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Around the League => Transaction Ideas and Rumors => Topic started by: perks-a-beast on May 16, 2018, 04:43:13 PM

Title: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: perks-a-beast on May 16, 2018, 04:43:13 PM
Orlando desperately needs a point guard and Rozier is better than any they'll find in this draft. He can probably give that team 17/5/5 next year for sure. Celtics can use the pick for a big in Jackson/Carter/Bamba who can be molded by Stevens and eventually take over the Al Horford role.

Is this a fair deal or do the Celtics need to give more in return?
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: bknova on May 16, 2018, 04:47:55 PM
Not enough.  Rozier, 27 and the Clipper pick? Still not enough, but thats gotta be the starting point, at least.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: CELTICSofBOSTON on May 16, 2018, 04:47:57 PM
That’s not a good deal for them.  Rozier does not have top 6 pick value.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: rondofan1255 on May 16, 2018, 04:50:28 PM
No way they do this
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: bknova on May 16, 2018, 04:51:01 PM
That’s not a good deal for them.  Rozier does not have top 6 pick value.

I don't know. There's a faction on this board that believes that his recent play makes Kyrie Irving expendable.  If one of them happens to work in the Magic's front office, who knows?!
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: PAOBoston on May 16, 2018, 04:54:15 PM
I mean, I would be sad to see Rozier go as he is fantastic Irving insurance, but there is always a sucker out there.

Wendell Carter seems like a great Horford comp imo if he's there.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: Monkhouse on May 16, 2018, 04:56:06 PM
I'd use that 6th pick on Bamba or trade down and draft Mikal Bridges. I think he's the next best thing. He's gonna surprise a lot of people.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: CelticsElite on May 16, 2018, 04:58:01 PM
Rozier is an expiring contract
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: bknova on May 16, 2018, 04:58:34 PM
11-14 is probably your best bet for a reasonable return for Terry + 27. 


Terry, Jamal Murray, Gary Harris,  and Jokic would make a nice little core for Denver.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: bknova on May 16, 2018, 04:59:17 PM
Rozier is an expiring contract

One more year on his rookie deal, then he's restricted.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: liam on May 16, 2018, 05:00:44 PM
You might get that Cavs pick for Rozier and 27.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: Roy H. on May 16, 2018, 05:01:29 PM
I think #16 + #31 from Phoenix is more realistic, if they decided to take Ayton.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: nickagneta on May 16, 2018, 05:01:59 PM
Rather keep Rozier through next year to go all in for a title next year. Injuries happen, as we all know, and having Rozier around to be insurance to play a bigger role due to injury to another player, in a year you are going for it all, is huge. We can deal with either resigning him or sign and trading him after next year's playoffs.

Also doubt Orlando does it. They would have Rozier for only two years guaranteed, his last year on his rookie contract and his QO year.

Also, Orlando could also see Trae Young or Collin Sexton as having higher upside, which, both could possibly have.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: perks-a-beast on May 16, 2018, 05:05:03 PM
That’s not a good deal for them.  Rozier does not have top 6 pick value.


I'm not sure about this. Rozier would be considered an excellent 6th pick in most drafts..just look at some of the past 6th picks in recent memory..Cauley-Stein, Isaac, Noel, Vesely, Flynn..historically the 6th pick is a crap shoot. To get a player of Roziers caliber (gives you Kyle Lowry like impact) for it- when your a franchise like the magic who always seem to screw up the pick anyways- that's a pretty sweet deal.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: green_bballers13 on May 16, 2018, 05:06:36 PM
Rozier is a good player, but I don't think he's special. PG is the deepest position, meaning its the easiest to fill. Phoenix may be willing to trade the #1 pick for him, but I don't think so. I don't even see Rozier yielding a top 10 pick.

I think he has more value on the Celtics as a backup for Irving. If he demands a trade, that's a whole other thing. I can't imagine a team is going to trade a valuable asset for a guy that they could have in a year if they really want him.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: green_bballers13 on May 16, 2018, 05:08:57 PM
That’s not a good deal for them.  Rozier does not have top 6 pick value.


I'm not sure about this. Rozier would be considered an excellent 6th pick in most drafts..just look at some of the past 6th picks in recent memory..Cauley-Stein, Isaac, Noel, Vesely, Flynn..historically the 6th pick is a crap shoot. To get a player of Roziers caliber (gives you Kyle Lowry like impact) for it- when your a franchise like the magic who always seem to screw up the pick anyways- that's a pretty sweet deal.

The GM that plans on screwing up the draft is the GM that is looking for a job.

None of those players you mentioned were projected to be busts by the team that drafted them.

What is Rozier's caliber? I think he's an average starting pg in the NBA.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: perks-a-beast on May 16, 2018, 05:08:58 PM
Rozier is an expiring contract

Didn't stop Orlando from trading sabonis and oladipo for ibaka when he was an expiring. Which is why I'm saying ainge would take advantage of the magics clearly incompetent front office.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: CelticsElite on May 16, 2018, 05:13:00 PM
Rozier is an expiring contract

Didn't stop Orlando from trading sabonis and oladipo for ibaka when he was an expiring. Which is why I'm saying ainge would take advantage of the magics clearly incompetent front office.
that Orlando deal was terrible. They traded oladipo the all star for half a season of 35 year old ibaka

I do get what you’re coming from
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: perks-a-beast on May 16, 2018, 05:13:32 PM
That’s not a good deal for them.  Rozier does not have top 6 pick value.


I'm not sure about this. Rozier would be considered an excellent 6th pick in most drafts..just look at some of the past 6th picks in recent memory..Cauley-Stein, Isaac, Noel, Vesely, Flynn..historically the 6th pick is a crap shoot. To get a player of Roziers caliber (gives you Kyle Lowry like impact) for it- when your a franchise like the magic who always seem to screw up the pick anyways- that's a pretty sweet deal.

The GM that plans on screwing up the draft is the GM that is looking for a job.

None of those players you mentioned were projected to be busts by the team that drafted them.

What is Rozier's caliber? I think he's an average starting pg in the NBA.


I stated twice what I think roziers caliber is..17/5/5 guy who can potentially (maybe already is) be a Kyle Lowry type player. There have been too many playoff games where Rozier has looked like the best player on the floor to dismiss his recent production as a fluke.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: perks-a-beast on May 16, 2018, 05:15:59 PM
I think #16 + #31 from Phoenix is more realistic, if they decided to take Ayton.

Wouldn't make that deal. This draft is very good maybe 1-9, but there aren't any prospects that stand out to me in late lottery or early second round. Roziers worth more even on an expiring deal.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: Vermont Green on May 16, 2018, 05:21:15 PM
If I was to trade Rozier, i would want to trade him for a player that can help the team now (most likely a big), not a draft pick.  And if we did that, we have to pay the 6th pick over $4M while only $3M.  I know that is not a big difference but I would rather have that $1M to pay Smart.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: knuckleballer on May 16, 2018, 05:21:33 PM
That's not enough.  Rozier and the Sacramento pick is more realistic.  I would do that trade.  I would love to get one of the big guys in this draft.

Assuming good health next year and keeping Smart, I don't see where Rozier gets his minutes and his offense won't be as needed with Irving and Haward back.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: Tr1boy on May 16, 2018, 05:22:45 PM
not enough

this would probably get you the 8th pick (after missing out on Young, Bamba)  from the Cavs

no thanks

Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: perks-a-beast on May 16, 2018, 05:33:01 PM
not enough

this would probably get you the 8th pick (after missing out on Young, Bamba)  from the Cavs

no thanks

Don't think CLE would be in a rush to trade with us again lol.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: byennie on May 16, 2018, 05:37:51 PM
It's not crazy, if management feels the pressure to improve now. Their point guard situation is absolute garbage (DJ Augustin??), and there are big question marks around Trae Young getting abused if he's thrown into a starting role right away.

Orlando needs a lot of pieces, including some players that can actually compete right now. Rozier was a steal at #16 and already been developed into a starter-level young player, I don't see why #6 is such a stretch. Draft picks outside the top 3-5 are notoriously overrated...

Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: byennie on May 16, 2018, 05:38:54 PM
not enough

this would probably get you the 8th pick (after missing out on Young, Bamba)  from the Cavs

no thanks

6th pick no, 8th pick yes? That's a pretty fine line to draw before draft night.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: Granath on May 16, 2018, 05:40:32 PM
I think #16 + #31 from Phoenix is more realistic, if they decided to take Ayton.

That's idiotic. So now that Rozier is a proven NBA baller, he's only worth the exact same slot at which he was selected plus a crappy 2nd rounder? While fans tend to over-project their draft picks, good GMs don't. They know the track record of draft positions. Lets do the same by looking at the last 15 guys selected at #16 (pre-Rozier):

Jusuf Nurkic
Lucas Nogueira
Royce White
Nikola Vucevic
Luke Babbitt
James Johnson
Marreese Speights
Nick Young
Rodney Carney
Joey Graham
Kirk Snyder
Troy Bell
Jiri Welch
Kirk Haston

That's a couple of good players, a couple of role players and a whole lot of busts. That's what is expected from that slot. GMs know this. They know a bird in hand is worth a lot more than two in the bush. At 17/5/5 - which is what Rozier has put up the last 1/2 of a season - and good defense Rozier could be considered the best out of that entire list. That's worth a HELLUVA lot more than the 16th pick. That's insulting.

In fact, let's look at the #6 picks in that same time frame:

Marcus Smart
Nerlens Noel
Damian Lillard
Jan Vesley
Ekpe Udoh
Jonny Flynn
Danilo Gallinari
Yi Jianlian
Brandon Roy
Martell Webster
Josh Childress
Chris Kaman
Dajuan Wagner
Shane Battier

Rozier is better than half of that list already and is a known quantity. So yeah, Rozier for the #6 pick isn't that far fetched when someone actually understands the danger of drafting and how many players outside of the top 5 bust.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: BitterJim on May 16, 2018, 05:41:41 PM
Oops
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: Celtics4ever on May 16, 2018, 05:47:27 PM
Fair deal for the other team bad for us.



Quote
Rozier is an expiring contract

Not for another year he is not.

https://hoopshype.com/player/terry-rozier/salary/

We got him all next year.   But sure it may hurt his value.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: knuckleballer on May 16, 2018, 05:51:21 PM
I think #16 + #31 from Phoenix is more realistic, if they decided to take Ayton.

That's idiotic. So now that Rozier is a proven NBA baller, he's only worth the exact same slot at which he was selected plus a crappy 2nd rounder? While fans tend to over-project their draft picks, good GMs don't. They know the track record of draft positions. Lets do the same by looking at the last 15 guys selected at #16 (pre-Rozier):

Jusuf Nurkic
Lucas Nogueira
Royce White
Nikola Vucevic
Luke Babbitt
James Johnson
Marreese Speights
Nick Young
Rodney Carney
Joey Graham
Kirk Snyder
Troy Bell
Jiri Welch
Kirk Haston

That's a couple of good players, a couple of role players and a whole lot of busts. That's what is expected from that slot. GMs know this. They know a bird in hand is worth a lot more than two in the bush. At 17/5/5 - which is what Rozier has put up the last 1/2 of a season - and good defense Rozier could be considered the best out of that entire list. That's worth a HELLUVA lot more than the 16th pick. That's insulting.

In fact, let's look at the #6 picks in that same time frame:

Marcus Smart
Nerlens Noel
Damian Lillard
Jan Vesley
Ekpe Udoh
Jonny Flynn
Danilo Gallinari
Yi Jianlian
Brandon Roy
Martell Webster
Josh Childress
Chris Kaman
Dajuan Wagner
Shane Battier

Rozier is better than half of that list already and is a known quantity. So yeah, Rozier for the #6 pick isn't that far fetched when someone actually understands the danger of drafting and how many players outside of the top 5 bust.

Rozier is heading into the last year of his contract which causes him to lose a lot of value.  If Mitchell Robinson falls to the 16th pick and and Danny and Brad are impressed by him, that trade could make sense.  The 31st pick could be used on a pg who would be a third stringer for now and be groomed.  There are some decent/somewhat promising point guards projected to be drafted around there.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: CelticsElite on May 16, 2018, 05:55:58 PM
I think #16 + #31 from Phoenix is more realistic, if they decided to take Ayton.

That's idiotic. So now that Rozier is a proven NBA baller, he's only worth the exact same slot at which he was selected plus a crappy 2nd rounder? While fans tend to over-project their draft picks, good GMs don't. They know the track record of draft positions. Lets do the same by looking at the last 15 guys selected at #16 (pre-Rozier):

Jusuf Nurkic
Lucas Nogueira
Royce White
Nikola Vucevic
Luke Babbitt
James Johnson
Marreese Speights
Nick Young
Rodney Carney
Joey Graham
Kirk Snyder
Troy Bell
Jiri Welch
Kirk Haston

That's a couple of good players, a couple of role players and a whole lot of busts. That's what is expected from that slot. GMs know this. They know a bird in hand is worth a lot more than two in the bush. At 17/5/5 - which is what Rozier has put up the last 1/2 of a season - and good defense Rozier could be considered the best out of that entire list. That's worth a HELLUVA lot more than the 16th pick. That's insulting.

In fact, let's look at the #6 picks in that same time frame:

Marcus Smart
Nerlens Noel
Damian Lillard
Jan Vesley
Ekpe Udoh
Jonny Flynn
Danilo Gallinari
Yi Jianlian
Brandon Roy
Martell Webster
Josh Childress
Chris Kaman
Dajuan Wagner
Shane Battier

Rozier is better than half of that list already and is a known quantity. So yeah, Rozier for the #6 pick isn't that far fetched when someone actually understands the danger of drafting and how many players outside of the top 5 bust.

Rozier is heading into the last year of his contract which causes him to lose a lot of value.  If Mitchell Robinson falls to the 16th pick and and Danny and Brad are impressed by him, that trade could make sense.  The 31st pick could be used on a pg who would be a third stringer for now and be groomed.  There are some decent/somewhat promising point guards projected to be drafted around there.
mitchell Robinson isn’t very tough though

(https://image.ibb.co/eSfqLd/6_FB662_EC_922_C_4653_BF41_9_BC84083_AA7_D.jpg)

I can’t picture this guy banging in the low post against the Dwight Howard’s and Cousins of the world
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: perks-a-beast on May 16, 2018, 05:56:24 PM
Fair deal for the other team bad for us.

Nah. In all likelihood if we hold on to Rozier we lose him for nothing after one more year - ainge is not paying him what other teams will offer, especially when he's got guys like Brown and Tatum he'll need to pay a pretty penny to.  Having a chance to balance out the roster and get a player like Carter or Bamba To man the front line in the future is best. 2019 SAC pick can be used to replace Rozier as that draft is projected to be guard heavy.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: Boris Badenov on May 16, 2018, 05:56:40 PM
Rather keep Rozier through next year to go all in for a title next year. Injuries happen, as we all know, and having Rozier around to be insurance to play a bigger role due to injury to another player, in a year you are going for it all, is huge. We can deal with either resigning him or sign and trading him after next year's playoffs.


Exactly. I feel like a lot of the Smart/Rozier talk around here is all-nothing, either we sign them long-term or let them go. But we could do lots of other things. We could re-sign Smart and trade him next summer, and then re-sign Rozier, for example.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: CelticsElite on May 16, 2018, 05:58:39 PM
Rather keep Rozier through next year to go all in for a title next year. Injuries happen, as we all know, and having Rozier around to be insurance to play a bigger role due to injury to another player, in a year you are going for it all, is huge. We can deal with either resigning him or sign and trading him after next year's playoffs.


Exactly. I feel like a lot of the Smart/Rozier talk around here is all-nothing, either we sign them long-term or let them go. But we could do lots of other things. We could re-sign Smart and trade him next summer, and then re-sign Rozier, for example.
plus what’s the point of trading for a middle of the pack draft pick ? I get having assets but we are beyond that point of asset collection, we have a good amount of draft picks remaining that we don’t even know what to do with. Roll with rozier and see what happens
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: Roy H. on May 16, 2018, 06:07:26 PM
I think #16 + #31 from Phoenix is more realistic, if they decided to take Ayton.

That's idiotic. So now that Rozier is a proven NBA baller, he's only worth the exact same slot at which he was selected plus a crappy 2nd rounder? While fans tend to over-project their draft picks, good GMs don't. They know the track record of draft positions. Lets do the same by looking at the last 15 guys selected at #16 (pre-Rozier):

Jusuf Nurkic
Lucas Nogueira
Royce White
Nikola Vucevic
Luke Babbitt
James Johnson
Marreese Speights
Nick Young
Rodney Carney
Joey Graham
Kirk Snyder
Troy Bell
Jiri Welch
Kirk Haston

That's a couple of good players, a couple of role players and a whole lot of busts. That's what is expected from that slot. GMs know this. They know a bird in hand is worth a lot more than two in the bush. At 17/5/5 - which is what Rozier has put up the last 1/2 of a season - and good defense Rozier could be considered the best out of that entire list. That's worth a HELLUVA lot more than the 16th pick. That's insulting.

In fact, let's look at the #6 picks in that same time frame:

Marcus Smart
Nerlens Noel
Damian Lillard
Jan Vesley
Ekpe Udoh
Jonny Flynn
Danilo Gallinari
Yi Jianlian
Brandon Roy
Martell Webster
Josh Childress
Chris Kaman
Dajuan Wagner
Shane Battier

Rozier is better than half of that list already and is a known quantity. So yeah, Rozier for the #6 pick isn't that far fetched when someone actually understands the danger of drafting and how many players outside of the top 5 bust.

And yet, when you look at history, you see guys like Eric Bledsoe, Jeff Teague and Reggie Jackson being traded for modest returns.  “Idiotic” or not, the market hasn’t shown much value for PGs lately.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: Neurotic Guy on May 16, 2018, 06:11:27 PM
I think #16 + #31 from Phoenix is more realistic, if they decided to take Ayton.

That's idiotic. So now that Rozier is a proven NBA baller, he's only worth the exact same slot at which he was selected plus a crappy 2nd rounder? While fans tend to over-project their draft picks, good GMs don't. They know the track record of draft positions. Lets do the same by looking at the last 15 guys selected at #16 (pre-Rozier):

Jusuf Nurkic
Lucas Nogueira
Royce White
Nikola Vucevic
Luke Babbitt
James Johnson
Marreese Speights
Nick Young
Rodney Carney
Joey Graham
Kirk Snyder
Troy Bell
Jiri Welch
Kirk Haston

That's a couple of good players, a couple of role players and a whole lot of busts. That's what is expected from that slot. GMs know this. They know a bird in hand is worth a lot more than two in the bush. At 17/5/5 - which is what Rozier has put up the last 1/2 of a season - and good defense Rozier could be considered the best out of that entire list. That's worth a HELLUVA lot more than the 16th pick. That's insulting.

In fact, let's look at the #6 picks in that same time frame:

Marcus Smart
Nerlens Noel
Damian Lillard
Jan Vesley
Ekpe Udoh
Jonny Flynn
Danilo Gallinari
Yi Jianlian
Brandon Roy
Martell Webster
Josh Childress
Chris Kaman
Dajuan Wagner
Shane Battier

Rozier is better than half of that list already and is a known quantity. So yeah, Rozier for the #6 pick isn't that far fetched when someone actually understands the danger of drafting and how many players outside of the top 5 bust.


Your logic is impossible to dispute.  The only thing I can say is that while GMs are mostly smart people and know their jobs better than any of us, they are also prone to human temptation and that is why the potential superstar in the proverbial "bush" is sometimes perceived as more valuable than the solid starter in the hand.   When Milwaukee gets Giannis at 15 and Donovan Mitchell goes at 13, GMs take notice and can convince themselves that they are going to find the next one.   Sometimes the fear of trading the pick that becomes the next GA for Terry Rozier is the fear that holds them back and gives undeserved value to the pick.   Also... the salary control piece has value as well.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: perks-a-beast on May 16, 2018, 06:12:49 PM
Rather keep Rozier through next year to go all in for a title next year. Injuries happen, as we all know, and having Rozier around to be insurance to play a bigger role due to injury to another player, in a year you are going for it all, is huge. We can deal with either resigning him or sign and trading him after next year's playoffs.


Exactly. I feel like a lot of the Smart/Rozier talk around here is all-nothing, either we sign them long-term or let them go. But we could do lots of other things. We could re-sign Smart and trade him next summer, and then re-sign Rozier, for example.
plus what’s the point of trading for a middle of the pack draft pick ? I get having assets but we are beyond that point of asset collection, we have a good amount of draft picks remaining that we don’t even know what to do with. Roll with rozier and see what happens

The point of trading Rozier for a "middle of the pack" draft pick is that in all likelihood 2 of 3 of Bamba, Jackson, Carter will be available with the 6th pick. All project highly as versatile bigs. I got news for you people - Al Horford is going to be 32 years old. Whose replacing him on the front line? Does Daniel Theis all of a sudden become an all nba player? Best to get someone in here using an asset in Rozier -which we probably have for a year more at best- so that we can have someone good over the height of 6 foot 9 on the roster, because despite recent trends size is still important in the pros.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: keevsnick on May 16, 2018, 06:13:57 PM
Rather keep Rozier through next year to go all in for a title next year. Injuries happen, as we all know, and having Rozier around to be insurance to play a bigger role due to injury to another player, in a year you are going for it all, is huge. We can deal with either resigning him or sign and trading him after next year's playoffs.


Exactly. I feel like a lot of the Smart/Rozier talk around here is all-nothing, either we sign them long-term or let them go. But we could do lots of other things. We could re-sign Smart and trade him next summer, and then re-sign Rozier, for example.
plus what’s the point of trading for a middle of the pack draft pick ? I get having assets but we are beyond that point of asset collection, we have a good amount of draft picks remaining that we don’t even know what to do with. Roll with rozier and see what happens

I get this sentiment, im just not sure keeping Rozier makes all thay much difference in a title run, hes not gonna be a starter, closer, sixth man, and he will likely be what the fifth option at best? If you can get a long term big man to replace Horford for Rozier than do it. Chicago at 7, New York at 9 strikes ne as teams that wont want to wait and could use a shooting point. Somebody like Bamba or Carter will slip there. Im all foraximizing winning, but I also want to see a long term dynasty and replacibg Horford is a big part of that.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: CelticsElite on May 16, 2018, 06:17:46 PM
Rather keep Rozier through next year to go all in for a title next year. Injuries happen, as we all know, and having Rozier around to be insurance to play a bigger role due to injury to another player, in a year you are going for it all, is huge. We can deal with either resigning him or sign and trading him after next year's playoffs.


Exactly. I feel like a lot of the Smart/Rozier talk around here is all-nothing, either we sign them long-term or let them go. But we could do lots of other things. We could re-sign Smart and trade him next summer, and then re-sign Rozier, for example.
plus what’s the point of trading for a middle of the pack draft pick ? I get having assets but we are beyond that point of asset collection, we have a good amount of draft picks remaining that we don’t even know what to do with. Roll with rozier and see what happens

I get this sentiment, im just not sure keeping Rozier makes all thay much difference in a title run, hes not gonna be a starter, closer, sixth man, and he will likely be what the fifth option at best? If you can get a long term big man to replace Horford for Rozier than do it. Chicago at 7, New York at 9 strikes ne as teams that wont want to wait and could use a shooting point. Somebody like Bamba or Carter will slip there. Im all foraximizing winning, but I also want to see a long term dynasty and replacibg Horford is a big part of that.
you don’t see how being an insurance policy for kyrie is a good thing? How many healthy seasons has kyrie had? If we want a serious title run, we need serious insurance
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: keevsnick on May 16, 2018, 06:31:25 PM
Rather keep Rozier through next year to go all in for a title next year. Injuries happen, as we all know, and having Rozier around to be insurance to play a bigger role due to injury to another player, in a year you are going for it all, is huge. We can deal with either resigning him or sign and trading him after next year's playoffs.


Exactly. I feel like a lot of the Smart/Rozier talk around here is all-nothing, either we sign them long-term or let them go. But we could do lots of other things. We could re-sign Smart and trade him next summer, and then re-sign Rozier, for example.
plus what’s the point of trading for a middle of the pack draft pick ? I get having assets but we are beyond that point of asset collection, we have a good amount of draft picks remaining that we don’t even know what to do with. Roll with rozier and see what happens

I get this sentiment, im just not sure keeping Rozier makes all thay much difference in a title run, hes not gonna be a starter, closer, sixth man, and he will likely be what the fifth option at best? If you can get a long term big man to replace Horford for Rozier than do it. Chicago at 7, New York at 9 strikes ne as teams that wont want to wait and could use a shooting point. Somebody like Bamba or Carter will slip there. Im all foraximizing winning, but I also want to see a long term dynasty and replacibg Horford is a big part of that.
you don’t see how being an insurance policy for kyrie is a good thing? How many healthy seasons has kyrie had? If we want a serious title run, we need serious insurance

 Its gonna be very close next year between us and GS assuming health. The point I am making is losing Irving with or without Rozier means the title is out of reach, keeping him is nice insurance but it doesnt get you were u need to go. And if Irving is healthy Rozier doesnt have the same bug role.

Now of course I could be wrong, I need to see how we stack up against GS this year to have a better idea. I just dont know if keeping Rozier for 1 extra year to increase our win chance by some small percent and then losing him is better than picking up a long term piece. Think of how important Horford is to our team, he will be 32 next year. If we can find the next young big I think about it.

Of course so.mych depends on how Ainge evaluates Rozier, draft propects, Smart, our title chances, ect. Im just saying you think about it.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: Roy H. on May 16, 2018, 06:35:12 PM
Rather keep Rozier through next year to go all in for a title next year. Injuries happen, as we all know, and having Rozier around to be insurance to play a bigger role due to injury to another player, in a year you are going for it all, is huge. We can deal with either resigning him or sign and trading him after next year's playoffs.


The only question there is whether he’ll accept his role for another year. He’s already called himself a starter. Does he go back to the bench for 65+ games next year heading into restricted free agency?

Quote
“I know in the future that I want to be a starter,” Rozier said, according to NBC Sports. “I’m going to be a starter. I came in. I played after Isaiah Thomas, and I’m playing after Kyrie (Irving) now, and that’s the only reason I don’t start. That’s how I’m looking at it. But I know I’ll be a starter in this league.

That was in December. He’s crushed it since then. Can we keep him (and his agent) happy?
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: knuckleballer on May 16, 2018, 06:36:20 PM
Rather keep Rozier through next year to go all in for a title next year. Injuries happen, as we all know, and having Rozier around to be insurance to play a bigger role due to injury to another player, in a year you are going for it all, is huge. We can deal with either resigning him or sign and trading him after next year's playoffs.


Exactly. I feel like a lot of the Smart/Rozier talk around here is all-nothing, either we sign them long-term or let them go. But we could do lots of other things. We could re-sign Smart and trade him next summer, and then re-sign Rozier, for example.
plus what’s the point of trading for a middle of the pack draft pick ? I get having assets but we are beyond that point of asset collection, we have a good amount of draft picks remaining that we don’t even know what to do with. Roll with rozier and see what happens

I get this sentiment, im just not sure keeping Rozier makes all thay much difference in a title run, hes not gonna be a starter, closer, sixth man, and he will likely be what the fifth option at best? If you can get a long term big man to replace Horford for Rozier than do it. Chicago at 7, New York at 9 strikes ne as teams that wont want to wait and could use a shooting point. Somebody like Bamba or Carter will slip there. Im all foraximizing winning, but I also want to see a long term dynasty and replacibg Horford is a big part of that.
you don’t see how being an insurance policy for kyrie is a good thing? How many healthy seasons has kyrie had? If we want a serious title run, we need serious insurance

Danny will have a good idea of Kyrie's health while we'll mostly be in the dark.  If Kyrie's prognosis isn't great, then we should keep Rozier, but if the doctors say he should be fine, then I think it would be a good idea to trade him assuming we get what we're looking for in return.

Rozier isn't going to take minutes from Kyrie.  Brown will be the starting shooting guard.  They'll both play around 32 minutes a game leaving another 32 minutes.  Hayward can play some shooting guard and Smart is a better court mate for Irving than Rozier for defensive reasons.  I don't see Rozier getting much more than 15 minutes a game.  Come the playoffs, Irving and Brown will get closer to 40 minutes a game. 

How will Rozier react if his minutes are drastically cut after his recent performance?  I doubt he'd be happy.  He has certainly earned the right to start or at least get around 30 minutes a game for us or another team.  I say trade him if the doctors give Kyrie a good prognosis.  If he gets hurt, Smart will be the primary ball handler which will be much easier to deal with with Hayward back since he can handle the ball and run the offense as well.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: The Oracle on May 16, 2018, 06:39:47 PM
If the shoe was on the other foot I doubt any of you would be wanting to trade the 6th pick in this draft for Rozier, whether the C's needed a PG or not.  A chance at an elite talent in the top 6 in this draft is worth far, far more than an undersized, average at best starting point guard in the last year of his contract.  Any GM should be fired on the spot for even suggesting such trade with the talent level that is obtainable with that pick.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: Sophomore on May 16, 2018, 06:56:44 PM
If the shoe was on the other foot I doubt any of you would be wanting to trade the 6th pick in this draft for Rozier, whether the C's needed a PG or not.  A chance at an elite talent in the top 6 in this draft is worth far, far more than an undersized, average at best starting point guard in the last year of his contract.  Any GM should be fired on the spot for even suggesting such trade with the talent level that is obtainable with that pick.

It depends on context. Look at Orlando. They have Gordon, Isaac, Fournier. Some raw young talent with a lot of upside but no real accomplishment to speak of and a few years of learning bad habits in a losing program. Do they want to pick a PG in the draft at 6 and see if he turns into something 2-3 years from now?  What if, instead, they could add a PG who has learned from Kyrie, with excellent physical talent. Someone who's proven he can get an efficient 15-5-5 in the playoffs with very low turnovers, plays solid defense, mentally tough competitor who wants to win and knows how. That guy makes sense for your timeline, fills a position of need, and brings a badly needed infusion for your team culture. The Celtics would also throw in their late 1st, so you can still buy a lottery ticket and hope you also grab the next Donovan Mitchell or Tony Parker.

Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: bknova on May 16, 2018, 06:56:57 PM
Rather keep Rozier through next year to go all in for a title next year. Injuries happen, as we all know, and having Rozier around to be insurance to play a bigger role due to injury to another player, in a year you are going for it all, is huge. We can deal with either resigning him or sign and trading him after next year's playoffs.


Exactly. I feel like a lot of the Smart/Rozier talk around here is all-nothing, either we sign them long-term or let them go. But we could do lots of other things. We could re-sign Smart and trade him next summer, and then re-sign Rozier, for example.
plus what’s the point of trading for a middle of the pack draft pick ? I get having assets but we are beyond that point of asset collection, we have a good amount of draft picks remaining that we don’t even know what to do with. Roll with rozier and see what happens

The point is to get a player on a four year cost controlled rookie scale.  You can only really afford three max contracts. The rest of your team is rookie scale, vet minimums, and some mid cost guys.  We have three maxes, two are setup to expire as we have to hand out maxes to Brown and Tatum.  Those guys might come back for team friendly deals.  Hence you trade guys at max value, that you are not going to pay market rate, for rookie scale guys to maintain roster and cap flexibility. 

The ideal scenario is trade Terry for the 12th pick and grab a big or wing who can fill his role at a cheaper cap number for the next 4 years. Shrewd unemotional moves like this is how you build a long term contender.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: PhoSita on May 16, 2018, 06:58:23 PM
I love Scary Terry, but if I were another team I'd be extremely wary that Terry might be another Jae Crowder / Evan Turner in the sense of having a lot of value for Boston but not so much value to some other team.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: nickagneta on May 16, 2018, 07:02:40 PM
Rather keep Rozier through next year to go all in for a title next year. Injuries happen, as we all know, and having Rozier around to be insurance to play a bigger role due to injury to another player, in a year you are going for it all, is huge. We can deal with either resigning him or sign and trading him after next year's playoffs.


The only question there is whether he’ll accept his role for another year. He’s already called himself a starter. Does he go back to the bench for 65+ games next year heading into restricted free agency?

Quote
“I know in the future that I want to be a starter,” Rozier said, according to NBC Sports. “I’m going to be a starter. I came in. I played after Isaiah Thomas, and I’m playing after Kyrie (Irving) now, and that’s the only reason I don’t start. That’s how I’m looking at it. But I know I’ll be a starter in this league.

That was in December. He’s crushed it since then. Can we keep him (and his agent) happy?
Rozier has never shown any sign of being problematic about playing time, role, shots, or stats. He has been nothing but a team guy from the outset. I am sure he will know his role for next year, perform it to his best capabilities and be the team guy about it he has always been. Then if he wants to start as a player and wants to do it elsewhere, we can work something out in a sign and trade for him.

If he starts to become a problem behind the scenes over his role, then you trade him at the deadline. If not, Terry is definitely the type of player you want to have available to help win a title.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: cman88 on May 16, 2018, 07:46:11 PM
someone from Yahoo was on 98.5 and said he believes the celtics will hold onto Rozier for next year. If they are going for a championship next year, having Rozier makes them a better team and gives them more depth. I agree. maybe the value is less, but keep him for a run and then trade him in a sign and trade if need be.

Kyrie/Brown/Hayward/Tatum/Horford/Smart/Rozier/theis/Monroe/Baynes is a scary deep team that should run through the east.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: CELTICSofBOSTON on May 16, 2018, 07:48:07 PM
Rozier may be able to get us #9 from New York but we’d have to include our pick this year and probably another future pick.

I’m a huge Wendell Carter fan and think he will be there at #9.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: footey on May 16, 2018, 07:58:33 PM
I think #16 + #31 from Phoenix is more realistic, if they decided to take Ayton.

That's idiotic. So now that Rozier is a proven NBA baller, he's only worth the exact same slot at which he was selected plus a crappy 2nd rounder? While fans tend to over-project their draft picks, good GMs don't. They know the track record of draft positions. Lets do the same by looking at the last 15 guys selected at #16 (pre-Rozier):

Jusuf Nurkic
Lucas Nogueira
Royce White
Nikola Vucevic
Luke Babbitt
James Johnson
Marreese Speights
Nick Young
Rodney Carney
Joey Graham
Kirk Snyder
Troy Bell
Jiri Welch
Kirk Haston

That's a couple of good players, a couple of role players and a whole lot of busts. That's what is expected from that slot. GMs know this. They know a bird in hand is worth a lot more than two in the bush. At 17/5/5 - which is what Rozier has put up the last 1/2 of a season - and good defense Rozier could be considered the best out of that entire list. That's worth a HELLUVA lot more than the 16th pick. That's insulting.

In fact, let's look at the #6 picks in that same time frame:

Marcus Smart
Nerlens Noel
Damian Lillard
Jan Vesley
Ekpe Udoh
Jonny Flynn
Danilo Gallinari
Yi Jianlian
Brandon Roy
Martell Webster
Josh Childress
Chris Kaman
Dajuan Wagner
Shane Battier

Rozier is better than half of that list already and is a known quantity. So yeah, Rozier for the #6 pick isn't that far fetched when someone actually understands the danger of drafting and how many players outside of the top 5 bust.

And yet, when you look at history, you see guys like Eric Bledsoe, Jeff Teague and Reggie Jackson being traded for modest returns.  “Idiotic” or not, the market hasn’t shown much value for PGs lately.

None of those guys led their teams as point guard to NBA finals. If a Terry does, his value will go up. If we win championship, his value will skyrocket.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: footey on May 16, 2018, 08:00:09 PM
I just don’t see Terry being traded unless and until Kyrie proves to be 100%. That won’t be before start of next season.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: kgwannabe on May 16, 2018, 08:00:18 PM
I said over the weekend, Rozier for #12 to the Clippers (who also have #13). Take Zhaire Smith as someone to groom. The Clippers get better, increasing the likelihood of their pick going to us next year, while we take a high floor player (maybe Brunson) at #27.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: mef730 on May 16, 2018, 08:04:28 PM
I think we need to be in the top 4-5 in this draft if we're gonna trade up, and it will take Rozier plus the Sac pick to get there. I'm not interested. Well, unless Danny's interested. He seems to be pretty good at this GMing thing.

Mike
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: jambr380 on May 16, 2018, 09:03:13 PM
Rozier may be able to get us #9 from New York but we’d have to include our pick this year and probably another future pick.

I’m a huge Wendell Carter fan and think he will be there at #9.

The better we do in these playoffs, the more the writing is on the wall for Terry's future with the Cs. While I would absolutely love to keep him, I understand that there probably aren't enough minutes to keep him happy (unless of course we trade Kyrie). Getting the #8-10 pick and selecting Carter or even Porter would be a great way to turn Rozier into a positive asset.

I mentioned this a couple of weeks ago, but if we are dealing with Orlando, I wonder if a deal of Terry for Isaac would be of interest to both teams. We get a stretch big with a couple of extra years of control and ORL doesn't give up the potential with their unknown draft pick. Like it or not, most draft picks are like new cars - they cost way too much until they are driven off the lot. Picking up a guy like Isaac (#6 pick last year) is probably a lot more likely than the unknown #6 pick this year. If Orlando selects a big, that opens up the door even more.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: Eja117 on May 16, 2018, 09:14:54 PM
I don't think most GMs and coaches do that unless they are afraid that if they don't improve right now they'll be fired.

I don't Danny does this until he knows Kyrie is very healthy. He can trade him later.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: Boris Badenov on May 17, 2018, 06:28:20 PM
Rather keep Rozier through next year to go all in for a title next year. Injuries happen, as we all know, and having Rozier around to be insurance to play a bigger role due to injury to another player, in a year you are going for it all, is huge. We can deal with either resigning him or sign and trading him after next year's playoffs.


Exactly. I feel like a lot of the Smart/Rozier talk around here is all-nothing, either we sign them long-term or let them go. But we could do lots of other things. We could re-sign Smart and trade him next summer, and then re-sign Rozier, for example.
plus what’s the point of trading for a middle of the pack draft pick ? I get having assets but we are beyond that point of asset collection, we have a good amount of draft picks remaining that we don’t even know what to do with. Roll with rozier and see what happens

The point of trading Rozier for a "middle of the pack" draft pick is that in all likelihood 2 of 3 of Bamba, Jackson, Carter will be available with the 6th pick. All project highly as versatile bigs. I got news for you people - Al Horford is going to be 32 years old. Whose replacing him on the front line? Does Daniel Theis all of a sudden become an all nba player? Best to get someone in here using an asset in Rozier -which we probably have for a year more at best- so that we can have someone good over the height of 6 foot 9 on the roster, because despite recent trends size is still important in the pros.

This would make more sense if we didn't have all the picks we have. Horford's not in decline yet, and we have as many as 4 first rounders next year, including one that could be a top 5 pick.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: keevsnick on May 17, 2018, 06:59:59 PM
Rather keep Rozier through next year to go all in for a title next year. Injuries happen, as we all know, and having Rozier around to be insurance to play a bigger role due to injury to another player, in a year you are going for it all, is huge. We can deal with either resigning him or sign and trading him after next year's playoffs.


Exactly. I feel like a lot of the Smart/Rozier talk around here is all-nothing, either we sign them long-term or let them go. But we could do lots of other things. We could re-sign Smart and trade him next summer, and then re-sign Rozier, for example.
plus what’s the point of trading for a middle of the pack draft pick ? I get having assets but we are beyond that point of asset collection, we have a good amount of draft picks remaining that we don’t even know what to do with. Roll with rozier and see what happens

The point of trading Rozier for a "middle of the pack" draft pick is that in all likelihood 2 of 3 of Bamba, Jackson, Carter will be available with the 6th pick. All project highly as versatile bigs. I got news for you people - Al Horford is going to be 32 years old. Whose replacing him on the front line? Does Daniel Theis all of a sudden become an all nba player? Best to get someone in here using an asset in Rozier -which we probably have for a year more at best- so that we can have someone good over the height of 6 foot 9 on the roster, because despite recent trends size is still important in the pros.

This would make more sense if we didn't have all the picks we have. Horford's not in decline yet, and we have as many as 4 first rounders next year, including one that could be a top 5 pick.

Ya but that doesnt matter if their aren't any bigs worthy of a high pick. This draft is seen a such stronger big man wise than 2019.  Of course hard to tell for sure a year out.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: CelticsElite on May 17, 2018, 07:11:32 PM
Rather keep Rozier through next year to go all in for a title next year. Injuries happen, as we all know, and having Rozier around to be insurance to play a bigger role due to injury to another player, in a year you are going for it all, is huge. We can deal with either resigning him or sign and trading him after next year's playoffs.


Exactly. I feel like a lot of the Smart/Rozier talk around here is all-nothing, either we sign them long-term or let them go. But we could do lots of other things. We could re-sign Smart and trade him next summer, and then re-sign Rozier, for example.
plus what’s the point of trading for a middle of the pack draft pick ? I get having assets but we are beyond that point of asset collection, we have a good amount of draft picks remaining that we don’t even know what to do with. Roll with rozier and see what happens

The point of trading Rozier for a "middle of the pack" draft pick is that in all likelihood 2 of 3 of Bamba, Jackson, Carter will be available with the 6th pick. All project highly as versatile bigs. I got news for you people - Al Horford is going to be 32 years old. Whose replacing him on the front line? Does Daniel Theis all of a sudden become an all nba player? Best to get someone in here using an asset in Rozier -which we probably have for a year more at best- so that we can have someone good over the height of 6 foot 9 on the roster, because despite recent trends size is still important in the pros.

This would make more sense if we didn't have all the picks we have. Horford's not in decline yet, and we have as many as 4 first rounders next year, including one that could be a top 5 pick.

Ya but that doesnt matter if their aren't any bigs worthy of a high pick. This draft is seen a such stronger big man wise than 2019.  Of course hard to tell for sure a year out.
I don't get the obsession with big men. They are hardest to develop and bigger bust potential

I'd rather replace horford with a free agent when the time comes
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: tonydelk on May 17, 2018, 07:22:17 PM
Why would a team not pay good value for Rozier.  Any team needing a PG will offer him a large contract.  If you don't think anyone will then why wouldn't the CS just resign him for a cheap contract.  I think he and the 27 pick is worth the 6 pick easy.   He's putting up allstar numbers in the playoffs against the best competition in the world.  He's improved every year is young and the team who trades for him gets his bird rights and can match any contract he signs.  Big value there.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: vjcsmoke on May 18, 2018, 09:29:23 PM
The #12 pick is usually a garbage player 8/10 times though.  So what's the point?

Number 12 Overall Picks:

2017 Luke Kennard, Duke – Detroit Pistons
2016 Taurean Prince, Baylor – Utah Jazz
2015 Trey Lyles, Kentucky – Utah Jazz
2014 Dario Saric, Croatia – Orlando Magic
2013 Steven Adams, Pittsburgh – Oklahoma City Thunder
2012 Jeremy Lamb, Connecticut – Houston Rockets
2011 Alec Burks, Colorado – Utah Jazz
2010 Xavier Henry, Kansas – Memphis Grizzlies


We know that Terry can play on this roster and perform in the playoffs.

Terry has 2 more years on his contract.  We don't need to make a move until next year.

Next year we can challenge for the title if we get everybody back.

Until then we can afford to wait and only trade him if a great offer is made.  Or we could package him in a bigger deal as a sweetner.
Title: Re: Rozier + 27th for 6th. Fair deal?
Post by: mr. dee on May 18, 2018, 09:51:45 PM
You trade player with a peak value for a future draft picks with unknown projection. That's what Red and Danny were doing in the past.  No GMs would trade their with lottery ticket for anything less than a return lottery pick, promising young prospect, all-star player or close to it. That's why Danny asked for 2019-22 MEM/LAC pick instead of 2015-2018 pick.