Grant Williams: Ime was my favorite Celtics coach

[ozgod]

This snippet from Adam Himmelsbach's interview with GWill is pretty telling because I think it shows that Joe struggled to get separation between the players from being "one of the guys" to being their head coach. Because of how quickly he was put in the head coach position, I'm thinking he found it a challenge to all of a sudden be the guy in charge instead of being "one of the guys". With Ime I think he just had that authority right away, so they liked him but they were also very clear that he was the one in charge. I don't think these guys ever felt that Joe was the one in charge.

For Williams, being benched by Mazzulla, who had become a close friend, could have made the predicament even tougher. Last summer, before Mazzulla had replaced Ime Udoka as coach, Williams invited him and his wife, Camai, to join him on a two-week European vacation. They biked through Madrid, Barcelona, and London, completed basketball workouts, and just enjoyed each other’s company.

The Mazzulla family keeps a prayer board in its home, and at the start of this season there was even a hopeful note pinned on it centered on Williams and his contract situation.

Then the playoffs arrived, and there were reasons for the connection between the two to become chilly. But Williams insists their friendship did not fray.

“The thing is, professionally you can always have different opinions, different outlooks about yourself and the team,” he said. “But personally, that bond never changes. I’m going to be there for him and his family and his sons any day that they need me. Personally, I always will love him as a friend. Although it may not have gone how we both expected this season, we still have a ton of respect for one another. So I’ll always speak highly of him because he deserves it. He’s a good man and a good coach.”

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/07/15/sports/grant-williams-opens-up-about-his-celtics-departure-his-relationship-with-joe-mazzulla-more/

Speaking from personal experience, it's always a challenge getting promoted from people who were your peers, to being in charge of them and responsible for gauging their performance. I found it hard the very first time shortly after college when I was promoted to have people directly reporting to me who I had been drinking and partying with, then I have to write their performance reviews, direct their output, staff them on projects and determine whether they were worthy of a pay increase or not. After that first time it was much easier. Hopefully this season Joe is better able to achieve that separation, especially with additional layers of assistant coaches between him and the team.

Now whether Joe is the right person to have that authority remains to be seen, but someone has to be in charge and it really shouldn't be the players, unless they are willing to hold themselves accountable 

[ChillyWilly]

I keep hearing Media types saying things like: Joe is learning, he'll get better....C's don't have time to wait around for their Coach to get to Championship level, we're just wasting the prime "Championship" Years of our players careers. Dumb.

I am definitely not a huge fan of Joe and would have been totally fine if we moved on from him this offseason, but I do think our players will stop having a hissy fit about him being coach and properly listen to him and our now experienced coaching staff. The players seemingly never got over Ime being fired last season and the coaching staff even seemed miffed at Joe's hire.

I doubt Joe is this savant-like coach like Brad was, but I am confident everybody will at least be on the same page this season.

my sauces told me the 2 biggest issues of letting Ime go and respecting Joe go are no longer with the team. I'm told Joe is Brad's guy period you either buyin or get moved on.

[Roy H.]

I keep hearing Media types saying things like: Joe is learning, he'll get better....C's don't have time to wait around for their Coach to get to Championship level, we're just wasting the prime "Championship" Years of our players careers. Dumb.

I am definitely not a huge fan of Joe and would have been totally fine if we moved on from him this offseason, but I do think our players will stop having a hissy fit about him being coach and properly listen to him and our now experienced coaching staff. The players seemingly never got over Ime being fired last season and the coaching staff even seemed miffed at Joe's hire.

I doubt Joe is this savant-like coach like Brad was, but I am confident everybody will at least be on the same page this season.

The things we hear the players not being on the same page about are them wanting more commitment to defense, and wanting a more versatile offense.  God help us if the players "buy in" more this year.  We'll be launching 90 3PAs per game.

It used to be that when a coach preached "no layups", it meant protect the interior on defense and give hard fouls.  With Joe, "no layups" is his offensive style.  Why take easy attempts close to the basket when you can shoot contested threes instead?

[liam]

Ime wasn't fired. He was suspended and then got another job.  I can't get over the longing for a guy who cost us a championship.

[Roy H.]

Ime wasn't fired. He was suspended and then got another job.  I can't get over the longing for a guy who cost us a championship.

No, he was fired.  He was suspended first, and then fired during the season when Joe was promoted to permanent head coach.

What, specifically, did Ime do?  It's hard blaming him for losing a championship when there are hundreds of intervening factors, including the actions of the front office, the players, and our incompetent replacement.

My theory is that the lawyers, overreacted and recommended Ime's termination for potential liability reasons.  Wyc has shown time, and time again that he cares more about money than maximizing playoff chances. The only thing we have heard in the media was that there was a consensual relationship that started with Ime using some crude language with an employee. 

Is dating a subordinate an offense worth being fired under these circumstances?  Apparently WIC and the lawyers thought so, presumably, with the back stop of the Phoenix Suns and Dallas Mavericks investigations in their head. But, the fact that the Nets wanted to hire Ime and the Rockets did suggests that they didn't see the conduct as heinous.

And, regardless of whether he should have been fired or not, it's indisputable, that he was a better coach than Joe. 

[footey]

Ime wasn't fired. He was suspended and then got another job.  I can't get over the longing for a guy who cost us a championship.

No, he was fired.  He was suspended first, and then fired during the season when Joe was promoted to permanent head coach.

What, specifically, did Ime do?  It's hard blaming him for losing a championship when there are hundreds of intervening factors, including the actions of the front office, the players, and our incompetent replacement.

My theory is that the lawyers, overreacted and recommended Ime's termination for potential liability reasons.  Wyc has shown time, and time again that he cares more about money than maximizing playoff chances. The only thing we have heard in the media was that there was a consensual relationship that started with Ime using some crude language with an employee. 

Is dating a subordinate an offense worth being fired under these circumstances?  Apparently WIC and the lawyers thought so, presumably, with the back stop of the Phoenix Suns and Dallas Mavericks investigations in their head. But, the fact that the Nets wanted to hire Ime and the Rockets did suggests that they didn't see the conduct as heinous.

And, regardless of whether he should have been fired or not, it's indisputable, that he was a better coach than Joe.

I have heard (through a friend who is tight with a member of Celtics security) that Ime was caught on security footage bonking an employee on the premises.   Was warned not to do it again, and then proceeded to do it again.  Two more times. 

I don't know if this is what really happened, but this sounds more plausible than what others seem to speculate, such as fear of a lawsuit.   To be suspended for one indiscretion would seem to be an over-reaction. But to continue to behave improperly following stern warnings would understandably cause management and ownership to take the steps that they did. 

Ownership and management's investment of winning a championship is obvious to me.  For them to terminate a head coach who had just led them to the NBA finals, and had the full support of his players, to avoid a potential lawsuit doesn't add up to me at all.

[Roy H.]

Ime wasn't fired. He was suspended and then got another job.  I can't get over the longing for a guy who cost us a championship.

No, he was fired.  He was suspended first, and then fired during the season when Joe was promoted to permanent head coach.

What, specifically, did Ime do?  It's hard blaming him for losing a championship when there are hundreds of intervening factors, including the actions of the front office, the players, and our incompetent replacement.

My theory is that the lawyers, overreacted and recommended Ime's termination for potential liability reasons.  Wyc has shown time, and time again that he cares more about money than maximizing playoff chances. The only thing we have heard in the media was that there was a consensual relationship that started with Ime using some crude language with an employee. 

Is dating a subordinate an offense worth being fired under these circumstances?  Apparently WIC and the lawyers thought so, presumably, with the back stop of the Phoenix Suns and Dallas Mavericks investigations in their head. But, the fact that the Nets wanted to hire Ime and the Rockets did suggests that they didn't see the conduct as heinous.

And, regardless of whether he should have been fired or not, it's indisputable, that he was a better coach than Joe.

I have heard (through a friend who is a member of Celtics security) that Ime was caught on security footage bonking an employee on the premises.   Was warned not to do it again, and then proceeded to do it again.  Two more times. 

I don't know if this is what really happened, but this sounds more plausible than what others seem to speculate, such as fear of a lawsuit.   To be suspended for one indiscretion would seem to be an over-reaction. But to continue to behave improperly following stern warnings would understandably cause management and ownership to take the steps that they did. 

Ownership and management's investment of winning a championship is obvious to me.  For them to terminate a head coach who had just led them to the NBA finals, and had the full support of his players, to avoid a potential lawsuit doesn't add up to me at all.

Well, the recommendation to fire was made by a law firm, the only findings reported relate to sexual harassment with one individual, and this happened almost exactly after the Suns report came out.  It wouldn't shock me if he had sex "at work" -- which includes road trips under NBA policy -- but I'm skeptical that team security would know what Ime was or wasn't warned about.

[cman88]

If you hire a Law firm to investigate and they give a recommendation that he should be fired its generally not just for a "consensual relationship" i'm not sure how that rumor that he was just fired from a regular relationship got started. Probably from Imes leaking to get ahead of the story.

Either way, Ime put himself in that situation to be fired and put us in that position. so I dont really understand people criticizing the front office on that front. or this revisionist history going on now that the celtics never shouldve suspended/fired Ime and were wrong for doing so.

if we want to criticize them for anything it's Brad promoting Joe (instead of a veteran) and not filling out his coaching staff around him. We lost ALOT of brain talent on that staff. and then Damon left which coincidentally was the same time our play went off a cliff.

now, Brad appears to be somewhat addressing those issues. we still have Joe, but he hired two guys who probably could be head coaches in Lee and Cassell. and the importance in cassell in being a veteran who won championships and won HERE who the players can relate to

[Roy H.]

If you hire a Law firm to investigate and they give a recommendation that he should be fired its generally not just for a "consensual relationship" i'm not sure how that rumor that he was just fired from a regular relationship got started. Probably from Imes leaking to get ahead of the story.

Either way, Ime put himself in that situation to be fired and put us in that position. so I dont really understand people criticizing the front office on that front. or this revisionist history going on now that the celtics never shouldve suspended/fired Ime and were wrong for doing so.

if we want to criticize them for anything it's Brad promoting Joe (instead of a veteran) and not filling out his coaching staff around him. We lost ALOT of brain talent on that staff. and then Damon left which coincidentally was the same time our play went off a cliff.

now, Brad appears to be somewhat addressing those issues. we still have Joe, but he hired two guys who probably could be head coaches in Lee and Cassell. and the importance in cassell in being a veteran who won championships and won HERE who the players can relate to

We have no idea if Ime should have been fired.  The strongly rumored aspects:

* The woman was a subordinate that at times worked closely with Ime (her name and job duties are available online);

* Her husband briefly worked for the Celtics, but now works for a corporate partner in the Boston area;

* Ime made at least one crude / lewd remark to the woman before they engaged in a relationship;

* They had a consensual relationship;

* The relationship ended, at which point Ime made "unwanted comments" about reconciling

No other credibly sourced allegations have been leaked, so that's probably the bulk of what happened.  From a conduct standpoint, there's a legit debate there.  From a "protect the brand" standpoint, if the decision was fire Ime or have a public lawsuit, Wyc probably made a business decision.

If there was sexual assault or a quid pro quo or retaliation, I think he'd be unhireable.  Sleeping with a subordinate from a separate department, leading to that woman ultimately feeling uncomfortable and complaining, is much more likely.  My complete guess is that Ime legitimately had interest in the woman, but then she later felt guilty about cheating on her husband and her kids. 

[liam]

Ime wasn't fired. He was suspended and then got another job.  I can't get over the longing for a guy who cost us a championship.

No, he was fired.  He was suspended first, and then fired during the season when Joe was promoted to permanent head coach.

What, specifically, did Ime do?  It's hard blaming him for losing a championship when there are hundreds of intervening factors, including the actions of the front office, the players, and our incompetent replacement.

My theory is that the lawyers, overreacted and recommended Ime's termination for potential liability reasons.  Wyc has shown time, and time again that he cares more about money than maximizing playoff chances. The only thing we have heard in the media was that there was a consensual relationship that started with Ime using some crude language with an employee. 

Is dating a subordinate an offense worth being fired under these circumstances?  Apparently WIC and the lawyers thought so, presumably, with the back stop of the Phoenix Suns and Dallas Mavericks investigations in their head. But, the fact that the Nets wanted to hire Ime and the Rockets did suggests that they didn't see the conduct as heinous.

And, regardless of whether he should have been fired or not, it's indisputable, that he was a better coach than Joe.

You're saying he was a better coach than Joe but wouldn't have gotten us father than Joe?

[Roy H.]

Ime wasn't fired. He was suspended and then got another job.  I can't get over the longing for a guy who cost us a championship.

No, he was fired.  He was suspended first, and then fired during the season when Joe was promoted to permanent head coach.

What, specifically, did Ime do?  It's hard blaming him for losing a championship when there are hundreds of intervening factors, including the actions of the front office, the players, and our incompetent replacement.

My theory is that the lawyers, overreacted and recommended Ime's termination for potential liability reasons.  Wyc has shown time, and time again that he cares more about money than maximizing playoff chances. The only thing we have heard in the media was that there was a consensual relationship that started with Ime using some crude language with an employee. 

Is dating a subordinate an offense worth being fired under these circumstances?  Apparently WIC and the lawyers thought so, presumably, with the back stop of the Phoenix Suns and Dallas Mavericks investigations in their head. But, the fact that the Nets wanted to hire Ime and the Rockets did suggests that they didn't see the conduct as heinous.

And, regardless of whether he should have been fired or not, it's indisputable, that he was a better coach than Joe.

You're saying he was a better coach than Joe but wouldn't have gotten us father than Joe?

I'm saying that Ime didn't quit, and it's not black and white whether he should have been fired.  We don't know the details.

In terms of moral failures, sleeping with a subordinate isn't an automatic firearble offense, as we're seeing currently with the Maine Attorney General and as we saw for decades with Bill Clinton and his enabler, Hillary.  Those are just high profile examples of what the majority of voters are willing to tolerate. 

So, before we get morally judgy, perhaps we can at least determine what Ime did is objectively terrible, versus just unwise.  And, if we had more facts, we could ask what agency the woman had in the relationship; she's not necessarily some delicate flower that Ime seduced away from her family.

I don't know if Ime should have been fired or not.  Without those facts, it's pretty hard to put the blame on him.   And, based upon some of the lack of focus and bad decisions made by the players, I don't think it's a guarantee that we get by Denver even with Ime.

In other words, the "Ime cost us a championship" narrative is ridiculous, pushed by people who don't want to question the organization or the players.

[ChillyWilly]

Ime wasn't fired. He was suspended and then got another job.  I can't get over the longing for a guy who cost us a championship.

tp

[Roy H.]

Ime wasn't fired. He was suspended and then got another job.  I can't get over the longing for a guy who cost us a championship.

tp

First, Ime was fired.  I'm not sure what difference it makes, but saying he wasn't is just wrong.

Moreover, I don't think there's a single fan longing for Ime, in particular.  A lot of us simply want a coach as good or better than Ime.  That's not Joe.

[Kernewek]

Meh, if Ime keeps his personal life in check, we keep the coaching trio together, and we probably make it to the finals and lose. Again. That’s not worth dwelling on but it’s not unrealistic.

So Udoka is worth at least 1 win in the postseason. That’s not nothing, but it’s not all that much either. I have very little confidence he’ll be of much merit in Houston.

[ChillyWilly]

Ime wasn't fired. He was suspended and then got another job.  I can't get over the longing for a guy who cost us a championship.

tp

First, Ime was fired.  I'm not sure what difference it makes, but saying he wasn't is just wrong.

Moreover, I don't think there's a single fan longing for Ime, in particular.  A lot of us simply want a coach as good or better than Ime.  That's not Joe.

I think comparing Joe and Ime first seasons is unfair. Ime had a full offseason to prepare with his staff. Joe had a week, a left over staff and a p---ed off and confused team. This season is where we find out if Joe is better than Ime.