Author Topic: With Identical Records, Who Gets Home-court : C's or Lakers?  (Read 10145 times)

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Re: With indentical records, who gets home-court : C's or Lakers?
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2011, 03:03:10 PM »

Offline angryguy77

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I'll gladly concede HC to LA as long as we don't have this guy ref a single game in the finals




Re: With indentical records, who gets home-court : C's or Lakers?
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2011, 03:07:44 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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But precedent suggests its "better record against opposing conference" in which case the Lakers have that clinched. The league has never given the Celtics a break before, do you actually think $tern would side with us over the Lakers?

Did this rule change I wonder since 2001?  I agree that precedent shows this to be the way but EVERYWHERE I've read (including the NBA's website) says it would be the team with the better record against their own conference opponents.

Yeah, that's the weird thing - I can find articles written by people who are very confident that it's other-conference record, but everything official I dig up says own-conference.  And I can't find a summary of conference records for the 01 Sixers and Lakers to test it (I could go game-to-game and tally it myself, but...too lazy).

EDIT:  Ok, I unlazied myself and looked this up. 

In 2001, the Lakers and Sixers split the season series.  Sixers were 40-14 against the East, 16-12 against the West.  Lakers were 34-18 against the West, 22-8 against the East.  Lakers got homecourt.

Looks like other-conference record was the tiebreak.  Although that assumes the rule hasn't changed.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 03:17:05 PM by fairweatherfan »

Re: With indentical records, who gets home-court : C's or Lakers?
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2011, 03:19:29 PM »

Offline Rondo2287

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I think the celtics do because the national league won the all star game
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Re: With indentical records, who gets home-court : C's or Lakers?
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2011, 03:22:28 PM »

Offline RMO

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But precedent suggests its "better record against opposing conference" in which case the Lakers have that clinched. The league has never given the Celtics a break before, do you actually think $tern would side with us over the Lakers?

Did this rule change I wonder since 2001?  I agree that precedent shows this to be the way but EVERYWHERE I've read (including the NBA's website) says it would be the team with the better record against their own conference opponents.

Yeah, that's the weird thing - I can find articles written by people who are very confident that it's other-conference record, but everything official I dig up says own-conference.  And I can't find a summary of conference records for the 01 Sixers and Lakers to test it (I could go game-to-game and tally it myself, but...too lazy).

EDIT:  Ok, I unlazied myself and looked this up.  

In 2001, the Lakers and Sixers split the season series.  Sixers were 40-14 against the East, 16-12 against the West.  Lakers were 34-18 against the West, 22-8 against the East.  Lakers got homecourt.

Looks like other-conference record was the tiebreak.  Although that assumes the rule hasn't changed.

If that is the rule it makes no sense to me.  Why would it be against the opposing conference when only one third of the games a team plays are against opponents in the other conference?

Re: With indentical records, who gets home-court : C's or Lakers?
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2011, 03:23:14 PM »

Offline Chris

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Although that assumes the rule hasn't changed.

This is the key.  We know some seeding rules have changed since then.  So far, in my search, all rules I have seem listed (including on NBA.com) suggest that the tiebreaker would be record in your own conference.  The only places I have seen any mention of the tiebreaker being the record against the opposing conference has been from LA papers and blogs, and they do not cite anything for this rule.

So, either they know something we don't, and there is another document out there somewhere that lays out the special rules for the finals (which are different than the rest of the playoffs), or, those LA writers remember that series in 2001, and are making the assumption that nothing has changed since then.  Considering how terrible many of these guys are at understanding the nuances of rules like this (and to print innacurate information), I don't think that is an unreasonable scenario.

Honestly, I don't know what to think.

Re: With indentical records, who gets home-court : C's or Lakers?
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2011, 03:25:55 PM »

Offline Chris

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But precedent suggests its "better record against opposing conference" in which case the Lakers have that clinched. The league has never given the Celtics a break before, do you actually think $tern would side with us over the Lakers?

Did this rule change I wonder since 2001?  I agree that precedent shows this to be the way but EVERYWHERE I've read (including the NBA's website) says it would be the team with the better record against their own conference opponents.

Yeah, that's the weird thing - I can find articles written by people who are very confident that it's other-conference record, but everything official I dig up says own-conference.  And I can't find a summary of conference records for the 01 Sixers and Lakers to test it (I could go game-to-game and tally it myself, but...too lazy).

EDIT:  Ok, I unlazied myself and looked this up.  

In 2001, the Lakers and Sixers split the season series.  Sixers were 40-14 against the East, 16-12 against the West.  Lakers were 34-18 against the West, 22-8 against the East.  Lakers got homecourt.

Looks like other-conference record was the tiebreak.  Although that assumes the rule hasn't changed.

If that is the rule it makes no sense to me.  Why would it be against the opposing conference when only one third of the games a team plays are against opponents in the other conference?

I would assume it is to help balance the playing field in case one of the conferences is stronger than the other.

For example, if the Eastern conference was much weaker than the Western conference like it was a few years ago, since the C's play 2/3 of their schedule against the Eastern Conference, it should be easier for them to have a better overall record than the Lakers, who play 2/3 of their schedule against the Western Conference.  Therefore, if they have the same record, they balance that off a bit, by seeing if the Lakers played better against the weaker Eastern Conference, or the Celtics played better against the stronger Western conference.

Really, it makes a ton of sense...I just can't see any official listing of this rule.

Re: With indentical records, who gets home-court : C's or Lakers?
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2011, 03:27:39 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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EDIT:  Ok, I unlazied myself and looked this up. 

In 2001, the Lakers and Sixers split the season series.  Sixers were 40-14 against the East, 16-12 against the West.  Lakers were 34-18 against the West, 22-8 against the East.  Lakers got homecourt.

Looks like other-conference record was the tiebreak.  Although that assumes the rule hasn't changed.

If that is the rule it makes no sense to me.  Why would it be against the opposing conference when only one third of the games a team plays are against opponents in the other conference?

Presumably because your opponent is now from the other conference.  For ties within your own division, who played the best in that context is the (2nd) tiebreaker.  For ties outside the division but in the conference, it's who did better in that context.  Against the other conference, the tiebreaker shifts to reflect the interconference matchup.  That's my guess on the rationale at least.

More pragmatically, If you look at '01, both the Sixers and Lakers did better against the East than West.  Makes sense since the East was pretty awful at the time.  But this means the Sixers had a built-in advantage because they played more games against the weaker conference. 

So the tiebreak's designed to pick out who played in the tougher conference and reward them.  And frankly, top-to-bottom I'd have to say the West is still somewhat better this year.

Re: With indentical records, who gets home-court : C's or Lakers?
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2011, 03:31:19 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Here's a recent source from NBA.com that says it's record against opposing conference:

http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2011/03/29/home-court-in-finals-up-for-grabs/?ls=iref:nbahpt1

Case closed, hopefully.


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Re: With indentical records, who gets home-court : C's or Lakers?
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2011, 03:32:49 PM »

Offline CelticG1

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Yeah I don't see how that makes sense much sense.

Why in the conference standings with a tie break would be who has the best divisional record? Shouldn't it be who has a better record against the other respective division. Seems like an inconsistent method if thats the case

Re: With indentical records, who gets home-court : C's or Lakers?
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2011, 03:34:42 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Really, it makes a ton of sense...I just can't see any official listing of this rule.

Yeah, that's what annoys me - there's literally zero indication of this on any official NBA site.  Very confusing.

Why in the conference standings with a tie break would be who has the best divisional record? Shouldn't it be who has a better record against the other respective division. Seems like an inconsistent method if thats the case

Division record is only a tiebreak if both teams are in the same division.  If you're same-conference, different-division, it doesn't matter at all.

Re: With indentical records, who gets home-court : C's or Lakers?
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2011, 03:35:43 PM »

Offline Chris

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Here's a recent source from NBA.com that says it's record against opposing conference:

http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2011/03/29/home-court-in-finals-up-for-grabs/?ls=iref:nbahpt1

Case closed, hopefully.

Yeah, it definitely seems to be the case.  I wish the NBA would make that stuff more clear though.  Their playoff seeding page is incredibly decieving.

Re: With indentical records, who gets home-court : C's or Lakers?
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2011, 03:38:40 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Yeah I don't see how that makes sense much sense

Why in the conference standings with a tie break would be who has the best divisional record? Shouldn't it be who has a better record against the other respective division. Seems like an inconsistent method if thats the case

The rules as summarized on NBA.com are a little confusing.

The first tie-breaker for all ties is head to head record, *except* a division winner trumps a team that didn't win its division.

The second tie-breaker for teams in the same division is division record.

The second tie-breaker for teams in the same conference, but not in the same division, is conference record.

The second tie-breaker for teams in opposite conference is record against opposing conference.


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Re: With indentical records, who gets home-court : C's or Lakers?
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2011, 03:38:48 PM »

Offline Chris

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Yeah I don't see how that makes sense much sense.

Why in the conference standings with a tie break would be who has the best divisional record? Shouldn't it be who has a better record against the other respective division. Seems like an inconsistent method if thats the case

That's not the case.  They only use divisional record if you are in the same division.  Otherwise, it goes to conference record.  

So, if the Knicks and 76ers are tied, they would go to Divisional record, but not if the C's and Bulls are tied.  

Re: With indentical records, who gets home-court : C's or Lakers?
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2011, 03:41:15 PM »

Offline Chris

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Either way, lets just hope the C's win out, and the Lakers lose 2 more games.  Since the Lakers still have to face the Spurs, OKC, and the Blazers (to go along with the upset special tonight on the second night of a back to back facing the frisky Warriors), I don't think this is out of the question, if the C's take care of business.

Re: With indentical records, who gets home-court : C's or Lakers?
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2011, 03:57:06 PM »

Offline mobilija

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If I were the NBA, I would use the quotient system on both teams' series this season...

???