Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching

[green_bballers13]

In 2025, to say that Ime has done more for the Celtics franchise than Joe (with less) is ignoring any of the negative effects that Ime had on this franchise. It would be like reading the left half of the newspaper and ignoring the right.

One last time:  quit mischaracterizing people's arguments.

Huh? I thought you said that. Can you please clarify- did Ime not do more with less in Boston?

[Roy H.]

In 2025, to say that Ime has done more for the Celtics franchise than Joe (with less) is ignoring any of the negative effects that Ime had on this franchise. It would be like reading the left half of the newspaper and ignoring the right.

One last time:  quit mischaracterizing people's arguments.

Huh? I thought you said that. Can you please clarify- did Ime not do more with less in Boston?

This is getting silly. What fanbase prefers the coach that loses the championship vs winning the championship? The same guy that lost the championship was being a creep with a younger woman at work, putting his team's future chances of a championship at risk.

What is the likable trait that I'm missing?

Look at the complete picture.

Last year of Brad:  .500 team, 1st round playoff loss
Only year of Ime:  No personnel changes; Finals appearance; dominant run from January through April
First year of Joe:  Add 6MOY; Net Rtg decreases from prior year; lose in ECF to #8 seed
Second year of Joe:  Add Porzingis, Jrue, Charles Lee, Sam Cassell, JVG; 64 wins, cruise to championship
Third year of Joe:  No personnel changes; disappointing regular season; playoffs TBD

All you can really say is that Ime's team performed better than Joe's team performed in their first seasons.  The Celts went further with a lesser team.  Those are facts.  It's also true that Ime had more time to prepare.  Ime was hired on June 23, 2021.  Joe took over around September 22, 2022.  Ime built his own staff; Joe inherited his assistant coaches.  Those are also facts.

Anything after their first year is an extrapolation.  Joe has gone on to tremendous success while being provided with superb personnel and a first class coaching staff; Ime has the Rockets playing over their heads.

It's fair for fans to have an opinion that Ime is better, because he's done more with less.  It's fair for fans to have an opinion that Joe is better, because he won a title.

What's probably unfair is the strawman arguments that led people (you) to resurrect this thread and to continually post in it, claiming imaginary grievances.

In their respective first years, Ime did more here (reaching the Finals after taking over a .500 team) than Joe did (falling short in the ECF) with less (no Brogdon, Derrick White was not integrated, Timelord missed 7 playoff games under Ime versus zero with Joe, etc.) 

[green_bballers13]

I apologize for mischaracterizing your point. There was no ill intent.

I guess my question is: why can?t we talk about Joe?s other years? Joe?s first year was brutal because of Ime?s fallout. Do you think this is worth considering?

[Roy H.]

I apologize for mischaracterizing your point. There was no ill intent.

I guess my question is: why can?t we talk about Joe?s other years? Joe?s first year was brutal because of Ime?s fallout. Do you think this is worth considering?

If you read my post you'd know the answer to that.

[green_bballers13]

I just re-read it. I didn?t see you address harassment of a young woman. I think that is reflective of leadership and is very relevant. Sure, there are legal liabilities, but I?m pretty sure the front office was grossed out by Ime?s judgment.

I?m sorry if you addressed this and I didn?t see it. Happy Valentines Day everyone xoxo

[Vermont Green]

I guess I am still not clear what the debate is here.  Before Title (BT), there was a prevalent narrative that Mazzulla was a bad coach and was holding the team back, that the team would never win a title with Mazzulla.  Since that argument can no longer be made, except in the form that the team won the title in spite of Mazzulla, I guess now the goalposts have been moved and the argument is that Mazzulla isn't as good a coach as Udoka?  Or are we still clinging to the idea that Mazzulla is a bad coach and the team won in spite of him?

And if the only debate is whether Mazzulla or Udoka is a better coach, why does that matter?  It seems like the people who were pushing the "Mazzulla can't coach" narrative are shifting to "yeah but Udoka is a better coach than Mazzulla".  Whether Mazzulla or Udoka is a better coach is going to be a very hard debate to settle.  We know that Mazzulla is a good enough coach to take a very talented team to a title.  We know that Udoka was able to take a still very good team to the finals but lost to a more seasoned and experienced team.  Both are indications of good coaching.

People like to say that Spoelstra "coached circles around Mazzulla" in 2022-23 but no one says that Kerr coach circles around Udoka in 2021-22.  MIA shot 43.4% from 3 that series.  They were 34.8% in the regular season.  Some individual players were way above their career averages.  Did Mazzulla coach circles around Kidd in the finals in 2023-24?  Who did Udoka coach circles around in his playoff run?

So my hot take is that I believe Mazzulla is a good enough coach to coach a talented team to a title (I hope no one debates me on that).  Winning 2 in a row is much harder than winning just one, for a lot of reasons.  So if we don't win 2 in a row, is that going to bring out the "see, Mazzulla is a bad coach (or not good enough coach)" narrative from the doubters?  Or is it going to be "if Udoka was the coach, we would have won 2 in a row"?  I suppose it is inevitable.

[Roy H.]

So if we don't win 2 in a row, is that going to bring out the "see, Mazzulla is a bad coach (or not good enough coach)" narrative from the doubters?  Or is it going to be "if Udoka was the coach, we would have won 2 in a row"?  I suppose it is inevitable.

First, why this thread keeps getting bumped is that trolls keep bumping it.  Simple as that.  The trolls are just Pro Joe, but the goal is the same.

To answer your question, if we wall short this season, it will depend on context.  Do we lose to OKC in the Finals?  Do we play well but just get outplayed?  Or, do we look lazy and unfocused while losing to an inferior opponent?

I don't think that Joe will ever be a particularly good tactician, especially in terms of in-game adjustments.  But, last season he was excellent at keeping the team motivated and focused. 

This season has been a mixed bag in terms of that motivation and focus, but it doesn't really matter a whole lot at this stage.  Nobody cares about regular season records.  If the team is sharp and "flips the switch" in the playoffs, then there's no reason to get on Joe's case.  And, if the team comes out flat, blows multiple big leads in the 4th quarter, etc., then Joe deserves his share of criticism for not having the team prepared.

[Goldstar88]

So if we don't win 2 in a row, is that going to bring out the "see, Mazzulla is a bad coach (or not good enough coach)" narrative from the doubters?  Or is it going to be "if Udoka was the coach, we would have won 2 in a row"?  I suppose it is inevitable.

First, why this thread keeps getting bumped is that trolls keep bumping it.  Simple as that.  The trolls are just Pro Joe, but the goal is the same.

To answer your question, if we wall short this season, it will depend on context.  Do we lose to OKC in the Finals?  Do we play well but just get outplayed?  Or, do we look lazy and unfocused while losing to an inferior opponent?

I don't think that Joe will ever be a particularly good tactician, especially in terms of in-game adjustments.  But, last season he was excellent at keeping the team motivated and focused. 

This season has been a mixed bag in terms of that motivation and focus, but it doesn't really matter a whole lot at this stage.  Nobody cares about regular season records.  If the team is sharp and "flips the switch" in the playoffs, then there's no reason to get on Joe's case.  And, if the team comes out flat, blows multiple big leads in the 4th quarter, etc., then Joe deserves his share of criticism for not having the team prepared.

This is exactly how I felt about Ime in the postseason. They were very fortunate to get past Miami and the luck ran out in the Finals. He wasn?t able to adjust at all against GS.

[mobilija]

I think people are forgetting how bad Ime?s offense was/is. You may hate the heavy 3 point attack of Joe but it?s waaaaaay better than the stand around and watch iso malaise of Ime. For superior in terms of effect and watchability.

 I do remember Ime having great ATO plays however w a high success rate. I think Joe gets a bad rap for his ATO plays however I dont think he?s been as successful as Ime with them.

[tenn_smoothie]

I think people are forgetting how bad Ime?s offense was/is. You may hate the heavy 3 point attack of Joe but it?s waaaaaay better than the stand around and watch iso malaise of Ime. For superior in terms of effect and watchability.

 I do remember Ime having great ATO plays however w a high success rate. I think Joe gets a bad rap for his ATO plays however I dont think he?s been as successful as Ime with them.

Right on target, though Joe's 3-point scheme taken to this season's extreme is about as bad as Ime's stand around and watch iso offense.
I don't watch the rest of the league much. Has Ime's offensive scheme improved any in Houston. Is there more movement and creativity ?

[Phantom255x]

I think people are forgetting how bad Ime?s offense was/is. You may hate the heavy 3 point attack of Joe but it?s waaaaaay better than the stand around and watch iso malaise of Ime. For superior in terms of effect and watchability.

 I do remember Ime having great ATO plays however w a high success rate. I think Joe gets a bad rap for his ATO plays however I dont think he?s been as successful as Ime with them.

Right on target, though Joe's 3-point scheme taken to this season's extreme is about as bad as Ime's stand around and watch iso offense.
I don't watch the rest of the league much. Has Ime's offensive scheme improved any in Houston. Is there more movement and creativity ?

Not really. Tbh Houston has been losing a handful of games lately because they don't really have a "go-to scorer" in the 4th quarter like Minny has Ant or OKC has SGA. Who is that guy really for Houston? Idk if that's an Ime issue but while their defense is pretty good, sometimes their offense isn't scoring enough to win games. They did have an awesome win against MIN just yesterday but against Golden State right before the break they couldn't even crack 100.

[droopdog7]

In 2025, to say that Ime has done more for the Celtics franchise than Joe (with less) is ignoring any of the negative effects that Ime had on this franchise. It would be like reading the left half of the newspaper and ignoring the right.

One last time:  quit mischaracterizing people's arguments.

Huh? I thought you said that. Can you please clarify- did Ime not do more with less in Boston?

This is getting silly. What fanbase prefers the coach that loses the championship vs winning the championship? The same guy that lost the championship was being a creep with a younger woman at work, putting his team's future chances of a championship at risk.

What is the likable trait that I'm missing?

Look at the complete picture.

Last year of Brad:  .500 team, 1st round playoff loss
Only year of Ime:  No personnel changes; Finals appearance; dominant run from January through April
First year of Joe:  Add 6MOY; Net Rtg decreases from prior year; lose in ECF to #8 seed
Second year of Joe:  Add Porzingis, Jrue, Charles Lee, Sam Cassell, JVG; 64 wins, cruise to championship
Third year of Joe:  No personnel changes; disappointing regular season; playoffs TBD

All you can really say is that Ime's team performed better than Joe's team performed in their first seasons.  The Celts went further with a lesser team.  Those are facts.  It's also true that Ime had more time to prepare.  Ime was hired on June 23, 2021.  Joe took over around September 22, 2022.  Ime built his own staff; Joe inherited his assistant coaches.  Those are also facts.

Anything after their first year is an extrapolation.  Joe has gone on to tremendous success while being provided with superb personnel and a first class coaching staff; Ime has the Rockets playing over their heads.

It's fair for fans to have an opinion that Ime is better, because he's done more with less.  It's fair for fans to have an opinion that Joe is better, because he won a title.

What's probably unfair is the strawman arguments that led people (you) to resurrect this thread and to continually post in it, claiming imaginary grievances.

In their respective first years, Ime did more here (reaching the Finals after taking over a .500 team) than Joe did (falling short in the ECF) with less (no Brogdon, Derrick White was not integrated, Timelord missed 7 playoff games under Ime versus zero with Joe, etc.)

And in their respective second year, Joe won a title and ime didn?t win a game.

What are we talking about here?!?

[jpotter33]

Add another notch to Joe's impressive "failure to adjust" resume. Just awful, awful rotation decision-making by him tonight. Continuing to play Hauser when he was just a walking bucket for Cleveland is absolutely inexcusable, let alone continuing to go to Kornet who was similarly awful.

[Phantom255x]

Add another notch to Joe's impressive "failure to adjust" resume. Just awful, awful rotation decision-making by him tonight. Continuing to play Hauser when he was just a walking bucket for Cleveland is absolutely inexcusable, let alone continuing to go to Kornet who was similarly awful.

Yeah I can't defend him tonight. Hauser playing 38 minutes and just getting predictably torched possession after possession by Mitchell. Meanwhile we have Craig on the bench, and even PP was barely used in the 4th. WHY??

I said it in the GDT but I have an eerie feeling this is like Muscala in 2022. We traded for him. He had 1-2 good games. But then for some odd reason the team never played him again even during times where things were rocky and they could have tried him. Craig is just glued to the bench since the Spurs game, idk why (and btw, 2022 was Ime NOT Joe)

[SparzWizard]

Justified firing. Unacceptable loss and this goes on Joe. So you see Mitchell exposing Hauser and what do you do? Continue to leave Hauser on Mitchell.