Author Topic: I have Tatum 2nd on the best players 25 and under  (Read 7916 times)

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Re: I have Tatum 2nd on the best players 25 and under
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2020, 09:22:27 PM »

Offline smokeablount

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Posted this lineup before but I'm adding my 6th man before he turns 26 in a few days:


F - Greek Freak
F - Tatum
F - Zion
G - Jaylen
G- Luka
6th Man - Smart (until March 6, at least)

Find me another lineup that beats this one 25 and under.

C - Jokic
F - Greek Freak
F - Tatum
G - Luka
G - Simmons
6th Man - Brown

I considered Morant and Mitchel for the second guard. I chose Simmons for D/Switchability.
I think any 5 out of these 6 could play together, choosing Brown had a lot to do with this.

I like the players in this starting but I'm going unconventional and saying that Simmons and Giannis won't co-exist well, and Jokic needs to be higher usage than he would be in that lineup.  I think Giannis, Luka and Tatum as the top 3 under 25 guys are the engines and they can also co-exist. 

I'd think about putting KAT and Brown in there as KAT can score on and off ball at all levels including high efficiency and volume from 3, and has some defensive studs here as well as a real team in place.  I know Jokic is better, but hear me out.  Then I'd start Jaylen because he's proving on the Celtics now that he can excel as a lower usage 2 way stud who can spot up and make good offensive decisions quickly.

Luka
Jaylen
Tatum
Giannis
KAT

Simmons
Mitchell
Ingram
Zion / Bam
Jokic

I think those 2 units would mesh well together, with Simmons and Jokic as the engines of the 2nd unit while Mitchell & Zion (if there) provide scoring and athleticism while Ingram & Bam (if there) are quite versatile.

I'm leaving out Embiid and Siakam because they won't qualify in a month or two.
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Re: I have Tatum 2nd on the best players 25 and under
« Reply #31 on: February 27, 2020, 01:19:51 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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The fact that Minn has been better without KAT than with him this year speaks volumes. They've lost 18 of their last 19 when he starts. That such a talented guy can't even lift his team anywhere near playoff contention doesn't speak to him being anything other than a guy who puts up hollow, meaningless stats. I wouldn't want him on my team.

Tatum would be high on any such list. It may not be reasonable to put him ahead of an established pro like Jokic, but all season long, even before he started pouring it on over the last month, he's the guy the team looks to, especially if Kemba's out. Everyone defers to him offensively. Even Kemba has said it's JT's team. For a 21 year old to be regarded that way by 2 veteran all-star players speaks volumes about how good he is. No way he should be 2nd on such a list, but if I made one he'd probably be 5th or so. Certainly not behind a tissue-soft loser like KAT, and not behind Simmons, perhaps the only guard in the league who completely lacks the most important skill in the game.

This is my thinking also

Re: I have Tatum 2nd on the best players 25 and under
« Reply #32 on: February 27, 2020, 03:56:59 AM »

Offline gouki88

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Having Tatum ahead of guys like Doncic and Jokic is crazy. Absolutely crazy. Embiid and him are close too, but I give Tatum the edge due to durability. Trae Young could be on that level if his defence improves.
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Re: I have Tatum 2nd on the best players 25 and under
« Reply #33 on: February 27, 2020, 03:58:03 AM »

Offline Somebody

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Having Tatum ahead of guys like Doncic and Jokic is crazy. Absolutely crazy. Embiid and him are close too, but I give Tatum the edge due to durability. Trae Young could be on that level if his defence improves.
Has Embiid regressed that much? I haven't felt that in the games I've watched this year, and I had him better than Jokic last season.
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Re: I have Tatum 2nd on the best players 25 and under
« Reply #34 on: February 27, 2020, 04:00:32 AM »

Offline gouki88

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Having Tatum ahead of guys like Doncic and Jokic is crazy. Absolutely crazy. Embiid and him are close too, but I give Tatum the edge due to durability. Trae Young could be on that level if his defence improves.
Has Embiid regressed that much? I haven't felt that in the games I've watched this year, and I had him better than Jokic last season.
He’s (for my mind) regressed on defence, and he doesn’t know how to use his offence. In 2020 I’ve thought Jokic has jumped him, mainly because I can see Jokic succeeding with a vast array of teammates, whereas Embiid seems to need quite a particular roster around him.

It doesn’t help that he can’t stay on the court (another injury today, this time a shoulder one)
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Re: I have Tatum 2nd on the best players 25 and under
« Reply #35 on: February 27, 2020, 04:20:41 AM »

Offline RockinRyA

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Having Tatum ahead of guys like Doncic and Jokic is crazy. Absolutely crazy. Embiid and him are close too, but I give Tatum the edge due to durability. Trae Young could be on that level if his defence improves.

Trae Young being the worst defender in the NBA doesnt really help.

Re: I have Tatum 2nd on the best players 25 and under
« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2020, 04:31:47 AM »

Offline gouki88

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Having Tatum ahead of guys like Doncic and Jokic is crazy. Absolutely crazy. Embiid and him are close too, but I give Tatum the edge due to durability. Trae Young could be on that level if his defence improves.

Trae Young being the worst defender in the NBA doesnt really help.
It really doesn’t, but he’s a 30/10 guy in his second season. Nothing to sneeze at.

If his teams start winning and his numbers stay similarly gaudy it’s not a bad look at all
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Re: I have Tatum 2nd on the best players 25 and under
« Reply #37 on: February 27, 2020, 11:15:05 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Having Tatum ahead of guys like Doncic and Jokic is crazy. Absolutely crazy. Embiid and him are close too, but I give Tatum the edge due to durability. Trae Young could be on that level if his defence improves.

How is it crazy?

Jokic is not a reliable 3 point shooter. 

His team D is good but not individual D.

Good passer and high bbiq. But when it comes down to needing the clutch shot, Tatum is better at it

Doncic is a better passer. Thats the only thing he is better than Tatum.  One can argue Tatum has adv or slight adv in everything else

* my guess is that you value Joker and Doncic more because they are a center and pg?
« Last Edit: February 27, 2020, 11:35:57 AM by Tr1boy »

Re: I have Tatum 2nd on the best players 25 and under
« Reply #38 on: February 27, 2020, 11:46:35 AM »

Offline td450

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Having Tatum ahead of guys like Doncic and Jokic is crazy. Absolutely crazy. Embiid and him are close too, but I give Tatum the edge due to durability. Trae Young could be on that level if his defence improves.

How is it crazy?

Jokic is not a reliable 3 point shooter. 

His team D is good but not individual D.

Good passer and high bbiq. But when it comes down to needing the clutch shot, Tatum is better at it

Doncic is a better passer. Thats the only thing he is better than Tatum.  One can argue Tatum has adv or slight adv in everything else

Doncic and Jokic are taking rosters that aren't that impressive and they are winning at a high rate. Those two along with Tatum are going to settle this in the playoffs, and nothing else really matters.

That being said, we are watching Tatum change in real time. We are seeing a very different player than we were watching just a month ago. Last night he ran out of gas a bit in the second half, but I'm convinced this is not just a hot streak. He is becoming something else altogether, and we do not quite know what that is yet. It looks like he will be a reliable, efficient 30+ ppg scorer for the rest of the season.

It will be very interesting indeed to watch what happens when Kemba comes back.

Re: I have Tatum 2nd on the best players 25 and under
« Reply #39 on: February 27, 2020, 11:51:39 AM »

Offline Jvalin

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Having Tatum ahead of guys like Doncic and Jokic is crazy. Absolutely crazy. Embiid and him are close too, but I give Tatum the edge due to durability. Trae Young could be on that level if his defence improves.

How is it crazy?

Jokic is not a reliable 3 point shooter. 

His team D is good but not individual D.

Good passer and high bbiq. But when it comes down to needing the clutch shot, Tatum is better at it

Doncic is a better passer. Thats the only thing he is better than Tatum.  One can argue Tatum has adv or slight adv in everything else
You are right. Tatum is the next Larry legend. He's also the second coming of Jesus. Sound fair enough or should I write more?

We are all excited about Tatum's recent performances, but homerism runs rampant in this board.

Btw, Jokic isn't just "a good passer". He's possibly the best passing big man in NBA history.

Re: I have Tatum 2nd on the best players 25 and under
« Reply #40 on: February 27, 2020, 12:00:09 PM »

Offline RPGenerate

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Having Tatum ahead of guys like Doncic and Jokic is crazy. Absolutely crazy. Embiid and him are close too, but I give Tatum the edge due to durability. Trae Young could be on that level if his defence improves.

How is it crazy?

Jokic is not a reliable 3 point shooter. 

His team D is good but not individual D.

Good passer and high bbiq. But when it comes down to needing the clutch shot, Tatum is better at it

Doncic is a better passer. Thats the only thing he is better than Tatum.  One can argue Tatum has adv or slight adv in everything else
You are right. Tatum is the next Larry legend. He's also the second coming of Jesus. Sound fair enough or should I write more?

We are all excited about Tatum's recent performances, but homerism runs rampant in this board.

Btw, Jokic isn't just "a good passer". He's possibly the best passing big man in NBA history.
Woah, it's almost like we are excited for our player! Weird thought, huh? This "enlightened centralist" stuff is just so pretentious. Anyways, Jokic being a bad defender at center takes him down a huge rung in my book. Teams like the Rockets will run him of the court. His conditioning is suspect.
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Re: I have Tatum 2nd on the best players 25 and under
« Reply #41 on: February 27, 2020, 12:00:51 PM »

Offline Monkhouse

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Having Tatum ahead of guys like Doncic and Jokic is crazy. Absolutely crazy. Embiid and him are close too, but I give Tatum the edge due to durability. Trae Young could be on that level if his defence improves.

How is it crazy?

Jokic is not a reliable 3 point shooter. 

His team D is good but not individual D.

Good passer and high bbiq. But when it comes down to needing the clutch shot, Tatum is better at it

Doncic is a better passer. Thats the only thing he is better than Tatum.  One can argue Tatum has adv or slight adv in everything else
You are right. Tatum is the next Larry legend. He's also the second coming of Jesus. Sound fair enough or should I write more?

We are all excited about Tatum's recent performances, but homerism runs rampant in this board.

Btw, Jokic isn't just "a good passer". He's possibly the best passing big man in NBA history.

It amazes me that people forget how vital and essential Jokic/Doncic are to their teams... Their offense literally runs through them... They are the fulcrum of the offense, and if Jokic wasn't there, I'd shudder to see what Murray's numbers would be like..

I still remember when people wanted Murray over Brown, but I was never really that impressed with Murray's game. They really lucked out getting Jokic for so cheap.

Having Tatum ahead of guys like Doncic and Jokic is crazy. Absolutely crazy. Embiid and him are close too, but I give Tatum the edge due to durability. Trae Young could be on that level if his defence improves.

How is it crazy?

Jokic is not a reliable 3 point shooter. 

His team D is good but not individual D.

Good passer and high bbiq. But when it comes down to needing the clutch shot, Tatum is better at it

Doncic is a better passer. Thats the only thing he is better than Tatum.  One can argue Tatum has adv or slight adv in everything else
You are right. Tatum is the next Larry legend. He's also the second coming of Jesus. Sound fair enough or should I write more?

We are all excited about Tatum's recent performances, but homerism runs rampant in this board.

Btw, Jokic isn't just "a good passer". He's possibly the best passing big man in NBA history.
Woah, it's almost like we are excited for our player! Weird thought, huh? This "enlightened centralist" stuff is just so pretentious. Anyways, Jokic being a bad defender at center takes him down a huge rung in my book. Teams like the Rockets will run him of the court. His conditioning is suspect.

Jokic's been bad defensively, but the entire team itself isn't that great enough to mitigate his weaknesses. Their best defender is also Millsap, who's steadily declining.

That being said, I think people underestimate how great Tatum has been... He's certainly exceeded expectations, and he's definitely in my top 3 for best players 25 and under. People forget defense takes almost just as much precedence as offense does.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2020, 12:06:06 PM by Monkhouse »
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Re: I have Tatum 2nd on the best players 25 and under
« Reply #42 on: February 27, 2020, 12:05:21 PM »

Offline CF033

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I see Doncic and Tatum as about equal right now with the way Tatum has been playing lately.

Doncic is def the better playmaker but it's hard to ignore Tatum's superior defense and significantly better 3 point shooting.

Though I expect over time Doncic's 3 point shooting will improve and Tatum's playmaking will improve.

Re: I have Tatum 2nd on the best players 25 and under
« Reply #43 on: February 27, 2020, 12:20:58 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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When was the last time you seen Doncic able to shoot over/score against Anthony Davis or Leonard ?

Just to be clear here, in the recent games against LAC & LAL, Jason (smartly) scored most of his points against lesser defenders, not those two guys.   In the LAC game he took only 3 shots while guarded by Leonard.  In the LAL game he took only 4 shots while guarded by Davis.  Six of those 7 shots were threes.  Too his credit, he made 5 of those threes.

But he took far more shots and scored far more points in these games against lesser defenders like smaller Landry Shamet, Lou Williams, and slow bigs like Dwight Howard.  Which is exactly what he should be doing.

Tatum did 'make shots' on those two guys -- the aforementioned threes.   But Doncic also has made a few similar big shots against 'stars' that have made highlight reels this year.

I'm not here to belittle what Tatum has done though.  He has definitely been amazing, especially as a scorer, the last few weeks.
Quote
Tatum defense is also much better than Doncic

The only advantage Doncic has over Tatum, is passing. But this is to be expected since Doncic is a natural point guard

I don't disagree with these points.   But I think you may be (a) underselling how much better a defender Tatum is than Doncic while at the same time (b) underselling just how brilliant Doncic is at orchestrating an offense.

Tatum's length and athleticism are clearly far more disruptive on defense than Doncic can be -- and Doncic is a very smart defender and better than most folks give him credit for.

At the same time, Doncic is far more than just a great passer.  He 'moves the defense' with his defense and gets it to react in the way he wants and creates points not just for himself, but also his whole team.

Between scoring and assists, Jayson this year is averaging 30.5 points created per game (on 34.2 mpg).   That's fantastic.

But Luka is averaging a monster 51.3 points-created per game (32.7 mpg)!  That's beyond fantastic.

That's a gigantic gap.  Even if you factor in Jason's more recent climb in average points per game, that still leaves him far short of Luka in offensive impact.
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Re: I have Tatum 2nd on the best players 25 and under
« Reply #44 on: February 27, 2020, 12:33:21 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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When was the last time you seen Doncic able to shoot over/score against Anthony Davis or Leonard ?

Just to be clear here, in the recent games against LAC & LAL, Jason (smartly) scored most of his points against lesser defenders, not those two guys.   In the LAC game he took only 3 shots while guarded by Leonard.  In the LAL game he took only 4 shots while guarded by Davis.  Six of those 7 shots were threes.  Too his credit, he made 5 of those threes.

But he took far more shots and scored far more points in these games against lesser defenders like smaller Landry Shamet, Lou Williams, and slow bigs like Dwight Howard.  Which is exactly what he should be doing.

Tatum did 'make shots' on those two guys -- the aforementioned threes.   But Doncic also has made a few similar big shots against 'stars' that have made highlight reels this year.

I'm not here to belittle what Tatum has done though.  He has definitely been amazing, especially as a scorer, the last few weeks.
Quote
Tatum defense is also much better than Doncic

The only advantage Doncic has over Tatum, is passing. But this is to be expected since Doncic is a natural point guard

I don't disagree with these points.   But I think you may be (a) underselling how much better a defender Tatum is than Doncic while at the same time (b) underselling just how brilliant Doncic is at orchestrating an offense.

Tatum's length and athleticism are clearly far more disruptive on defense than Doncic can be -- and Doncic is a very smart defender and better than most folks give him credit for.

At the same time, Doncic is far more than just a great passer.  He 'moves the defense' with his defense and gets it to react in the way he wants and creates points not just for himself, but also his whole team.

Between scoring and assists, Jayson this year is averaging 30.5 points created per game (on 34.2 mpg).   That's fantastic.

But Luka is averaging a monster 51.3 points-created per game (32.7 mpg)!  That's beyond fantastic.

That's a gigantic gap.  Even if you factor in Jason's more recent climb in average points per game, that still leaves him far short of Luka in offensive impact.

This will always favor point guards, that are also decent in the scoring department

I wouldn't be surprised if players like Chris Paul, Kyle Lowry, Trae Young have a higher points-created per game than Tatum

But these players are not better than Tatum.  I don't think so anyways