Author Topic: Tatum mvp type season?  (Read 7397 times)

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Re: Tatum mvp type season?
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2022, 11:59:08 AM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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The MVP isn't the best player award.  It about capturing value

I think this is true, but I do think that the value for the award usually comes from one of two camps in most seasons.

It's either: 'best player on a top team' or 'most essential player to a good team' - the difference is subtle, but for the latter you can look at Jokic, Harden/Westbrook or Steve Nash.

I see Tatum in the former camp, not necessarily the latter, so the C's have to have a top-of-the-league record for him to have a meaningful shot at MVP.

I think it pretty much comes down to whomever "the NBA élite" (the higher-up media personalities) deem to be "the top guys." And I think the finalists for MVP are pretty much determined before the season even begins. For this season, the only guys who have a legit shot are Giannis, Jokic, and Doncic. If Tatum has a fantastic year, he'll probably get some votes and then be a legit contender next season, but I think he won't gain any big traction for this season's award unless the Cs end up with the best record and he leads the league in scoring, or something very close to that.
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Re: Tatum mvp type season?
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2022, 12:03:36 PM »

Offline Kernewek

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The MVP isn't the best player award.  It about capturing value

I think this is true, but I do think that the value for the award usually comes from one of two camps in most seasons.

It's either: 'best player on a top team' or 'most essential player to a good team' - the difference is subtle, but for the latter you can look at Jokic, Harden/Westbrook or Steve Nash.

I see Tatum in the former camp, not necessarily the latter, so the C's have to have a top-of-the-league record for him to have a meaningful shot at MVP.

I think it pretty much comes down to whomever "the NBA élite" (the higher-up media personalities) deem to be "the top guys." And I think the finalists for MVP are pretty much determined before the season even begins. For this season, the only guys who have a legit shot are Giannis, Jokic, and Doncic. If Tatum has a fantastic year, he'll probably get some votes and then be a legit contender next season, but I think he won't gain any big traction for this season's award unless the Cs end up with the best record and he leads the league in scoring, or something very close to that.
I think this is tricky for a few reasons - most notably that the news cycle has definitely changed over the last 10 years, let alone the last 20 - but here are some NBA MVP candidates who were not favourites for MVP on opening night of the season that they won the award, to my memory:

Derrick Rose
Russell Westbrook
Jokic
Steve Nash
Dirk Nowitzki
KG
Allen Iverson

I think you can make a case for Curry being unexpected in 2015 as well - but this is a not-insubstantial number of guys who 'stole' the MVP from someone like LeBron, who was a perennial favourite for a long time in the media.
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Re: Tatum mvp type season?
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2022, 01:52:34 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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The MVP isn't the best player award.  It about capturing value

I think this is true, but I do think that the value for the award usually comes from one of two camps in most seasons.

It's either: 'best player on a top team' or 'most essential player to a good team' - the difference is subtle, but for the latter you can look at Jokic, Harden/Westbrook or Steve Nash.

I see Tatum in the former camp, not necessarily the latter, so the C's have to have a top-of-the-league record for him to have a meaningful shot at MVP.

I think it pretty much comes down to whomever "the NBA élite" (the higher-up media personalities) deem to be "the top guys." And I think the finalists for MVP are pretty much determined before the season even begins. For this season, the only guys who have a legit shot are Giannis, Jokic, and Doncic. If Tatum has a fantastic year, he'll probably get some votes and then be a legit contender next season, but I think he won't gain any big traction for this season's award unless the Cs end up with the best record and he leads the league in scoring, or something very close to that.
I think this is tricky for a few reasons - most notably that the news cycle has definitely changed over the last 10 years, let alone the last 20 - but here are some NBA MVP candidates who were not favourites for MVP on opening night of the season that they won the award, to my memory:

Derrick Rose
Russell Westbrook
Jokic
Steve Nash
Dirk Nowitzki
KG
Allen Iverson

I think you can make a case for Curry being unexpected in 2015 as well - but this is a not-insubstantial number of guys who 'stole' the MVP from someone like LeBron, who was a perennial favourite for a long time in the media.
I think a case can be made that a bunch of those guys won the award over Lebron burnout and voters not wanting to give Lebron the award for 10+ straight years because he was clearly the league MVP all those years.

Re: Tatum mvp type season?
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2022, 02:12:57 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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The MVP isn't the best player award.  It about capturing value

I think this is true, but I do think that the value for the award usually comes from one of two camps in most seasons.

It's either: 'best player on a top team' or 'most essential player to a good team' - the difference is subtle, but for the latter you can look at Jokic, Harden/Westbrook or Steve Nash.

I see Tatum in the former camp, not necessarily the latter, so the C's have to have a top-of-the-league record for him to have a meaningful shot at MVP.

I think it pretty much comes down to whomever "the NBA élite" (the higher-up media personalities) deem to be "the top guys." And I think the finalists for MVP are pretty much determined before the season even begins. For this season, the only guys who have a legit shot are Giannis, Jokic, and Doncic. If Tatum has a fantastic year, he'll probably get some votes and then be a legit contender next season, but I think he won't gain any big traction for this season's award unless the Cs end up with the best record and he leads the league in scoring, or something very close to that.
I think this is tricky for a few reasons - most notably that the news cycle has definitely changed over the last 10 years, let alone the last 20 - but here are some NBA MVP candidates who were not favourites for MVP on opening night of the season that they won the award, to my memory:

Derrick Rose
Russell Westbrook
Jokic
Steve Nash
Dirk Nowitzki
KG
Allen Iverson

I think you can make a case for Curry being unexpected in 2015 as well - but this is a not-insubstantial number of guys who 'stole' the MVP from someone like LeBron, who was a perennial favourite for a long time in the media.

I may be wrong, and you may be right. I don't recall what the preseason chatter was back then for the older guys on your list, but several of them were already well on their way to HOF careers, so even though they weren't "the man" like LeBron or Kobe, I couldn't exactly call them "surprise" MVP winners. I feel confident, though, that if a lower-tier star (think pre-Celtics Gordon Hayward) had a surprisingly awesome season—like, suddenly averaging a league-leading 30 a game, after never averaging more than 20 before—he still wouldn't get heavy MVP consideration that season (the season after, maybe). But that's just me.
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"You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."

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Re: Tatum mvp type season?
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2022, 08:38:39 PM »

Offline Big333223

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I've got Tatum #3 behind Luka and Giannis is #1. Early going but Tatum is scoring at an elite level and playing much better defense than many of the other contenders.

As has been said, it's early but it's really nice to have the kind of player who is in this conversation and Tatum is firmly in the conversation.
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Re: Tatum mvp type season?
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2022, 08:44:44 PM »

Offline W8ting2McHale

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The MVP isn't the best player award.  It about capturing value

I think this is true, but I do think that the value for the award usually comes from one of two camps in most seasons.

It's either: 'best player on a top team' or 'most essential player to a good team' - the difference is subtle, but for the latter you can look at Jokic, Harden/Westbrook or Steve Nash.

I see Tatum in the former camp, not necessarily the latter, so the C's have to have a top-of-the-league record for him to have a meaningful shot at MVP.

I think it pretty much comes down to whomever "the NBA élite" (the higher-up media personalities) deem to be "the top guys." And I think the finalists for MVP are pretty much determined before the season even begins. For this season, the only guys who have a legit shot are Giannis, Jokic, and Doncic. If Tatum has a fantastic year, he'll probably get some votes and then be a legit contender next season, but I think he won't gain any big traction for this season's award unless the Cs end up with the best record and he leads the league in scoring, or something very close to that.
I think this is tricky for a few reasons - most notably that the news cycle has definitely changed over the last 10 years, let alone the last 20 - but here are some NBA MVP candidates who were not favourites for MVP on opening night of the season that they won the award, to my memory:

Derrick Rose
Russell Westbrook
Jokic
Steve Nash
Dirk Nowitzki
KG
Allen Iverson

I think you can make a case for Curry being unexpected in 2015 as well - but this is a not-insubstantial number of guys who 'stole' the MVP from someone like LeBron, who was a perennial favourite for a long time in the media.

Based off of Jersey sales, Tatum has been very popular the past few years, and he has National advertising endorsements to boost his appeal too. If it comes down to media recognition he has it, outside of ESPN anyway.

Re: Tatum mvp type season?
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2022, 05:35:28 AM »

Offline Kernewek

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I may be wrong, and you may be right. I don't recall what the preseason chatter was back then for the older guys on your list, but several of them were already well on their way to HOF careers, so even though they weren't "the man" like LeBron or Kobe, I couldn't exactly call them "surprise" MVP winners. I feel confident, though, that if a lower-tier star (think pre-Celtics Gordon Hayward) had a surprisingly awesome season—like, suddenly averaging a league-leading 30 a game, after never averaging more than 20 before—he still wouldn't get heavy MVP consideration that season (the season after, maybe). But that's just me.

Yeah I think you're probably right - maybe your Hayward example is kind of what we saw with Rose over 2010-11 - it went from 'kid has talent, team is kinda bad' to 'wow, he's the cog in this defensive menace' over the course of the season - but Rose certainly had a higher profile to start with from playing in a larger market.

Since that was 'only' 12 years ago (  :-X ) I went back to look at some of the gambling coverage for that season, and here's one set of pre-season odds that's still online (the article is lacking, though). Obviously, oddsmakers want people to bet, so this isn't a 1:1 match for what we're talking about, but it does reflect the general consensus going into the season in some ways.

Quote
Kevin Durant +250
Kobe Bryant +250
LeBron James +450
Dwight Howard +650
Dwyane Wade +800
 Carmelo Anthony +1200
Field +1200
Chris Paul +1500
Dirk Nowitzki +1500
Derrick Rose +1800
 Chris Bosh +3000
Amare Stoudemire +3000
Steve Nash +3300
Pau Gasol +4000
Deron Williams +5000
https://www.nsawins.com/nba/2010-11-nba-mvp-odds-to-win-kobe-and-durant-the-favorites/

Kind of interesting stuff! I still think the C's would have to play absolutely scorched earth basketball for Tatum to get the nod, though.
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Re: Tatum mvp type season?
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2022, 09:12:19 AM »

Offline Redz

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I have a $10 bet on Tatum at +1000.  MVP!  MVP!

He’s playing great.  Just enjoy it.  The accolades will come.
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Re: Tatum mvp type season?
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2022, 12:06:36 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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I may be wrong, and you may be right. I don't recall what the preseason chatter was back then for the older guys on your list, but several of them were already well on their way to HOF careers, so even though they weren't "the man" like LeBron or Kobe, I couldn't exactly call them "surprise" MVP winners. I feel confident, though, that if a lower-tier star (think pre-Celtics Gordon Hayward) had a surprisingly awesome season—like, suddenly averaging a league-leading 30 a game, after never averaging more than 20 before—he still wouldn't get heavy MVP consideration that season (the season after, maybe). But that's just me.

Yeah I think you're probably right - maybe your Hayward example is kind of what we saw with Rose over 2010-11 - it went from 'kid has talent, team is kinda bad' to 'wow, he's the cog in this defensive menace' over the course of the season - but Rose certainly had a higher profile to start with from playing in a larger market.

Since that was 'only' 12 years ago (  :-X ) I went back to look at some of the gambling coverage for that season, and here's one set of pre-season odds that's still online (the article is lacking, though). Obviously, oddsmakers want people to bet, so this isn't a 1:1 match for what we're talking about, but it does reflect the general consensus going into the season in some ways.

Quote
Kevin Durant +250
Kobe Bryant +250
LeBron James +450
Dwight Howard +650
Dwyane Wade +800
 Carmelo Anthony +1200
Field +1200
Chris Paul +1500
Dirk Nowitzki +1500
Derrick Rose +1800
 Chris Bosh +3000
Amare Stoudemire +3000
Steve Nash +3300
Pau Gasol +4000
Deron Williams +5000
https://www.nsawins.com/nba/2010-11-nba-mvp-odds-to-win-kobe-and-durant-the-favorites/

Kind of interesting stuff! I still think the C's would have to play absolutely scorched earth basketball for Tatum to get the nod, though.

I agree. I'm thinking best team record plus Tatum leads the league in scoring. Or something very close to that.

And thanks for the additional info!
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— C.S. Lewis

Re: Tatum mvp type season?
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2022, 01:08:28 PM »

Offline footey

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If voting today, I think Tatum would and should come in 2nd behind Giannis.

Re: Tatum mvp type season?
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2022, 01:23:23 PM »

Offline keevsnick

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Is he playing at an MVP level? Yes. Will he win it? Not if Luka keeps averaging 35 a game with a 61% TS and a nearly 40 usage.

His play making actually seems a little down to me, but that might just be because he been so efficient that passing is often the wrong play for him. The biggest difference from last year is he's shooting way more FT's, which is huge, but we'll also see if it keeps up. He's gone through streches where he shoots a lot before only to fall off.

Two things seem unsustainable to me. He's shooting 80% at the rim, he was 74% last year. 80% is like Giannis levels of finishing (granted, a much lower frequency but still). And 53% from long 2, where he's never been better than 42%. Both of those numbers will come down. But even if they do that might move him from like a 65% TS to a 61% or something like that, still elite at his usage. Basically if his FTr keeps up he'll b in the conversation and it would help alot if the c's finish with the 1 or 2 seed.

Re: Tatum mvp type season?
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2022, 11:33:03 AM »

Offline TatumsLebronsDad

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NBA.com’s updated MVP Ladder:

1. Giannis Antetokounmpo
2. Luka Doncic
3. Jayson Tatum
4. Donovan Mitchell
5. Ja Morant
6. Devin Booker
7. Nikola Jokic
8. Kevin Durant
9. Damian Lillard
10. Stephen Curry

Re: Tatum mvp type season?
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2022, 11:50:59 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Is he playing at an MVP level? Yes. Will he win it? Not if Luka keeps averaging 35 a game with a 61% TS and a nearly 40 usage.

His play making actually seems a little down to me, but that might just be because he been so efficient that passing is often the wrong play for him. The biggest difference from last year is he's shooting way more FT's, which is huge, but we'll also see if it keeps up. He's gone through streches where he shoots a lot before only to fall off.

Two things seem unsustainable to me. He's shooting 80% at the rim, he was 74% last year. 80% is like Giannis levels of finishing (granted, a much lower frequency but still). And 53% from long 2, where he's never been better than 42%. Both of those numbers will come down. But even if they do that might move him from like a 65% TS to a 61% or something like that, still elite at his usage. Basically if his FTr keeps up he'll b in the conversation and it would help alot if the c's finish with the 1 or 2 seed.
I'm not sure MVP voters look into the detail of stats, especially advanced stats, that you are here. I think they look generally at counting stats, team wins, clutch performances, the concept of importance to the team and how much media attention a player is getting.

A lot of players during MJ and Lebron's primes got tons of media attention for teams with outstanding seasons, but generally, MJ and Lebron had all the stats, especially advanced stats and were easily the best players in the league, but didn't get the wins.

If Boston wins the East with 57-60 wins, Tatum goes for 30/8/5, he has some huge national TV wins and continues to get lots of attention in the media, that's how he will win.

Re: Tatum mvp type season?
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2022, 11:51:49 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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NBA.com’s updated MVP Ladder:

1. Giannis Antetokounmpo
2. Luka Doncic
3. Jayson Tatum
4. Donovan Mitchell
5. Ja Morant
6. Devin Booker
7. Nikola Jokic
8. Kevin Durant
9. Damian Lillard
10. Stephen Curry

Pretty reasonable overall.  My one quibble is I don't see Donovan Mitchell as that high.  I would have Jokic, Lillard, and Curry all above him.  I can see him in the discussion, but not quite that high.  Maybe something more like this:

1. Giannis Antetokounmpo
2.  Luka Doncic
3.  Jayson Tatum
4.  Nikola Jokic
5.  Ja Morant
6.  Damian Lillard
7.  Stephen Curry
8.  Kevin Durant
9.  Donovan Mitchell
10. Devin Booker

For the record, I prefer Tatum to Doncic as the star to build around but I think Doncic would get more votes if the vote was held today.

Re: Tatum mvp type season?
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2022, 11:57:37 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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NBA.com’s updated MVP Ladder:

1. Giannis Antetokounmpo
2. Luka Doncic
3. Jayson Tatum
4. Donovan Mitchell
5. Ja Morant
6. Devin Booker
7. Nikola Jokic
8. Kevin Durant
9. Damian Lillard
10. Stephen Curry

Pretty reasonable overall.  My one quibble is I don't see Donovan Mitchell as that high.  I would have Jokic, Lillard, and Curry all above him.  I can see him in the discussion, but not quite that high.  Maybe something more like this:

1. Giannis Antetokounmpo
2.  Luka Doncic
3.  Jayson Tatum
4.  Nikola Jokic
5.  Ja Morant
6.  Damian Lillard
7.  Stephen Curry
8.  Kevin Durant
9.  Donovan Mitchell
10. Devin Booker

For the record, I prefer Tatum to Doncic as the star to build around but I think Doncic would get more votes if the vote was held today.
Which is weird because the Mavs are hovering around .500. I get it, Doncic is the media darling and his game is next level, but if his team ends up in the 46-48 win area, I don't see how he gets MVP.