Author Topic: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)  (Read 413050 times)

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Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1290 on: April 16, 2019, 08:41:00 AM »

Offline Sophomore

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My expectation for the rest of the season is episode 2 is the final preparations for the battle with the Night King.  Episode 3, is the battle with the dead.  I actually expect the humans to defeat the Night King in the north and in that episode and believe that to get it done, Jon will have to fulfill the prophecy and kill Dany to do it.  Episode 4 will be mostly battle aftermath, regrouping, and the march south to take on Cersei.  Episode 5 and probably into Episode 6 will be the battles for Kings Landing and I believe that Jamie will kill Cersei fulfilling that prophecy.  The rest of Episode 6 will be the final aftermath and having everyone alive ending up back where they belong.  I expect all of the remaining Starks to live, though wouldn't be surprised if Bran and/or Sansa end up perishing.  I think Jamie is the only Lannister left (ends up with Brienne ruling Casterly Rock), though could see Tyrion making it through.  I think Gendry survives and takes over his fathers kingdom and probably wed to Arya.  I think Samwell ends up taking over his father's kingdom and basically running that whole part of the world as Jon's hand of the king.


Of course, I've probably got this all wrong, but that is the fun.

I think there is not much bitterness in that ending scenario..
Its been well documented that the ending is going to be so unexpected that some people will go mental and not accept it....or so ive heard.

I think Jon dies sacrificing himself while killing the Night king , Arya will probably be the only Stark left. The imp definitely lives and Jaime kills Cersei.
Bran I think will go back in the past in a sort of twist that will keep us guessing before the end credits roll out.
you don't think Jon killing Dany will cause bitterness?

I think Dani will kill Jon.
Dani isn't essential to the story.  Jon is.

Dani can die and it will not break the storytelling.  If Jon died, it would objectively be poor writing since he's the central arc of the whole thing.

Who appeared to be the focus of season 1? I'd say Ned Stark, out to thwart the Lannisters. Then it was mostly a struggle between Robb and the Lannisters, with vital subplots that affected the outcome (Catelyn's love for her daughters that freed Jaime; Robb's tragic decision to marry; the murderous fights among the Lannisters, etc., etc.).

What's been the central focus since the red wedding? You could certainly say it's the rise of Jon. You could also say it's the rise of Dany, or even Cersei triumphing over her many enemies as she continued being vicious but became smarter/more deadly about it (hello, high Sparrow!). Then there are more side plots than we can count.

We do need to know what happens to Jon - that's a good point, recalling how deep and how far back his arc goes. But it just seems too pat, too similar to the traditions of the epic convention that Martin wants to upend, for Jon to sit the throne in triumph.

The one ending I feel reasonably sure we should not get is the one that Varys, Tyrion, and the Onion Knight contemplated from the battlements of Winterfell: Jon and Dany vanquishing the enemies of the realm and living happily ever after. It just can't end that way, unless Martin sold out completely to fan service (likely with HBO twisting his arm). Only question is how dark it's going to be...
Robb is barely in the books.  The show added all of that stuff because the actor was very popular and they wanted the Red Wedding to have a greater effect. 

Reading the books, this is a story about Jon.  Everything that happens sets up for him to be the prophecy.  Every other character (even the major ones) are there to get Jon to where he needs to be.  The only other logical conclusion is Jamie, but he isn't prominent enough in the books for this to be his story.

Haven't read the books, so can't comment on that.

But do you really think he'd write such a traditional story - where the unwanted boy goes through hardship, turns out to be the prince who was promised, and then goes on to save the realm and reign?

I suppose it's possible; maybe the other deaths do enough to create real tension and he still thinks people want the traditional hero's journey for somebody. But I'd consider it disappointing if there wasn't a significant twist.

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1291 on: April 16, 2019, 12:10:52 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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just throwing this out there for conjecture -- what's the possibility that the living cannot hold/defeat the dead at Winterfell and have to beat a hasty retreat to King's Landing where by episode 5/beginning of 6, the remaining living forces use the better fortified King's Landing to defeat the dead and have the final battle for the Iron Throne?

I don't see it as likely but if Jon were to take out Dany, that would be the best place and time to do it --> when the dead are defeated and he doesn't need the Dothraki or Unsullied to fight that battle any longer.  Also, whoever is destined to kill Cersei would be in the city to do so.

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1292 on: April 16, 2019, 12:38:00 PM »

Offline Moranis

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My expectation for the rest of the season is episode 2 is the final preparations for the battle with the Night King.  Episode 3, is the battle with the dead.  I actually expect the humans to defeat the Night King in the north and in that episode and believe that to get it done, Jon will have to fulfill the prophecy and kill Dany to do it.  Episode 4 will be mostly battle aftermath, regrouping, and the march south to take on Cersei.  Episode 5 and probably into Episode 6 will be the battles for Kings Landing and I believe that Jamie will kill Cersei fulfilling that prophecy.  The rest of Episode 6 will be the final aftermath and having everyone alive ending up back where they belong.  I expect all of the remaining Starks to live, though wouldn't be surprised if Bran and/or Sansa end up perishing.  I think Jamie is the only Lannister left (ends up with Brienne ruling Casterly Rock), though could see Tyrion making it through.  I think Gendry survives and takes over his fathers kingdom and probably wed to Arya.  I think Samwell ends up taking over his father's kingdom and basically running that whole part of the world as Jon's hand of the king.


Of course, I've probably got this all wrong, but that is the fun.

I think there is not much bitterness in that ending scenario..
Its been well documented that the ending is going to be so unexpected that some people will go mental and not accept it....or so ive heard.

I think Jon dies sacrificing himself while killing the Night king , Arya will probably be the only Stark left. The imp definitely lives and Jaime kills Cersei.
Bran I think will go back in the past in a sort of twist that will keep us guessing before the end credits roll out.
you don't think Jon killing Dany will cause bitterness?

I think Dani will kill Jon.
Dani isn't essential to the story.  Jon is.

Dani can die and it will not break the storytelling.  If Jon died, it would objectively be poor writing since he's the central arc of the whole thing.

Who appeared to be the focus of season 1? I'd say Ned Stark, out to thwart the Lannisters. Then it was mostly a struggle between Robb and the Lannisters, with vital subplots that affected the outcome (Catelyn's love for her daughters that freed Jaime; Robb's tragic decision to marry; the murderous fights among the Lannisters, etc., etc.).

What's been the central focus since the red wedding? You could certainly say it's the rise of Jon. You could also say it's the rise of Dany, or even Cersei triumphing over her many enemies as she continued being vicious but became smarter/more deadly about it (hello, high Sparrow!). Then there are more side plots than we can count.

We do need to know what happens to Jon - that's a good point, recalling how deep and how far back his arc goes. But it just seems too pat, too similar to the traditions of the epic convention that Martin wants to upend, for Jon to sit the throne in triumph.

The one ending I feel reasonably sure we should not get is the one that Varys, Tyrion, and the Onion Knight contemplated from the battlements of Winterfell: Jon and Dany vanquishing the enemies of the realm and living happily ever after. It just can't end that way, unless Martin sold out completely to fan service (likely with HBO twisting his arm). Only question is how dark it's going to be...
Robb is barely in the books.  The show added all of that stuff because the actor was very popular and they wanted the Red Wedding to have a greater effect. 

Reading the books, this is a story about Jon.  Everything that happens sets up for him to be the prophecy.  Every other character (even the major ones) are there to get Jon to where he needs to be.  The only other logical conclusion is Jamie, but he isn't prominent enough in the books for this to be his story.

Haven't read the books, so can't comment on that.

But do you really think he'd write such a traditional story - where the unwanted boy goes through hardship, turns out to be the prince who was promised, and then goes on to save the realm and reign?

I suppose it's possible; maybe the other deaths do enough to create real tension and he still thinks people want the traditional hero's journey for somebody. But I'd consider it disappointing if there wasn't a significant twist.
He absolutely would write a traditional story.  This is a story at its heart about good triumphing over evil.  And everything throughout the books and the show has pointed to Jon being the focal point.  Everything else has all been leading to Jon being where he needs to be and when he needs to be there.
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Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1293 on: April 16, 2019, 12:45:40 PM »

Offline Sophomore

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just throwing this out there for conjecture -- what's the possibility that the living cannot hold/defeat the dead at Winterfell and have to beat a hasty retreat to King's Landing where by episode 5/beginning of 6, the remaining living forces use the better fortified King's Landing to defeat the dead and have the final battle for the Iron Throne?

I don't see it as likely but if Jon were to take out Dany, that would be the best place and time to do it --> when the dead are defeated and he doesn't need the Dothraki or Unsullied to fight that battle any longer.  Also, whoever is destined to kill Cersei would be in the city to do so.

Here's a related mystery: at least twice, characters have had visions of the throne hall in King's Landing - the hall empty, and snow falling in through a hole in the roof.  Dany saw that when she visited the House of the Undying, and Bran saw it when he was in his early three-eyed raven days.

So, what did it mean? Was it just a metaphor, or is something going to punch a hole in the throne hall and empty it out - something like Viseryon?

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1294 on: April 16, 2019, 01:12:41 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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just throwing this out there for conjecture -- what's the possibility that the living cannot hold/defeat the dead at Winterfell and have to beat a hasty retreat to King's Landing where by episode 5/beginning of 6, the remaining living forces use the better fortified King's Landing to defeat the dead and have the final battle for the Iron Throne?

I don't see it as likely but if Jon were to take out Dany, that would be the best place and time to do it --> when the dead are defeated and he doesn't need the Dothraki or Unsullied to fight that battle any longer.  Also, whoever is destined to kill Cersei would be in the city to do so.

Here's a related mystery: at least twice, characters have had visions of the throne hall in King's Landing - the hall empty, and snow falling in through a hole in the roof.  Dany saw that when she visited the House of the Undying, and Bran saw it when he was in his early three-eyed raven days.

So, what did it mean? Was it just a metaphor, or is something going to punch a hole in the throne hall and empty it out - something like Viseryon?

I always liked that because it can be read at least 2 ways - one is that winter, in the form of the Night King, will take/threaten the Iron Throne, the other is that "snow", in the form of Jon Snow, will. And it could even be both in succession!  Don't know how literal the hole in the roof will be but the conflict is coming there I'd say.

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1295 on: April 16, 2019, 01:18:39 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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just throwing this out there for conjecture -- what's the possibility that the living cannot hold/defeat the dead at Winterfell and have to beat a hasty retreat to King's Landing where by episode 5/beginning of 6, the remaining living forces use the better fortified King's Landing to defeat the dead and have the final battle for the Iron Throne?

I don't see it as likely but if Jon were to take out Dany, that would be the best place and time to do it --> when the dead are defeated and he doesn't need the Dothraki or Unsullied to fight that battle any longer.  Also, whoever is destined to kill Cersei would be in the city to do so.

Here's a related mystery: at least twice, characters have had visions of the throne hall in King's Landing - the hall empty, and snow falling in through a hole in the roof.  Dany saw that when she visited the House of the Undying, and Bran saw it when he was in his early three-eyed raven days.

So, what did it mean? Was it just a metaphor, or is something going to punch a hole in the throne hall and empty it out - something like Viseryon?

I always liked that because it can be read at least 2 ways - one is that winter, in the form of the Night King, will take/threaten the Iron Throne, the other is that "snow", in the form of Jon Snow, will. And it could even be both in succession!  Don't know how literal the hole in the roof will be but the conflict is coming there I'd say.


I've seen speculation that the coming Battle of Winterfell against the undead will be a rout, which would make sense given the timing.  There needs to be a major defeat that causes everything to appear lost before the final salvation.

So it would make sense that the battle would ultimately end up at King's Landing.

I also agree with the speculation I've seen that the Night King threat will be resolved before the final episode, and the final episode will involve a last struggle amongst the survivors as to how power will be disposed moving forward.

My hope is that the show actually ends with NOBODY on the iron throne, and the result of the "game of thrones," at long last, is that the game ends, and the realm moves forward with some different path for how the people will be ruled.

But that might be too heavy a lift given they only have 6 episodes.
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Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1296 on: April 16, 2019, 01:20:51 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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just throwing this out there for conjecture -- what's the possibility that the living cannot hold/defeat the dead at Winterfell and have to beat a hasty retreat to King's Landing where by episode 5/beginning of 6, the remaining living forces use the better fortified King's Landing to defeat the dead and have the final battle for the Iron Throne?



Yeah i think this is where things are headed.


My guess is that the battle against the undead at winterfell is episode 3 (which would make it the halfway point) and it's a major defeat that results in multiple key characters dying.  my guess is that's the biggest gut punch moment the show's had since the red wedding.

(wouldn't it be something if dany and her dragons all died?  all hope lost ....)

Episode 4 would be the survivors retreating, and trying to figure out what the deal is with the night king, maybe come up with some new plan for how to defeat him.

That sets up the ultimate battle against the night king coming in episode 5, somewhere near or in kings landing.

Then episode 6 is the resolution of who & what is left after the night king is defeated / turned away.
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Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1297 on: April 16, 2019, 02:12:34 PM »

Offline Big333223

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I say this with very little authority: If there is a "winner" of the Game of Thrones, I think it will be Sansa. I think she has the cleanest ark on the show and isn't the most obvious (Jon Snow is the most obvious). That would probably mean Jon and Dany die.

I'd put a dollar on that.
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Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1298 on: April 16, 2019, 02:14:30 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I say this with very little authority: If there is a "winner" of the Game of Thrones, I think it will be Sansa. I think she has the cleanest ark on the show and isn't the most obvious (Jon Snow is the most obvious). That would probably mean Jon and Dany die.

I'd put a dollar on that.

I would agree that Jon or Dany (or both) ending up on top at the end would run contrary to what the bigger themes of the show have been over the entire course of the series.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1299 on: April 16, 2019, 02:28:34 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I say this with very little authority: If there is a "winner" of the Game of Thrones, I think it will be Sansa. I think she has the cleanest ark on the show and isn't the most obvious (Jon Snow is the most obvious). That would probably mean Jon and Dany die.

I'd put a dollar on that.
They departed so much from the books with her it is unlikely she ends up on top given her storyline in the books.
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Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1300 on: April 16, 2019, 03:15:26 PM »

Offline keevsnick

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I say this with very little authority: If there is a "winner" of the Game of Thrones, I think it will be Sansa. I think she has the cleanest ark on the show and isn't the most obvious (Jon Snow is the most obvious). That would probably mean Jon and Dany die.

I'd put a dollar on that.

I would agree that Jon or Dany (or both) ending up on top at the end would run contrary to what the bigger themes of the show have been over the entire course of the series.

Ya I don't know, to me the story has always been about the restoration if the Targ dynasty. I would guess one of Jon ir Dany ends up on the throne.

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1301 on: April 16, 2019, 03:27:24 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I say this with very little authority: If there is a "winner" of the Game of Thrones, I think it will be Sansa. I think she has the cleanest ark on the show and isn't the most obvious (Jon Snow is the most obvious). That would probably mean Jon and Dany die.

I'd put a dollar on that.

I would agree that Jon or Dany (or both) ending up on top at the end would run contrary to what the bigger themes of the show have been over the entire course of the series.

Which “themes” are you referring to when you say this?  I think most people misunderstand what George RR Martin was actually doing.

If you think the show/book is all about twists and shocking moments that defy expectations, you’re misinterpreting what makes this creative endeavor unique. 

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1302 on: April 16, 2019, 04:10:03 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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just throwing this out there for conjecture -- what's the possibility that the living cannot hold/defeat the dead at Winterfell and have to beat a hasty retreat to King's Landing where by episode 5/beginning of 6, the remaining living forces use the better fortified King's Landing to defeat the dead and have the final battle for the Iron Throne?

I don't see it as likely but if Jon were to take out Dany, that would be the best place and time to do it --> when the dead are defeated and he doesn't need the Dothraki or Unsullied to fight that battle any longer.  Also, whoever is destined to kill Cersei would be in the city to do so.

Here's a related mystery: at least twice, characters have had visions of the throne hall in King's Landing - the hall empty, and snow falling in through a hole in the roof.  Dany saw that when she visited the House of the Undying, and Bran saw it when he was in his early three-eyed raven days.

So, what did it mean? Was it just a metaphor, or is something going to punch a hole in the throne hall and empty it out - something like Viseryon?

I always liked that because it can be read at least 2 ways - one is that winter, in the form of the Night King, will take/threaten the Iron Throne, the other is that "snow", in the form of Jon Snow, will. And it could even be both in succession!  Don't know how literal the hole in the roof will be but the conflict is coming there I'd say.


I've seen speculation that the coming Battle of Winterfell against the undead will be a rout, which would make sense given the timing.  There needs to be a major defeat that causes everything to appear lost before the final salvation.

So it would make sense that the battle would ultimately end up at King's Landing.

I also agree with the speculation I've seen that the Night King threat will be resolved before the final episode, and the final episode will involve a last struggle amongst the survivors as to how power will be disposed moving forward.

My hope is that the show actually ends with NOBODY on the iron throne, and the result of the "game of thrones," at long last, is that the game ends, and the realm moves forward with some different path for how the people will be ruled.

But that might be too heavy a lift given they only have 6 episodes.

I agree with about all of this, especially the desire for another widescale gut punch. Basically Hardhome x10, including much worse luck for the named characters.

Kings' Landing makes sense symbolically and even strategically - the biggest weakness of the army of the dead is that so far they don't go in the water. Night King can fly now but that's about it. So it seems to fit.

I think the big fight in the 2nd-to-last episode with the power struggle in the aftermath is very on-brand for Game of Thrones. Probably with Cersei as the big threat that finally gets taken down. And I do expect there will be no throne at the end (not necessarily no clear ruler/leader though) - too much "break the wheel" talk. The fitting and likely end for the throne is to be melted down by dragonfire, though the symbolism is very different depending on whether Night King/Dany/Jon does it.


Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1303 on: April 16, 2019, 04:14:13 PM »

Offline Big333223

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I say this with very little authority: If there is a "winner" of the Game of Thrones, I think it will be Sansa. I think she has the cleanest ark on the show and isn't the most obvious (Jon Snow is the most obvious). That would probably mean Jon and Dany die.

I'd put a dollar on that.

I would agree that Jon or Dany (or both) ending up on top at the end would run contrary to what the bigger themes of the show have been over the entire course of the series.

Which “themes” are you referring to when you say this?  I think most people misunderstand what George RR Martin was actually doing.

If you think the show/book is all about twists and shocking moments that defy expectations, you’re misinterpreting what makes this creative endeavor unique.

Again, I say this with very little authority as I did not read any of the books and didn't even watch season 2 (I came in on season 3, went back and watched 1 but never did 2), but it seems like a major theme of the show is the subversion of classic fantasy tropes. The "ugly dwarf" is a hero. The handsome prince (Rob Stark) winds up dying. Of course, it all starts with killing off the man we think is our protagonist.

Jon and Dany seem to both be prophesied to be "the chosen one" so killing them off in the end would be in line with what the show has done.

Sansa, who started as a dumb young girl who wanted to be a beautiful princess with no worries, has been dragged through hell and back to gain some real wisdom about the world. I think if she becomes queen, essentially getting what she thought she wanted but at this unthinkable cost, it would work with these ideas.
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Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1304 on: April 16, 2019, 04:28:22 PM »

Offline footey

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I say this with very little authority: If there is a "winner" of the Game of Thrones, I think it will be Sansa. I think she has the cleanest ark on the show and isn't the most obvious (Jon Snow is the most obvious). That would probably mean Jon and Dany die.

I'd put a dollar on that.

I would agree that Jon or Dany (or both) ending up on top at the end would run contrary to what the bigger themes of the show have been over the entire course of the series.

Which “themes” are you referring to when you say this?  I think most people misunderstand what George RR Martin was actually doing.

If you think the show/book is all about twists and shocking moments that defy expectations, you’re misinterpreting what makes this creative endeavor unique.

You are almost as annoyingly arrogant in your views regarding Game of Thrones as you are in your discussions concerning Celtic basketball.