Author Topic: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?  (Read 5147 times)

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Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2019, 11:00:13 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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He's more efficient than Thomas.

Not really.  Thomas posted a .625 TS% scoring efficiency that season.  Irving has been fantastic, but at .602 TS trails Thomas' scoring efficiency.


Fair point.  Thomas got to the line constantly and shot 91% from the line.  His eFG% was .546.  Kyrie's this season is .569.  But when you factor in the free throws, Thomas edges him out slightly. 

Nonetheless, what Kyrie has done offensively for this team is remarkable.

Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2019, 11:10:23 PM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

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Very simple Roy - I don't like Irving for basketball reasons because I think he is bad for the team going forward. I think he hurts our chances at success because his playing style clashes with that of his teammates and his Coach's system and because of constant off-the-court drama that is a distraction for the team.

Thank you for discussing this head on.  I’m not sure you’re a major example of what I was talking about, but I do recall you making some harsh criticism from time to time.

To me, harsh criticism is appropriate at times, and I understand your criticisms. I’ve made many of the same observations that you have.

But, if those criticisms by you or somebody else became all-encompassing, is that productive or enjoyable? Again, I’m not sure that you’re the perfect example. You don’t seemingly salivate over negative Kyrie news, you’re not starting tons of threads on your disdain for him.  In short, you seem like a Celtics fan annoyed by Kyrie. Others seem to fall into a different category.

And, as a pending free agent, much of the “is he right to build around” questions are relevant.  Does that change if he resigns for four years?  Is there a point that even a “hater” tries to accept the reality that he’s a Celtic and attempts to embrace him?

(I was a trade hater rather than a Kyrie hater, but now that he’s a Celtic I’m trying to focus on his amazing gifts. He maybe only gets 90% out of those gifts, and he’s frustrating off the court, but he’s still better than most PGs we’ve had.)
I get people overreacting to out-of-context media hype about Kyrie, or assuming one or two public comments means he's a bad leader and mentor in the lockerroom... I get people not liking him, because he has weird world views... i get people not liking him, because he's yet to commit fully to Boston (something I've explained many times and don't blame him for)... I get people just disliking him, because he represents the first true NBA megastar Boston has ever had in the modern era (not including KG who was an exceptionally unique personality) and all the stuff that comes with being a modern star (major endorsements, social media followings, movies, etc)... I get people not liking him, because he owned Boston before coming to the team...  But the "he's a bad fit" or "his style of play is bad" is the most bizarre to me of all the complaints.   I mean if you compare what Kyrie is doing to Isaiah's MVP-level season.  Thomas shot 46%/38% while taking 19 shots per night, playing 33.8 minutes, and averaging just 5.9 assists with 2.8 turnovers.  We all feel that was objectively the greatest individual season by a Celtic player of the modern era.  Meanwhile, Kyrie is shooting 50%/41% while only taking 18 shots, playing 32.5 minute sand averaging 7 assists with 2.7 turnovers.    He's more efficient than Thomas.  He's a better distributor than Thomas.  He's a better defender than Thomas.  By all accounts, he's a better mentor to the young players than Thomas was and has more leadership qualities.  He's less selfish than Thomas (less shot attempts, more assists, less turnovers, less minutes)...  I mean, Kyrie is playing at a superstar level this season and yet he's still taking less shots than Golden State's 3rd option.  The dude is taking 17.9 shots per game when in reality (based on the fact nobody else on this team has played at a consistent star level), he should be taking more like 24 shots per game similar to James Harden.  His elite efficiency also makes him an ideal fit in a space-and-pace offense... the only guy I'd rather have playing guard for this team would be Steph Curry.   He's also exceptionally clutch and has carried us to some of our greatest victories this season.   

I can at least understand the misguided hate for Kyrie based on many of the above details fans just don't quite understand... but to hate him for his game is ridiculous.

Ridiculous ? huh ?

The ball does not move nearly as well as when Irving is DNP.
I played and coached in college - not trying to be a smart-ass about it, but the ball movement thing seems real obvious.
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Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2019, 11:12:10 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Very simple Roy - I don't like Irving for basketball reasons because I think he is bad for the team going forward. I think he hurts our chances at success because his playing style clashes with that of his teammates and his Coach's system and because of constant off-the-court drama that is a distraction for the team.

Thank you for discussing this head on.  I’m not sure you’re a major example of what I was talking about, but I do recall you making some harsh criticism from time to time.

To me, harsh criticism is appropriate at times, and I understand your criticisms. I’ve made many of the same observations that you have.

But, if those criticisms by you or somebody else became all-encompassing, is that productive or enjoyable? Again, I’m not sure that you’re the perfect example. You don’t seemingly salivate over negative Kyrie news, you’re not starting tons of threads on your disdain for him.  In short, you seem like a Celtics fan annoyed by Kyrie. Others seem to fall into a different category.

And, as a pending free agent, much of the “is he right to build around” questions are relevant.  Does that change if he resigns for four years?  Is there a point that even a “hater” tries to accept the reality that he’s a Celtic and attempts to embrace him?

(I was a trade hater rather than a Kyrie hater, but now that he’s a Celtic I’m trying to focus on his amazing gifts. He maybe only gets 90% out of those gifts, and he’s frustrating off the court, but he’s still better than most PGs we’ve had.)
I get people overreacting to out-of-context media hype about Kyrie, or assuming one or two public comments means he's a bad leader and mentor in the lockerroom... I get people not liking him, because he has weird world views... i get people not liking him, because he's yet to commit fully to Boston (something I've explained many times and don't blame him for)... I get people just disliking him, because he represents the first true NBA megastar Boston has ever had in the modern era (not including KG who was an exceptionally unique personality) and all the stuff that comes with being a modern star (major endorsements, social media followings, movies, etc)... I get people not liking him, because he owned Boston before coming to the team...  But the "he's a bad fit" or "his style of play is bad" is the most bizarre to me of all the complaints.   I mean if you compare what Kyrie is doing to Isaiah's MVP-level season.  Thomas shot 46%/38% while taking 19 shots per night, playing 33.8 minutes, and averaging just 5.9 assists with 2.8 turnovers.  We all feel that was objectively the greatest individual season by a Celtic player of the modern era.  Meanwhile, Kyrie is shooting 50%/41% while only taking 18 shots, playing 32.5 minute sand averaging 7 assists with 2.7 turnovers.    He's more efficient than Thomas.  He's a better distributor than Thomas.  He's a better defender than Thomas.  By all accounts, he's a better mentor to the young players than Thomas was and has more leadership qualities.  He's less selfish than Thomas (less shot attempts, more assists, less turnovers, less minutes)...  I mean, Kyrie is playing at a superstar level this season and yet he's still taking less shots than Golden State's 3rd option.  The dude is taking 17.9 shots per game when in reality (based on the fact nobody else on this team has played at a consistent star level), he should be taking more like 24 shots per game similar to James Harden.  His elite efficiency also makes him an ideal fit in a space-and-pace offense... the only guy I'd rather have playing guard for this team would be Steph Curry.   He's also exceptionally clutch and has carried us to some of our greatest victories this season.   

I can at least understand the misguided hate for Kyrie based on many of the above details fans just don't quite understand... but to hate him for his game is ridiculous.

Ridiculous ? huh ?

The ball does not move nearly as well as when Irving is DNP.
I played and coached in college - not trying to be a smart-ass about it, but the ball movement thing seems real obvious.
Yeah, but ball movement =/= wins. Our point differential is massively better with Kyrie playing, and on the court, than it is either when he's on the bench or DNP.
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Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2019, 11:18:15 PM »

Offline C3LTSF4N

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I’m not gonna quote the last things said since it’s so long but in reference to people not liking Kyrie because he wont commit to Boston; how is this not committing?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M7AVJRbYnFU

This, obviously along with season ticket holders night.  Just because he hasnt played the media’s game and answered it over and over and over?

Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2019, 11:22:17 PM »

Offline C3LTSF4N

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Is it just because the Celtics haven’t won as many games as expected so people think he changed his mind?

Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2019, 11:33:27 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Is it just because the Celtics haven’t won as many games as expected so people think he changed his mind?
Probably something like this. Maybe the people who hate him think if they're vocal enough about their irrational dislike of him he'll actually leave, and they'll be somehow "right" about him!
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Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2019, 11:33:44 PM »

Offline Kuberski33

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The team had all kinds of hype.  They played poorly in the pre season and it carried on to the regular season.  There were many disappointing efforts - 'effort' being the key word because on too many occasions they didn't supply enough of it.  Then they finally start coming around and Kyrie opens his yap and rumors start flying. 

I can see the dislike of him because its easy to question whether he's all in for this team or all in for his ego and perceived status as a leader. 

But hating on everyone, that I don't quite get.  The team is very good and they have a nice habit of playing their best ball against the best teams. Who knows that the future may bring so I'd say just enjoy the current edition. 

They could conceivably be a 2nd tier team next season if things don't work out this summer.  Even if Kyrie re-signs it could very well be a year to year thing - so embrace the chance they have (remote or maybe otherwise) to win it all this season.  At least they're in the mix and we don't yet know this team's ceiling.  The chances that they improve between now and the playoffs are still pretty good.

Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2019, 11:38:40 PM »

Offline C3LTSF4N

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Alright just making sure I hadn’t missed anything obvious. Feeling confident about it then.

Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2019, 11:46:14 PM »

Offline gpap

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I think a large part of the frustration is that our last championship squad was mostly old players that new how to mesh well.

Yeah but people hated them too. Not quite as deeply except for Ray (he was a whipping boy and subject of a million trade threads even before he left) but Pierce's iso play, KG "not being clutch" and "wearing down" were all prominent themes back then. Plus of course endless pro/anti-Rondo arguments. And Rasheed Wallace might've been the most vitriolically hated guy of all til he was nice enough to be a key part of our playoff run then retire with a couple years left on his deal.




I think hating players in general comes from the same place as declaring games lost, the season over, etc. It's defensive pessimism coupled with a reactionary tendency - when something bad happens, radically change what you're doing, just to feel like you're doing something. Fire the coach, fire the GM, bench, trade, cut the players - all would happen dozens of times a season if those posters were in charge. Agree with Pho's familiarity breeding contempt too - when you're sick of a guy, you can't escape him til the team dumps him. Easy to fall in love with potential instead.

Perhaps the 09/10 Celtics squad was a bit polarizing, but the 07/08 Celtics were beloved by all of New England and probably the most entertaining team I've seen in my lifetime (that I can remember.)

That entire season just seemed and felt like they walked on water. The only frustration I can remember was the 8 seed Hawks taking them to game 7 and a little bit of grumbling that maybe age was becoming a factor against a younger, faster team. But after the Celts wiped the floor with them in game 7, that was it.

I don't know if I'll ever see a more entertaining Celtics season in my life time and I don't know if I'll ever see a player single handedly change a team's fortunes around the way KG did.

Sometimes I think Ainge and Wyc should ask Paul and KG to literally have a one-hour pow wow with EVERYONE on this team (including Brad and his staff) and mentor them on what they're doing right and wrong.

They can both share alot of the ups and downs they went through in their careers. I'd throw Doc in there too, but that could be tampering, which we know NEVER happens in the NBA ::)
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 11:53:25 PM by gpap »

Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2019, 11:57:58 PM »

Offline gpap

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I think a large part of the frustration is that our last championship squad was mostly old players that new how to mesh well.

Yeah but people hated them too. Not quite as deeply except for Ray (he was a whipping boy and subject of a million trade threads even before he left) but Pierce's iso play, KG "not being clutch" and "wearing down" were all prominent themes back then. Plus of course endless pro/anti-Rondo arguments. And Rasheed Wallace might've been the most vitriolically hated guy of all til he was nice enough to be a key part of our playoff run then retire with a couple years left on his deal.

That 1st year 2007-2008, I remember being very positive with maybe some doubts about Perk and Rondo. That team was a juggernaut that just crushed everything in it's path. I do remember doubts folks had in the playoffs as we had a rough path. We played a really good Atlanta team in 7 games and then LeBron in 7 games and then a championship squad in the Pistons in 6.

Remember a lot of people said Danny had destroyed the team by trading Al Jefferson for KG and were not shy about expressing it. In addition to no depth, Perk and Rondo aren't ready, etc.

People enjoyed the wins but after seemingly every loss there was a "we can't win the ring, these guys won't get it together" thread. And the playoffs were just a whirlwind of anxiety and pessimism all the way from Game 4 Atlanta to Game 4 LA, with a lot of posters attacking players, sometimes with cause (remember Doc repeatedly playing Sam Cassell over Eddie House despite Cassell having lost a step and not fitting in well at all?). Good times.

My memory could be foggy, but I don't recall anyone saying Ainge destroyed the team by trading Al Jefferson for KG (nor should anyone in their right mind ever say it.)

I do recall there was a portion of the fan base that didn't want to see Jefferson traded for KG (which I couldn't believe) but when the trade happened, the excitement around the Celts was at a fever pitch.

Suddenly there was a season ticket waiting list, and both Perk and Rondo flourished in the presence of the new big 3.

Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2019, 12:02:30 AM »

Online ozgod

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Tldr: Confirmation bias.

There are some people that will never change their mind regardless of overall data, and cling to solitary instances. Sometimes it’s a simple: he had a bad game so I’m right he’s bad, or he had a good game so Im right he’s good. Sometimes the same exact event can be viewed completely different based on your preconceptions. For example, I believe that in big games Kyrie has to carry the late game offensively and see Kyrie jogging down the court because he played a lot of minutes and was conserving. Someone else who has already determined that Kyrie is a (insert here), will see that he’s quit on the team.

This is pretty much it, TP. It's very easy to see the people whose minds are already made up one way or another and they choose to interpret things they see in ways that validate that viewpoint. Some humans just don't like other humans - it doesn't have to be rational, in fact most often it isn't.
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Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2019, 12:10:29 AM »

Offline mmmmm

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Very simple Roy - I don't like Irving for basketball reasons because I think he is bad for the team going forward. I think he hurts our chances at success because his playing style clashes with that of his teammates and his Coach's system and because of constant off-the-court drama that is a distraction for the team.

Thank you for discussing this head on.  I’m not sure you’re a major example of what I was talking about, but I do recall you making some harsh criticism from time to time.

To me, harsh criticism is appropriate at times, and I understand your criticisms. I’ve made many of the same observations that you have.

But, if those criticisms by you or somebody else became all-encompassing, is that productive or enjoyable? Again, I’m not sure that you’re the perfect example. You don’t seemingly salivate over negative Kyrie news, you’re not starting tons of threads on your disdain for him.  In short, you seem like a Celtics fan annoyed by Kyrie. Others seem to fall into a different category.

And, as a pending free agent, much of the “is he right to build around” questions are relevant.  Does that change if he resigns for four years?  Is there a point that even a “hater” tries to accept the reality that he’s a Celtic and attempts to embrace him?

(I was a trade hater rather than a Kyrie hater, but now that he’s a Celtic I’m trying to focus on his amazing gifts. He maybe only gets 90% out of those gifts, and he’s frustrating off the court, but he’s still better than most PGs we’ve had.)
I get people overreacting to out-of-context media hype about Kyrie, or assuming one or two public comments means he's a bad leader and mentor in the lockerroom... I get people not liking him, because he has weird world views... i get people not liking him, because he's yet to commit fully to Boston (something I've explained many times and don't blame him for)... I get people just disliking him, because he represents the first true NBA megastar Boston has ever had in the modern era (not including KG who was an exceptionally unique personality) and all the stuff that comes with being a modern star (major endorsements, social media followings, movies, etc)... I get people not liking him, because he owned Boston before coming to the team...  But the "he's a bad fit" or "his style of play is bad" is the most bizarre to me of all the complaints.   I mean if you compare what Kyrie is doing to Isaiah's MVP-level season.  Thomas shot 46%/38% while taking 19 shots per night, playing 33.8 minutes, and averaging just 5.9 assists with 2.8 turnovers.  We all feel that was objectively the greatest individual season by a Celtic player of the modern era.  Meanwhile, Kyrie is shooting 50%/41% while only taking 18 shots, playing 32.5 minute sand averaging 7 assists with 2.7 turnovers.    He's more efficient than Thomas.  He's a better distributor than Thomas.  He's a better defender than Thomas.  By all accounts, he's a better mentor to the young players than Thomas was and has more leadership qualities.  He's less selfish than Thomas (less shot attempts, more assists, less turnovers, less minutes)...  I mean, Kyrie is playing at a superstar level this season and yet he's still taking less shots than Golden State's 3rd option.  The dude is taking 17.9 shots per game when in reality (based on the fact nobody else on this team has played at a consistent star level), he should be taking more like 24 shots per game similar to James Harden.  His elite efficiency also makes him an ideal fit in a space-and-pace offense... the only guy I'd rather have playing guard for this team would be Steph Curry.   He's also exceptionally clutch and has carried us to some of our greatest victories this season.   

I can at least understand the misguided hate for Kyrie based on many of the above details fans just don't quite understand... but to hate him for his game is ridiculous.

Ridiculous ? huh ?

The ball does not move nearly as well as when Irving is DNP.
I played and coached in college - not trying to be a smart-ass about it, but the ball movement thing seems real obvious.
Yeah, but ball movement =/= wins. Our point differential is massively better with Kyrie playing, and on the court, than it is either when he's on the bench or DNP.

It is massively better with Kyrie playing than when he's on the bench.   Not so massively better than when he's DNP.
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Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2019, 01:24:46 AM »

Offline Scintan

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The better question may be:

What is it about Celtics fans that make them the most hypersensitive homers in Boston sports fandom?

I think this thread has made my point for me.


When people are free to do as they please, they usually imitate each other.

Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2019, 03:14:08 AM »

Offline keevsnick

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To be honest, I think a lot of the criticism our guys get is unfair. Brown was terrible to start the year  but he's also a 22 year old trying to figure out a  different role after leading a team to the ECF who had a hand injury and has been much better for the last 30 games. Hayward  has been bad most of the year, but his leg snapped in half and that was always gonna take time to get back. Horford doesn't put up the huge scoring nights people expect from a max guy, but that was never his game and he is still a huge positive. The list goes on and on.

The guy who confuses me least is Kyrie, I get why he gets the hate. On court he has been amazing, but off court I think its pretty clear he a fairly substantial contributor to any chemistry issues we may have. fans will forgive a lot of stuff, but things they don't like are A) Athletes who fail to  take responsibility B) Athletes who divide the team and air laundry to the media C) Athletes who complain about their exposure despite being insanely compensated to work in the entertainment industry. And Kyrie has done all three of those things, to various degrees. Add in the fact he might leave, the fact the team has gotten worse this year with his addition, the fact he's a little pretentious, and his connection to Lebron and its a perfect storm of hate. People take all of these factors and feel the need to attack his on court performance as well (unfairly), because the simple fact of the matter is its hard to root for someone you don't like.

Re: Help me understand: why the constant attacks on our players?
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2019, 05:50:35 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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To be honest, I think a lot of the criticism our guys get is unfair. Brown was terrible to start the year  but he's also a 22 year old trying to figure out a  different role after leading a team to the ECF who had a hand injury and has been much better for the last 30 games. Hayward  has been bad most of the year, but his leg snapped in half and that was always gonna take time to get back. Horford doesn't put up the huge scoring nights people expect from a max guy, but that was never his game and he is still a huge positive. The list goes on and on.

The guy who confuses me least is Kyrie, I get why he gets the hate. On court he has been amazing, but off court I think its pretty clear he a fairly substantial contributor to any chemistry issues we may have. fans will forgive a lot of stuff, but things they don't like are A) Athletes who fail to  take responsibility B) Athletes who divide the team and air laundry to the media C) Athletes who complain about their exposure despite being insanely compensated to work in the entertainment industry. And Kyrie has done all three of those things, to various degrees. Add in the fact he might leave, the fact the team has gotten worse this year with his addition, the fact he's a little pretentious, and his connection to Lebron and its a perfect storm of hate. People take all of these factors and feel the need to attack his on court performance as well (unfairly), because the simple fact of the matter is its hard to root for someone you don't like.

On Kyrie, give me examples of A and B.   C isn't really accurate.  Also, blaming our struggles ("getting worse") on Kyrie is pretty silly as well. 

Some of what you said is an understandable reason for people to dislike him (fear of him leaving, the fact he's friends with LeBron), but I don't hold that against him.