Poll

How far will the C's go in the playoffs?

First Round (loss to IND)
1 (1%)
Conference Semis (loss to MIL or #8)
35 (36.5%)
Conference Finals (loss to one of TOR/PHI/#6/#7)
17 (17.7%)
NBA Finals (loss)
13 (13.5%)
Banner #18
30 (31.3%)

Total Members Voted: 96

Author Topic: Poll: How far will the C's go in the playoffs?  (Read 6890 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Poll: How far will the C's go in the playoffs?
« Reply #60 on: April 16, 2019, 10:58:21 AM »

Offline Phantom255x

  • Larry Bird
  • *****************************
  • Posts: 29438
  • Tommy Points: 2912
  • On To Banner 18!
Milwaukee will be just too high an obstacle this time. With Kyrie on his top performance, ''big'' Al, an All-star-Hayward, we would have a chance, but I just don't believe we'll be on that level.

are you claiming that Giannis is produces enough to overcome top 10 player in the NBA Kyrie, All star level Hayward AND prime time playoff Al?

Not even Lebron would be able to pull a team past that, cause outside of Middleton, who is a 2nd tier nba player (Non allstar level player) who does Giannis even have? Brogdon will be coming off an 8 week layoff. Bledsoe is Bledsoe. soooo Brook Lopez?

I dont see it.


If the team performs as it should, and makes shots at a 45% clip the Bucks will lose in 5, 6 tops.

I love Kyrie, want him back and think he's one of the best guards in the league.

But since when is he a Top-10 player in the league??  ???
I'm interested in who you think is clearly and easily better than him.

Davis, Durant, Giannis, Harden, James, KD, Embiid, Curry and Kawhi immediately come to my head. That's 9. I think he's right in contention for #10 with Jokic, PG, Westbrook (although I'd argue that Westbrook is actually that good at contributing to wins), Dame and KAT.

I'm not a huge fan of Westbrook's playing style, but I have him ahead. Jokic as well.

But I can agree that there's a lot of viable candidates at #10, including Kyrie.

I think he's Top-15 in the league, somewhere around 12-13.
"Tough times never last, but tough people do." - Robert H. Schuller

Re: Poll: How far will the C's go in the playoffs?
« Reply #61 on: April 16, 2019, 11:39:06 AM »

Offline gouki88

  • NCE
  • Red Auerbach
  • *******************************
  • Posts: 31552
  • Tommy Points: 3141
  • 2019 & 2021 CS Historical Draft Champion
Milwaukee will be just too high an obstacle this time. With Kyrie on his top performance, ''big'' Al, an All-star-Hayward, we would have a chance, but I just don't believe we'll be on that level.

are you claiming that Giannis is produces enough to overcome top 10 player in the NBA Kyrie, All star level Hayward AND prime time playoff Al?

Not even Lebron would be able to pull a team past that, cause outside of Middleton, who is a 2nd tier nba player (Non allstar level player) who does Giannis even have? Brogdon will be coming off an 8 week layoff. Bledsoe is Bledsoe. soooo Brook Lopez?

I dont see it.


If the team performs as it should, and makes shots at a 45% clip the Bucks will lose in 5, 6 tops.

I love Kyrie, want him back and think he's one of the best guards in the league.

But since when is he a Top-10 player in the league??  ???
I'm interested in who you think is clearly and easily better than him.

Davis, Durant, Giannis, Harden, James, KD, Embiid, Curry and Kawhi immediately come to my head. That's 9. I think he's right in contention for #10 with Jokic, PG, Westbrook (although I'd argue that Westbrook is actually that good at contributing to wins), Dame and KAT.

I'm not a huge fan of Westbrook's playing style, but I have him ahead. Jokic as well.

But I can agree that there's a lot of viable candidates at #10, including Kyrie.

I think he's Top-15 in the league, somewhere around 12-13.
Yeah, that's fair. I just don't like how Westbrook could easily make OKC a winner if he just tweaked his game a little, yet doesn't.

I'd like to see Jokic step up in the playoffs before I put him ahead of Kyrie
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Poll: How far will the C's go in the playoffs?
« Reply #62 on: April 16, 2019, 01:01:32 PM »

Offline Green-18

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1253
  • Tommy Points: 130
Milwaukee will be just too high an obstacle this time. With Kyrie on his top performance, ''big'' Al, an All-star-Hayward, we would have a chance, but I just don't believe we'll be on that level.

are you claiming that Giannis is produces enough to overcome top 10 player in the NBA Kyrie, All star level Hayward AND prime time playoff Al?

Not even Lebron would be able to pull a team past that, cause outside of Middleton, who is a 2nd tier nba player (Non allstar level player) who does Giannis even have? Brogdon will be coming off an 8 week layoff. Bledsoe is Bledsoe. soooo Brook Lopez?

I dont see it.


If the team performs as it should, and makes shots at a 45% clip the Bucks will lose in 5, 6 tops.

I love Kyrie, want him back and think he's one of the best guards in the league.

But since when is he a Top-10 player in the league??  ???
I'm interested in who you think is clearly and easily better than him.

Davis, Durant, Giannis, Harden, James, KD, Embiid, Curry and Kawhi immediately come to my head. That's 9. I think he's right in contention for #10 with Jokic, PG, Westbrook (although I'd argue that Westbrook is actually that good at contributing to wins), Dame and KAT.

I'm not a huge fan of Westbrook's playing style, but I have him ahead. Jokic as well.

But I can agree that there's a lot of viable candidates at #10, including Kyrie.

I think he's Top-15 in the league, somewhere around 12-13.
Yeah, that's fair. I just don't like how Westbrook could easily make OKC a winner if he just tweaked his game a little, yet doesn't.

I'd like to see Jokic step up in the playoffs before I put him ahead of Kyrie

Westbrooks' "do-everything" style of play can get a weak team further than Kyrie.  The problem is that his game doesn't translate against equivalent or superior competition.  I bet the Thunder win roughly the same amount of games if you swapped out Westbrook for Kyrie.  That said, I think they would be much better suited to advance in the playoffs with Kyrie and George. 

That's where these arguments can be difficult.  Westbrook can do more with less but Kyrie's skill set translates better against elite competition.

Re: Poll: How far will the C's go in the playoffs?
« Reply #63 on: April 16, 2019, 01:08:37 PM »

Offline Silky

  • NFT
  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2347
  • Tommy Points: 144
Milwaukee will be just too high an obstacle this time. With Kyrie on his top performance, ''big'' Al, an All-star-Hayward, we would have a chance, but I just don't believe we'll be on that level.

are you claiming that Giannis is produces enough to overcome top 10 player in the NBA Kyrie, All star level Hayward AND prime time playoff Al?

Not even Lebron would be able to pull a team past that, cause outside of Middleton, who is a 2nd tier nba player (Non allstar level player) who does Giannis even have? Brogdon will be coming off an 8 week layoff. Bledsoe is Bledsoe. soooo Brook Lopez?

I dont see it.


If the team performs as it should, and makes shots at a 45% clip the Bucks will lose in 5, 6 tops.
Kyrie is a not a top ten player and is vastly inferior to Giannis overall.  Middleton is basically a different version of the best Hayward (compare their best seasons, they are pretty similar).  While I think Al is the best 3rd on either team, a healthy Mirotic isn't that far off at this point.  Lopez, Bledsoe, and Brogdon, compare favorably to Brown, Smart, and Tatum in overall quality of player (at least this season).  Deeper rotation with guys like Hill, Ilyasova, Snell, and Brown and the deeper bench of Connaughton, Wilson, and Frazier are both better than their respective counterparts on Boston (i.e. Morris, Baynes, Rozier, and Theis and Semi, Wanamaker, and Williams). 

The Bucks are a very deep team led by the MVP and possibly best player in the world.  They have an excellent coach.  Their record isn't a fluke, they are that good.

Bostons bench is better than Milwaukee's, not the other way around.

I dont think their record is a fluke, but Boston's talent is on another level to the Bucks'. And that includes Giannis ability to mask travels.

Boston will win the series.

And Kyrie NOT a top 10 player??? Since when?

« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 01:13:45 PM by Silky »

Re: Poll: How far will the C's go in the playoffs?
« Reply #64 on: April 16, 2019, 01:09:42 PM »

Online CelticsPoetry

  • Jaylen Brown
  • Posts: 741
  • Tommy Points: 73
Milwaukee will be just too high an obstacle this time. With Kyrie on his top performance, ''big'' Al, an All-star-Hayward, we would have a chance, but I just don't believe we'll be on that level.

are you claiming that Giannis is produces enough to overcome top 10 player in the NBA Kyrie, All star level Hayward AND prime time playoff Al?

Not even Lebron would be able to pull a team past that, cause outside of Middleton, who is a 2nd tier nba player (Non allstar level player) who does Giannis even have? Brogdon will be coming off an 8 week layoff. Bledsoe is Bledsoe. soooo Brook Lopez?

I dont see it.


If the team performs as it should, and makes shots at a 45% clip the Bucks will lose in 5, 6 tops.
Kyrie is a not a top ten player and is vastly inferior to Giannis overall.  Middleton is basically a different version of the best Hayward (compare their best seasons, they are pretty similar).  While I think Al is the best 3rd on either team, a healthy Mirotic isn't that far off at this point.  Lopez, Bledsoe, and Brogdon, compare favorably to Brown, Smart, and Tatum in overall quality of player (at least this season).  Deeper rotation with guys like Hill, Ilyasova, Snell, and Brown and the deeper bench of Connaughton, Wilson, and Frazier are both better than their respective counterparts on Boston (i.e. Morris, Baynes, Rozier, and Theis and Semi, Wanamaker, and Williams). 

The Bucks are a very deep team led by the MVP and possibly best player in the world.  They have an excellent coach.  Their record isn't a fluke, they are that good.
Horford is sooo underrated, even by Celtics fans. You seriously even mentioned Mirotic in the same sentence? Horford is a slightly worse shooter, but far superior in everything else. All Mirotic can do is shoot. He's basically Ryan Anderson. It's no coincidence that Al's been in the playoffs every season of his career. Also, Middleton, while a better scorer, is nowhere near Hayward as a floor general.

Are we sure Moranis is a Celtics fan?

jk Moranis!
I've been wondering for some time now

Re: Poll: How far will the C's go in the playoffs?
« Reply #65 on: April 16, 2019, 01:20:49 PM »

Offline Silky

  • NFT
  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2347
  • Tommy Points: 144
Milwaukee will be just too high an obstacle this time. With Kyrie on his top performance, ''big'' Al, an All-star-Hayward, we would have a chance, but I just don't believe we'll be on that level.

are you claiming that Giannis is produces enough to overcome top 10 player in the NBA Kyrie, All star level Hayward AND prime time playoff Al?

Not even Lebron would be able to pull a team past that, cause outside of Middleton, who is a 2nd tier nba player (Non allstar level player) who does Giannis even have? Brogdon will be coming off an 8 week layoff. Bledsoe is Bledsoe. soooo Brook Lopez?

I dont see it.


If the team performs as it should, and makes shots at a 45% clip the Bucks will lose in 5, 6 tops.

I love Kyrie, want him back and think he's one of the best guards in the league.

But since when is he a Top-10 player in the league??  ???
I'm interested in who you think is clearly and easily better than him.

Davis, Durant, Giannis, Harden, James, KD, Embiid, Curry and Kawhi immediately come to my head. That's 9. I think he's right in contention for #10 with Jokic, PG, Westbrook (although I'd argue that Westbrook is actually that good at contributing to wins), Dame and KAT.

Personally I hay George above Kyrie, this year especially, but Jolic, Westbrook, Dame and Kat are all below him.

And I dont think I have embiid in the top 10 either.
His performance drops in the playoffs, he takes alot of bad shots, he is not a great shooter, and he has the benefit of the refs and massive usage.

On Lower Usage Kyrie has delivered a higher OWS, only 1 point lower defensive win share, Higher Win Share, Higher win share/48, higher obpm, higher bpm, higher vorp.

« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 01:26:09 PM by Silky »

Re: Poll: How far will the C's go in the playoffs?
« Reply #66 on: April 16, 2019, 01:32:35 PM »

Offline Sophomore

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6227
  • Tommy Points: 823
Milwaukee will be just too high an obstacle this time. With Kyrie on his top performance, ''big'' Al, an All-star-Hayward, we would have a chance, but I just don't believe we'll be on that level.

are you claiming that Giannis is produces enough to overcome top 10 player in the NBA Kyrie, All star level Hayward AND prime time playoff Al?

Not even Lebron would be able to pull a team past that, cause outside of Middleton, who is a 2nd tier nba player (Non allstar level player) who does Giannis even have? Brogdon will be coming off an 8 week layoff. Bledsoe is Bledsoe. soooo Brook Lopez?

I dont see it.


If the team performs as it should, and makes shots at a 45% clip the Bucks will lose in 5, 6 tops.
Kyrie is a not a top ten player and is vastly inferior to Giannis overall.  Middleton is basically a different version of the best Hayward (compare their best seasons, they are pretty similar).  While I think Al is the best 3rd on either team, a healthy Mirotic isn't that far off at this point.  Lopez, Bledsoe, and Brogdon, compare favorably to Brown, Smart, and Tatum in overall quality of player (at least this season).  Deeper rotation with guys like Hill, Ilyasova, Snell, and Brown and the deeper bench of Connaughton, Wilson, and Frazier are both better than their respective counterparts on Boston (i.e. Morris, Baynes, Rozier, and Theis and Semi, Wanamaker, and Williams). 

The Bucks are a very deep team led by the MVP and possibly best player in the world.  They have an excellent coach.  Their record isn't a fluke, they are that good.

Bostons bench is better than Milwaukee's, not the other way around.

I dont think their record is a fluke, but Boston's talent is on another level to the Bucks'. And that includes Giannis ability to mask travels.

Boston will win the series.

And Kyrie NOT a top 10 player??? Since when?

It should be a real interesting test of teams. Giannis is going to be the best player on the floor, and while the players around him aren't as good in general, they are a very good fit to maximize Giannis' talent - and for him to maximize theirs. Lopez' three-point bombing opens the lane for Giannis, and when the defense collapses Giannis' passes give Lopez wide-open shots. The team needs analysis separate from the sum of its parts.

Also, if Smart is out that's a big hit for us. The drop from Smart to Rozier is substantial. Boxing out, calling defenses, big plays, shooting. (That last is a surprise, but there it is).

Re: Poll: How far will the C's go in the playoffs?
« Reply #67 on: April 16, 2019, 02:02:49 PM »

Offline Silky

  • NFT
  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2347
  • Tommy Points: 144
Milwaukee will be just too high an obstacle this time. With Kyrie on his top performance, ''big'' Al, an All-star-Hayward, we would have a chance, but I just don't believe we'll be on that level.

are you claiming that Giannis is produces enough to overcome top 10 player in the NBA Kyrie, All star level Hayward AND prime time playoff Al?

Not even Lebron would be able to pull a team past that, cause outside of Middleton, who is a 2nd tier nba player (Non allstar level player) who does Giannis even have? Brogdon will be coming off an 8 week layoff. Bledsoe is Bledsoe. soooo Brook Lopez?

I dont see it.


If the team performs as it should, and makes shots at a 45% clip the Bucks will lose in 5, 6 tops.
Kyrie is a not a top ten player and is vastly inferior to Giannis overall.  Middleton is basically a different version of the best Hayward (compare their best seasons, they are pretty similar).  While I think Al is the best 3rd on either team, a healthy Mirotic isn't that far off at this point.  Lopez, Bledsoe, and Brogdon, compare favorably to Brown, Smart, and Tatum in overall quality of player (at least this season).  Deeper rotation with guys like Hill, Ilyasova, Snell, and Brown and the deeper bench of Connaughton, Wilson, and Frazier are both better than their respective counterparts on Boston (i.e. Morris, Baynes, Rozier, and Theis and Semi, Wanamaker, and Williams). 

The Bucks are a very deep team led by the MVP and possibly best player in the world.  They have an excellent coach.  Their record isn't a fluke, they are that good.

Bostons bench is better than Milwaukee's, not the other way around.

I dont think their record is a fluke, but Boston's talent is on another level to the Bucks'. And that includes Giannis ability to mask travels.

Boston will win the series.

And Kyrie NOT a top 10 player??? Since when?

It should be a real interesting test of teams. Giannis is going to be the best player on the floor, and while the players around him aren't as good in general, they are a very good fit to maximize Giannis' talent - and for him to maximize theirs. Lopez' three-point bombing opens the lane for Giannis, and when the defense collapses Giannis' passes give Lopez wide-open shots. The team needs analysis separate from the sum of its parts.

Also, if Smart is out that's a big hit for us. The drop from Smart to Rozier is substantial. Boxing out, calling defenses, big plays, shooting. (That last is a surprise, but there it is).

It will be a fight, but I think Giannis is getting figured out.

He cannot shoot, until he does all he has is travels.

So stay way off him and force him to shoot, takes the rest of the team out of the game.

Re: Poll: How far will the C's go in the playoffs?
« Reply #68 on: April 16, 2019, 02:22:39 PM »

Online Moranis

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33431
  • Tommy Points: 1532
Milwaukee will be just too high an obstacle this time. With Kyrie on his top performance, ''big'' Al, an All-star-Hayward, we would have a chance, but I just don't believe we'll be on that level.

are you claiming that Giannis is produces enough to overcome top 10 player in the NBA Kyrie, All star level Hayward AND prime time playoff Al?

Not even Lebron would be able to pull a team past that, cause outside of Middleton, who is a 2nd tier nba player (Non allstar level player) who does Giannis even have? Brogdon will be coming off an 8 week layoff. Bledsoe is Bledsoe. soooo Brook Lopez?

I dont see it.


If the team performs as it should, and makes shots at a 45% clip the Bucks will lose in 5, 6 tops.
Kyrie is a not a top ten player and is vastly inferior to Giannis overall.  Middleton is basically a different version of the best Hayward (compare their best seasons, they are pretty similar).  While I think Al is the best 3rd on either team, a healthy Mirotic isn't that far off at this point.  Lopez, Bledsoe, and Brogdon, compare favorably to Brown, Smart, and Tatum in overall quality of player (at least this season).  Deeper rotation with guys like Hill, Ilyasova, Snell, and Brown and the deeper bench of Connaughton, Wilson, and Frazier are both better than their respective counterparts on Boston (i.e. Morris, Baynes, Rozier, and Theis and Semi, Wanamaker, and Williams). 

The Bucks are a very deep team led by the MVP and possibly best player in the world.  They have an excellent coach.  Their record isn't a fluke, they are that good.
Horford is sooo underrated, even by Celtics fans. You seriously even mentioned Mirotic in the same sentence? Horford is a slightly worse shooter, but far superior in everything else. All Mirotic can do is shoot. He's basically Ryan Anderson. It's no coincidence that Al's been in the playoffs every season of his career. Also, Middleton, while a better scorer, is nowhere near Hayward as a floor general.
Mirotic this year has about a 2% higher TRB% than Horford (making him a better rebounder).  He is about 4.5% lower in TOV% (making him better at taking care of the ball).  He gets to the line at about twice the rate.  Horford is a much better passer and a better defender (though the gap is closing as Al's age is starting to catch up with him).  Horford is better than Mirotic, but it is a lot closer then you are making it out to be.  Prime Horford much better than Mirotic, but Horford isn't in his prime any more.

Hayward is probably a better floor general, but Middleton's AST% this year is 20.1% which is a good deal better than Hayward's is (and is better than Hayward's last year in Utah when he increased his scoring load).  Middleton is a better rebounder.  Hayward gets to the line better and has a better TS% as a result.  Again they are actually pretty close as overall players when Hayward is fully healthy, but Hayward is no where near what he was in Utah and he may never be that player again.
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Poll: How far will the C's go in the playoffs?
« Reply #69 on: April 16, 2019, 02:42:41 PM »

Offline gift

  • NCE
  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3979
  • Tommy Points: 290
Milwaukee will be just too high an obstacle this time. With Kyrie on his top performance, ''big'' Al, an All-star-Hayward, we would have a chance, but I just don't believe we'll be on that level.

are you claiming that Giannis is produces enough to overcome top 10 player in the NBA Kyrie, All star level Hayward AND prime time playoff Al?

Not even Lebron would be able to pull a team past that, cause outside of Middleton, who is a 2nd tier nba player (Non allstar level player) who does Giannis even have? Brogdon will be coming off an 8 week layoff. Bledsoe is Bledsoe. soooo Brook Lopez?

I dont see it.


If the team performs as it should, and makes shots at a 45% clip the Bucks will lose in 5, 6 tops.
Kyrie is a not a top ten player and is vastly inferior to Giannis overall.  Middleton is basically a different version of the best Hayward (compare their best seasons, they are pretty similar).  While I think Al is the best 3rd on either team, a healthy Mirotic isn't that far off at this point.  Lopez, Bledsoe, and Brogdon, compare favorably to Brown, Smart, and Tatum in overall quality of player (at least this season).  Deeper rotation with guys like Hill, Ilyasova, Snell, and Brown and the deeper bench of Connaughton, Wilson, and Frazier are both better than their respective counterparts on Boston (i.e. Morris, Baynes, Rozier, and Theis and Semi, Wanamaker, and Williams). 

The Bucks are a very deep team led by the MVP and possibly best player in the world.  They have an excellent coach.  Their record isn't a fluke, they are that good.
Horford is sooo underrated, even by Celtics fans. You seriously even mentioned Mirotic in the same sentence? Horford is a slightly worse shooter, but far superior in everything else. All Mirotic can do is shoot. He's basically Ryan Anderson. It's no coincidence that Al's been in the playoffs every season of his career. Also, Middleton, while a better scorer, is nowhere near Hayward as a floor general.
Mirotic this year has about a 2% higher TRB% than Horford (making him a better rebounder).  He is about 4.5% lower in TOV% (making him better at taking care of the ball).  He gets to the line at about twice the rate.  Horford is a much better passer and a better defender (though the gap is closing as Al's age is starting to catch up with him).  Horford is better than Mirotic, but it is a lot closer then you are making it out to be.  Prime Horford much better than Mirotic, but Horford isn't in his prime any more.

Hayward is probably a better floor general, but Middleton's AST% this year is 20.1% which is a good deal better than Hayward's is (and is better than Hayward's last year in Utah when he increased his scoring load).  Middleton is a better rebounder.  Hayward gets to the line better and has a better TS% as a result.  Again they are actually pretty close as overall players when Hayward is fully healthy, but Hayward is no where near what he was in Utah and he may never be that player again.

Mirotic isn't on Horford's level. Horford can actually facilitate offense for others. Mirotic tends to thrive off of the facilitation of others. Completely different standards.

Also, TOV% doesn't tell you anything about how often a player turns the ball over relative to offensive success. It only factors in shot attempts and turn overs. So I don't think that stat necessarily moves Mirotic any closer to Horford's value in that area.

Re: Poll: How far will the C's go in the playoffs?
« Reply #70 on: April 16, 2019, 04:12:47 PM »

Online Moranis

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33431
  • Tommy Points: 1532
Milwaukee will be just too high an obstacle this time. With Kyrie on his top performance, ''big'' Al, an All-star-Hayward, we would have a chance, but I just don't believe we'll be on that level.

are you claiming that Giannis is produces enough to overcome top 10 player in the NBA Kyrie, All star level Hayward AND prime time playoff Al?

Not even Lebron would be able to pull a team past that, cause outside of Middleton, who is a 2nd tier nba player (Non allstar level player) who does Giannis even have? Brogdon will be coming off an 8 week layoff. Bledsoe is Bledsoe. soooo Brook Lopez?

I dont see it.


If the team performs as it should, and makes shots at a 45% clip the Bucks will lose in 5, 6 tops.
Kyrie is a not a top ten player and is vastly inferior to Giannis overall.  Middleton is basically a different version of the best Hayward (compare their best seasons, they are pretty similar).  While I think Al is the best 3rd on either team, a healthy Mirotic isn't that far off at this point.  Lopez, Bledsoe, and Brogdon, compare favorably to Brown, Smart, and Tatum in overall quality of player (at least this season).  Deeper rotation with guys like Hill, Ilyasova, Snell, and Brown and the deeper bench of Connaughton, Wilson, and Frazier are both better than their respective counterparts on Boston (i.e. Morris, Baynes, Rozier, and Theis and Semi, Wanamaker, and Williams). 

The Bucks are a very deep team led by the MVP and possibly best player in the world.  They have an excellent coach.  Their record isn't a fluke, they are that good.
Horford is sooo underrated, even by Celtics fans. You seriously even mentioned Mirotic in the same sentence? Horford is a slightly worse shooter, but far superior in everything else. All Mirotic can do is shoot. He's basically Ryan Anderson. It's no coincidence that Al's been in the playoffs every season of his career. Also, Middleton, while a better scorer, is nowhere near Hayward as a floor general.
Mirotic this year has about a 2% higher TRB% than Horford (making him a better rebounder).  He is about 4.5% lower in TOV% (making him better at taking care of the ball).  He gets to the line at about twice the rate.  Horford is a much better passer and a better defender (though the gap is closing as Al's age is starting to catch up with him).  Horford is better than Mirotic, but it is a lot closer then you are making it out to be.  Prime Horford much better than Mirotic, but Horford isn't in his prime any more.

Hayward is probably a better floor general, but Middleton's AST% this year is 20.1% which is a good deal better than Hayward's is (and is better than Hayward's last year in Utah when he increased his scoring load).  Middleton is a better rebounder.  Hayward gets to the line better and has a better TS% as a result.  Again they are actually pretty close as overall players when Hayward is fully healthy, but Hayward is no where near what he was in Utah and he may never be that player again.

Mirotic isn't on Horford's level. Horford can actually facilitate offense for others. Mirotic tends to thrive off of the facilitation of others. Completely different standards.

Also, TOV% doesn't tell you anything about how often a player turns the ball over relative to offensive success. It only factors in shot attempts and turn overs. So I don't think that stat necessarily moves Mirotic any closer to Horford's value in that area.
TOV% is turnovers per 100 plays.  A play includes far more than shots.  I agree that Mirotic is much more a catch and shoot type player.  He doesn't get to the line a lot (especially in Milwaukee where everything runs through Giannis). 
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip