently aggressive whether Kyrie plays or not.  That's not Kyrie's fault.  The rest of the guys and Brad need to figure this out.  They are not going to contend without him.

I really thought that we, as a CS, universally understand that Kyrie makes this team better.
Even without the use of numbers, it is that obvious.
What games are you looking guys?
The Nets and Suns instead of Celtics?

[Green-18]

Everyone plays better. Team defense is better. Hayward actually gets to shoot/make plays.... this team is not built for Irving and vice versa

Trade Irving for multiple 1sts and Jamal Murray or Gary Harris or Buddy Hield or Dennis Smith Jr.

TriBoy - I could not agree more. But then, I am just the annoying guy from Tennessee who forum members think actually hates Kyrie Irving as a human being because I don't think his playing style, or his general self-centered nature, is going to lead us to any titles.

Good Luck with your idea - but you will be bombarded on here for any criticism of Sir Kyrie.

I dont care... I see it as it is

"Team" always comes 1st .... not any ind player.... unless you are Jordan

What is wrong with this team/underachieving is due to one player Irving or group (depends on the fan)....  he will be out for at least a week. Lets see how this team performs and how the underachievers do (like Rozy, Brown, Hayward did tonight)

Then why does the team play so much worse when Kyrie is resting on the bench?

https://nesn.com/2018/12/celtics-notes-boston-continues-to-struggle-when-kyrie-irving-goes-to-bench/
"Boston currently is 13.7 points better with Kyrie Irving on the floor, according to Cleaning The Glass"

The rest of the team does play more aggressively and confidently when Kyrie doesn't start, but not when he's resting on the bench.  That's not his fault.  Morris is the only one who's consistently aggressive whether Kyrie plays or not.  That's not Kyrie's fault.  The rest of the guys and Brad need to figure this out.  They are not going to contend without him.

Pretty much.  I think this will eventually sort itself out, but it's certainly not Kyrie's fault that the other guys are struggling to adapt to different roles.  Morris is a perfect example of a player who provides consistency regardless of his minutes.  There are plenty of veteran role players in the NBA who are capable of adapting to different situations.  Our young guys are simply struggling to find a balance, which is a normal part of the growth process.  Tatum, Brown, and Rozier are all dealing with a unique situation, especially after last years playoff run. 

I still believe that this team will figure it out when the playoffs arrive.   

[Roy H.]

Trading Kyrie for Kawhi and starting Rozier might have made sense.

Trading Kyrie as a mid-season rental and starting Rozier is foolhardy.

[Moranis]

Trading Kyrie for Kawhi and starting Rozier might have made sense.

Trading Kyrie as a mid-season rental and starting Rozier is foolhardy.

doesn't it depend on the package.  What about something like this?

Boston - Davis, Moore
New York - Irving
New Orleans - Brown, Yabu, Kanter, Knox, Ntkilina, Bos 1st, NY top 5 protected 1st

That would seemingly make sense for all 3 teams.  I mean I get it would be nice to have Davis with Irving, but if it is was one or the other I'd much rather have Davis even at the expense of other assets. 

So post trade

Boston
PG - Rozier, Smart, Wanamaker
SG - Hayward, Smart, Moore
SF - Tatum, Hayward, Semi
PF - Davis, Morris, Theis
C - Horford, Baynes, Williams

I think that team is more likely to not only win the east but also the championship.  That team has a bit more certainty this summer since Davis is locked up next year. 

[Green-18]

Trading Kyrie for Kawhi and starting Rozier might have made sense.

Trading Kyrie as a mid-season rental and starting Rozier is foolhardy.

I believe many of the same issues with chemistry would exist with Kawhi.  He's currently playing 3 more MPG than Kyrie with a slightly higher usage rate.  It works perfectly in Toronto because Lowry, Ibaka, Siakam, Green, VanVleet, Anunoby, and Valanciunas are content as a role players.  None of them have "Superstar" potential and they all bring a unique skill set to the table.     

Hayward and Brown would still struggle to find their groove if Kawhi was around.  The same can be said for Tatum.  Brad would manage Kawhi's minutes similarly to Irving, and our team would struggle while he's on the bench.  There also might be some resentment from the young players.   

[Silky]

Its obvious that the only sensible thing to do is to make the following happen.

Trade Kyrie for Davis. (Davis demands a trade to Boston and only Boston)

Then in the offseason have Kyrie demand a s&T trade to Boston for Brown, Rozier S&T and Horford.

Then resign Morris 3 years.
Continue to groom Williams as the Center of the future

Irving/Draft/Wannamaker
Hayward/Smart/Draft
Tatum/Semi/Draft
Morris/Theis/Draft
Davis/Baynes/Williams.

[Green-18]

Where did D.O.S. go with his Small Sample Size monster meme? Because we could sure use that about now.

Are people literally already forgetting the monster 40/10 Christmas game where Kyrie virtually singlehandedly won us the game?? In today’s game, you don’t win championships without a player of Kyrie’s caliber, and right now we don’t have anyone else near that level of player.

you are mainly "starstruck" and is unable to see that.... Hayward can't get his game going (because he is more than a spot up shooter), same for Brown, Rozier, Tatum in some ways...

Maybe the reason Kyrie single handedly won us that game is because he was the guy that put the team in that situation in the first place.....the team synergy plain out stinks with him on the floor. And I can't believe my eyes but he is as bad on the defensive end as IT4. Maybe even worst.... just no 2nd effort. No rebounds, no steals, no in your face defense.....  like I have said many times, PG defense is the first line of defense. Once that is weak/breaks down..... the rest of the team has to compensate

The recipe to properly build a team around a PG like Irving is to have a player like a Williams on C (to bail out Kyrie),  Horford at PF (3 and D),  Ariza at SF (3 and D),  Beal at SG (3 and D).....  Let Irving basically do whatever he wants on the offensive end

The recipe to properly build a team around CBS/Hayward is this current roster without Irving/Rondo type excessive ball handling/ball holders and substitute with Murray, Hield, Beal who are system guards

Hayward's last 30 point game was with Kyrie in the lineup. The only thing holding him back from putting up that effort consistently is the major injury he had and the 2 surgeries needed to fix it.

P.S. Kyrie is averaging a career high in rebounds (including a team best 10 in the game you questioned his effort in), he's 2nd on the team in steals, he's one of the team leaders in charges taken and deflections. He's not going to make any All defensive teams but saying he's as bad as IT makes me wonder if you've actually watched the games at all.

Agreed.  The eye test and statistics show that Kyrie is putting in plenty of effort on defense.  He's also been super aggressive in crashing the boards and fighting for loose balls. 

I'm not the biggest fan of RPM, but Kyrie currently ranks #8 for PG's in defensive real plus/minus.  Marcus Smart is #1 by far, and Rozier ranks #29.  Terry is the only rotation player to post a negative drpm.  These stats are obviously skewed based upon different lineups and minutes.  However, they still indicate that Kyrie is putting in more effort on defensive than previous years. 

Interestingly enough, our best defensive lineup is also our worst offensive lineup.  Irving, Brown, Hayward, Tatum, and Horford have played 139 minutes together.  During this time their offensive rating is 90.9 and defensive rating is 94.7.  Scoring droughts are still my biggest concern with this team.  I'm not worried about the defense holding us back in the playoffs.

[IDreamCeltics]

Where did D.O.S. go with his Small Sample Size monster meme? Because we could sure use that about now.

Are people literally already forgetting the monster 40/10 Christmas game where Kyrie virtually singlehandedly won us the game?? In today’s game, you don’t win championships without a player of Kyrie’s caliber, and right now we don’t have anyone else near that level of player.

you are mainly "starstruck" and is unable to see that.... Hayward can't get his game going (because he is more than a spot up shooter), same for Brown, Rozier, Tatum in some ways...

Maybe the reason Kyrie single handedly won us that game is because he was the guy that put the team in that situation in the first place.....the team synergy plain out stinks with him on the floor. And I can't believe my eyes but he is as bad on the defensive end as IT4. Maybe even worst.... just no 2nd effort. No rebounds, no steals, no in your face defense.....  like I have said many times, PG defense is the first line of defense. Once that is weak/breaks down..... the rest of the team has to compensate

The recipe to properly build a team around a PG like Irving is to have a player like a Williams on C (to bail out Kyrie),  Horford at PF (3 and D),  Ariza at SF (3 and D),  Beal at SG (3 and D).....  Let Irving basically do whatever he wants on the offensive end

The recipe to properly build a team around CBS/Hayward is this current roster without Irving/Rondo type excessive ball handling/ball holders and substitute with Murray, Hield, Beal who are system guards

I for one think it's an idea worth considering.  You're likely to encounter a lot of pushback from the army of posters that are allowed to openly troll any outside the box thinking on this site - but bullies exist everywhere.

I've been under the impression that the Celtics desperately need a legit second ball handler who can penetrate and pass, but your point that Kyrie doesn't improve the play of his teammates is probably valid since we've seen them all play better without his presence.

[Androslav]

Booker and Ayton average more points and assists on Suns then they would if Kyrie was on a team.
But it would be a mistake of logic to think wouldn't play better with Kyrie because their averages would be lower.

One more thing, our offense is painfully average whenever Kyrie is off the floor.
Only with him, it becomes a potent unit.