CelticsStrong
Around the League => Around the NBA => Topic started by: Androslav on June 07, 2018, 03:08:59 AM
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In the never-ending media discussion, MJ vs LJ debate is more present as LeBron's career is entering its final phase.
Everyone has their own opinion.
I still rank MJ above all. I saw his domination over opponents; both physical and mental, and then he repeated it until he got bored. Twice.
In my memories, he destroyed some guys thoroughly, like destroyed and then some. Drexler, Barkley, Ewing, Malone/Stockton, but in truth the whole league.
Along the same lines, I could easily imagine the two meeting in a playoff round, and then MJ maniacally competitive as he is, eats LBJs liver. Hannibal Lecter, Kayser Soze style. And in the end, LeBron ends up being remembered as the one who challenged Mike and failed miserably as all the others.
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Minor league pitchers challenged Jordan all the time and rarely failed
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FWIW, MJ would get swept by this Warriors team too.
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FWIW, MJ would get swept by this Warriors team too.
Celtics without Kyrie and Gordon wouldn't get swept by Warriors.
Mike wouldn't too, maybe if he had the 86' team or something like that.
His 90ies teams, the unstopabulls? Not-a-chance.
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Minor league pitchers challenged Jordan all the time and rarely failed
Yea ;)
Mike also can't swim, as far as I know, so I would severely outswim him.
But lets stick to orange balls and rims.
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I voted other, but that’s a different discussion.
For me, LeBron would have to drastically change his ways to become the GOAT. Chiefly, he’d have to start playing defence for more than 20% of the game. MJ was an absolute terror defensively night in night out - with the tools LBJ has he should be too, but he chooses to rest on that end instead.
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FWIW, MJ would get swept by this Warriors team too.
No they won't, especially if GSW is playing with the illegal defense and hand check rules.
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Jordan won when it mattered more and took over games more.
LeBron is more of a Wilt type in that he is a juggernaut, who produces out of this world stats but does not always win when it matters most. My hate is off to him this year though because he has really carried a crappy team to the finals.
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FWIW, MJ would get swept by this Warriors team too.
The Warriors have yet to sweep a single series this year, but they would sweep Jordan's Bulls? Hmm. Maybe it's time to go back into retirement.
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Jordan won when it mattered more and took over games more.
LeBron is more of a Wilt type in that he is a juggernaut, who produces out of this world stats but does not always win when it matters most. My hate is off to him this year though because he has really carried a crappy team to the finals.
TP.
I see what you mean, he is kind of bigger than his own team and that is Witlish. He also has otherworldly body and strength, just like Wilt had. Even though Mike really WAS the league after Bird/Magic era, when BB took the whole world after Barcelona '92, but I never saw him as bigger than his own team. Like there was Mike, but also Scotty, Horace, Dennis, Phi...With Lebron its always Lebron the player/Gm/coach, others are just like extras passing around him.
I respect LBJ for this finals appearance too, even though I find his 2007 finals team weaker than this 2018 version. Lebron had the older software, but fresher and more explosive hardware. Still, somehow this team that has an Allstar and ex-champs is considered his worst. I think that is an example of the recency bias.
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MJ just plain had "it" more than LeBron ever will. No stats can ever quantify the "it" factor. "It" is purely subjective, but once one recognizes "it" in one person, he can recognize the "it" deficiency in others.
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MJ just plain had "it" more than LeBron ever will. No stats can ever quantify the "it" factor. "It" is purely subjective, but once one recognizes "it" in one person, he can recognize the "it" deficiency in others.
Exactly. You can't point to anything as evidence for "it", but it's definitely there with MJ
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FWIW, MJ would get swept by this Warriors team too.
Celtics without Kyrie and Gordon wouldn't get swept by Warriors.
Mike wouldn't too, maybe if he had the 86' team or something like that.
His 90ies teams, the unstopabulls? Not-a-chance.
No chance Jordan gets swept by the Warriors.
MJ. End of discussion.
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FWIW, MJ would get swept by this Warriors team too.
See I'm not so sure. If you put him with the same teammates then I can agree but that misses something much larger.
MJ would not have supported TT in getting that huge contract, he would have forced him out of town if he wouldn't take less. Same with JR, but if JR was still there, no way in hell does MJ let him dribble the ball out to the halfway line. He'd be ripping the ball out of JRs hands the moment he turned away from the basket.
Lebron made this team what it is, the players are here because he wanted them there. MJ never had that power nor desired it, that made him greater.
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I've got a top 5: Russell, Bird, Magic, Jordan, Lebron. I think any of those 5 could be the GOAT. If I'm in a charitable mood, Kareem can make it a top 6 some days.
MJ is probably the GOAT but I think opening up the discussion is good. For too long, everyone has talked as though MJ's status is unimpeachable and no one is even close to his level. I don't think that's true.
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FWIW, MJ would get swept by this Warriors team too.
Celtics without Kyrie and Gordon wouldn't get swept by Warriors.
Mike wouldn't too, maybe if he had the 86' team or something like that.
His 90ies teams, the unstopabulls? Not-a-chance.
No chance Jordan gets swept by the Warriors.
MJ. End of discussion.
No way MJ and Pippen get swept by the Warriors.
MJ and Kevin Love? Probably.
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FWIW, MJ would get swept by this Warriors team too.
Celtics without Kyrie and Gordon wouldn't get swept by Warriors.
Mike wouldn't too, maybe if he had the 86' team or something like that.
His 90ies teams, the unstopabulls? Not-a-chance.
No chance Jordan gets swept by the Warriors.
MJ. End of discussion.
No way MJ and Pippen get swept by the Warriors.
MJ and Kevin Love? Probably.
Yep and on the flipside I'd fee pretty comfortable picking a James/Pippen led team to beat the Warriors given I think those 2 are far more capable of shutting down Durant than just about any other duo in history (even if you just swapped Pippen and Love, I wouldn't bet against the Cavs in that scenario - I mean they have played 3 very tight games in this series without someone like Pippen).
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FWIW, MJ would get swept by this Warriors team too.
Celtics without Kyrie and Gordon wouldn't get swept by Warriors.
Mike wouldn't too, maybe if he had the 86' team or something like that.
His 90ies teams, the unstopabulls? Not-a-chance.
No chance Jordan gets swept by the Warriors.
MJ. End of discussion.
No way MJ and Pippen get swept by the Warriors.
MJ and Kevin Love? Probably.
Yep and on the flipside I'd fee pretty comfortable picking a James/Pippen led team to beat the Warriors given I think those 2 are far more capable of shutting down Durant than just about any other duo in history (even if you just swapped Pippen and Love, I wouldn't bet against the Cavs in that scenario - I mean they have played 3 very tight games in this series without someone like Pippen).
It would've been a good match up. I tend to think the '96 Bulls would've struggled in today's game because they didn't have enough shooting but Jordan and Harper probably could've extended their range if they were playing today and Kukoc would've taken more. They would've been the perfect switch everything team to defend the Warriors. Start with Harper on Curry, Jordan on Klay, Pippen on Durant, Rodman on Draymond and you don't worry about a mismatch too much for anyone.
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I've always been a strict defender of Jordan in this debate. However, I feel the need to soften my stance against James after watching this playoff run. LeBron has played at a GOAT level throughout the duration of the 2018 postseason. It's difficult to imagine someone playing better with the same supporting case. His stats don't feel as hollow as previous years where he failed to win the title.
THIS version of LeBron is equivalent to any player that I've ever seen. He's been fearless, efficient, and clutch. All of this while playing an insane number of minutes.
Jordan is still the GOAT but LeBron has improved his legacy in my eyes.
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I've got a top 5: Russell, Bird, Magic, Jordan, Lebron. I think any of those 5 could be the GOAT. If I'm in a charitable mood, Kareem can make it a top 6 some days.
MJ is probably the GOAT but I think opening up the discussion is good. For too long, everyone has talked as though MJ's status is unimpeachable and no one is even close to his level. I don't think that's true.
swap out Lebron for Wilt and that would be my top 5 with Russell as GOAT.
Russell won in college and pros. not just when the top players were out of the game like Jordan did (didn't win until Larry and Magic were at the tail end of their careers and still couldn't get by Detroit without a real "superstar" on their team for a few years) but throughout his entire NBA career when another top-5-of-all-time player was playing against him (Wilt).
I'm definitely in the minority but as amazing as Jordan's career was, I'd take Russell, Bird, Magic and probably Wilt over Jordan if I had a chance to build a team with everyone in their primes. Jordan was the ultimate "me" player (Wilt's right there though). He got his but didn't really make his teammates better (other than being a decoy leaving them freer to do their thing). The others made their teammates better. Watch tapes of their games if you're able to -- you can't help but come away amazed at what they did game in and game out.
Lebron, top 10 player but he doesn't crack the top 5. 6, maybe 7. depends on whether my Laker hate is particularly sharp that day and I drop Kareem from 6 to 7.
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FWIW, MJ would get swept by this Warriors team too.
Celtics without Kyrie and Gordon wouldn't get swept by Warriors.
Mike wouldn't too, maybe if he had the 86' team or something like that.
His 90ies teams, the unstopabulls? Not-a-chance.
No chance Jordan gets swept by the Warriors.
MJ. End of discussion.
No way MJ and Pippen get swept by the Warriors.
MJ and Kevin Love? Probably.
Yep and on the flipside I'd fee pretty comfortable picking a James/Pippen led team to beat the Warriors given I think those 2 are far more capable of shutting down Durant than just about any other duo in history (even if you just swapped Pippen and Love, I wouldn't bet against the Cavs in that scenario - I mean they have played 3 very tight games in this series without someone like Pippen).
It would've been a good matchup. I tend to think the '96 Bulls would've struggled in today's game because they didn't have enough shooting but Jordan and Harper probably could've extended their range if they were playing today and Kukoc would've taken more. They would've been the perfect switch everything team to defend the Warriors. Start with Harper on Curry, Jordan on Klay, Pippen on Durant, Rodman on Draymond and you don't worry about a mismatch too much for anyone.
Anyone remember Pip on Mark Jackson?
I felt sorry for the guy. He was dribbling with his back to the basket 90 feet from the rim.
That's why Phil liked big guards and multiple ballhandlers.
However, I don't believe that comparing their teams, from different eras will help their individual, who is the better, debate. It creates sideways that lead away from the initial question.
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FWIW, MJ would get swept by this Warriors team too.
Celtics without Kyrie and Gordon wouldn't get swept by Warriors.
Mike wouldn't too, maybe if he had the 86' team or something like that.
His 90ies teams, the unstopabulls? Not-a-chance.
No chance Jordan gets swept by the Warriors.
MJ. End of discussion.
No way MJ and Pippen get swept by the Warriors.
MJ and Kevin Love? Probably.
Yep and on the flipside I'd fee pretty comfortable picking a James/Pippen led team to beat the Warriors given I think those 2 are far more capable of shutting down Durant than just about any other duo in history (even if you just swapped Pippen and Love, I wouldn't bet against the Cavs in that scenario - I mean they have played 3 very tight games in this series without someone like Pippen).
My responce to the post from the last night:
I can agree with PP being a lesser player to LBJ and Durant. But from a different perspective:
How many rings does prime PP win in 4 years with the Heatles? 2? What about their year one Vs Dallas?
Does PP win one last year with the Warriors, acting as KD?
I'd argue that he wins the same number of chips. Fit/timing are huge variables, proven that PP was seen as a great only once the whole team became great.
Pierce, when in prime, could be a No1. option on a championship team and play good defense.
Moranis using my logic:
Imitation - the ultimate form of compliment!
Tnq, appreciate it.
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FWIW, MJ would get swept by this Warriors team too.
Celtics without Kyrie and Gordon wouldn't get swept by Warriors.
Mike wouldn't too, maybe if he had the 86' team or something like that.
His 90ies teams, the unstopabulls? Not-a-chance.
No chance Jordan gets swept by the Warriors.
MJ. End of discussion.
No way MJ and Pippen get swept by the Warriors.
MJ and Kevin Love? Probably.
Yep and on the flipside I'd fee pretty comfortable picking a James/Pippen led team to beat the Warriors given I think those 2 are far more capable of shutting down Durant than just about any other duo in history (even if you just swapped Pippen and Love, I wouldn't bet against the Cavs in that scenario - I mean they have played 3 very tight games in this series without someone like Pippen).
LOL. They got blown out in game 2, and they're down 3-0 having lost by 12 points a game. They have not played "3 very tight games".
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FWIW, MJ would get swept by this Warriors team too.
Celtics without Kyrie and Gordon wouldn't get swept by Warriors.
Mike wouldn't too, maybe if he had the 86' team or something like that.
His 90ies teams, the unstopabulls? Not-a-chance.
No chance Jordan gets swept by the Warriors.
MJ. End of discussion.
No way MJ and Pippen get swept by the Warriors.
MJ and Kevin Love? Probably.
Yep and on the flipside I'd fee pretty comfortable picking a James/Pippen led team to beat the Warriors given I think those 2 are far more capable of shutting down Durant than just about any other duo in history (even if you just swapped Pippen and Love, I wouldn't bet against the Cavs in that scenario - I mean they have played 3 very tight games in this series without someone like Pippen).
LOL. They got blown out in game 2, and they're down 3-0 having lost by 12 points a game. They have not played "3 very tight games".
They were down by 7 in the 4th quarter of game 2. Curry caught fire and they blew the doors off the game, but that was a close enough game for 3/4's of the game. Game 1 was a 10 point game, but it was in OT and we all know how that one finished in regulation. They were down a point with under 2 minutes left in the game last night. All of those games were winnable in the 4th quarter, that makes them tight games.
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Jordan played defense every possession...LBJ does not
Jordan was a better teammate and leader
Jordan is 6-0 on the biggest of stages.
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Jordan was a better teammate
That might be stretching it.
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FWIW, MJ would get swept by this Warriors team too.
Celtics without Kyrie and Gordon wouldn't get swept by Warriors.
Mike wouldn't too, maybe if he had the 86' team or something like that.
His 90ies teams, the unstopabulls? Not-a-chance.
No chance Jordan gets swept by the Warriors.
MJ. End of discussion.
No way MJ and Pippen get swept by the Warriors.
MJ and Kevin Love? Probably.
Yep and on the flipside I'd fee pretty comfortable picking a James/Pippen led team to beat the Warriors given I think those 2 are far more capable of shutting down Durant than just about any other duo in history (even if you just swapped Pippen and Love, I wouldn't bet against the Cavs in that scenario - I mean they have played 3 very tight games in this series without someone like Pippen).
LOL. They got blown out in game 2, and they're down 3-0 having lost by 12 points a game. They have not played "3 very tight games".
They were down by 7 in the 4th quarter of game 2. Curry caught fire and they blew the doors off the game, but that was a close enough game for 3/4's of the game. Game 1 was a 10 point game, but it was in OT and we all know how that one finished in regulation. They were down a point with under 2 minutes left in the game last night. All of those games were winnable in the 4th quarter, that makes them tight games.
The whole game counts. You don't get to have your doors blown off in the fourth quarter and say it was a tight game. Celtics didn't lose a tight game 7 in ECF. Cavs sure as heck didn't in game 2.
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FWIW, MJ would get swept by this Warriors team too.
Celtics without Kyrie and Gordon wouldn't get swept by Warriors.
Mike wouldn't too, maybe if he had the 86' team or something like that.
His 90ies teams, the unstopabulls? Not-a-chance.
No chance Jordan gets swept by the Warriors.
MJ. End of discussion.
No way MJ and Pippen get swept by the Warriors.
MJ and Kevin Love? Probably.
Yep and on the flipside I'd fee pretty comfortable picking a James/Pippen led team to beat the Warriors given I think those 2 are far more capable of shutting down Durant than just about any other duo in history (even if you just swapped Pippen and Love, I wouldn't bet against the Cavs in that scenario - I mean they have played 3 very tight games in this series without someone like Pippen).
LOL. They got blown out in game 2, and they're down 3-0 having lost by 12 points a game. They have not played "3 very tight games".
They were down by 7 in the 4th quarter of game 2. Curry caught fire and they blew the doors off the game, but that was a close enough game for 3/4's of the game. Game 1 was a 10 point game, but it was in OT and we all know how that one finished in regulation. They were down a point with under 2 minutes left in the game last night. All of those games were winnable in the 4th quarter, that makes them tight games.
The whole game counts. You don't get to have your doors blown off in the fourth quarter and say it was a tight game. Celtics didn't lose a tight game 7 in ECF. Cavs sure as heck didn't in game 2.
Just have to disagree on that one. When a game is winnable in the 4th quarter, I consider it a tight game. If the Warriors were up by 15 the whole time, not a tight game, but that just wasn't the case. It was a 5 point game at multiple times in the 3rd quarter and a 7 point game in the 4th quarter. That game was there for Cleveland to take, they just keep running out of gas in all these games because they just don't have enough top end talent.
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Jordan played defense every possession...LBJ does not
Jordan was a better teammate and leader
Jordan is 6-0 on the biggest of stages.
Jordan playing defense every possession is the funniest thing I've read on here in a very long time.
Jordan most certainly was not a better teammate and it is arguable that he was a better leader. Different type of leader, but certainly arguable he was better.
Jordan also failed to reach the Finals 9 of his 15 seasons and got his 6 wins in the weakest (or 2nd weakest) decade of basketball the sport has ever seen. I mean when he took his break, the Rockets won a title with Otis Thorpe as the 2nd best player on that team. OTIS THORPE.
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FWIW, MJ would get swept by this Warriors team too.
Celtics without Kyrie and Gordon wouldn't get swept by Warriors.
Mike wouldn't too, maybe if he had the 86' team or something like that.
His 90ies teams, the unstopabulls? Not-a-chance.
No chance Jordan gets swept by the Warriors.
MJ. End of discussion.
No way MJ and Pippen get swept by the Warriors.
MJ and Kevin Love? Probably.
Yep and on the flipside I'd fee pretty comfortable picking a James/Pippen led team to beat the Warriors given I think those 2 are far more capable of shutting down Durant than just about any other duo in history (even if you just swapped Pippen and Love, I wouldn't bet against the Cavs in that scenario - I mean they have played 3 very tight games in this series without someone like Pippen).
LOL. They got blown out in game 2, and they're down 3-0 having lost by 12 points a game. They have not played "3 very tight games".
They were down by 7 in the 4th quarter of game 2. Curry caught fire and they blew the doors off the game, but that was a close enough game for 3/4's of the game. Game 1 was a 10 point game, but it was in OT and we all know how that one finished in regulation. They were down a point with under 2 minutes left in the game last night. All of those games were winnable in the 4th quarter, that makes them tight games.
The whole game counts. You don't get to have your doors blown off in the fourth quarter and say it was a tight game. Celtics didn't lose a tight game 7 in ECF. Cavs sure as heck didn't in game 2.
Just have to disagree on that one. When a game is winnable in the 4th quarter, I consider it a tight game. If the Warriors were up by 15 the whole time, not a tight game, but that just wasn't the case. It was a 5 point game at multiple times in the 3rd quarter and a 7 point game in the 4th quarter. That game was there for Cleveland to take, they just keep running out of gas in all these games because they just don't have enough top end talent.
Wow! They were DOWN 5 in the 3rd freakin quarter. What a nail biter. :o
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Jordan played defense every possession...LBJ does not
Jordan was a better teammate and leader
Jordan is 6-0 on the biggest of stages.
Jordan playing defense every possession is the funniest thing I've read on here in a very long time.
Jordan most certainly was not a better teammate and it is arguable that he was a better leader. Different type of leader, but certainly arguable he was better.
Jordan also failed to reach the Finals 9 of his 15 seasons and got his 6 wins in the weakest (or 2nd weakest) decade of basketball the sport has ever seen. I mean when he took his break, the Rockets won a title with Otis Thorpe as the 2nd best player on that team. OTIS THORPE.
Gotta agree with all this. TP. People rarely talk about just how weak the 90's were for the league.
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Jordan played defense every possession...LBJ does not
Jordan was a better teammate and leader
Jordan is 6-0 on the biggest of stages.
Jordan playing defense every possession is the funniest thing I've read on here in a very long time.
Jordan most certainly was not a better teammate and it is arguable that he was a better leader. Different type of leader, but certainly arguable he was better.
Jordan also failed to reach the Finals 9 of his 15 seasons and got his 6 wins in the weakest (or 2nd weakest) decade of basketball the sport has ever seen. I mean when he took his break, the Rockets won a title with Otis Thorpe as the 2nd best player on that team. OTIS THORPE.
Incorrect as usual. I have to correct. Thorpe was just a cog on that team. He was basicaly standing at the dunker spot waiting. He couldn't dribble, pass or shoot, nor was he an emotional leader. Otis was just a good soldier, somewhere between the 4th and 5h best player that year. 12% usage those finals. Solid guy, but limited. IMO. Mad Max, Kenny, Cassell, Horry even Herrera off the bench had bigger or similar impact. These guys could all shoot, dribble and pass.
Also the 40s, 50s, 70s and 2000 were weaker than the 90s.
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Jordan played defense every possession...LBJ does not
Jordan was a better teammate and leader
Jordan is 6-0 on the biggest of stages.
Jordan playing defense every possession is the funniest thing I've read on here in a very long time.
Jordan most certainly was not a better teammate and it is arguable that he was a better leader. Different type of leader, but certainly arguable he was better.
Jordan also failed to reach the Finals 9 of his 15 seasons and got his 6 wins in the weakest (or 2nd weakest) decade of basketball the sport has ever seen. I mean when he took his break, the Rockets won a title with Otis Thorpe as the 2nd best player on that team. OTIS THORPE.
Incorrect as usual. I have to correct. Thorpe was just a cog on that team. He was basicaly standing at the dunker spot waiting. He couldn't dribble, pass or shoot, nor was he an emotional leader. Otis was just a good soldier, somewhere between the 4th and 5h best player that year. 12% usage those finals. Solid guy, but limited. IMO. Mad Max, Kenny, Cassell, Horry even Herrera off the bench had bigger or similar impact. These guys could all shoot, dribble and pass.
Also the 40s, 50s, 70s and 2000 were weaker than the 90s.
Otis Thorpe wasn't the 2nd offensive option, but he was absolutely the 2nd best player on that team. During the regular season he had 9.8 WS. Kenny Smith was 3rd on the team with 6.1, Horry was 4th with 5.9, and Elie was 5th with 4.2. Now during the playoffs, Horry and Thorpe had nearly identical WS (2.5 to 2.4), but the whole season is far more representative of there respective positions.
The 2000's was a much better decade than the 1990's. It isn't close. The 70's are the only possible decade on par with the crap that was the 90's. And the reason for those are obvious i.e. widespread expansion. When a league expands it initially dilutes a lot and leads to a far crappier product before it ultimately evens out. In addition, the early 90's saw a rash of the league's stars get injured (Bird), get sick (Magic), or just dramatically and suddenly age (Thomas). Leaving a vacuum of top end talent missing that should have been there.
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Tell me again how the 2000's were weaker than the 90's...? Not sure anyone would agree with that.
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Russell is the goat
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Physically Jordan played in a much tougher era. Anyone denying his greatness needs to do some research.
James is a team destroyer. Has done it twice now. So getting to the finals means something? There is a reason the Celtics do not hang banners for that. It is pointless.
Jordan was all NBA Defensive first team 9 times. Please don't give me that garbage he did play defense.
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I don't tweet but I do have twitter and this came across my feed a few weeks ago and I keep thinking about it. Someone asked Kevin Van Valkenburg (apparently an ESPN writer) what is your most biased sports opinion that you think is true no matter what? This was his answer:
Michael Jordan convinced a generation of sports fans (and athletes) that "greatness" had to be a joyless, obsessive, faux-alpha, corporate endeavor that required humiliating opponents, and 90 percent of bad sports takes can be traced back to people treating it as gospel.
I think this is right. Greatness looks a lot of different ways. Magic could be a nice guy and still be driven. Bird could be obsessive and talk trash but he didn't need the world to think he was great (just his peers). Russell could let others have the glory as long as he got the win. Tim Duncan didn't need to embarrass people.
Like I said before, Jordan is probably the GOAT. But there are real criticisms of the way he played and the way he led that have been dismissed for a long time in service of the cult of Jordan, I think.
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It’s neither of these guys. The answer is Bill Russell. Anything else is just plain wrong
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Btw those two? It's a tough question. Both have their pluses & minuses.
Too many people on here wrapped up in either recency bias or romanticism of the past.
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Jordan played defense every possession...LBJ does not
Jordan was a better teammate and leader
Jordan is 6-0 on the biggest of stages.
Jordan playing defense every possession is the funniest thing I've read on here in a very long time.
Jordan most certainly was not a better teammate and it is arguable that he was a better leader. Different type of leader, but certainly arguable he was better.
Jordan also failed to reach the Finals 9 of his 15 seasons and got his 6 wins in the weakest (or 2nd weakest) decade of basketball the sport has ever seen. I mean when he took his break, the Rockets won a title with Otis Thorpe as the 2nd best player on that team. OTIS THORPE.
Incorrect as usual. I have to correct. Thorpe was just a cog on that team. He was basicaly standing at the dunker spot waiting. He couldn't dribble, pass or shoot, nor was he an emotional leader. Otis was just a good soldier, somewhere between the 4th and 5h best player that year. 12% usage those finals. Solid guy, but limited. IMO. Mad Max, Kenny, Cassell, Horry even Herrera off the bench had bigger or similar impact. These guys could all shoot, dribble and pass.
Also the 40s, 50s, 70s and 2000 were weaker than the 90s.
Otis Thorpe wasn't the 2nd offensive option, but he was absolutely the 2nd best player on that team. During the regular season he had 9.8 WS. Kenny Smith was 3rd on the team with 6.1, Horry was 4th with 5.9, and Elie was 5th with 4.2. Now during the playoffs, Horry and Thorpe had nearly identical WS (2.5 to 2.4), but the whole season is far more representative of there respective positions.
The 2000's was a much better decade than the 1990's. It isn't close. The 70's are the only possible decade on par with the crap that was the 90's. And the reason for those are obvious i.e. widespread expansion. When a league expands it initially dilutes a lot and leads to a far crappier product before it ultimately evens out. In addition, the early 90's saw a rash of the league's stars get injured (Bird), get sick (Magic), or just dramatically and suddenly age (Thomas). Leaving a vacuum of top end talent missing that should have been there.
I don't often agree with you but you're pretty dead on with this. Otis was definitely considered the 2nd best player on that team that year.
90's teams were not comprised of multiple all-stars. IMHO, it's big factor in why Jordan was successful in that era with teammates like a matured-Pippen and matured-Grant on his first 3-peat and then with Pippen, Kukoc and Rodman on his next run. He had a number of good role players on his teams but that era of basketball was 1 or 2 top players on a contender and a number of role players. Jordan was the best player and he had the best second banana and a pretty solid supporting cast. that's all it took to win back then
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Larry Johnson was a hell of a player, but MJ was definitely better
wait... what?
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If Tom Brady was 2-6 in Superbowls no one in football would think he was the GOAT over a 4-0 Montana. The idea that a 3-6 Lebron is better than a 6-0 MJ is comical.
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Do we really need another thread of Moranis arguing with like 15 people about how great Lebron is? This topic couldn't be more dead and I have never seen anyone change their mind.
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Larry Johnson was a hell of a player, but MJ was definitely better
wait... what?
Even though I started the tread, I have to admit I deleted the middle B a couple of times. Larry is also my first LJ, but I fell for it due to aesthetic appeal.
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Larry Johnson was a hell of a player, but MJ was definitely better
wait... what?
Even though I started the tread, I have to admit I deleted the middle B a couple of times. Larry is also my first LJ, but I fell for it due to aesthetic appeal.
TP
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Jordan played defense every possession...LBJ does not
Jordan was a better teammate and leader
Jordan is 6-0 on the biggest of stages.
Jordan playing defense every possession is the funniest thing I've read on here in a very long time.
Jordan most certainly was not a better teammate and it is arguable that he was a better leader. Different type of leader, but certainly arguable he was better.
Jordan also failed to reach the Finals 9 of his 15 seasons and got his 6 wins in the weakest (or 2nd weakest) decade of basketball the sport has ever seen. I mean when he took his break, the Rockets won a title with Otis Thorpe as the 2nd best player on that team. OTIS THORPE.
I like how you knock Jordan for missing the Finals 9 times and the 90’s being weak, but credit LeBron for making it out of the 10’s EAST. The East has been so notoriously weak since Jordan retired.
You can probably count on one hand how many runner-ups in the East were legit teams. I honestly think only the 2006-2008 Pistons were championship caliber. And considering the East has only won 6 of the last 20 Finals (including this one, it’s over), it’s safe to say the East is clearly inferior.
LeBron has without a doubt capitalized on a weak conference the last 8 years (but his 2007 appearance was undoubtedly impressive, but he got utterly embarrassed when he met the Spurs).
I do not buy that teams with stars like Barkley/KJ or Clyde or Ewing or Payton/Kemp or Stockton/Malone would not be good in this era, at all. The only win LeBron has that’s impressive compared to Jordan’s competition is the 2016 win over GSW.
If LeBron played in the West, he probably wouldn’t have made half the Finals he has. Jordan? He was 6-0 against the West’s best, so that’s not applicable to him. Who knows if the Bulls could have won a couple more had Jordan not retired twice following three-peats, but that’s a story for another day.
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Jordan played defense every possession...LBJ does not
Jordan was a better teammate and leader
Jordan is 6-0 on the biggest of stages.
Jordan playing defense every possession is the funniest thing I've read on here in a very long time.
Jordan most certainly was not a better teammate and it is arguable that he was a better leader. Different type of leader, but certainly arguable he was better.
Jordan also failed to reach the Finals 9 of his 15 seasons and got his 6 wins in the weakest (or 2nd weakest) decade of basketball the sport has ever seen. I mean when he took his break, the Rockets won a title with Otis Thorpe as the 2nd best player on that team. OTIS THORPE.
I like how you knock Jordan for missing the Finals 9 times and the 90’s being weak, but credit LeBron for making it out of the 10’s EAST. The East has been so notoriously weak since Jordan retired.
You can probably count on one hand how many runner-ups in the East were legit teams. I honestly think only the 2006-2008 Pistons were championship caliber. And considering the East has only won 6 of the last 20 Finals (including this one, it’s over), it’s safe to say the East is clearly inferior.
LeBron has without a doubt capitalized on a weak conference the last 8 years (but his 2007 appearance was undoubtedly impressive, but he got utterly embarrassed when he met the Spurs).
I do not buy that teams with stars like Barkley/KJ or Clyde or Ewing or Payton/Kemp or Stockton/Malone would not be good in this era, at all. The only win LeBron has that’s impressive compared to Jordan’s competition is the 2016 win over GSW.
If LeBron played in the West, he probably wouldn’t have made half the Finals he has. Jordan? He was 6-0 against the West’s best, so that’s not applicable to him. Who knows if the Bulls could have won a couple more had Jordan not retired twice following three-peats, but that’s a story for another day.
I think nothing epitomized the weakness of the east this year than our run to game 7 of the conference finals. I love our guys and think Tatum, Brown and maybe Rozier will be great players. However, without Theis, Irving and Hayward we had no business being in game 7 of a conference finals and were there because all the teams were seriously flawed and weak.
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Jordan most certainly was not a better teammate and it is arguable that he was a better leader. Different type of leader, but certainly arguable he was better.
Yep, he was a jerk but he also did not undermine a ton of coaches like the LBJ
The only argument I see about who is better that might be relevent is who is more productive. Jordan wins the titles arguments, Jordan was more popular.
Jordan played 13 seasons and LeBron 15 and he still almost beat him on win shares.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career.html
Jordan lead the league in scoring for 10 of his 11 seasons
Check out the post season scoring leader, hint it is not LeBron
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/player_post_pts.html
Also , Which was stronger team mates Wade, Bosh and LeBron
or Jordan, Pippen and Rodman. I think it is the former and they did not have a winning record in the finals.
LeBron is a great player but all too often he comes up a bit lacking or short when in the finals. No one can say that about MJ. I don't care for either one of them but I have lived long enough to see the league market guys as the greatest and anointing someone new in each generation. But I know it for what is marketing.
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Physically Jordan played in a much tougher era. Anyone denying his greatness needs to do some research.
Sorry, but I always laugh at this argument. Sure, in terms of physicality, the 90s, as an era, were tougher, overall, than the modern NBA, but not for Jordan or for any of the Bulls. You've got to remember, the league literally changed the rules for Michael, so it's not like you could ever hand check him after 1990, while on defense, he and Pippen could bump, hold, scratch, claw, and rip your arms off until the cows came home without ever being whistled for a foul ::). Just look at the 1991 NBA Finals and 1998 Eastern Conference Finals when Scottie was bumping and fouling Magic and Momma There Goes that Man ::), respectively, on literally every single trip up the court and was somehow never cited for an infraction ::). The whole thing was beyond ridiculous, imo.
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Do we really need another thread of Moranis arguing with like 15 people about how great Lebron is? This topic couldn't be more dead and I have never seen anyone change their mind.
LOL, TP
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I think if you dropped current Lebron into the 90s, he’d be better than MJ. Bigger, stronger, better shooter and passer.
But, I’m not sure that’s how the “greatest ever” debate works.
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Jordan played defense every possession...LBJ does not
Jordan was a better teammate and leader
Jordan is 6-0 on the biggest of stages.
Jordan playing defense every possession is the funniest thing I've read on here in a very long time.
Jordan most certainly was not a better teammate and it is arguable that he was a better leader. Different type of leader, but certainly arguable he was better.
Jordan also failed to reach the Finals 9 of his 15 seasons and got his 6 wins in the weakest (or 2nd weakest) decade of basketball the sport has ever seen. I mean when he took his break, the Rockets won a title with Otis Thorpe as the 2nd best player on that team. OTIS THORPE.
I like how you knock Jordan for missing the Finals 9 times and the 90’s being weak, but credit LeBron for making it out of the 10’s EAST. The East has been so notoriously weak since Jordan retired.
You can probably count on one hand how many runner-ups in the East were legit teams. I honestly think only the 2006-2008 Pistons were championship caliber. And considering the East has only won 6 of the last 20 Finals (including this one, it’s over), it’s safe to say the East is clearly inferior.
LeBron has without a doubt capitalized on a weak conference the last 8 years (but his 2007 appearance was undoubtedly impressive, but he got utterly embarrassed when he met the Spurs).
I do not buy that teams with stars like Barkley/KJ or Clyde or Ewing or Payton/Kemp or Stockton/Malone would not be good in this era, at all. The only win LeBron has that’s impressive compared to Jordan’s competition is the 2016 win over GSW.
If LeBron played in the West, he probably wouldn’t have made half the Finals he has. Jordan? He was 6-0 against the West’s best, so that’s not applicable to him. Who knows if the Bulls could have won a couple more had Jordan not retired twice following three-peats, but that’s a story for another day.
who were the great teams the Bulls beat in the East? The Knicks, the Pacers, etc. I mean come on. Aside from the Lakers and Sonics, who were these great teams the Bulls played in the Finals. The Jazz's 3rd best player was Bryon Russell and they started Greg Ostertag and Jeff Hornacek those weren't great teams. The Blazers are one of the worst finals teams ever. The Suns were Barkley, KJ, and a bunch of crap (sorry Danny).
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I think it's going to be common to have weak conferences going forward with the push for super teams. If all of the best players want to play together, there will be a lot of bad teams. I don't think MJ or LJ's competition should be counted against them. They can only do what they do against the players in front of them.
The only thing that I can definitively say is that MJ won't be playing anymore basketball games. I'm not sure how to summarize Lebron's career at this point. I still think he will win more rings.
If you only care about rings, it's going to be hard to convince you that Lebron is better. Lebron's finals record will never match MJ's.
If you look at the two players side to side, I think the most glaring difference is that Lebron has the superior body.
MJ never faced a team like GS. I'm sure he would have picked up a couple L's.
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wow...
Pippin is a top 50 players yes, But he could not lead a team to a chip the way Wade did.. MJ never played with anyone who led a team on his own to a championship... LBJ has played with 1 and possibly 2 with Irving.
A Durant lead team would never mentally dominate a Jordan lead team.. Win or Lose, never would MJ allow for Durant (or anyone) to come into his house and show out without him At least trying to guard him... Game 3, Durant was giving The Cavs the business and LBJ was guarding Green.. MJ would have taken that crap personally and Went at him Man on Man... That is what made him the goat...
There is not one man in the world who could say they know what its like to get into the Ring with Jordan for all the marbles, and walk away with the marble bag.. No one, ever...
That is greatness. All that other crap, one-legged jumpers, 40 point games and triple-doubles.. who cares.. what does it matter if you cant raise the banner...
and When the heck did We as Celtic fans start lowering the bar... Jeeze..
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I think if you dropped current Lebron into the 90s, he’d be better than MJ. Bigger, stronger, better shooter and passer.
But, I’m not sure that’s how the “greatest ever” debate works.
The greatest ever debates are tough bc there's usually an apple up against an orange. Best SG vs best SF/Point Forward ever. They are different players with different roles. Jordan was a scorer. Lebron is more of a facilitator.
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wow...
Pippin is a top 50 players yes, But he could not lead a team to a chip the way Wade did.. MJ never played with anyone who led a team on his own to a championship... LBJ has played with 1 and possibly 2 with Irving.
A Durant lead team would never mentally dominate a Jordan lead team.. Win or Lose, never would MJ allow for Durant (or anyone) to come into his house and show out without him At least trying to guard him... Game 3, Durant was giving The Cavs the business and LBJ was guarding Green.. MJ would have taken that crap personally and Went at him Man on Man... That is what made him the goat...
There is not one man in the world who could say they know what its like to get into the Ring with Jordan for all the marbles, and walk away with the marble bag.. No one, ever...
That is greatness. All that other crap, one-legged jumpers, 40 point games and triple-doubles.. who cares.. what does it matter if you cant raise the banner...
and When the heck did We as Celtic fans start lowering the bar... Jeeze..
No.
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Pippen is a top 50 players yes, But he could not lead a team to a chip the way Wade did..
I disagree with this. I’d take Pippen over Wade 100% of the time.
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wow...
Pippin is a top 50 players yes, But he could not lead a team to a chip the way Wade did.. MJ never played with anyone who led a team on his own to a championship... LBJ has played with 1 and possibly 2 with Irving.
A Durant lead team would never mentally dominate a Jordan lead team.. Win or Lose, never would MJ allow for Durant (or anyone) to come into his house and show out without him At least trying to guard him... Game 3, Durant was giving The Cavs the business and LBJ was guarding Green.. MJ would have taken that crap personally and Went at him Man on Man... That is what made him the goat...
There is not one man in the world who could say they know what its like to get into the Ring with Jordan for all the marbles, and walk away with the marble bag.. No one, ever...
That is greatness. All that other crap, one-legged jumpers, 40 point games and triple-doubles.. who cares.. what does it matter if you cant raise the banner...
and When the heck did We as Celtic fans start lowering the bar... Jeeze..
No.
I agree. I think there are about 10+ players over the last 20 years that are better than Pippen. He was good, but 50 is a stretch.
Also, GS is the best team ever assembled. They would beat MJ or anyone else.
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Jordan played defense every possession...LBJ does not
Jordan was a better teammate and leader
Jordan is 6-0 on the biggest of stages.
Jordan playing defense every possession is the funniest thing I've read on here in a very long time.
Jordan most certainly was not a better teammate and it is arguable that he was a better leader. Different type of leader, but certainly arguable he was better.
Jordan also failed to reach the Finals 9 of his 15 seasons and got his 6 wins in the weakest (or 2nd weakest) decade of basketball the sport has ever seen. I mean when he took his break, the Rockets won a title with Otis Thorpe as the 2nd best player on that team. OTIS THORPE.
I like how you knock Jordan for missing the Finals 9 times and the 90’s being weak, but credit LeBron for making it out of the 10’s EAST. The East has been so notoriously weak since Jordan retired.
You can probably count on one hand how many runner-ups in the East were legit teams. I honestly think only the 2006-2008 Pistons were championship caliber. And considering the East has only won 6 of the last 20 Finals (including this one, it’s over), it’s safe to say the East is clearly inferior.
LeBron has without a doubt capitalized on a weak conference the last 8 years (but his 2007 appearance was undoubtedly impressive, but he got utterly embarrassed when he met the Spurs).
I do not buy that teams with stars like Barkley/KJ or Clyde or Ewing or Payton/Kemp or Stockton/Malone would not be good in this era, at all. The only win LeBron has that’s impressive compared to Jordan’s competition is the 2016 win over GSW.
If LeBron played in the West, he probably wouldn’t have made half the Finals he has. Jordan? He was 6-0 against the West’s best, so that’s not applicable to him. Who knows if the Bulls could have won a couple more had Jordan not retired twice following three-peats, but that’s a story for another day.
who were the great teams the Bulls beat in the East? The Knicks, the Pacers, etc. I mean come on. Aside from the Lakers and Sonics, who were these great teams the Bulls played in the Finals. The Jazz's 3rd best player was Bryon Russell and they started Greg Ostertag and Jeff Hornacek those weren't great teams. The Blazers are one of the worst finals teams ever. The Suns were Barkley, KJ, and a bunch of crap (sorry Danny).
How do you figure? Still can't understand as to why they ever traded Petrovic, though, lol. Keep him and they might have at least won one title, but who knows?
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wow...
Pippin is a top 50 players yes, But he could not lead a team to a chip the way Wade did.. MJ never played with anyone who led a team on his own to a championship... LBJ has played with 1 and possibly 2 with Irving.
A Durant lead team would never mentally dominate a Jordan lead team.. Win or Lose, never would MJ allow for Durant (or anyone) to come into his house and show out without him At least trying to guard him... Game 3, Durant was giving The Cavs the business and LBJ was guarding Green.. MJ would have taken that crap personally and Went at him Man on Man... That is what made him the goat...
There is not one man in the world who could say they know what its like to get into the Ring with Jordan for all the marbles, and walk away with the marble bag.. No one, ever...
That is greatness. All that other crap, one-legged jumpers, 40 point games and triple-doubles.. who cares.. what does it matter if you cant raise the banner...
and When the heck did We as Celtic fans start lowering the bar... Jeeze..
No.
I agree. I think there are about 10+ players over the last 20 years that are better than Pippen. He was good, but 50 is a stretch.
Also, GS is the best team ever assembled. They would beat MJ or anyone else.
Can you name them? Scottie Pippen's prime was pretty amazing.
Also, lol
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wow...
Pippin is a top 50 players yes, But he could not lead a team to a chip the way Wade did.. MJ never played with anyone who led a team on his own to a championship... LBJ has played with 1 and possibly 2 with Irving.
A Durant lead team would never mentally dominate a Jordan lead team.. Win or Lose, never would MJ allow for Durant (or anyone) to come into his house and show out without him At least trying to guard him... Game 3, Durant was giving The Cavs the business and LBJ was guarding Green.. MJ would have taken that crap personally and Went at him Man on Man... That is what made him the goat...
There is not one man in the world who could say they know what its like to get into the Ring with Jordan for all the marbles, and walk away with the marble bag.. No one, ever...
That is greatness. All that other crap, one-legged jumpers, 40 point games and triple-doubles.. who cares.. what does it matter if you cant raise the banner...
and When the heck did We as Celtic fans start lowering the bar... Jeeze..
No.
I agree. I think there are about 10+ players over the last 20 years that are better than Pippen. He was good, but 50 is a stretch.
Also, GS is the best team ever assembled. They would beat MJ or anyone else.
While I disagree with your last point about the Warriors, how do Dominique Wilkins, Bernard King, Mark Aguirre, Rodman, Artis Gilmore, Sidney Moncrief, Adrian Dantley, Dennis Johnson, and Bob McAdoo, for starters, get passed over for Scottie Pippen?
Don't get me wrong, the latter was at least a really good player, but come on, over those guys? ::) I'd take Michael Cooper over Pippen, lol ;D.
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how do Dominique Wilkins, Bernard King, Mark Aguirre, Rodman, Artis Gilmore, Sidney Moncrief, Adrian Dantley, Dennis Johnson, and Bob McAdoo, for starters, get passed over for Scottie Pippen?
You’re just picking borderline Hall of Famers, right?
Pippen was easily better than all of those guys.
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how do Dominique Wilkins, Bernard King, Mark Aguirre, Rodman, Artis Gilmore, Sidney Moncrief, Adrian Dantley, Dennis Johnson, and Bob McAdoo, for starters, get passed over for Scottie Pippen?
You’re just picking borderline Hall of Famers, right?
Pippen was easily better than all of those guys.
Borderline Hall of Famers? :o Who on that list constitutes as such?
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how do Dominique Wilkins, Bernard King, Mark Aguirre, Rodman, Artis Gilmore, Sidney Moncrief, Adrian Dantley, Dennis Johnson, and Bob McAdoo, for starters, get passed over for Scottie Pippen?
You’re just picking borderline Hall of Famers, right?
Pippen was easily better than all of those guys.
Yeah, Pippen gets the nod over most, if not all those guys. McAdoo's prime was probably better, but Pippen's longevity, as well as being the second best guy for two 3-peats, whereas McAdoo was never even a starter on a championship winner. A lot of those others were great scorers, but Pippen was so good in so many different areas
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how do Dominique Wilkins, Bernard King, Mark Aguirre, Rodman, Artis Gilmore, Sidney Moncrief, Adrian Dantley, Dennis Johnson, and Bob McAdoo, for starters, get passed over for Scottie Pippen?
You’re just picking borderline Hall of Famers, right?
Pippen was easily better than all of those guys.
Yeah, Pippen gets the nod over most, if not all those guys. McAdoo's prime was probably better, but Pippen's longevity, as well as being the second best guy for two 3-peats, whereas McAdoo was never even a starter on a championship winner. A lot of those others were great scorers, but Pippen was so good in so many different areas
Maybe not, but he was the MVP in 1975, not to mention the fact that you're really underrating the passing abilities of Aguirre, D.J., King, and Moncrief, imo.
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Hard to argue with Jordan's resume.
That said, if you swapped LeBron with prime Jordan on this Cavs team, I don't think they even get to the Finals let alone compete with that Warriors juggernaut.
Jordan was amazing. Pippen doesn't get enough credit.
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how do Dominique Wilkins, Bernard King, Mark Aguirre, Rodman, Artis Gilmore, Sidney Moncrief, Adrian Dantley, Dennis Johnson, and Bob McAdoo, for starters, get passed over for Scottie Pippen?
You’re just picking borderline Hall of Famers, right?
Pippen was easily better than all of those guys.
Borderline Hall of Famers? :o Who on that list constitutes as such?
Pretty much all of them. But if you prefer, “lower echelon Hall of Famers”.
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Hard to argue with Jordan's resume.
That said, if you swapped LeBron with prime Jordan on this Cavs team, I don't think they even get to the Finals let alone compete with that Warriors juggernaut.
Jordan was amazing. Pippen doesn't get enough credit.
Fair point, but does Jordan have the benefit of preparing under today's rules? These debates are so difficult because we would need to assume that Jordan could/would extend his range with only one off-season to prepare. Despite never being a 3-point shooter Jordan had the ability to knock them down in seasons where it became a priority. There was always a positive correlation between percentage and attempts per game.
It would also be interesting to see how his relentless competitiveness would translate in today's NBA. There are so many legendary stories of how he put pressure on teammates in practice scenarios. I feel like a lackadaisical JR Smith wouldn't exist as a teammate of Jordan's. It's a given that LeBron is a far superior floor general, but Jordan has the edge when it comes to making sure he teammates are prepared for the moment.
This same logic applies to LeBron if we placed him in the 90's. I'd be willing to bet that his range would be severely limited due to a lack of emphasis on the three point shot.
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The poll results are giving the LBJ guys something to ponder, eh? Only 8% for LBJ!
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In a cavs forum LeBron gets 99%..... The results with such a sample are meaningless. James here is the most hated person in the universe
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In a cavs forum LeBron gets 99%..... The results with such a sample are meaningless. James here is the most hated person in the universe
I think we probably have some folks that go to that forum as well.
Jordan here.
https://www.ranker.com/crowdranked-list/the-top-nba-players-of-all-time
Jordan here
https://www.statista.com/statistics/612623/greatest-nba-player-of-all-time/
ESPN Jordan
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank1/all-nbarank-1
Yes, LeBron is hated. A lot of the people who don't like him, is because people think he is the greatest and they don't agree.
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Reading these comparisons between Jordan and James, two things come to mind. First, I wonder how many of the people on here saying things like "Jordan wouldn't have even gotten out of the East with this Cavs team" and are old enough to have actually Jordan him play. Second, I think people don't understand how good Jordan was defensively.
Jordan didn't coast most of the game but come up with a highlight-reel chasedown block every now and again. Um, no. He was an absolutely filthy defender, to go along with being the best offensive player of his generation. Do people realize he was defensive player of the year in '87-88? Or that he made the all-defensive team 9 times? For those of us old enough to remember, this wasn't on reputation. He was absolutely sick as both an individual defender and team defender, and it's a major reason why those Bulls teams came out with six championships.
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In a cavs forum LeBron gets 99%..... The results with such a sample are meaningless. James here is the most hated person in the universe
I think we probably have some folks that go to that forum as well.
Jordan here.
https://www.ranker.com/crowdranked-list/the-top-nba-players-of-all-time
Jordan here
https://www.statista.com/statistics/612623/greatest-nba-player-of-all-time/
ESPN Jordan
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank1/all-nbarank-1
Yes, LeBron is hated. A lot of the people who don't like him, is because people think he is the greatest and they don't agree.
I dont argue about the result itself.
The difference 92-8 is misleading though.
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It may be misleading, but it also may be true. As of 2018, Jordan had a better career than Lebron. I'm not certain that will be the case in 2025.
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Pippen is a top 50 players yes, But he could not lead a team to a chip the way Wade did..
I disagree with this. I’d take Pippen over Wade 100% of the time.
The point I was making was Pippen never lead a Team to a Chip... Wade did.
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Watch Lebron not fight to get through this viscous curry screen at the end of the game on the most important possession in the NBA Finals
(https://media.giphy.com/media/5tf36e5dtYaqhUiOxP/giphy.gif)
Yea I will take MJ.
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Watch Lebron not fight to get through this viscous curry screen at the end of the game on the most important possession in the NBA Finals
(https://media.giphy.com/media/5tf36e5dtYaqhUiOxP/giphy.gif)
Yea I will take MJ.
That was the team's defensive strategy. They did all game long and even when it was Love that switched onto Durant. That is what having a crappy coach looks like.
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I posted this on Reddit asking if the Cavs would still be in the Finals with prime Jordan in Lebron’s place.
Not arguing with Jordan's resume. He was greatest ever. They dominated their competition back then. That said, Jordan has a losing record his first 3 seasons carrying a garbage team:
* 1984 age 21: 28 pts, 6 asts, 6.5 rbs, 2.4 stl - Bulls win 38 games
* 1985 age 22: Jordan only plays 18 games. Bulls win 30 games
* 1986 age 23: 37.1 pts, 4.6 asts, 5.2 rbs, 2.9 sl - Bulls win 40 games
Not until 1987 and the arrival of Scottie Pippen did the Bulls win 50 games.
Pippen always gets overlooked. The biggest argument in favor of Pippen is that in 1993 during Title #3 for the Bulls, they won 57 games. Jordan "retires" and the very next season (without Jordan), Pippen carries the Bulls to 55 wins and the second round. Pippen's averages that season: 22 points, 5.6 assists, 8.7 rebounds, 2.9 steals
So FWIW, Jordan never won 50+ games without Pippen, but Pippen won 50+ games with Jordan.
Consider LeBron's performance when the same age as Jordan's first 3 seasons (in which Jordan finished below .500 every year).
* 2006 Age 21: 31.4 pts, 6.6 asts, 7 rbs, 1.6 stl. - Cavs win 50
* 2007 age 22: 27.3 pts, 6 ast, 6.7 rbs, 1.6 st. - Cavs win 50 and make Finals
* 2008 age 23: 30 pts, 7.2 ast, 7.9 rbs, 1.8 stl - Cavs win 45
Jordan finally cracked 50 wins at age 24 during Pippen's rookie season. At age 24, LeBron won 66 games alongside Mo Williams.
History aside, how do you think this Cavs team plays with prime Jordan in LeBron's spot? Is he easier to defend? Harder? Jordan is significantly smaller than LeBron, doesn't have the same shooting range, and doesnt get his teammates involved as much. Do they still sweep the Raptors and get through the length of the Celtics?
Jordan's mid-range shooting in his prime was incredible. Athletically he was a marvel. One of the fiercest competitors the league will ever see. Was he more athletic than LeBron, though? Does the mid-range shooting offer him that much of an advantage considering the length of defenses like the Celtics? Is he that much more of a competitor than LeBron? Explain to me why prime Jordan would do a better job carrying this team.
Honest question. How does it play out? Don't just say "Obviously cuz Jordan is the greatest"... give me some real reasons. LeBron got through the Celtics with his size, strength and range. How does Jordan beat them?
Everyone just responded “yes jordan would make the finals”. No actual analysis. It’s lazy. The Paul Bunyaning of Jordan. Listen, I saw prime Kobe try to carry teams like this Cavs squad and end up winning 35 games and missing the playoffs. Granted, prime Kobe was like 60-70% the player jordan was, but it’s food for thought. Lebron is somehow very underrated. Consider context when dismissing Lebron losses. Jordan wasn’t going against a juggernaut stacked with 4 all-nba players (three of the greatest shooters of all time on one team). Instead Jordan was going against mortal pairs like Malone/Stockton or Payton/Kemp - while playing alongside a top 50 player (Pippen) who only saw his team lose 2 less games (57 to 55) when Jordan retired. You know what happened to the 66 win Cavs when Lebron left?... they won 15 games.
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I posted this on Reddit asking if the Cavs would still be in the Finals with prime Jordan in Lebron’s place.
Not arguing with Jordan's resume. He was greatest ever. They dominated their competition back then. That said, Jordan has a losing record his first 3 seasons carrying a garbage team:
* 1984 age 21: 28 pts, 6 asts, 6.5 rbs, 2.4 stl - Bulls win 38 games
* 1985 age 22: Jordan only plays 18 games. Bulls win 30 games
* 1986 age 23: 37.1 pts, 4.6 asts, 5.2 rbs, 2.9 sl - Bulls win 40 games
Not until 1987 and the arrival of Scottie Pippen did the Bulls win 50 games.
Pippen always gets overlooked. The biggest argument in favor of Pippen is that in 1993 during Title #3 for the Bulls, they won 57 games. Jordan "retires" and the very next season (without Jordan), Pippen carries the Bulls to 55 wins and the second round. Pippen's averages that season: 22 points, 5.6 assists, 8.7 rebounds, 2.9 steals
So FWIW, Jordan never won 50+ games without Pippen, but Pippen won 50+ games with Jordan.
Consider LeBron's performance when the same age as Jordan's first 3 seasons (in which Jordan finished below .500 every year).
* 2006 Age 21: 31.4 pts, 6.6 asts, 7 rbs, 1.6 stl. - Cavs win 50
* 2007 age 22: 27.3 pts, 6 ast, 6.7 rbs, 1.6 st. - Cavs win 50 and make Finals
* 2008 age 23: 30 pts, 7.2 ast, 7.9 rbs, 1.8 stl - Cavs win 45
Jordan finally cracked 50 wins at age 24 during Pippen's rookie season. At age 24, LeBron won 66 games alongside Mo Williams.
History aside, how do you think this Cavs team plays with prime Jordan in LeBron's spot? Is he easier to defend? Harder? Jordan is significantly smaller than LeBron, doesn't have the same shooting range, and doesnt get his teammates involved as much. Do they still sweep the Raptors and get through the length of the Celtics?
Jordan's mid-range shooting in his prime was incredible. Athletically he was a marvel. One of the fiercest competitors the league will ever see. Was he more athletic than LeBron, though? Does the mid-range shooting offer him that much of an advantage considering the length of defenses like the Celtics? Is he that much more of a competitor than LeBron? Explain to me why prime Jordan would do a better job carrying this team.
Honest question. How does it play out? Don't just say "Obviously cuz Jordan is the greatest"... give me some real reasons. LeBron got through the Celtics with his size, strength and range. How does Jordan beat them?
Everyone just responded “yes jordan would make the finals”. No actual analysis. It’s lazy. The Paul Bunyaning of Jordan. Listen, I saw prime Kobe try to carry teams like this Cavs squad and end up winning 35 games and missing the playoffs. Granted, prime Kobe was like 60-70% the player jordan was, but it’s food for thought. Lebron is somehow very underrated. Consider context when dismissing Lebron losses. Jordan wasn’t going against a juggernaut stacked with 4 all-nba players (three of the greatest shooters of all time on one team). Instead Jordan was going against mortal pairs like Malone/Stockton or Payton/Kemp - while playing alongside a top 50 player (Pippen) who only saw his team lose 2 less games (57 to 55) when Jordan retired.
Meh, people talked about Love like he was a superstar (even on these forums) and now act like he is complete chopped liver even though he is in his absolute prime at 29 and was an all-star this year. George Hill, Rodney Hood, and Korver have all been really high level role players or in hill's case, an above average starter for many years. Lebron completely dominates their system and we are now meant to believe all these other players are complete crap all of a sudden? I personally think the Lebron has no help narrative is the lazy one.
They have way more talent than the celtics without irving or hayward, but limped by us and people act like it was some herculean effort by Lebron carrying scrubs. 1) They are not scrubs, 2) if he is the best ever he should be able to beat a team led by a rookie and second year player and lifetime role players playing with me you and moranis.
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I posted this on Reddit asking if the Cavs would still be in the Finals with prime Jordan in Lebron’s place.
Not arguing with Jordan's resume. He was greatest ever. They dominated their competition back then. That said, Jordan has a losing record his first 3 seasons carrying a garbage team:
* 1984 age 21: 28 pts, 6 asts, 6.5 rbs, 2.4 stl - Bulls win 38 games
* 1985 age 22: Jordan only plays 18 games. Bulls win 30 games
* 1986 age 23: 37.1 pts, 4.6 asts, 5.2 rbs, 2.9 sl - Bulls win 40 games
Not until 1987 and the arrival of Scottie Pippen did the Bulls win 50 games.
Pippen always gets overlooked. The biggest argument in favor of Pippen is that in 1993 during Title #3 for the Bulls, they won 57 games. Jordan "retires" and the very next season (without Jordan), Pippen carries the Bulls to 55 wins and the second round. Pippen's averages that season: 22 points, 5.6 assists, 8.7 rebounds, 2.9 steals
So FWIW, Jordan never won 50+ games without Pippen, but Pippen won 50+ games with Jordan.
Consider LeBron's performance when the same age as Jordan's first 3 seasons (in which Jordan finished below .500 every year).
* 2006 Age 21: 31.4 pts, 6.6 asts, 7 rbs, 1.6 stl. - Cavs win 50
* 2007 age 22: 27.3 pts, 6 ast, 6.7 rbs, 1.6 st. - Cavs win 50 and make Finals
* 2008 age 23: 30 pts, 7.2 ast, 7.9 rbs, 1.8 stl - Cavs win 45
Jordan finally cracked 50 wins at age 24 during Pippen's rookie season. At age 24, LeBron won 66 games alongside Mo Williams.
History aside, how do you think this Cavs team plays with prime Jordan in LeBron's spot? Is he easier to defend? Harder? Jordan is significantly smaller than LeBron, doesn't have the same shooting range, and doesnt get his teammates involved as much. Do they still sweep the Raptors and get through the length of the Celtics?
Jordan's mid-range shooting in his prime was incredible. Athletically he was a marvel. One of the fiercest competitors the league will ever see. Was he more athletic than LeBron, though? Does the mid-range shooting offer him that much of an advantage considering the length of defenses like the Celtics? Is he that much more of a competitor than LeBron? Explain to me why prime Jordan would do a better job carrying this team.
Honest question. How does it play out? Don't just say "Obviously cuz Jordan is the greatest"... give me some real reasons. LeBron got through the Celtics with his size, strength and range. How does Jordan beat them?
Everyone just responded “yes jordan would make the finals”. No actual analysis. It’s lazy. The Paul Bunyaning of Jordan. Listen, I saw prime Kobe try to carry teams like this Cavs squad and end up winning 35 games and missing the playoffs. Granted, prime Kobe was like 60-70% the player jordan was, but it’s food for thought. Lebron is somehow very underrated. Consider context when dismissing Lebron losses. Jordan wasn’t going against a juggernaut stacked with 4 all-nba players (three of the greatest shooters of all time on one team). Instead Jordan was going against mortal pairs like Malone/Stockton or Payton/Kemp - while playing alongside a top 50 player (Pippen) who only saw his team lose 2 less games (57 to 55) when Jordan retired.
Meh, people talked about Love like he was a superstar (even on these forums) and now act like he is complete chopped liver even though he is in his absolute prime at 29 and was an all-star this year. George Hill, Rodney Hood, and Korver have all been really high level role players or in hill's case, an above average starter for many years. Lebron completely dominates their system and we are now meant to believe all these other players are complete crap all of a sudden? I personally think the Lebron has no help narrative is the lazy one.
They have way more talent than the celtics without irving or hayward, but limped by us and people act like it was some herculean effort by Lebron carrying scrubs. 1) They are not scrubs, 2) if he is the best ever he should be able to beat a team led by a rookie and second year player and lifetime role players playing with me you and moranis.
last time Lebron left the Cavs they won 15 games. If he leaves this group it will be more of the same.
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I posted this on Reddit asking if the Cavs would still be in the Finals with prime Jordan in Lebron’s place.
Not arguing with Jordan's resume. He was greatest ever. They dominated their competition back then. That said, Jordan has a losing record his first 3 seasons carrying a garbage team:
* 1984 age 21: 28 pts, 6 asts, 6.5 rbs, 2.4 stl - Bulls win 38 games
* 1985 age 22: Jordan only plays 18 games. Bulls win 30 games
* 1986 age 23: 37.1 pts, 4.6 asts, 5.2 rbs, 2.9 sl - Bulls win 40 games
Not until 1987 and the arrival of Scottie Pippen did the Bulls win 50 games.
Pippen always gets overlooked. The biggest argument in favor of Pippen is that in 1993 during Title #3 for the Bulls, they won 57 games. Jordan "retires" and the very next season (without Jordan), Pippen carries the Bulls to 55 wins and the second round. Pippen's averages that season: 22 points, 5.6 assists, 8.7 rebounds, 2.9 steals
So FWIW, Jordan never won 50+ games without Pippen, but Pippen won 50+ games with Jordan.
Consider LeBron's performance when the same age as Jordan's first 3 seasons (in which Jordan finished below .500 every year).
* 2006 Age 21: 31.4 pts, 6.6 asts, 7 rbs, 1.6 stl. - Cavs win 50
* 2007 age 22: 27.3 pts, 6 ast, 6.7 rbs, 1.6 st. - Cavs win 50 and make Finals
* 2008 age 23: 30 pts, 7.2 ast, 7.9 rbs, 1.8 stl - Cavs win 45
Jordan finally cracked 50 wins at age 24 during Pippen's rookie season. At age 24, LeBron won 66 games alongside Mo Williams.
History aside, how do you think this Cavs team plays with prime Jordan in LeBron's spot? Is he easier to defend? Harder? Jordan is significantly smaller than LeBron, doesn't have the same shooting range, and doesnt get his teammates involved as much. Do they still sweep the Raptors and get through the length of the Celtics?
Jordan's mid-range shooting in his prime was incredible. Athletically he was a marvel. One of the fiercest competitors the league will ever see. Was he more athletic than LeBron, though? Does the mid-range shooting offer him that much of an advantage considering the length of defenses like the Celtics? Is he that much more of a competitor than LeBron? Explain to me why prime Jordan would do a better job carrying this team.
Honest question. How does it play out? Don't just say "Obviously cuz Jordan is the greatest"... give me some real reasons. LeBron got through the Celtics with his size, strength and range. How does Jordan beat them?
Everyone just responded “yes jordan would make the finals”. No actual analysis. It’s lazy. The Paul Bunyaning of Jordan. Listen, I saw prime Kobe try to carry teams like this Cavs squad and end up winning 35 games and missing the playoffs. Granted, prime Kobe was like 60-70% the player jordan was, but it’s food for thought. Lebron is somehow very underrated. Consider context when dismissing Lebron losses. Jordan wasn’t going against a juggernaut stacked with 4 all-nba players (three of the greatest shooters of all time on one team). Instead Jordan was going against mortal pairs like Malone/Stockton or Payton/Kemp - while playing alongside a top 50 player (Pippen) who only saw his team lose 2 less games (57 to 55) when Jordan retired.
Meh, people talked about Love like he was a superstar (even on these forums) and now act like he is complete chopped liver even though he is in his absolute prime at 29 and was an all-star this year. George Hill, Rodney Hood, and Korver have all been really high level role players or in hill's case, an above average starter for many years. Lebron completely dominates their system and we are now meant to believe all these other players are complete crap all of a sudden? I personally think the Lebron has no help narrative is the lazy one.
They have way more talent than the celtics without irving or hayward, but limped by us and people act like it was some herculean effort by Lebron carrying scrubs. 1) They are not scrubs, 2) if he is the best ever he should be able to beat a team led by a rookie and second year player and lifetime role players playing with me you and moranis.
last time Lebron left the Cavs they won 15 games. If he leaves this group it will be more of the same.
If you are saying it is because they will blow it up tank and will trade love and other good players for picks and prospects I agree. If you are saying the reason the went from winning to 61 to 15 games was just because Lebron left, that is actually a pretty common misunderstanding.
They lost Shaq, who while not a superstar, was still a very good big man averaging 18 points and 10 rebounds Their 3rd and 4th best players (Varejo and Mo Williams, who while not stars, where high level role players went from playing 70 and 76 games to playing 36 and 31. They were gutted further by losing Ilgauskas who himself almost averaged a double double the season before (13 and 9) and Delonte West who was pretty much their second best players in the playoffs.
I am not trying to say that would even be a playoff team if they kept all those guys/they stayed healthy its probably a 32 win team, maybe a little higher given the weakness of the east.
The 19 win argument is pretty lazy and ignores them gutting their team.
Funny thing is, the lazy narrative is actually repeating now with people acting like a team with Love, Hill, Korver, Thompson, Hood, Clarkson, Nance couldn't compete for a low playoff seed like the Hornets did this year in the east. They are a very similar team and have a 5x all-star that has made two second all-nba teams.
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Everyone just responded “yes jordan would make the finals”. No actual analysis
Jordan has incredible will to win.
It has taken LeBron two more seasons to catch Jordan in stuff like WS, and the like. Jordan still leads in a lot of categories. LeBron is clearly a better passer and rebounder and more all around guy. But MJ is a winner and did not lose to extent LeBron has lost. Its going to get even worse after the sweep in this finals or a game five loss, too. The L in LeBron is for Loser.....
That being said, he is the most productive player of all time in terms of what he brings to the game. The most versatile, a force of nature, but a final winner he is not. This isn't all on him, but he has found some ways to lose over the years .
The cramps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HHxkTHjBZo
The quitting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1PesQ1yA6g
People do not forget this stuff.
Also, Jordan never left to form a super team. He made the Bulls great and stayed with them until he was a winner!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiJ0kBnc8vY
This stuff all happened folks. Can't wait to the Excuselogists explain these things away....
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No clay. That Cavs roster wins like 20 games without Lebron. It sucks. How much playoff success did Kevin Love have prior to cleveland?
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No clay. That Cavs roster wins like 20 games without Lebron. It sucks.
Yeah he is the MVP in the literal sense .
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I posted this on Reddit asking if the Cavs would still be in the Finals with prime Jordan in Lebron’s place.
Not arguing with Jordan's resume. He was greatest ever. They dominated their competition back then. That said, Jordan has a losing record his first 3 seasons carrying a garbage team:
* 1984 age 21: 28 pts, 6 asts, 6.5 rbs, 2.4 stl - Bulls win 38 games
* 1985 age 22: Jordan only plays 18 games. Bulls win 30 games
* 1986 age 23: 37.1 pts, 4.6 asts, 5.2 rbs, 2.9 sl - Bulls win 40 games
Not until 1987 and the arrival of Scottie Pippen did the Bulls win 50 games.
Pippen always gets overlooked. The biggest argument in favor of Pippen is that in 1993 during Title #3 for the Bulls, they won 57 games. Jordan "retires" and the very next season (without Jordan), Pippen carries the Bulls to 55 wins and the second round. Pippen's averages that season: 22 points, 5.6 assists, 8.7 rebounds, 2.9 steals
So FWIW, Jordan never won 50+ games without Pippen, but Pippen won 50+ games with Jordan.
Consider LeBron's performance when the same age as Jordan's first 3 seasons (in which Jordan finished below .500 every year).
* 2006 Age 21: 31.4 pts, 6.6 asts, 7 rbs, 1.6 stl. - Cavs win 50
* 2007 age 22: 27.3 pts, 6 ast, 6.7 rbs, 1.6 st. - Cavs win 50 and make Finals
* 2008 age 23: 30 pts, 7.2 ast, 7.9 rbs, 1.8 stl - Cavs win 45
Jordan finally cracked 50 wins at age 24 during Pippen's rookie season. At age 24, LeBron won 66 games alongside Mo Williams.
History aside, how do you think this Cavs team plays with prime Jordan in LeBron's spot? Is he easier to defend? Harder? Jordan is significantly smaller than LeBron, doesn't have the same shooting range, and doesnt get his teammates involved as much. Do they still sweep the Raptors and get through the length of the Celtics?
Jordan's mid-range shooting in his prime was incredible. Athletically he was a marvel. One of the fiercest competitors the league will ever see. Was he more athletic than LeBron, though? Does the mid-range shooting offer him that much of an advantage considering the length of defenses like the Celtics? Is he that much more of a competitor than LeBron? Explain to me why prime Jordan would do a better job carrying this team.
Honest question. How does it play out? Don't just say "Obviously cuz Jordan is the greatest"... give me some real reasons. LeBron got through the Celtics with his size, strength and range. How does Jordan beat them?
Everyone just responded “yes jordan would make the finals”. No actual analysis. It’s lazy. The Paul Bunyaning of Jordan. Listen, I saw prime Kobe try to carry teams like this Cavs squad and end up winning 35 games and missing the playoffs. Granted, prime Kobe was like 60-70% the player jordan was, but it’s food for thought. Lebron is somehow very underrated. Consider context when dismissing Lebron losses. Jordan wasn’t going against a juggernaut stacked with 4 all-nba players (three of the greatest shooters of all time on one team). Instead Jordan was going against mortal pairs like Malone/Stockton or Payton/Kemp - while playing alongside a top 50 player (Pippen) who only saw his team lose 2 less games (57 to 55) when Jordan retired.
Meh, people talked about Love like he was a superstar (even on these forums) and now act like he is complete chopped liver even though he is in his absolute prime at 29 and was an all-star this year. George Hill, Rodney Hood, and Korver have all been really high level role players or in hill's case, an above average starter for many years. Lebron completely dominates their system and we are now meant to believe all these other players are complete crap all of a sudden? I personally think the Lebron has no help narrative is the lazy one.
They have way more talent than the celtics without irving or hayward, but limped by us and people act like it was some herculean effort by Lebron carrying scrubs. 1) They are not scrubs, 2) if he is the best ever he should be able to beat a team led by a rookie and second year player and lifetime role players playing with me you and moranis.
last time Lebron left the Cavs they won 15 games. If he leaves this group it will be more of the same.
If you are saying it is because they will blow it up tank and will trade love and other good players for picks and prospects I agree. If you are saying the reason the went from winning to 61 to 15 games was just because Lebron left, that is actually a pretty common misunderstanding.
They lost Shaq, who while not a superstar, was still a very good big man averaging 18 points and 10 rebounds Their 3rd and 4th best players (Varejo and Mo Williams, who while not stars, where high level role players went from playing 70 and 76 games to playing 36 and 31. They were gutted further by losing Ilgauskas who himself almost averaged a double double the season before (13 and 9) and Delonte West who was pretty much their second best players in the playoffs.
I am not trying to say that would even be a playoff team if they kept all those guys/they stayed healthy its probably a 32 win team, maybe a little higher given the weakness of the east.
The 19 win argument is pretty lazy and ignores them gutting their team.
Funny thing is, the lazy narrative is actually repeating now with people acting like a team with Love, Hill, Korver, Thompson, Hood, Clarkson, Nance couldn't compete for a low playoff seed like the Hornets did this year in the east. They are a very similar team and have a 5x all-star that has made two second all-nba teams.
Dude that Cavs team after LeBron left was absolutely dreadful... Let's be honest, even the Hornets now would blow them out 118-90.
No clay. That Cavs roster wins like 20 games without Lebron. It sucks. How much playoff success did Kevin Love have prior to cleveland?
That is a whole different argument to make since the Wolves were historically one of the best teams to never make the playoffs. Love in 2013-2014 was a whole different monster 26/12/4 is nothing to sneeze at.
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I posted this on Reddit asking if the Cavs would still be in the Finals with prime Jordan in Lebron’s place.
Not arguing with Jordan's resume. He was greatest ever. They dominated their competition back then. That said, Jordan has a losing record his first 3 seasons carrying a garbage team:
* 1984 age 21: 28 pts, 6 asts, 6.5 rbs, 2.4 stl - Bulls win 38 games
* 1985 age 22: Jordan only plays 18 games. Bulls win 30 games
* 1986 age 23: 37.1 pts, 4.6 asts, 5.2 rbs, 2.9 sl - Bulls win 40 games
Not until 1987 and the arrival of Scottie Pippen did the Bulls win 50 games.
Pippen always gets overlooked. The biggest argument in favor of Pippen is that in 1993 during Title #3 for the Bulls, they won 57 games. Jordan "retires" and the very next season (without Jordan), Pippen carries the Bulls to 55 wins and the second round. Pippen's averages that season: 22 points, 5.6 assists, 8.7 rebounds, 2.9 steals
So FWIW, Jordan never won 50+ games without Pippen, but Pippen won 50+ games with Jordan.
Consider LeBron's performance when the same age as Jordan's first 3 seasons (in which Jordan finished below .500 every year).
* 2006 Age 21: 31.4 pts, 6.6 asts, 7 rbs, 1.6 stl. - Cavs win 50
* 2007 age 22: 27.3 pts, 6 ast, 6.7 rbs, 1.6 st. - Cavs win 50 and make Finals
* 2008 age 23: 30 pts, 7.2 ast, 7.9 rbs, 1.8 stl - Cavs win 45
Jordan finally cracked 50 wins at age 24 during Pippen's rookie season. At age 24, LeBron won 66 games alongside Mo Williams.
History aside, how do you think this Cavs team plays with prime Jordan in LeBron's spot? Is he easier to defend? Harder? Jordan is significantly smaller than LeBron, doesn't have the same shooting range, and doesnt get his teammates involved as much. Do they still sweep the Raptors and get through the length of the Celtics?
Jordan's mid-range shooting in his prime was incredible. Athletically he was a marvel. One of the fiercest competitors the league will ever see. Was he more athletic than LeBron, though? Does the mid-range shooting offer him that much of an advantage considering the length of defenses like the Celtics? Is he that much more of a competitor than LeBron? Explain to me why prime Jordan would do a better job carrying this team.
Honest question. How does it play out? Don't just say "Obviously cuz Jordan is the greatest"... give me some real reasons. LeBron got through the Celtics with his size, strength and range. How does Jordan beat them?
Everyone just responded “yes jordan would make the finals”. No actual analysis. It’s lazy. The Paul Bunyaning of Jordan. Listen, I saw prime Kobe try to carry teams like this Cavs squad and end up winning 35 games and missing the playoffs. Granted, prime Kobe was like 60-70% the player jordan was, but it’s food for thought. Lebron is somehow very underrated. Consider context when dismissing Lebron losses. Jordan wasn’t going against a juggernaut stacked with 4 all-nba players (three of the greatest shooters of all time on one team). Instead Jordan was going against mortal pairs like Malone/Stockton or Payton/Kemp - while playing alongside a top 50 player (Pippen) who only saw his team lose 2 less games (57 to 55) when Jordan retired.
Meh, people talked about Love like he was a superstar (even on these forums) and now act like he is complete chopped liver even though he is in his absolute prime at 29 and was an all-star this year. George Hill, Rodney Hood, and Korver have all been really high level role players or in hill's case, an above average starter for many years. Lebron completely dominates their system and we are now meant to believe all these other players are complete crap all of a sudden? I personally think the Lebron has no help narrative is the lazy one.
They have way more talent than the celtics without irving or hayward, but limped by us and people act like it was some herculean effort by Lebron carrying scrubs. 1) They are not scrubs, 2) if he is the best ever he should be able to beat a team led by a rookie and second year player and lifetime role players playing with me you and moranis.
This year in the ECF, Boston had 6 of the top 8 or 7 of the top 9 players in the series. I think you would be hard pressed to argue that Hill, Korver, etc. were better than Horford, Tatum, Brown, Rozier, Morris, or Smart. I think you could realistically argue Baynes is also better than those players. Obviously James was by the far best player in that series and frankly Love might have been the 2nd best, but 3 to 15 the Celtics were far more talented and better across the board and it wasn't close.
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No clay. That Cavs roster wins like 20 games without Lebron. It sucks. How much playoff success did Kevin Love have prior to cleveland?
lol
I'll indulge you for old times sake my friends
New York Knicks
Hardaway (57 games)
Porzingas (48 games)
Enes Kanter
Michael Beaseley
Jarrett Jack
Courtney Lee
Kyle O'Quinn
wins 29 games
Cavs
Kevin Love
George Hill
Rodney Hood
Larry Nance
Tristan Thompson
Jr Smith
Kyle Korver
8th pick in draft
Wins 10 less games somehow
Got it... lol
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I posted this on Reddit asking if the Cavs would still be in the Finals with prime Jordan in Lebron’s place.
Not arguing with Jordan's resume. He was greatest ever. They dominated their competition back then. That said, Jordan has a losing record his first 3 seasons carrying a garbage team:
* 1984 age 21: 28 pts, 6 asts, 6.5 rbs, 2.4 stl - Bulls win 38 games
* 1985 age 22: Jordan only plays 18 games. Bulls win 30 games
* 1986 age 23: 37.1 pts, 4.6 asts, 5.2 rbs, 2.9 sl - Bulls win 40 games
Not until 1987 and the arrival of Scottie Pippen did the Bulls win 50 games.
Pippen always gets overlooked. The biggest argument in favor of Pippen is that in 1993 during Title #3 for the Bulls, they won 57 games. Jordan "retires" and the very next season (without Jordan), Pippen carries the Bulls to 55 wins and the second round. Pippen's averages that season: 22 points, 5.6 assists, 8.7 rebounds, 2.9 steals
So FWIW, Jordan never won 50+ games without Pippen, but Pippen won 50+ games with Jordan.
Consider LeBron's performance when the same age as Jordan's first 3 seasons (in which Jordan finished below .500 every year).
* 2006 Age 21: 31.4 pts, 6.6 asts, 7 rbs, 1.6 stl. - Cavs win 50
* 2007 age 22: 27.3 pts, 6 ast, 6.7 rbs, 1.6 st. - Cavs win 50 and make Finals
* 2008 age 23: 30 pts, 7.2 ast, 7.9 rbs, 1.8 stl - Cavs win 45
Jordan finally cracked 50 wins at age 24 during Pippen's rookie season. At age 24, LeBron won 66 games alongside Mo Williams.
History aside, how do you think this Cavs team plays with prime Jordan in LeBron's spot? Is he easier to defend? Harder? Jordan is significantly smaller than LeBron, doesn't have the same shooting range, and doesnt get his teammates involved as much. Do they still sweep the Raptors and get through the length of the Celtics?
Jordan's mid-range shooting in his prime was incredible. Athletically he was a marvel. One of the fiercest competitors the league will ever see. Was he more athletic than LeBron, though? Does the mid-range shooting offer him that much of an advantage considering the length of defenses like the Celtics? Is he that much more of a competitor than LeBron? Explain to me why prime Jordan would do a better job carrying this team.
Honest question. How does it play out? Don't just say "Obviously cuz Jordan is the greatest"... give me some real reasons. LeBron got through the Celtics with his size, strength and range. How does Jordan beat them?
Everyone just responded “yes jordan would make the finals”. No actual analysis. It’s lazy. The Paul Bunyaning of Jordan. Listen, I saw prime Kobe try to carry teams like this Cavs squad and end up winning 35 games and missing the playoffs. Granted, prime Kobe was like 60-70% the player jordan was, but it’s food for thought. Lebron is somehow very underrated. Consider context when dismissing Lebron losses. Jordan wasn’t going against a juggernaut stacked with 4 all-nba players (three of the greatest shooters of all time on one team). Instead Jordan was going against mortal pairs like Malone/Stockton or Payton/Kemp - while playing alongside a top 50 player (Pippen) who only saw his team lose 2 less games (57 to 55) when Jordan retired.
Meh, people talked about Love like he was a superstar (even on these forums) and now act like he is complete chopped liver even though he is in his absolute prime at 29 and was an all-star this year. George Hill, Rodney Hood, and Korver have all been really high level role players or in hill's case, an above average starter for many years. Lebron completely dominates their system and we are now meant to believe all these other players are complete crap all of a sudden? I personally think the Lebron has no help narrative is the lazy one.
They have way more talent than the celtics without irving or hayward, but limped by us and people act like it was some herculean effort by Lebron carrying scrubs. 1) They are not scrubs, 2) if he is the best ever he should be able to beat a team led by a rookie and second year player and lifetime role players playing with me you and moranis.
This year in the ECF, Boston had 6 of the top 8 or 7 of the top 9 players in the series. I think you would be hard pressed to argue that Hill, Korver, etc. were better than Horford, Tatum, Brown, Rozier, Morris, or Smart. I think you could realistically argue Baynes is also better than those players. Obviously James was by the far best player in that series and frankly Love might have been the 2nd best, but 3 to 15 the Celtics were far more talented and better across the board and it wasn't close.
Moranis, you got some cajones even making that argument after your barrage of posts talking how great the guys they got at the deadline were. I don't have any interest in arguing you with you on your 180's but I can pull up some posts from 4 months ago that would make this new take pretty embarrassing for you.
Here is one from March: "They have better individual defenders this year then they did last year and they entered last year playing as a bottom 3 defense for the entire second half of the year before turning it on in the playoffs and finishing as a top 3 defense in the playoffs. Obviously, they will miss Irving's scoring and ability to take games over, but Hill is a better defender and better 3 point shooter than Irving (Irving is obviously a much much better player). Instead of Smith, Shumpert, and Deron Williams, they will have Hood, Smith, and Clarkson, which is a much better 3 some on both ends of the floor. Korver is Korver and Thompson is Thompson, though Thompson will get far less minutes this year and will come off the bench rather than start. They will replace Frye and R. Jefferson with Green and Nance. They have guys like Osman and Zizic on the deep bench instead of Derrick Williams, James Jones, and Dahntay Jones.
In other words, defensively they have the potential to be far better then they were last year, when they were blowing teams out in the East and a top 3 defensive team in the playoffs. "
So they were potentially better than last year despite losing Irving, but 3 months later they are all worse than Smart, Rozier, Morris and potentially baynes? I mean... what the...
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I posted this on Reddit asking if the Cavs would still be in the Finals with prime Jordan in Lebron’s place.
Not arguing with Jordan's resume. He was greatest ever. They dominated their competition back then. That said, Jordan has a losing record his first 3 seasons carrying a garbage team:
* 1984 age 21: 28 pts, 6 asts, 6.5 rbs, 2.4 stl - Bulls win 38 games
* 1985 age 22: Jordan only plays 18 games. Bulls win 30 games
* 1986 age 23: 37.1 pts, 4.6 asts, 5.2 rbs, 2.9 sl - Bulls win 40 games
Not until 1987 and the arrival of Scottie Pippen did the Bulls win 50 games.
Pippen always gets overlooked. The biggest argument in favor of Pippen is that in 1993 during Title #3 for the Bulls, they won 57 games. Jordan "retires" and the very next season (without Jordan), Pippen carries the Bulls to 55 wins and the second round. Pippen's averages that season: 22 points, 5.6 assists, 8.7 rebounds, 2.9 steals
So FWIW, Jordan never won 50+ games without Pippen, but Pippen won 50+ games with Jordan.
Consider LeBron's performance when the same age as Jordan's first 3 seasons (in which Jordan finished below .500 every year).
* 2006 Age 21: 31.4 pts, 6.6 asts, 7 rbs, 1.6 stl. - Cavs win 50
* 2007 age 22: 27.3 pts, 6 ast, 6.7 rbs, 1.6 st. - Cavs win 50 and make Finals
* 2008 age 23: 30 pts, 7.2 ast, 7.9 rbs, 1.8 stl - Cavs win 45
Jordan finally cracked 50 wins at age 24 during Pippen's rookie season. At age 24, LeBron won 66 games alongside Mo Williams.
History aside, how do you think this Cavs team plays with prime Jordan in LeBron's spot? Is he easier to defend? Harder? Jordan is significantly smaller than LeBron, doesn't have the same shooting range, and doesnt get his teammates involved as much. Do they still sweep the Raptors and get through the length of the Celtics?
Jordan's mid-range shooting in his prime was incredible. Athletically he was a marvel. One of the fiercest competitors the league will ever see. Was he more athletic than LeBron, though? Does the mid-range shooting offer him that much of an advantage considering the length of defenses like the Celtics? Is he that much more of a competitor than LeBron? Explain to me why prime Jordan would do a better job carrying this team.
Honest question. How does it play out? Don't just say "Obviously cuz Jordan is the greatest"... give me some real reasons. LeBron got through the Celtics with his size, strength and range. How does Jordan beat them?
Everyone just responded “yes jordan would make the finals”. No actual analysis. It’s lazy. The Paul Bunyaning of Jordan. Listen, I saw prime Kobe try to carry teams like this Cavs squad and end up winning 35 games and missing the playoffs. Granted, prime Kobe was like 60-70% the player jordan was, but it’s food for thought. Lebron is somehow very underrated. Consider context when dismissing Lebron losses. Jordan wasn’t going against a juggernaut stacked with 4 all-nba players (three of the greatest shooters of all time on one team). Instead Jordan was going against mortal pairs like Malone/Stockton or Payton/Kemp - while playing alongside a top 50 player (Pippen) who only saw his team lose 2 less games (57 to 55) when Jordan retired.
Meh, people talked about Love like he was a superstar (even on these forums) and now act like he is complete chopped liver even though he is in his absolute prime at 29 and was an all-star this year. George Hill, Rodney Hood, and Korver have all been really high level role players or in hill's case, an above average starter for many years. Lebron completely dominates their system and we are now meant to believe all these other players are complete crap all of a sudden? I personally think the Lebron has no help narrative is the lazy one.
They have way more talent than the celtics without irving or hayward, but limped by us and people act like it was some herculean effort by Lebron carrying scrubs. 1) They are not scrubs, 2) if he is the best ever he should be able to beat a team led by a rookie and second year player and lifetime role players playing with me you and moranis.
last time Lebron left the Cavs they won 15 games. If he leaves this group it will be more of the same.
If you are saying it is because they will blow it up tank and will trade love and other good players for picks and prospects I agree. If you are saying the reason the went from winning to 61 to 15 games was just because Lebron left, that is actually a pretty common misunderstanding.
They lost Shaq, who while not a superstar, was still a very good big man averaging 18 points and 10 rebounds Their 3rd and 4th best players (Varejo and Mo Williams, who while not stars, where high level role players went from playing 70 and 76 games to playing 36 and 31. They were gutted further by losing Ilgauskas who himself almost averaged a double double the season before (13 and 9) and Delonte West who was pretty much their second best players in the playoffs.
I am not trying to say that would even be a playoff team if they kept all those guys/they stayed healthy its probably a 32 win team, maybe a little higher given the weakness of the east.
The 19 win argument is pretty lazy and ignores them gutting their team.
Funny thing is, the lazy narrative is actually repeating now with people acting like a team with Love, Hill, Korver, Thompson, Hood, Clarkson, Nance couldn't compete for a low playoff seed like the Hornets did this year in the east. They are a very similar team and have a 5x all-star that has made two second all-nba teams.
Dude that Cavs team after LeBron left was absolutely dreadful... Let's be honest, even the Hornets now would blow them out 118-90.
No clay. That Cavs roster wins like 20 games without Lebron. It sucks. How much playoff success did Kevin Love have prior to cleveland?
That is a whole different argument to make since the Wolves were historically one of the best teams to never make the playoffs. Love in 2013-2014 was a whole different monster 26/12/4 is nothing to sneeze at.
Monkhouse did you just gloss over my entire post where I pointed out all the other guys they lost at the same time as Lebron?
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Has Jordan ever been swept?
Yes by us with Larry Bird and the crew early in his career but never in the finals.
Jordan now 6-0 in finals and LBJ has lost 6 and won three........
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I think MJ, like LeBron also did quit.
2 times after 3-peats.
The difference is that he never did it on the floor, he did it in press conferences.
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I posted this on Reddit asking if the Cavs would still be in the Finals with prime Jordan in Lebron’s place.
Not arguing with Jordan's resume. He was greatest ever. They dominated their competition back then. That said, Jordan has a losing record his first 3 seasons carrying a garbage team:
* 1984 age 21: 28 pts, 6 asts, 6.5 rbs, 2.4 stl - Bulls win 38 games
* 1985 age 22: Jordan only plays 18 games. Bulls win 30 games
* 1986 age 23: 37.1 pts, 4.6 asts, 5.2 rbs, 2.9 sl - Bulls win 40 games
Not until 1987 and the arrival of Scottie Pippen did the Bulls win 50 games.
Pippen always gets overlooked. The biggest argument in favor of Pippen is that in 1993 during Title #3 for the Bulls, they won 57 games. Jordan "retires" and the very next season (without Jordan), Pippen carries the Bulls to 55 wins and the second round. Pippen's averages that season: 22 points, 5.6 assists, 8.7 rebounds, 2.9 steals
So FWIW, Jordan never won 50+ games without Pippen, but Pippen won 50+ games with Jordan.
Consider LeBron's performance when the same age as Jordan's first 3 seasons (in which Jordan finished below .500 every year).
* 2006 Age 21: 31.4 pts, 6.6 asts, 7 rbs, 1.6 stl. - Cavs win 50
* 2007 age 22: 27.3 pts, 6 ast, 6.7 rbs, 1.6 st. - Cavs win 50 and make Finals
* 2008 age 23: 30 pts, 7.2 ast, 7.9 rbs, 1.8 stl - Cavs win 45
Jordan finally cracked 50 wins at age 24 during Pippen's rookie season. At age 24, LeBron won 66 games alongside Mo Williams.
History aside, how do you think this Cavs team plays with prime Jordan in LeBron's spot? Is he easier to defend? Harder? Jordan is significantly smaller than LeBron, doesn't have the same shooting range, and doesnt get his teammates involved as much. Do they still sweep the Raptors and get through the length of the Celtics?
Jordan's mid-range shooting in his prime was incredible. Athletically he was a marvel. One of the fiercest competitors the league will ever see. Was he more athletic than LeBron, though? Does the mid-range shooting offer him that much of an advantage considering the length of defenses like the Celtics? Is he that much more of a competitor than LeBron? Explain to me why prime Jordan would do a better job carrying this team.
Honest question. How does it play out? Don't just say "Obviously cuz Jordan is the greatest"... give me some real reasons. LeBron got through the Celtics with his size, strength and range. How does Jordan beat them?
Everyone just responded “yes jordan would make the finals”. No actual analysis. It’s lazy. The Paul Bunyaning of Jordan. Listen, I saw prime Kobe try to carry teams like this Cavs squad and end up winning 35 games and missing the playoffs. Granted, prime Kobe was like 60-70% the player jordan was, but it’s food for thought. Lebron is somehow very underrated. Consider context when dismissing Lebron losses. Jordan wasn’t going against a juggernaut stacked with 4 all-nba players (three of the greatest shooters of all time on one team). Instead Jordan was going against mortal pairs like Malone/Stockton or Payton/Kemp - while playing alongside a top 50 player (Pippen) who only saw his team lose 2 less games (57 to 55) when Jordan retired.
Meh, people talked about Love like he was a superstar (even on these forums) and now act like he is complete chopped liver even though he is in his absolute prime at 29 and was an all-star this year. George Hill, Rodney Hood, and Korver have all been really high level role players or in hill's case, an above average starter for many years. Lebron completely dominates their system and we are now meant to believe all these other players are complete crap all of a sudden? I personally think the Lebron has no help narrative is the lazy one.
They have way more talent than the celtics without irving or hayward, but limped by us and people act like it was some herculean effort by Lebron carrying scrubs. 1) They are not scrubs, 2) if he is the best ever he should be able to beat a team led by a rookie and second year player and lifetime role players playing with me you and moranis.
This year in the ECF, Boston had 6 of the top 8 or 7 of the top 9 players in the series. I think you would be hard pressed to argue that Hill, Korver, etc. were better than Horford, Tatum, Brown, Rozier, Morris, or Smart. I think you could realistically argue Baynes is also better than those players. Obviously James was by the far best player in that series and frankly Love might have been the 2nd best, but 3 to 15 the Celtics were far more talented and better across the board and it wasn't close.
Moranis, you got some cajones even making that argument after your barrage of posts talking how great the guys they got at the deadline were. I don't have any interest in arguing you with you on your 180's but I can pull up some posts from 4 months ago that would make this new take pretty embarrassing for you.
Here is one from March: "They have better individual defenders this year then they did last year and they entered last year playing as a bottom 3 defense for the entire second half of the year before turning it on in the playoffs and finishing as a top 3 defense in the playoffs. Obviously, they will miss Irving's scoring and ability to take games over, but Hill is a better defender and better 3 point shooter than Irving (Irving is obviously a much much better player). Instead of Smith, Shumpert, and Deron Williams, they will have Hood, Smith, and Clarkson, which is a much better 3 some on both ends of the floor. Korver is Korver and Thompson is Thompson, though Thompson will get far less minutes this year and will come off the bench rather than start. They will replace Frye and R. Jefferson with Green and Nance. They have guys like Osman and Zizic on the deep bench instead of Derrick Williams, James Jones, and Dahntay Jones.
In other words, defensively they have the potential to be far better then they were last year, when they were blowing teams out in the East and a top 3 defensive team in the playoffs. "
So they were potentially better than last year despite losing Irving, but 3 months later they are all worse than Smart, Rozier, Morris and potentially baynes? I mean... what the...
they were better defensively then they were last year. Glad to see your consistently bringing up prior statements, act like they are inconsistent, and then claim I'm flip flopping when I'm not still hasn't changed. I'm beginning to think English is not your native language. The Cavs in the playoffs were a better defensive team then the Cavs from the playoffs last year. That is what I said in March and that is what these playoffs showed to be true.
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Think about this for a moment on every team he ever played Jordan was the alpha male in the clutch moments, LeBron has Kyrie hit the winning shot in CLE, Bosh hit one in MIA, he deferred to these guys when it mattered most. MJ never did that.
For the record, I dislike both of these guys because they are not Celtics. I strongly dislike LeBron and I strongly dislike Jordan. Both are great player, though, but I don't care for them because they are not Celtics. I think Jordan is the better of the two and I had to win a game with my life on the line I am choosing MJ. If I had to pick a guy to get a triple double it would be LeBron.
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Think about this for a moment on every team he ever played Jordan was the alpha male in the clutch moments, LeBron has Kyrie hit the winning shot in CLE, Bosh hit one in MIA, he deferred to these guys when it mattered most. MJ never did that.
For the record, I dislike both of these guys because they are not Celtics. I strongly dislike LeBron and I strongly dislike Jordan. Both are great player, though, but I don't care for them because they are not Celtics. I think Jordan is the better of the two and I had to win a game with my life on the line I am choosing MJ. If I had to pick a guy to get a triple double it would be LeBron.
TP...exactly the way I feel.
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Wait, who is getting 30%+ vote for other besides MJ or Lebron?
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Wait, who is getting 30%+ vote for other besides MJ or Lebron?
Bill, Kareem, Wilt are probably some. Bird and Magic too.
I'd have all those guys before LeBron
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Wait, who is getting 30%+ vote for other besides MJ or Lebron?
Bill, Kareem, Wilt are probably some. Bird and Magic too.
I'd have all those guys before LeBron
11 titles in 13 seasons
2 NCAA championships
1 Gold medal
G.O.A.T.
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Wait, who is getting 30%+ vote for other besides MJ or Lebron?
Bill, Kareem, Wilt are probably some. Bird and Magic too.
I'd have all those guys before LeBron
Hit the nail right on the head for me. I have MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Bird and Magic all ahead of Lebron on my best of all time list.
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Wait, who is getting 30%+ vote for other besides MJ or Lebron?
Bill, Kareem, Wilt are probably some. Bird and Magic too.
I'd have all those guys before LeBron
11 titles in 13 seasons
2 NCAA championships
1 Gold medal
G.O.A.T.
His trophy cabinet is probably bigger than my house
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Bill Russell
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I posted this on Reddit asking if the Cavs would still be in the Finals with prime Jordan in Lebron’s place.
Not arguing with Jordan's resume. He was greatest ever. They dominated their competition back then. That said, Jordan has a losing record his first 3 seasons carrying a garbage team:
* 1984 age 21: 28 pts, 6 asts, 6.5 rbs, 2.4 stl - Bulls win 38 games
* 1985 age 22: Jordan only plays 18 games. Bulls win 30 games
* 1986 age 23: 37.1 pts, 4.6 asts, 5.2 rbs, 2.9 sl - Bulls win 40 games
Not until 1987 and the arrival of Scottie Pippen did the Bulls win 50 games.
Pippen always gets overlooked. The biggest argument in favor of Pippen is that in 1993 during Title #3 for the Bulls, they won 57 games. Jordan "retires" and the very next season (without Jordan), Pippen carries the Bulls to 55 wins and the second round. Pippen's averages that season: 22 points, 5.6 assists, 8.7 rebounds, 2.9 steals
So FWIW, Jordan never won 50+ games without Pippen, but Pippen won 50+ games with Jordan.
Consider LeBron's performance when the same age as Jordan's first 3 seasons (in which Jordan finished below .500 every year).
* 2006 Age 21: 31.4 pts, 6.6 asts, 7 rbs, 1.6 stl. - Cavs win 50
* 2007 age 22: 27.3 pts, 6 ast, 6.7 rbs, 1.6 st. - Cavs win 50 and make Finals
* 2008 age 23: 30 pts, 7.2 ast, 7.9 rbs, 1.8 stl - Cavs win 45
Jordan finally cracked 50 wins at age 24 during Pippen's rookie season. At age 24, LeBron won 66 games alongside Mo Williams.
History aside, how do you think this Cavs team plays with prime Jordan in LeBron's spot? Is he easier to defend? Harder? Jordan is significantly smaller than LeBron, doesn't have the same shooting range, and doesnt get his teammates involved as much. Do they still sweep the Raptors and get through the length of the Celtics?
Jordan's mid-range shooting in his prime was incredible. Athletically he was a marvel. One of the fiercest competitors the league will ever see. Was he more athletic than LeBron, though? Does the mid-range shooting offer him that much of an advantage considering the length of defenses like the Celtics? Is he that much more of a competitor than LeBron? Explain to me why prime Jordan would do a better job carrying this team.
Honest question. How does it play out? Don't just say "Obviously cuz Jordan is the greatest"... give me some real reasons. LeBron got through the Celtics with his size, strength and range. How does Jordan beat them?
Everyone just responded “yes jordan would make the finals”. No actual analysis. It’s lazy. The Paul Bunyaning of Jordan. Listen, I saw prime Kobe try to carry teams like this Cavs squad and end up winning 35 games and missing the playoffs. Granted, prime Kobe was like 60-70% the player jordan was, but it’s food for thought. Lebron is somehow very underrated. Consider context when dismissing Lebron losses. Jordan wasn’t going against a juggernaut stacked with 4 all-nba players (three of the greatest shooters of all time on one team). Instead Jordan was going against mortal pairs like Malone/Stockton or Payton/Kemp - while playing alongside a top 50 player (Pippen) who only saw his team lose 2 less games (57 to 55) when Jordan retired.
Meh, people talked about Love like he was a superstar (even on these forums) and now act like he is complete chopped liver even though he is in his absolute prime at 29 and was an all-star this year. George Hill, Rodney Hood, and Korver have all been really high level role players or in hill's case, an above average starter for many years. Lebron completely dominates their system and we are now meant to believe all these other players are complete crap all of a sudden? I personally think the Lebron has no help narrative is the lazy one.
They have way more talent than the celtics without irving or hayward, but limped by us and people act like it was some herculean effort by Lebron carrying scrubs. 1) They are not scrubs, 2) if he is the best ever he should be able to beat a team led by a rookie and second year player and lifetime role players playing with me you and moranis.
This year in the ECF, Boston had 6 of the top 8 or 7 of the top 9 players in the series. I think you would be hard pressed to argue that Hill, Korver, etc. were better than Horford, Tatum, Brown, Rozier, Morris, or Smart. I think you could realistically argue Baynes is also better than those players. Obviously James was by the far best player in that series and frankly Love might have been the 2nd best, but 3 to 15 the Celtics were far more talented and better across the board and it wasn't close.
Moranis, you got some cajones even making that argument after your barrage of posts talking how great the guys they got at the deadline were. I don't have any interest in arguing you with you on your 180's but I can pull up some posts from 4 months ago that would make this new take pretty embarrassing for you.
Here is one from March: "They have better individual defenders this year then they did last year and they entered last year playing as a bottom 3 defense for the entire second half of the year before turning it on in the playoffs and finishing as a top 3 defense in the playoffs. Obviously, they will miss Irving's scoring and ability to take games over, but Hill is a better defender and better 3 point shooter than Irving (Irving is obviously a much much better player). Instead of Smith, Shumpert, and Deron Williams, they will have Hood, Smith, and Clarkson, which is a much better 3 some on both ends of the floor. Korver is Korver and Thompson is Thompson, though Thompson will get far less minutes this year and will come off the bench rather than start. They will replace Frye and R. Jefferson with Green and Nance. They have guys like Osman and Zizic on the deep bench instead of Derrick Williams, James Jones, and Dahntay Jones.
In other words, defensively they have the potential to be far better then they were last year, when they were blowing teams out in the East and a top 3 defensive team in the playoffs. "
So they were potentially better than last year despite losing Irving, but 3 months later they are all worse than Smart, Rozier, Morris and potentially baynes? I mean... what the...
they were better defensively then they were last year. Glad to see your consistently bringing up prior statements, act like they are inconsistent, and then claim I'm flip flopping when I'm not still hasn't changed. I'm beginning to think English is not your native language. The Cavs in the playoffs were a better defensive team then the Cavs from the playoffs last year. That is what I said in March and that is what these playoffs showed to be true.
You know it's ok to say "hey that was a bad take". Honestly I would just be embarrassed at this point. And thanks for the pms guys, I get it
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I posted this on Reddit asking if the Cavs would still be in the Finals with prime Jordan in Lebron’s place.
Not arguing with Jordan's resume. He was greatest ever. They dominated their competition back then. That said, Jordan has a losing record his first 3 seasons carrying a garbage team:
* 1984 age 21: 28 pts, 6 asts, 6.5 rbs, 2.4 stl - Bulls win 38 games
* 1985 age 22: Jordan only plays 18 games. Bulls win 30 games
* 1986 age 23: 37.1 pts, 4.6 asts, 5.2 rbs, 2.9 sl - Bulls win 40 games
Not until 1987 and the arrival of Scottie Pippen did the Bulls win 50 games.
Pippen always gets overlooked. The biggest argument in favor of Pippen is that in 1993 during Title #3 for the Bulls, they won 57 games. Jordan "retires" and the very next season (without Jordan), Pippen carries the Bulls to 55 wins and the second round. Pippen's averages that season: 22 points, 5.6 assists, 8.7 rebounds, 2.9 steals
So FWIW, Jordan never won 50+ games without Pippen, but Pippen won 50+ games with Jordan.
Consider LeBron's performance when the same age as Jordan's first 3 seasons (in which Jordan finished below .500 every year).
* 2006 Age 21: 31.4 pts, 6.6 asts, 7 rbs, 1.6 stl. - Cavs win 50
* 2007 age 22: 27.3 pts, 6 ast, 6.7 rbs, 1.6 st. - Cavs win 50 and make Finals
* 2008 age 23: 30 pts, 7.2 ast, 7.9 rbs, 1.8 stl - Cavs win 45
Jordan finally cracked 50 wins at age 24 during Pippen's rookie season. At age 24, LeBron won 66 games alongside Mo Williams.
History aside, how do you think this Cavs team plays with prime Jordan in LeBron's spot? Is he easier to defend? Harder? Jordan is significantly smaller than LeBron, doesn't have the same shooting range, and doesnt get his teammates involved as much. Do they still sweep the Raptors and get through the length of the Celtics?
Jordan's mid-range shooting in his prime was incredible. Athletically he was a marvel. One of the fiercest competitors the league will ever see. Was he more athletic than LeBron, though? Does the mid-range shooting offer him that much of an advantage considering the length of defenses like the Celtics? Is he that much more of a competitor than LeBron? Explain to me why prime Jordan would do a better job carrying this team.
Honest question. How does it play out? Don't just say "Obviously cuz Jordan is the greatest"... give me some real reasons. LeBron got through the Celtics with his size, strength and range. How does Jordan beat them?
Everyone just responded “yes jordan would make the finals”. No actual analysis. It’s lazy. The Paul Bunyaning of Jordan. Listen, I saw prime Kobe try to carry teams like this Cavs squad and end up winning 35 games and missing the playoffs. Granted, prime Kobe was like 60-70% the player jordan was, but it’s food for thought. Lebron is somehow very underrated. Consider context when dismissing Lebron losses. Jordan wasn’t going against a juggernaut stacked with 4 all-nba players (three of the greatest shooters of all time on one team). Instead Jordan was going against mortal pairs like Malone/Stockton or Payton/Kemp - while playing alongside a top 50 player (Pippen) who only saw his team lose 2 less games (57 to 55) when Jordan retired.
Meh, people talked about Love like he was a superstar (even on these forums) and now act like he is complete chopped liver even though he is in his absolute prime at 29 and was an all-star this year. George Hill, Rodney Hood, and Korver have all been really high level role players or in hill's case, an above average starter for many years. Lebron completely dominates their system and we are now meant to believe all these other players are complete crap all of a sudden? I personally think the Lebron has no help narrative is the lazy one.
They have way more talent than the celtics without irving or hayward, but limped by us and people act like it was some herculean effort by Lebron carrying scrubs. 1) They are not scrubs, 2) if he is the best ever he should be able to beat a team led by a rookie and second year player and lifetime role players playing with me you and moranis.
This year in the ECF, Boston had 6 of the top 8 or 7 of the top 9 players in the series. I think you would be hard pressed to argue that Hill, Korver, etc. were better than Horford, Tatum, Brown, Rozier, Morris, or Smart. I think you could realistically argue Baynes is also better than those players. Obviously James was by the far best player in that series and frankly Love might have been the 2nd best, but 3 to 15 the Celtics were far more talented and better across the board and it wasn't close.
Moranis, you got some cajones even making that argument after your barrage of posts talking how great the guys they got at the deadline were. I don't have any interest in arguing you with you on your 180's but I can pull up some posts from 4 months ago that would make this new take pretty embarrassing for you.
Here is one from March: "They have better individual defenders this year then they did last year and they entered last year playing as a bottom 3 defense for the entire second half of the year before turning it on in the playoffs and finishing as a top 3 defense in the playoffs. Obviously, they will miss Irving's scoring and ability to take games over, but Hill is a better defender and better 3 point shooter than Irving (Irving is obviously a much much better player). Instead of Smith, Shumpert, and Deron Williams, they will have Hood, Smith, and Clarkson, which is a much better 3 some on both ends of the floor. Korver is Korver and Thompson is Thompson, though Thompson will get far less minutes this year and will come off the bench rather than start. They will replace Frye and R. Jefferson with Green and Nance. They have guys like Osman and Zizic on the deep bench instead of Derrick Williams, James Jones, and Dahntay Jones.
In other words, defensively they have the potential to be far better then they were last year, when they were blowing teams out in the East and a top 3 defensive team in the playoffs. "
So they were potentially better than last year despite losing Irving, but 3 months later they are all worse than Smart, Rozier, Morris and potentially baynes? I mean... what the...
they were better defensively then they were last year. Glad to see your consistently bringing up prior statements, act like they are inconsistent, and then claim I'm flip flopping when I'm not still hasn't changed. I'm beginning to think English is not your native language. The Cavs in the playoffs were a better defensive team then the Cavs from the playoffs last year. That is what I said in March and that is what these playoffs showed to be true.
You know it's ok to say "hey that was a bad take". Honestly I would just be embarrassed at this point. And thanks for the pms guys, I get it
So is it your opinion they weren't a better defensive team this year as opposed to last year? Because that is what I said in March, and I maintain they were in fact a better defensive team.
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I think MJ, like LeBron also did quit.
2 times after 3-peats.
The difference is that he never did it on the floor, he did it in press conferences.
It is interesting to think about what our culture today would do with Jordan retiring at age 29. Someone just started a thread calling Durant a "quitter" because he said he would "only" play 5 more years. What would twitter say about MJ leaving to play baseball?
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I bought the FIRST issue of AIr Jordons ......I was dirt poor then and could not afford gas , and food , but I bought that 100.00 pair of sneakers . ......
Mr Jordon was TWICE the player of Lewhiner ......
Maybe ke played hard .....he never quit even if his team was down 30 and he was hurt . He was too proud NOT to do his best .
Lebron crys and wants sympathy for his hand with cast .....please no Le whiner on Celtics
I would not take a free pair of Lebrick sneakers as a gift.
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I think MJ, like LeBron also did quit.
2 times after 3-peats.
The difference is that he never did it on the floor, he did it in press conferences.
It is interesting to think about what our culture today would do with Jordan retiring at age 29. Someone just started a thread calling Durant a "quitter" because he said he would "only" play 5 more years. What would twitter say about MJ leaving to play baseball?
True, interesting stuff. I am not judgemental.
Fans factor in just basketball related tangent, when players are actually much more layered individuals.
I remember Kevin Johnson retiring reletively young saying "I want to be able to run with my kids", Jordans father was murdered, and who knows what KD has on his mind right now.
I wrote Mike quit twice, but I don't mean it in a venomous way. Sometimes, the pressure is just too much for humans to bare. 29 is ridiculously young. It is like a Zeus himself sitting on mount Olymp, stripping himself of his own god powers. Unthinkable for whatever era.
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Every time I read this thread my brain still wonders why anyone is comparing Larry Johnson to Jordan.
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Every time I read this thread my brain still wonders why anyone is comparing Larry Johnson to Jordan.
I love those Grandmama commercials. All time classic commercials.