Author Topic: Do Celtics Fans Feel Grateful?  (Read 3827 times)

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Re: Do Celtics Fans Feel Grateful?
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2024, 05:33:17 PM »

Online scaryjerry

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I think this is a good team, but they aren't great.
This is a great team. Feels like 2008 all over again.

I wouldn't go quite that far. I think this Celtics team could be great if they cleaned up their finishing down the stretch of games. They're right on the doorstep of greatness.

This Celtics team is 4-4 in games decided by 3 points or less and 2-3 in overtime. So they're essentially 6-7 in close games. That's not great.

This team has the chance to be as good/better all time as that 2008 team if they lose only like 5 games the rest of the season and dominate the playoffs and win the title…tall task

Re: Do Celtics Fans Feel Grateful?
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2024, 06:07:10 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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No more losses , 

Dish out a thrashing every night.

Re: Do Celtics Fans Feel Grateful?
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2024, 06:16:41 PM »

Online Roy H.

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I think the fans can be grateful that we get to watch a competitive team year in and year out, while still being disappointed if the team fails.  That's particularly true if we lose to an inferior team.


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Re: Do Celtics Fans Feel Grateful?
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2024, 09:03:58 PM »

Offline green_bballers13

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No more losses , 

Dish out a thrashing every night.

Haha yes. Dominate everything. Anything less is unacceptable.

Re: Do Celtics Fans Feel Grateful?
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2024, 09:22:56 PM »

Offline jambr380

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I’ll feel grateful if we win a Title and will be able to ride that high for a decade if we are unable to win another.

I’m still grateful for the 2018 Sox and Patriots and haven’t complained even a little bit even though things have gone about as poorly as possible since then. It all comes down to championships, period. And I am easy to please after we win.

We have been competitive for a bunch of years, but we need to finish it off at some point with this generation or I’ll just have ‘what if’ feelings forever

Re: Do Celtics Fans Feel Grateful?
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2024, 03:24:07 AM »

Offline JSD

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I think this is a good team, but they aren't great.
This is a great team. Feels like 2008 all over again.

I wouldn't go quite that far. I think this Celtics team could be great if they cleaned up their finishing down the stretch of games. They're right on the doorstep of greatness.

This Celtics team is 4-4 in games decided by 3 points or less and 2-3 in overtime. So they're essentially 6-7 in close games. That's not great.

No, they're 6-6 in those games, one of those OT losses was also a 3 point game.

And then 2-1 in games decided by 4 points. 1-0 in games decided by 5 (excluding OT). 2-0 in games decided by 6 (excluding OT). The sample sizes are so small that it just turns into cherry picking, and the difference between a 3 point game and a 6 point game is making one last second 3, so the final score can be deceiving. I much prefer the metrics where it's games that were within X points in the last couple of minutes.

Where can I obtain those metrics? I agree that the sample size is small, and I'm optimistic that they can reach the next level. I would just like to see their killer instinct improve in these close games. If they achieve that, forget about 18, we could be discussing a dynasty.

All I was saying is that I don't believe they are quite there yet. My confidence in them is not the same as when I was watching the 2008 team. That was the topic
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Re: Do Celtics Fans Feel Grateful?
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2024, 04:23:03 AM »

Offline Kernewek

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I think this is a good team, but they aren't great.
This is a great team. Feels like 2008 all over again.

I wouldn't go quite that far. I think this Celtics team could be great if they cleaned up their finishing down the stretch of games. They're right on the doorstep of greatness.

This Celtics team is 4-4 in games decided by 3 points or less and 2-3 in overtime. So they're essentially 6-7 in close games. That's not great.

This is hard to assign any weight without context. How does this compare to, say, the 2008 team or 2011 squad under similar circumstances? Or, to be more current, even any other title contending team around the league this year?

The 2008 Celtics won 2 out of 3 overtime games and were 8-6 in games decided by 3 points or less.

The 2023 Nuggets were 3-0 in overtime games last season and 7-5 in games decided by 3 points.

Regarding the 2024 Celtics, I believe they are on the verge of greatness but have not yet reached it. I am hopeful to see their improvement in winning close games down the stretch to instill the same level of confidence I had while watching the 2008 Celtics.
Thanks for that. I think you're right, although it's worth keeping in mind the Celtics are having one of the best offensive seasons of all time (the current leader is the last season's Kings, though, so it's not related to postseason success).

I tend to agree with BitterJim's analysis though - it's really hard to get meaningful data from such a small sample. You can find most of those stats from the NBA advanced website and/or BBR if you have the time to mess with google sheets or excel.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2024, 04:36:39 AM by Kernewek »
Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time.

But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.

Re: Do Celtics Fans Feel Grateful?
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2024, 05:28:14 AM »

Online ozgod

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The Celtics are 40-12. They are 4 games up on the second best team in the NBA. What would make some fans happy? 15 game lead? 20 game lead?

I bet some will say that the regular season doesn't matter- it's all about winning a championship. Is that the standard? Be miserable until they win a championship (despite a dominant regular season), then be happy for 5 minutes, then expect another championship?

I think this is a good team, but they aren't great. They have things to work on. 40-12 is a great record. I feel that we are lucky to have the opportunity to root for this team.

I don't think it's so much being ungrateful but more so that continued success and competitiveness has caused the fanbase to have really high expectations. If you think about the last decade supporting this team:

Code: [Select]
Year Record East Playoff Finish Coach Key Players
2013-14 25-57 12th No Playoffs Brad Stevens Green, Rondo, Bradley, Crawford, Bass
2014-15 40-42 7th 1st Rd vs. CLE Brad Stevens IT, Green, Bradley, Crowder, Smart
2015-16 48-34 5th 1st Rd vs. ATL Brad Stevens IT, Bradley, Crowder, Smart, Turner
2016-17 53-29 1st ECF v. CLE Brad Stevens IT, Bradley, Horford, Smart, Crowder (Brown)
2017-18 55-27 2nd ECF v. CLE Brad Stevens Cryrie, Brown, Tatum, Horford, Smart, Rozier (Hayward)
2018-19 49-33 4th 2nd Rd vs. MIL Brad Stevens Cryrie, Brown, Tatum, Horford, Hayward, Smart
2019-20 48-24 3rd ECF v. MIA Brad Stevens Tatum, Brown, Kemba, Hayward, Smart
2020-21 36-36 7th 1st Rd vs BKN Brad Stevens Tatum, Brown, Smart, Kemba, Timelord
2021-22 51-31 2nd Finals vs GSW Ime Udoka Tatum, Brown, Schroder, Smart, Horford, White, Timelord
2022-23 57-25 2nd ECF v. MIA Joe Mazzulla Tatum, Brown, Smart, Horford, Brogdon, White, Timelord
2023-24 40-12* 1st* TBD Joe Mazzulla Tatum, Brown, KP, White, Jrue, Horford

I suspect if you were a fan of another team you would be thinking, wow this team is really good, I wish my team had that level of consistency. Making playoffs 9 years in a row since 2014-15, made the ECF 5 times, with basically 4 different teams, made the finals once, that's a level of performance to be proud of. Conversely, if you were a Celtics fan, you're probably thinking, man we made the playoffs 9 times, made the ECF 5 times, made the finals once...and NO CHAMPIONSHIP?? This team sucks!!! If they can't win it with all this opportunity they will never win it!!

Because we are fans of the team we are their harshest critics, because we want a championship and they haven't delivered. Our expectations have increased over the years of success. First we were happy that we had a winning season. Then we want a 50 game season. Then we want an ECF appearance. Then we want a Finals appearance. Now we want a championship. At some point we feel like we're entitled to a championship because we've missed out so often, irrespective of the success we've had. Also we're the Celtics, we've the elites of this league, championships are our destiny, baby  :laugh:

And now wins aren't good enough. They have to be thrashings. Because we feel our team is so good, that they should thrash everyone so we can sit back and enjoy the carnage without having to reach for our blood pressure pills. Especially if it's a perceived "inferior" team. Those teams we should beat by a hundred  :police:

So sometimes that blinds you from seeing that over the years Wyc and Co have delivered a pretty successful team, that has been able to experience success through different coaches, players and GMs. But if your bar is a championship, none of that will matter. Because for all that success they haven't delivered it. Second is only first among the losers, as Dale Earnhardt said. Winning isn't everything it's the only thing, said Vince Lombardi.  And it's very possible, maybe even probable, that this team might not be the all conquering behemoth they want it to be. So when it loses, the wrist slitting starts. But that might have just been because the team isn't as good as we make it out to be, it's not perfect, and so it will make mistakes and yes, it can certainly lose on any given night if the other team catches fire.

But it doesn't need to win every game...it just needs to get to the playoffs, win 4 out of 7 of 4 series. 16 games. I think this team is definitely capable of doing that at least, along with a few other teams. For that I am grateful  :laugh:

« Last Edit: February 12, 2024, 05:35:29 AM by ozgod »
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D

Re: Do Celtics Fans Feel Grateful?
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2024, 08:33:17 AM »

Offline greg683x

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The Celtics are 40-12. They are 4 games up on the second best team in the NBA. What would make some fans happy? 15 game lead? 20 game lead?

I bet some will say that the regular season doesn't matter- it's all about winning a championship. Is that the standard? Be miserable until they win a championship (despite a dominant regular season), then be happy for 5 minutes, then expect another championship?

I think this is a good team, but they aren't great. They have things to work on. 40-12 is a great record. I feel that we are lucky to have the opportunity to root for this team.

Miserable is a harsh word to use, unsatisfied I think is more applicable.

This teams been hanging around the conference finals for what seems like forever now, with a finals appearance.  I don’t think being a little impatient about wanting the next step forward is completely unreasonable. 
Greg

Re: Do Celtics Fans Feel Grateful?
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2024, 09:17:44 AM »

Offline Kernewek

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The Celtics are 40-12. They are 4 games up on the second best team in the NBA. What would make some fans happy? 15 game lead? 20 game lead?

I bet some will say that the regular season doesn't matter- it's all about winning a championship. Is that the standard? Be miserable until they win a championship (despite a dominant regular season), then be happy for 5 minutes, then expect another championship?

I think this is a good team, but they aren't great. They have things to work on. 40-12 is a great record. I feel that we are lucky to have the opportunity to root for this team.

Miserable is a harsh word to use, unsatisfied I think is more applicable.

This teams been hanging around the conference finals for what seems like forever now, with a finals appearance.  I don’t think being a little impatient about wanting the next step forward is completely unreasonable.
I also think the backdrop of Boston sports success over the last 20 years doesn't help. If you're a regional fan (i.e. root for Boston across the big four US sports), then you're very accustomed to winning.
Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time.

But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.

Re: Do Celtics Fans Feel Grateful?
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2024, 10:11:40 AM »

Offline dannyboy35

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  I could care less if the other Boston sports teams win. I only care about the Celtics. I’m grateful guys like Jaylen want to be here when half the city wants him traded . Ridiculous.

Re: Do Celtics Fans Feel Grateful?
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2024, 02:39:39 PM »

Offline keevsnick

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I am.

Look, I get that this particular C's team hasn't won a title, but imo there's more to life as a sports fan than just titles. There are 30 NBA teams, if your only measure of success is "winning it all" then you'll end up miserable most years, not a fun way to live.

This C's team in the Tatum/Brown era has given us deep playoff runs almost every year. They've been in the conversation every year. They win, a lot! Thats fun as a fan. I've been to a few games, they are a blast (tho too expensive). The players seem like generally good guys, who are easy to root for. Brown/Tatum have now been together long enough that they are now starting to become part of Celtcis history, which is its own kind of fun.

My ONLY complaint Celtics related is more about the coverage then the team. A certain segment of fans are just soooo negative. Every loss means the team are frauds. Every win wasn't a "big enough" win. Every missed shot means they need to change how they play. Not every loss needs to be an indictment of player character. Tatum/Brown aren't "weak" becasue they've never won a title. And, for the love of god, we don't need to constantly tear one guy down just to build others up. I can like Tatum, like Brown, like Kp, like White. I don't need to chose a favorite. I don't need everyone else to suck just to make Tatum or Brown better by comparison.

In short, I like the Celtics. Celtics fans, sometimes less so. The people of this forum excluded of course.

Re: Do Celtics Fans Feel Grateful?
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2024, 04:20:14 PM »

Offline Kernewek

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I am.

Look, I get that this particular C's team hasn't won a title, but imo there's more to life as a sports fan than just titles. There are 30 NBA teams, if your only measure of success is "winning it all" then you'll end up miserable most years, not a fun way to live.

This C's team in the Tatum/Brown era has given us deep playoff runs almost every year. They've been in the conversation every year. They win, a lot! Thats fun as a fan. I've been to a few games, they are a blast (tho too expensive). The players seem like generally good guys, who are easy to root for. Brown/Tatum have now been together long enough that they are now starting to become part of Celtcis history, which is its own kind of fun.

My ONLY complaint Celtics related is more about the coverage then the team. A certain segment of fans are just soooo negative. Every loss means the team are frauds. Every win wasn't a "big enough" win. Every missed shot means they need to change how they play. Not every loss needs to be an indictment of player character. Tatum/Brown aren't "weak" becasue they've never won a title. And, for the love of god, we don't need to constantly tear one guy down just to build others up. I can like Tatum, like Brown, like Kp, like White. I don't need to chose a favorite. I don't need everyone else to suck just to make Tatum or Brown better by comparison.

In short, I like the Celtics. Celtics fans, sometimes less so. The people of this forum excluded of course.
This is a good post, but I think the fanbase is less irritating than certain members of the media. 'Old school' sports coverage has always been pretty patchy, especially on talk radio, but the convergence with a massive decrease in the number of people who can make a living doing it has caused a very swift race to the bottom.

It sets the tone for the discourse, and its equal measures pessimistic, patronising, and (dare I say) patriarchal - as in, centred around tired tough guy themes of male authority figures.
Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time.

But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.

Re: Do Celtics Fans Feel Grateful?
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2024, 08:14:58 PM »

Online Moranis

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I just wish the owner wasn't so cheap and actually acted like a fan where money was no object. They did better this off season and at the deadline this year, but last year, I do think we would have won the title if the team didn't let a whole bunch of assets expire without use (the TPE's, not trading 1st's, etc.). The title was within range, but they cheaped out and didn't get the depth the team needed.  Again they've done a bit better this year, but there were still moves they could have made (like using the TPE) that they didn't.  Stop being cheap and put all the chips on the table.  Boston needs those chips because we don't have one of those special guys that typically lead teams to a title.  Every little bit can help.
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Re: Do Celtics Fans Feel Grateful?
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2024, 08:27:47 PM »

Offline liam

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I just wish the owner wasn't so cheap and actually acted like a fan where money was no object. They did better this off season and at the deadline this year, but last year, I do think we would have won the title if the team didn't let a whole bunch of assets expire without use (the TPE's, not trading 1st's, etc.). The title was within range, but they cheaped out and didn't get the depth the team needed.  Again they've done a bit better this year, but there were still moves they could have made (like using the TPE) that they didn't.  Stop being cheap and put all the chips on the table.  Boston needs those chips because we don't have one of those special guys that typically lead teams to a title.  Every little bit can help.

So not grateful...