Author Topic: Brad Stevens is not an elite coach  (Read 7822 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Brad Stevens is not an elite coach
« Reply #60 on: March 19, 2019, 10:21:01 AM »

Offline PhoSita

  • NCE
  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21835
  • Tommy Points: 2182
I think it's fair to say Brad is a defensive coach first and foremost. 

The offense his teams run prize open jumpshots, especially threes.  The offense does a pretty good job of creating that type of shot, as well.  That's nice, but the Celtics offenses under Brad lack an interior emphasis and for whatever reason they are consistently one of the worst teams in the league at generating free throws. 

Part of having a great offense is having an offense that is consistent. To have a consistent and reliable offense you need to have options you can fall back on when jumpers inevitably stop going in. An offense that can get really hot but is also prone to long cold stretches can't really be called "great."  Even a great offense can completely collapse if they have no reliable recourse when the jumpers stop falling (see: Houston last year).


I would say that for the Celts to be a truly elite team under Brad, they need to double down on being a great defensive team, and make sure to always have 1-2 elite individual scorers who can make things happen on their own in the 4th quarter.

Trick is making sure that the game stays close into the final minutes against the best opponents.


This year the defense is solid but they're prone to giving up big runs and the offense just isn't consistent enough or good enough to overcome that a lot of the time.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Brad Stevens is not an elite coach
« Reply #61 on: March 19, 2019, 10:24:44 AM »

Offline Triplenickle

  • Al Horford
  • Posts: 410
  • Tommy Points: 30
I feel like there is enough evidence to support the thought that CBS is a mediocre offensive coach. There is nothing special about his philosophy on that side of the ball. He let’s anyone and everyone jack shots up.

It feels like he wants the C’s to mimic the the Spurs but that team can kill you with a thousand cuts. The majority of the time the C’s take the first lazy shot they can. When the 3’s are falling they look like a juggernaut but this team should be so much more than that. How do you preach ball movement then allow bigs to take 3’s early in the shot clock?

This ^^^ Been saying it all year.

The pecking order on this team is messed up. It's Kyrie and then anyone else. I'm just stunned at the way Tatum and Brown have been used this year. Kyrie will either take all the big shots or only pass to Horford.

Pretty much this. Kyrie should be #1 option AND as a decoy, then Al down low, then Tatum and Brown coming off picks as much as Reggie miller used to.

Then Smart with the pick and roll with EVERYONE as much as it's available, and push the ball as much as they can, because no one still seems like they can stop them in transition.

Re: Brad Stevens is not an elite coach
« Reply #62 on: March 19, 2019, 10:24:45 AM »

Offline smokeablount

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3103
  • Tommy Points: 628
  • Mark Blount often got smoked
I started questioning Brad a few months ago.  So way too late to be a true Brad hater, but right before the floodgates opened.

The good news?  He's already a great coach who has plenty of time to become elite and improve upon his flaws.  But he does have real flaws that have held this team, his first true contender, back this year.  And some people have their head in the sand.
2023 Non-Active / Non-NBA75 Fantasy Draft, ChiBulls:

PG: Deron Williams 07-08 / M.R. Richardson 80-81 / J. Wall 16-17
SG: David Thompson 77-78 / Hersey Hawkins 96-97
SF: Tracy McGrady 02-03 / Tayshaun Prince 06-07
PF: Larry Nance Sr 91-92 / Blake Griffin 13-14
C: Bob Lanier 76-77 / Brad Daugherty 92-93 / M. Camby 06-07

Re: Brad Stevens is not an elite coach
« Reply #63 on: March 19, 2019, 10:28:28 AM »

Offline Triplenickle

  • Al Horford
  • Posts: 410
  • Tommy Points: 30
I feel like there is enough evidence to support the thought that CBS is a mediocre offensive coach. There is nothing special about his philosophy on that side of the ball. He let’s anyone and everyone jack shots up.

It feels like he wants the C’s to mimic the the Spurs but that team can kill you with a thousand cuts. The majority of the time the C’s take the first lazy shot they can. When the 3’s are falling they look like a juggernaut but this team should be so much more than that. How do you preach ball movement then allow bigs to take 3’s early in the shot clock?

This ^^^ Been saying it all year.

The pecking order on this team is messed up. It's Kyrie and then anyone else. I'm just stunned at the way Tatum and Brown have been used this year. Kyrie will either take all the big shots or only pass to Horford.

Pretty much this. Kyrie should be #1 option AND as a decoy, then Al down low, then Tatum and Brown coming off picks as much as Reggie miller used to.

Then Smart with the pick and roll with EVERYONE as much as it's available, and push the ball as much as they can, because no one still seems like they can stop them in transition.

They really have the ability to overwhelm teams, so watching this along with the system is what frustrates me with Brad.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2019, 10:34:56 AM by Triplenickle »

Re: Brad Stevens is not an elite coach
« Reply #64 on: March 19, 2019, 10:29:58 AM »

Offline bdm860

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5952
  • Tommy Points: 4586
Let’s see what he does with the playoffs before making any declarations. I think with days off and time to gameplan opponents, he will excel.

This is where I'm at.

Disappointed in the regular season, but don't really care about the regular season.  As long as this team wins in the playoffs.

Sure, the crappy regular season isn't a good sign going into the playoffs, but I still have hope things will get done in the playoffs.  Last year the C's went 2-4 heading into the playoffs (including an 18 point shellacking by the Raptors), while the Sixers went 20-1 going into the 2nd round.

The year before, the C's finished out the season 3-2, which included a 23 point beat down by the Cavs, and started the playoffs 0-2.  Then turned things around.

Tougher East this year for sure, but I'll still believe until this team's been knocked out.  Down 0-3 in any playoff series, I'll still believe.  Drink the Kool-Aid with me now, I brought enough for everybody!


After 18 months with their Bigs, the Littles were: 46% less likely to use illegal drugs, 27% less likely to use alcohol, 52% less likely to skip school, 37% less likely to skip a class

Re: Brad Stevens is not an elite coach
« Reply #65 on: March 19, 2019, 10:44:19 AM »

Offline Donoghus

  • Global Moderator
  • Bill Russell
  • ******************************
  • Posts: 30939
  • Tommy Points: 1607
  • What a Pub Should Be
Also in the boat of waiting to see what happens come playoff time. 


2010 CB Historical Draft - Best Overall Team

Re: Brad Stevens is not an elite coach
« Reply #66 on: March 19, 2019, 10:56:44 AM »

Offline KGBirdBias

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1649
  • Tommy Points: 125
I'm ready to go back to another lineup. I think the team can handle a few changes and it will throw off any scouting playoff teams have done on the team.

I would go with
Kyrie
Brown
Tatum
Horford
Baynes

First 3 together off the bench - Hayward, Morris, Smart
Then Rozier subs for Kyrie

Then in the 2nd half you do the same thing up until the 6 min mark in the 4th.

Late 4th you play who has performed well for that game.

This way opponents never really know who will be closing games.

Re: Brad Stevens is not an elite coach
« Reply #67 on: March 19, 2019, 11:02:17 AM »

Offline tstorey_97

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3667
  • Tommy Points: 586
I don't know if it's time to "blame the coach."

Nothing for this team has been close to consistent.

This is not "Ainge's team"/ final exam.It just isn't.

Go ahead and list all of the title teams that were "built around a point guard" and ultimately, didn't have a front court.

Hey Brad, here's your team. Two back up centers + a power forward + a career bench small forward.

You can't judge him until you solve the front court problem. Today, if the Celtics go cold from three the party is over.

The Celtics are not a complete team Ainge is working on it and has been for ten years.

We are watching yet another transition version of the Celtics.

New squad next year with trades, draft etc.

In the grand scheme. Celtics are even with east except for Raptors and I don't see them beating, Denver, GSW, Rockets or even Spurs without home court in a seven game series.

The rebuild continues whether media thinks so or not.

I'm tired of waiting too.

Re: Brad Stevens is not an elite coach
« Reply #68 on: March 19, 2019, 11:10:21 AM »

Offline Triplenickle

  • Al Horford
  • Posts: 410
  • Tommy Points: 30
I'm ready to go back to another lineup. I think the team can handle a few changes and it will throw off any scouting playoff teams have done on the team.

I would go with
Kyrie
Brown
Tatum
Horford
Baynes

First 3 together off the bench - Hayward, Morris, Smart
Then Rozier subs for Kyrie

Then in the 2nd half you do the same thing up until the 6 min mark in the 4th.

Late 4th you play who has performed well for that game.

This way opponents never really know who will be closing games.

That's fair enough but I think Smart beside Kyrie has changed the team simply because Kyrie doesn't have to be a traditional point, and can use  his greatest strength...scoring.

And the fact Al should have a center by his side at all times to do the big work and take attention off him means somebody has to come off the bench who's really a starter...and those are JB, Hayward, and Morris.

Plus they need to stop with the small ball already. You do that to outquick a bigger opponent if you're small. We aren't really small anymore and Hayward and Morris aren't quick enough to get any benefits from that.

That's one reason the team looks confusing on the floor.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2019, 11:16:48 AM by Triplenickle »

Re: Brad Stevens is not an elite coach
« Reply #69 on: March 19, 2019, 11:13:00 AM »

Offline Big333223

  • NCE
  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7489
  • Tommy Points: 741
I'm not sure what criteria we would use to determine whether or not a coach is "elite" and I generally think that the way we judge coaches is really flawed but I do know that Brad Stevens has been the coach of this team for 6 years and they overachieved in 5 of those seasons and are underachieving for the first time.

I also know there was talk (that I don't agree with) about how other teams might be nervous about trading for Celtic players because everyone plays so well under Brad and then aren't the same elsewhere. Whatever you think of that logic, it speaks a great deal to how Stevens has been able to maximize the talent on his roster for the great majority of his tenure.

He's not perfect but the results, relative to the expectations and talent he's had to work with, have been overwhelmingly positive for his tenure. I'm not ready to throw him out after one disappointing season. Especially when we haven't even gotten to the playoffs yet.
1957, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1968, 1969, 1974, 1976, 1981, 1984, 1986, 2008

Re: Brad Stevens is not an elite coach
« Reply #70 on: March 19, 2019, 11:19:21 AM »

Offline KGBirdBias

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1649
  • Tommy Points: 125
I don't know if it's time to "blame the coach."

Nothing for this team has been close to consistent.

This is not "Ainge's team"/ final exam.It just isn't.

Go ahead and list all of the title teams that were "built around a point guard" and ultimately, didn't have a front court.

Hey Brad, here's your team. Two back up centers + a power forward + a career bench small forward.

You can't judge him until you solve the front court problem. Today, if the Celtics go cold from three the party is over.

The Celtics are not a complete team Ainge is working on it and has been for ten years.

We are watching yet another transition version of the Celtics.

New squad next year with trades, draft etc.

In the grand scheme. Celtics are even with east except for Raptors and I don't see them beating, Denver, GSW, Rockets or even Spurs without home court in a seven game series.

The rebuild continues whether media thinks so or not.

I'm tired of waiting too.

I agree with this. Last night showed me that we don't stay focused enough from possession to possession to beat the better teams. Something will really have to change during the playoffs. I wish we had upgraded our bench or played Williams more. I'm just not sure Horford, Baynes and Theis is enough if we are getting battered on the boards.

Re: Brad Stevens is not an elite coach
« Reply #71 on: March 19, 2019, 11:32:39 AM »

Offline Triplenickle

  • Al Horford
  • Posts: 410
  • Tommy Points: 30
I just hope Danny understands the reason this team wins more than not despite all the confusion this year is because of the core group of Kyrie, Al, Tatum, JB, and Smart. I would keep them together at all costs and Morris can be a real weapon off the bench, while Terry is the only ball-hawker this team has that's able to stay in front of an elite point guard.

If they understand that, I don't care what moves they make in the summer.

Re: Brad Stevens is not an elite coach
« Reply #72 on: March 19, 2019, 12:16:32 PM »

Offline PhoSita

  • NCE
  • Robert Parish
  • *********************
  • Posts: 21835
  • Tommy Points: 2182

This is not "Ainge's team"/ final exam.It just isn't.

Go ahead and list all of the title teams that were "built around a point guard" and ultimately, didn't have a front court.

Hey Brad, here's your team. Two back up centers + a power forward + a career bench small forward.

You can't judge him until you solve the front court problem. Today, if the Celtics go cold from three the party is over.



I agree that the weak frontcourt is a major issue.


I disagree that this "wasn't the plan."

Ainge has had his eye on Anthony Davis for a while, that's true.  But the plan was never to trade for him this year -- they actually couldn't trade for Davis this year, so the plan couldn't involve acquiring him yet.

Even so, I think the team also expected this mix of players to be in contention this year.  I think they made a point of overstuffing the roster with versatile wing players.  They undervalued big men.

Put simply, I think the Celtics wanted to build a team that could have a chance against the Warriors.  I think they actually did a decent job of that -- this team matches up pretty well with the Warriors.

The problem is that this team doesn't match up especially well with most of the other playoff teams in the league.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: Brad Stevens is not an elite coach
« Reply #73 on: March 19, 2019, 01:12:09 PM »

Offline angryguy77

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7187
  • Tommy Points: 590
Brad is the best coach we had since Bill Russell was the player-coach of this team. A Grandmaster that values process over results in the regular season. When someone says otherwise I suspect they don't know the geometric shape of the basketball.
What has he done to be worthy of such accolades?

Championships? No.

Historically good offence or defence? No.

Making players look better here than elsewhere? No. Before I get barked at for that, look at guys like KO, Crowder, ET & Avery Bradley. Name me one of those guys who looks worse than they did here. AB did in LA, but look at him in Memphis (and his brief Detroit stint).
What has he done to be worthy of such accolades?
He overachieved expectations in each one of his full seasons.
And because of this fact, he raised everyone's expectations to the maximum.
His end of games plays remind me of Mikhail Tals attacking imagination.

Championships? No.
With what roster was he supposed to win it all?
Please be realistic. He is 42, and he never had a title-winning talent on the team up to this point.

Historically good offence or defence? No.
We are 5th (Def.) and 8th (Off.), thats elite defense and a very good offense.
As a general rule when you are top 10 in both you have a fine chance for a deep playoff run.
That's enough for me. We were supposed to be a lottery team half of the time he is here, but he pulled out a 1. seed from a limited team.

Making players look better here than elsewhere? No. Before I get barked at for that, look at guys like KO, Crowder, ET & Avery Bradley. Name me one of those guys who looks worse than they did here. AB did in LA, but look at him in Memphis (and his brief Detroit stint).

It is impossible to argue otherwise than, all players Brad coached play their best basketball under his leadership.
All of the players you mentioned did that. I'll just add a few more; IT4 (remember his status before Brad), Morris, and even Kyrie. I excluded Gerald Wallaces, David Lees and Sullyies from this conversation. They were out of the league in a few months after they parted ways with him.

There has never been a player that breathed a bad word about Brad in his 6 years.
In general, we are talking about confrontational testosterone filled, competition-driven males, in their contract years. That alone reminds me of playing water polo with against crocodiles and sharks. A seemingly impossible task, still he just keeps everyone in the line. He doesn't stifle them, he doesn't intimidate them, he lets them be themselves and that is his way to make them all fall in the line. By seasons end (playoffs) they always are.

I think that he is so good, I could spend a year in a muddy trench under monsoon rain, defending his work stoically.

Overachieving on the NBA isn't impressive. It's especially not impressive in the East prior to this year. Half the league gets into the playoffs. We've been the ATL hawks of KG era. They get in the playoffs and get exposed buy the real contenders.

I've been on the hate train for 2 years now. I've seen enough playoff games thrown away due to the coach allowing his team to jack up poor shot after poor shot. No good coach allows a his team to shoot their chances away like he did in the ECF last year.

He sucks. The only way this team wins a title is due to having so much talent it carries him there. It won't be due to him coaching a title win.
Still don't believe in Joe.

Re: Brad Stevens is not an elite coach
« Reply #74 on: March 19, 2019, 01:53:07 PM »

Offline spikelovetheCelts

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1616
  • Tommy Points: 113
  • Peace it's a board. We all will never agree.
Burn this thread to the ground.


If Tatum hits at least 2 of his WIDE OPEN threes, this game has a different complexion. But god forbid anyone says something somewhat critical of a young guy. I know everyone wants Tatum to be special, but he's just not yet. He has flashes, but he's nowhere near doing it consistently.
What are you on about? The majority of this thread has been talking about Jaylen, whose recent performances have earned him the right to not play 20 minutes a game behind Morris and Smart imo.
This thread is about CBS being a good coach. We lost to the 2nd best team in the west without Heyward. Brown is an athelete trying to learn basketball. Tatum was not good last night. KI wants the ball at the end of the game. He has earned that right for this year. Heyward will be on the court in the last 2 minutes in the playoffs too. He can hit THE SHOT as well. Brown and Tatums time will come but that is next year on most night like last night. Coach has called some plays Smart and KI have changed some. He can coach we will see when he get 7 games.
"People look at players, watch them dribble between their legs and they say, 'There's a superstar.'  Well John Havlicek is a superstar, and most of the others are figments of writers' imagination."
--Jerry West, on John Havlicek