Tank City USA - Boston

[MBunge]

I mean he clearly has talent, he was a McDonald's All American.  He was recruited by a major school.  He played well at said major school.  He then played well in the pros as a rookie, leading his entire draft class in minutes, points, rebounds, and assists.  No matter how weak the draft class, not many players can do that, especially when they compare favorably to some of the best players in history as a rookie.

When Tony Allen was a rookie, he was 23 years old and the Celtics won 45 games.  His per 36 stats for that season were...

14 points
.475 from the field
.387 from 3
6.3 rebounds
1.8 assists
2.2 steals
.7 blocks
2.2 turnovers

Anybody think that young TA couldn't have put up something close to those numbers if he'd been on a horrible team where he got to play all the time?

Now, I don't think MCW is just like TA but you can't just dismiss the whole "played on a crappy team so he could put up stats", "comparatively old and therefore more developed than most NBA rookies" and "weakest draft class in a decade" stuff.  That matters when you're evaluating MCW.

Mike

I agree - that stuff only gets dismissed by someone that doesn't want it to matter because it impacts their viewpoint.

Nothing against MCW but I don't think he'll be better than an average PG on a decent team.  IF Philly is lucky, he develops almost to the point of Mo Cheeks talent but I don't see it happening.

Tony Allen played 16.4 minutes a game.  MCW played 34.5.  You can round a guy up a couple of minutes, you can't more than double a guy.  That isn't a clear picture (Allen was of particular a fouling machine often with 4 or 5 fouls in 20 minutes of game action - he even fouled out of a game with just 8 minutes of playing time).  Allen played in just 3 games where he played over 30 minutes and was pretty much no where near those per 36 numbers in those games except for rebounds and steals.

You have to at least be fairly close in your comparisons or you just look silly.

It's at least equally silly to contend that MCW being 2 to 4 years older than your typical NBA lottery pick, playing for a terrible team where he could rack up stats and being in an awful rookie class mean absolutely nothing.

Here's another comparison.

In 2005-2006, a 22-year-old 2nd year player named Delonte West played 34 minutes a game for a Celtic team that went 33-49.  So, roughly the same age, only played 13 minutes a game the previous year as a rookie and was on a team roughly twice as good or more than MCW's 76ers.

Again, here's Michael Carter Williams per 36 minute stats last season -
.405%
.264% from three
6.5 rebounds
6.6 assists
1.9 steals
3.7 turnovers
17.4 points

And here's Delonte West's stats for 2005-2006
.487 from the field
.385 from 3
4.3 rebounds
4.9 assists
1.3 steals
2 turnovers
12.4 points

Is MCW better than Delonte?  Sure.  So much better that he should be looked at as a building block in a potential dynasty?  Not even close.

Mike

[MBunge]

And just to be clear, MCW's rebounding stat is very good but his assist-to-turnover ratio is worse than Delonte's, his steals number is just a bit better and his shooting percentage's scream out "scored a lot because he was on a horrible team with horrible teammates".

Mike

[Donoghus]

I think MCW will be a serviceable but there isn't much I've seen from him that screams to me "franchise player or cornerstone".  I actually think he'll end up being pretty expendable for Philly.

Embiid will be the lynch pin for the "all star potential team".

[MBunge]

I think MCW will be a serviceable but there isn't much I've seen from him that screams to me "franchise player or cornerstone".  I actually think he'll end up being pretty expendable for Philly.

Embiid will be the lynch pin for the "all star potential team".

If Embiid lives up to his potential, he could be a monster.  But MCW and even Noel are closer to potential all-stars at best and not hall of famers.  It's great to have those kind of players but is it worth decimating your franchise and forcing your fans to suffer through half-a-decade of being the worst team in the league?

Mike

[chambers]

A lot of people are ragging on Phillies strategy and team but if you compared their roster to ours, both teams having 'potential' in the sense of what their players might one day achieve as NBA players....I find it pretty reasonable to say that they likely have more All Stars and higher ceilings than our squad.
Obviously that potential has to be reached on both teams but they do have a very nice haul of assets there.
Who on our squad under the age of 25 has the potential to be an All Star vs the philly squad?

Smart
Sullinger
Bradley
James Young
Olynyk.

With sully and smart as the go to guys of potential.

Philly:
Noel
Embid
Mcw
Saric
McDaniels
Jerami Grant

If we had the above rosters swap uniforms and there was no Rondo, I think a lot of critics would be talking about how hopeless the Celtics future would be.
I'll make a topic on the realGM general board for some more opinion but I personally wouldn't be upset with the above roster with those two big men, saric,mcw and a top 4 2015 pick.

If you are going to throw Grant and McDaniels in there, you might as well add Zeller and Powell to the Celtics list. You are right that Philly's roster overall probably has more potential from its young guys, but who knows if it will work out for them. Their organization doesn't have the greatest reputation, and it could fall apart on them in a bad way. I think MCW was overrated his rookie year. Noel will be good, imo. Embiid will be great if he remains injury free, but that is hardly a given unfortunately. Saric? I mean he has good potential, but he's not off the charts or anything. Honestly the main difference maker in terms of potential between the two rosters is Embiid, and he has huge injury question marks. Other than that neither is way ahead of the other in terms of potential. If anything, our guys have more skill, which I appreciate.

I hear you, but I think the 76ers are way ahead of us in terms of potential.
They have far more all star potential than our crew- McDaniels will start for them at SF most likely after dropping significantly in the draft.
Embid is the best big man in the draft since Anthony Davis and the best center since DeMarcus Cousins (as a more complete player given his defensive dominance and combined skill on both ends).
They have Embid, Noel,MCW and Saric as the elite young core. We have Smart and Sullinger and Olynyk as our potential elites under 25.
I'd have to say I'd gamble on the 4 above over our 3. We are lucky that we'll have a good shot at retaining Rondo. Still going to need valuable trade assets or 2 of the above to turn into near All Stars at the very least.

I just think it's important to look at our own situation and if you think it's fair to criticize them then look at our roster and other than Smart and Sully we aren't really looking at any future All Stars.
They'll also likely have a better pick this season vs our pick.


Michael carter Williams rookie comparison for y'all.....
Carter Williams: 17.4 points, 6.6 assists, 6.5 rebounds, 1.9 steals, 24.6% 3 pt, 40.5% FG
Per 36 minutes mystery player: 17.6 points 3 assists 4.3 rebounds 1.6 steals, 37.5% 3 pt,  41.7% FG =


Kobe.

[gpap]

And just to be clear, MCW's rebounding stat is very good but his assist-to-turnover ratio is worse than Delonte's, his steals number is just a bit better and his shooting percentage's scream out "scored a lot because he was on a horrible team with horrible teammates".

Mike

If I may though, I don't understand why this part is always either criticized or looked down upon.

To me (and I know it's a matter of opinion or interpretation) if you can score alot means you're an efficient player in at least one aspect of the game.

Whether it was for a "good" team or a "bad" team is really irrelevant, is it not?

In other words, is your team somehow suffering because you're scoring alot?

[BudweiserCeltic]

And just to be clear, MCW's rebounding stat is very good but his assist-to-turnover ratio is worse than Delonte's, his steals number is just a bit better and his shooting percentage's scream out "scored a lot because he was on a horrible team with horrible teammates".

Mike

If I may though, I don't understand why this part is always either criticized or looked down upon.

To me (and I know it's a matter of opinion or interpretation) if you can score alot means you're an efficient player in at least one aspect of the game.

Whether it was for a "good" team or a "bad" team is really irrelevant, is it not?

In other words, is your team somehow suffering because you're scoring alot?

Score a lot <> efficient

[Donoghus]

In other words, is your team somehow suffering because you're scoring alot?

Its a loaded question, twofold.

1) Are you winning those games?
2) Are you making your teammates better which, in turn, is leading your team to play better?

If someone is just a "get his" type of scorer than the answer to your question might actually be "Yes".

[BballTim]

A lot of people are ragging on Phillies strategy and team but if you compared their roster to ours, both teams having 'potential' in the sense of what their players might one day achieve as NBA players....I find it pretty reasonable to say that they likely have more All Stars and higher ceilings than our squad.
Obviously that potential has to be reached on both teams but they do have a very nice haul of assets there.
Who on our squad under the age of 25 has the potential to be an All Star vs the philly squad?

Smart
Sullinger
Bradley
James Young
Olynyk.

With sully and smart as the go to guys of potential.

Philly:
Noel
Embid
Mcw
Saric
McDaniels
Jerami Grant

If we had the above rosters swap uniforms and there was no Rondo, I think a lot of critics would be talking about how hopeless the Celtics future would be.
I'll make a topic on the realGM general board for some more opinion but I personally wouldn't be upset with the above roster with those two big men, saric,mcw and a top 4 2015 pick.

If you are going to throw Grant and McDaniels in there, you might as well add Zeller and Powell to the Celtics list. You are right that Philly's roster overall probably has more potential from its young guys, but who knows if it will work out for them. Their organization doesn't have the greatest reputation, and it could fall apart on them in a bad way. I think MCW was overrated his rookie year. Noel will be good, imo. Embiid will be great if he remains injury free, but that is hardly a given unfortunately. Saric? I mean he has good potential, but he's not off the charts or anything. Honestly the main difference maker in terms of potential between the two rosters is Embiid, and he has huge injury question marks. Other than that neither is way ahead of the other in terms of potential. If anything, our guys have more skill, which I appreciate.

I hear you, but I think the 76ers are way ahead of us in terms of potential.
They have far more all star potential than our crew- McDaniels will start for them at SF most likely after dropping significantly in the draft.
Embid is the best big man in the draft since Anthony Davis and the best center since DeMarcus Cousins (as a more complete player given his defensive dominance and combined skill on both ends).
They have Embid, Noel,MCW and Saric as the elite young core. We have Smart and Sullinger and Olynyk as our potential elites under 25.
I'd have to say I'd gamble on the 4 above over our 3. We are lucky that we'll have a good shot at retaining Rondo. Still going to need valuable trade assets or 2 of the above to turn into near All Stars at the very least.

I just think it's important to look at our own situation and if you think it's fair to criticize them then look at our roster and other than Smart and Sully we aren't really looking at any future All Stars.
They'll also likely have a better pick this season vs our pick.


Michael carter Williams rookie comparison for y'all.....
Carter Williams: 17.4 points, 6.6 assists, 6.5 rebounds, 1.9 steals, 24.6% 3 pt, 40.5% FG
Per 36 minutes mystery player: 17.6 points 3 assists 4.3 rebounds 1.6 steals, 37.5% 3 pt,  41.7% FG =


Kobe.

  I think of there was a decent chance Saric was going to be an elite player we'd have drafted him. Their player with the most potential (by far) already has multiple worrisome injuries. If he pans out they're in good shape. If he doesn't then they'll probably peak as a 6th or 7th seed.

[MBunge]

A lot of people are ragging on Phillies strategy and team but if you compared their roster to ours, both teams having 'potential' in the sense of what their players might one day achieve as NBA players....I find it pretty reasonable to say that they likely have more All Stars and higher ceilings than our squad.
Obviously that potential has to be reached on both teams but they do have a very nice haul of assets there.
Who on our squad under the age of 25 has the potential to be an All Star vs the philly squad?

Smart
Sullinger
Bradley
James Young
Olynyk.

With sully and smart as the go to guys of potential.

Philly:
Noel
Embid
Mcw
Saric
McDaniels
Jerami Grant

If we had the above rosters swap uniforms and there was no Rondo, I think a lot of critics would be talking about how hopeless the Celtics future would be.
I'll make a topic on the realGM general board for some more opinion but I personally wouldn't be upset with the above roster with those two big men, saric,mcw and a top 4 2015 pick.

If you are going to throw Grant and McDaniels in there, you might as well add Zeller and Powell to the Celtics list. You are right that Philly's roster overall probably has more potential from its young guys, but who knows if it will work out for them. Their organization doesn't have the greatest reputation, and it could fall apart on them in a bad way. I think MCW was overrated his rookie year. Noel will be good, imo. Embiid will be great if he remains injury free, but that is hardly a given unfortunately. Saric? I mean he has good potential, but he's not off the charts or anything. Honestly the main difference maker in terms of potential between the two rosters is Embiid, and he has huge injury question marks. Other than that neither is way ahead of the other in terms of potential. If anything, our guys have more skill, which I appreciate.

I hear you, but I think the 76ers are way ahead of us in terms of potential.
They have far more all star potential than our crew- McDaniels will start for them at SF most likely after dropping significantly in the draft.
Embid is the best big man in the draft since Anthony Davis and the best center since DeMarcus Cousins (as a more complete player given his defensive dominance and combined skill on both ends).
They have Embid, Noel,MCW and Saric as the elite young core. We have Smart and Sullinger and Olynyk as our potential elites under 25.
I'd have to say I'd gamble on the 4 above over our 3. We are lucky that we'll have a good shot at retaining Rondo. Still going to need valuable trade assets or 2 of the above to turn into near All Stars at the very least.

I just think it's important to look at our own situation and if you think it's fair to criticize them then look at our roster and other than Smart and Sully we aren't really looking at any future All Stars.
They'll also likely have a better pick this season vs our pick.


Michael carter Williams rookie comparison for y'all.....
Carter Williams: 17.4 points, 6.6 assists, 6.5 rebounds, 1.9 steals, 24.6% 3 pt, 40.5% FG
Per 36 minutes mystery player: 17.6 points 3 assists 4.3 rebounds 1.6 steals, 37.5% 3 pt,  41.7% FG =


Kobe.

MCW was 22.  Kobe was 18.  Want to compare his stats to what Kobe was doing at 22 on a Laker team that won 56 games?

Mike

[Donoghus]

If MCW turns into Kobe, I'll quit.

[gpap]

In other words, is your team somehow suffering because you're scoring alot?

Its a loaded question, twofold.

1) Are you winning those games?
2) Are you making your teammates better which, in turn, is leading your team to play better?

If someone is just a "get his" type of scorer than the answer to your question might actually be "Yes".

Hmmm, never looked at it that way.

Is there an example(s) of players who were great scorers but were actually holding their teams back?

[fairweatherfan]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Shareef Abdur-Rahim basically made a career out of big numbers on terrible teams.  18 ppg over 12 seasons and only 1 playoff series.

And just to be clear, MCW's rebounding stat is very good but his assist-to-turnover ratio is worse than Delonte's, his steals number is just a bit better and his shooting percentage's scream out "scored a lot because he was on a horrible team with horrible teammates".

Mike

If I may though, I don't understand why this part is always either criticized or looked down upon.

To me (and I know it's a matter of opinion or interpretation) if you can score alot means you're an efficient player in at least one aspect of the game.

Whether it was for a "good" team or a "bad" team is really irrelevant, is it not?

In other words, is your team somehow suffering because you're scoring alot?

Tony Campbell was a mediocre bench player at the beginning and end of his career, but in the middle he dropped 20+ for the first few years of the T'Wolves' existence.  Was he hurting the team by scoring so much?  Hard to say, though it clearly didn't help much.  But the fact that a guy like Tony Campbell was getting so many opportunities to put up numbers was a major symptom of Minnesota being a terrible team.

It can be a chicken-and-egg problem if you're looking for cause and effect, but I'm very comfortable saying that players putting up unusually big numbers is at least related to a team being lousy.

[D.o.s.]

In other words, is your team somehow suffering because you're scoring alot?

Its a loaded question, twofold.

1) Are you winning those games?
2) Are you making your teammates better which, in turn, is leading your team to play better?

If someone is just a "get his" type of scorer than the answer to your question might actually be "Yes".

Hmmm, never looked at it that way.

Is there an example(s) of players who were great scorers but were actually holding their teams back?

For some people, Allen Iverson and Carmelo Anthony are two of the easiest examples. Kobe Bryant's Blue Period (post-Shaq, pre-Pau) is another.

[gpap]

In other words, is your team somehow suffering because you're scoring alot?

Its a loaded question, twofold.

1) Are you winning those games?
2) Are you making your teammates better which, in turn, is leading your team to play better?

If someone is just a "get his" type of scorer than the answer to your question might actually be "Yes".

Hmmm, never looked at it that way.

Is there an example(s) of players who were great scorers but were actually holding their teams back?

For some people, Allen Iverson and Carmelo Anthony are two of the easiest examples. Kobe Bryant's Blue Period (post-Shaq, pre-Pau) is another.

Yeah, I knew after I posed that question that AI's name was going to come up.

As for Melo, I personally don't agree.

I think he's a great scorer and I've never felt he has held his team back.

IMO, he just hasn't been good enough and/or hasn't had the right team surrounding him.

That's one of the reasons why I was all for the Celts going after Melo this summer. I think he would work REALLY well with Rondo and vice versa.

One guy facilitates, the other guy is a go-to scorer