Poll

Who is the GOAT?

MJ
28 (56%)
LJ
5 (10%)
other
17 (34%)

Total Members Voted: 50

Author Topic: MJ vs LJ  (Read 11549 times)

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Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #90 on: June 09, 2018, 05:42:34 AM »

Offline Androslav

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I think MJ, like LeBron also did quit.
2 times after 3-peats.
The difference is that he never did it on the floor, he did it in press conferences.
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Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #91 on: June 09, 2018, 07:45:50 AM »

Offline Moranis

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I posted this on Reddit asking if the Cavs would still be in the Finals with prime Jordan in Lebron’s place.

Quote
Not arguing with Jordan's resume.  He was greatest ever.  They dominated their competition back then.  That said, Jordan has a losing record his first 3 seasons carrying a garbage team:

* 1984 age 21:  28 pts, 6 asts, 6.5 rbs, 2.4 stl - Bulls win 38 games
* 1985 age 22:  Jordan only plays 18 games.  Bulls win 30 games
* 1986 age 23:  37.1 pts, 4.6 asts, 5.2 rbs, 2.9 sl  - Bulls win 40 games

Not until 1987 and the arrival of Scottie Pippen did the Bulls win 50 games. 

Pippen always gets overlooked.  The biggest argument in favor of Pippen is that in 1993 during Title #3 for the Bulls, they won 57 games.   Jordan "retires" and the very next season (without Jordan), Pippen carries the Bulls to 55 wins and the second round.  Pippen's averages that season:  22 points, 5.6 assists, 8.7 rebounds, 2.9 steals

So FWIW, Jordan never won 50+ games without Pippen, but Pippen won 50+ games with Jordan.

Consider LeBron's performance when the same age as Jordan's first 3 seasons (in which Jordan finished below .500 every year).   

* 2006 Age 21:  31.4 pts, 6.6 asts, 7 rbs, 1.6 stl. - Cavs win 50
* 2007 age 22:  27.3 pts, 6 ast, 6.7 rbs, 1.6 st.  - Cavs win 50 and make Finals
* 2008 age 23:  30 pts, 7.2 ast, 7.9 rbs, 1.8 stl - Cavs win 45

Jordan finally cracked 50 wins at age 24 during Pippen's rookie season.  At age 24, LeBron won 66 games alongside Mo Williams.

History aside, how do you think this Cavs team plays with prime Jordan in LeBron's spot?  Is he easier to defend?  Harder?  Jordan is significantly smaller than LeBron, doesn't have the same shooting range, and doesnt get his teammates involved as much.  Do they still sweep the Raptors and get through the length of the Celtics? 

Jordan's mid-range shooting in his prime was incredible.  Athletically he was a marvel.  One of the fiercest competitors the league will ever see.  Was he more athletic than LeBron, though?  Does the mid-range shooting offer him that much of an advantage considering the length of defenses like the Celtics?  Is he that much more of a competitor than LeBron? Explain to me why prime Jordan would do a better job carrying this team.

Honest question.  How does it play out?  Don't just say "Obviously cuz Jordan is the greatest"... give me some real reasons.  LeBron got through the Celtics with his size, strength and range.  How does Jordan beat them? 

Everyone just responded “yes jordan would make the finals”.  No actual analysis. It’s lazy.  The Paul Bunyaning of Jordan.  Listen, I saw prime Kobe try to carry teams like this Cavs squad and end up winning 35 games and missing the playoffs.  Granted, prime Kobe was like 60-70% the player jordan was, but it’s food for thought.   Lebron is somehow very underrated.  Consider context when dismissing Lebron losses.  Jordan wasn’t going against a juggernaut stacked with 4 all-nba players (three of the greatest shooters of all time on one team). Instead Jordan was going against mortal pairs like Malone/Stockton or Payton/Kemp - while playing alongside a top 50 player (Pippen) who only saw his team lose 2 less games (57 to 55) when Jordan retired.

Meh, people talked about Love like he was a superstar (even on these forums) and now act like he is complete chopped liver even though he is in his absolute prime at 29 and was an all-star this year. George Hill, Rodney Hood, and Korver have all been really high level role players or in hill's case, an above average starter for many years. Lebron completely dominates their system and we are now meant to believe all these other players are complete crap all of a sudden? I personally think the Lebron has no help narrative is the lazy one.

They have way more talent than the celtics without irving or hayward, but limped by us and people act like it was some herculean effort by Lebron carrying scrubs. 1) They are not scrubs, 2) if he is the best ever he should be able to beat a team led by a rookie and second year player and lifetime role players playing with me you and moranis.
This year in the ECF, Boston had 6 of the top 8 or 7 of the top 9 players in the series.  I think you would be hard pressed to argue that Hill, Korver, etc. were better than Horford, Tatum, Brown, Rozier, Morris, or Smart.  I think you could realistically argue Baynes is also better than those players.  Obviously James was by the far best player in that series and frankly Love might have been the 2nd best, but 3 to 15 the Celtics were far more talented and better across the board and it wasn't close.

Moranis, you got some cajones even making that argument after your barrage of posts talking how great the guys they got at the deadline were. I don't have any interest in arguing you with you on your 180's but I can pull up some posts from 4 months ago that would make this new take pretty embarrassing for you.

Here is one from March: "They have better individual defenders this year then they did last year and they entered last year playing as a bottom 3 defense for the entire second half of the year before turning it on in the playoffs and finishing as a top 3 defense in the playoffs.  Obviously, they will miss Irving's scoring and ability to take games over, but Hill is a better defender and better 3 point shooter than Irving (Irving is obviously a much much better player).  Instead of Smith, Shumpert, and Deron Williams, they will have Hood, Smith, and Clarkson, which is a much better 3 some on both ends of the floor.  Korver is Korver and Thompson is Thompson, though Thompson will get far less minutes this year and will come off the bench rather than start.  They will replace Frye and R. Jefferson with Green and Nance.  They have guys like Osman and Zizic on the deep bench instead of Derrick Williams, James Jones, and Dahntay Jones.

In other words, defensively they have the potential to be far better then they were last year, when they were blowing teams out in the East and a top 3 defensive team in the playoffs. "

So they were potentially better than last year despite losing Irving, but 3 months later they are all worse than Smart, Rozier, Morris and potentially baynes? I mean... what the...
they were better defensively then they were last year.  Glad to see your consistently bringing up prior statements, act like they are inconsistent, and then claim I'm flip flopping when I'm not still hasn't changed. I'm beginning to think English is not your native language.  The Cavs in the playoffs were a better defensive team then the Cavs from the playoffs last year.  That is what I said in March and that is what these playoffs showed to be true.
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Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #92 on: June 09, 2018, 06:23:58 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Think about this for a moment on every team he ever played Jordan was the alpha male in the clutch moments, LeBron has Kyrie hit the winning shot in CLE, Bosh hit one in MIA, he deferred to these guys when it mattered most.   MJ never did that.

For the record, I dislike both of these guys because they are not Celtics.   I strongly dislike LeBron and I strongly dislike Jordan.   Both are great player, though, but I don't care for them because they are not Celtics.  I think Jordan is the better of the two and I had to win a game with my life on the line I am choosing MJ.  If I had to pick a guy to get a triple double it would be LeBron.

Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #93 on: June 09, 2018, 06:42:45 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Think about this for a moment on every team he ever played Jordan was the alpha male in the clutch moments, LeBron has Kyrie hit the winning shot in CLE, Bosh hit one in MIA, he deferred to these guys when it mattered most.   MJ never did that.

For the record, I dislike both of these guys because they are not Celtics.   I strongly dislike LeBron and I strongly dislike Jordan.   Both are great player, though, but I don't care for them because they are not Celtics.  I think Jordan is the better of the two and I had to win a game with my life on the line I am choosing MJ.  If I had to pick a guy to get a triple double it would be LeBron.
TP...exactly the way I feel.

Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #94 on: June 09, 2018, 09:37:12 PM »

Offline TheTruthFot18

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Wait, who is getting 30%+ vote for other besides MJ or Lebron?
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Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #95 on: June 09, 2018, 10:19:13 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Wait, who is getting 30%+ vote for other besides MJ or Lebron?
Bill, Kareem, Wilt are probably some. Bird and Magic too.

I'd have all those guys before LeBron
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PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #96 on: June 09, 2018, 10:25:48 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Wait, who is getting 30%+ vote for other besides MJ or Lebron?
Bill, Kareem, Wilt are probably some. Bird and Magic too.

I'd have all those guys before LeBron

11 titles in 13 seasons
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1 Gold medal
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Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #97 on: June 09, 2018, 10:26:32 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Wait, who is getting 30%+ vote for other besides MJ or Lebron?
Bill, Kareem, Wilt are probably some. Bird and Magic too.

I'd have all those guys before LeBron
Hit the nail right on the head for me. I have MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Bird and Magic all ahead of Lebron on my best of all time list.

Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #98 on: June 09, 2018, 10:26:39 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Wait, who is getting 30%+ vote for other besides MJ or Lebron?
Bill, Kareem, Wilt are probably some. Bird and Magic too.

I'd have all those guys before LeBron

11 titles in 13 seasons
2 NCAA championships
1 Gold medal
G.O.A.T.
His trophy cabinet is probably bigger than my house
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #99 on: June 10, 2018, 05:26:39 PM »

Offline OHCeltic

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Bill Russell

Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #100 on: June 11, 2018, 02:14:48 AM »

Online celticsclay

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I posted this on Reddit asking if the Cavs would still be in the Finals with prime Jordan in Lebron’s place.

Quote
Not arguing with Jordan's resume.  He was greatest ever.  They dominated their competition back then.  That said, Jordan has a losing record his first 3 seasons carrying a garbage team:

* 1984 age 21:  28 pts, 6 asts, 6.5 rbs, 2.4 stl - Bulls win 38 games
* 1985 age 22:  Jordan only plays 18 games.  Bulls win 30 games
* 1986 age 23:  37.1 pts, 4.6 asts, 5.2 rbs, 2.9 sl  - Bulls win 40 games

Not until 1987 and the arrival of Scottie Pippen did the Bulls win 50 games. 

Pippen always gets overlooked.  The biggest argument in favor of Pippen is that in 1993 during Title #3 for the Bulls, they won 57 games.   Jordan "retires" and the very next season (without Jordan), Pippen carries the Bulls to 55 wins and the second round.  Pippen's averages that season:  22 points, 5.6 assists, 8.7 rebounds, 2.9 steals

So FWIW, Jordan never won 50+ games without Pippen, but Pippen won 50+ games with Jordan.

Consider LeBron's performance when the same age as Jordan's first 3 seasons (in which Jordan finished below .500 every year).   

* 2006 Age 21:  31.4 pts, 6.6 asts, 7 rbs, 1.6 stl. - Cavs win 50
* 2007 age 22:  27.3 pts, 6 ast, 6.7 rbs, 1.6 st.  - Cavs win 50 and make Finals
* 2008 age 23:  30 pts, 7.2 ast, 7.9 rbs, 1.8 stl - Cavs win 45

Jordan finally cracked 50 wins at age 24 during Pippen's rookie season.  At age 24, LeBron won 66 games alongside Mo Williams.

History aside, how do you think this Cavs team plays with prime Jordan in LeBron's spot?  Is he easier to defend?  Harder?  Jordan is significantly smaller than LeBron, doesn't have the same shooting range, and doesnt get his teammates involved as much.  Do they still sweep the Raptors and get through the length of the Celtics? 

Jordan's mid-range shooting in his prime was incredible.  Athletically he was a marvel.  One of the fiercest competitors the league will ever see.  Was he more athletic than LeBron, though?  Does the mid-range shooting offer him that much of an advantage considering the length of defenses like the Celtics?  Is he that much more of a competitor than LeBron? Explain to me why prime Jordan would do a better job carrying this team.

Honest question.  How does it play out?  Don't just say "Obviously cuz Jordan is the greatest"... give me some real reasons.  LeBron got through the Celtics with his size, strength and range.  How does Jordan beat them? 

Everyone just responded “yes jordan would make the finals”.  No actual analysis. It’s lazy.  The Paul Bunyaning of Jordan.  Listen, I saw prime Kobe try to carry teams like this Cavs squad and end up winning 35 games and missing the playoffs.  Granted, prime Kobe was like 60-70% the player jordan was, but it’s food for thought.   Lebron is somehow very underrated.  Consider context when dismissing Lebron losses.  Jordan wasn’t going against a juggernaut stacked with 4 all-nba players (three of the greatest shooters of all time on one team). Instead Jordan was going against mortal pairs like Malone/Stockton or Payton/Kemp - while playing alongside a top 50 player (Pippen) who only saw his team lose 2 less games (57 to 55) when Jordan retired.

Meh, people talked about Love like he was a superstar (even on these forums) and now act like he is complete chopped liver even though he is in his absolute prime at 29 and was an all-star this year. George Hill, Rodney Hood, and Korver have all been really high level role players or in hill's case, an above average starter for many years. Lebron completely dominates their system and we are now meant to believe all these other players are complete crap all of a sudden? I personally think the Lebron has no help narrative is the lazy one.

They have way more talent than the celtics without irving or hayward, but limped by us and people act like it was some herculean effort by Lebron carrying scrubs. 1) They are not scrubs, 2) if he is the best ever he should be able to beat a team led by a rookie and second year player and lifetime role players playing with me you and moranis.
This year in the ECF, Boston had 6 of the top 8 or 7 of the top 9 players in the series.  I think you would be hard pressed to argue that Hill, Korver, etc. were better than Horford, Tatum, Brown, Rozier, Morris, or Smart.  I think you could realistically argue Baynes is also better than those players.  Obviously James was by the far best player in that series and frankly Love might have been the 2nd best, but 3 to 15 the Celtics were far more talented and better across the board and it wasn't close.

Moranis, you got some cajones even making that argument after your barrage of posts talking how great the guys they got at the deadline were. I don't have any interest in arguing you with you on your 180's but I can pull up some posts from 4 months ago that would make this new take pretty embarrassing for you.

Here is one from March: "They have better individual defenders this year then they did last year and they entered last year playing as a bottom 3 defense for the entire second half of the year before turning it on in the playoffs and finishing as a top 3 defense in the playoffs.  Obviously, they will miss Irving's scoring and ability to take games over, but Hill is a better defender and better 3 point shooter than Irving (Irving is obviously a much much better player).  Instead of Smith, Shumpert, and Deron Williams, they will have Hood, Smith, and Clarkson, which is a much better 3 some on both ends of the floor.  Korver is Korver and Thompson is Thompson, though Thompson will get far less minutes this year and will come off the bench rather than start.  They will replace Frye and R. Jefferson with Green and Nance.  They have guys like Osman and Zizic on the deep bench instead of Derrick Williams, James Jones, and Dahntay Jones.

In other words, defensively they have the potential to be far better then they were last year, when they were blowing teams out in the East and a top 3 defensive team in the playoffs. "

So they were potentially better than last year despite losing Irving, but 3 months later they are all worse than Smart, Rozier, Morris and potentially baynes? I mean... what the...
they were better defensively then they were last year.  Glad to see your consistently bringing up prior statements, act like they are inconsistent, and then claim I'm flip flopping when I'm not still hasn't changed. I'm beginning to think English is not your native language.  The Cavs in the playoffs were a better defensive team then the Cavs from the playoffs last year.  That is what I said in March and that is what these playoffs showed to be true.

You know it's ok to say "hey that was a bad take". Honestly I would just be embarrassed at this point. And thanks for the pms guys, I get it

Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #101 on: June 11, 2018, 12:09:49 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I posted this on Reddit asking if the Cavs would still be in the Finals with prime Jordan in Lebron’s place.

Quote
Not arguing with Jordan's resume.  He was greatest ever.  They dominated their competition back then.  That said, Jordan has a losing record his first 3 seasons carrying a garbage team:

* 1984 age 21:  28 pts, 6 asts, 6.5 rbs, 2.4 stl - Bulls win 38 games
* 1985 age 22:  Jordan only plays 18 games.  Bulls win 30 games
* 1986 age 23:  37.1 pts, 4.6 asts, 5.2 rbs, 2.9 sl  - Bulls win 40 games

Not until 1987 and the arrival of Scottie Pippen did the Bulls win 50 games. 

Pippen always gets overlooked.  The biggest argument in favor of Pippen is that in 1993 during Title #3 for the Bulls, they won 57 games.   Jordan "retires" and the very next season (without Jordan), Pippen carries the Bulls to 55 wins and the second round.  Pippen's averages that season:  22 points, 5.6 assists, 8.7 rebounds, 2.9 steals

So FWIW, Jordan never won 50+ games without Pippen, but Pippen won 50+ games with Jordan.

Consider LeBron's performance when the same age as Jordan's first 3 seasons (in which Jordan finished below .500 every year).   

* 2006 Age 21:  31.4 pts, 6.6 asts, 7 rbs, 1.6 stl. - Cavs win 50
* 2007 age 22:  27.3 pts, 6 ast, 6.7 rbs, 1.6 st.  - Cavs win 50 and make Finals
* 2008 age 23:  30 pts, 7.2 ast, 7.9 rbs, 1.8 stl - Cavs win 45

Jordan finally cracked 50 wins at age 24 during Pippen's rookie season.  At age 24, LeBron won 66 games alongside Mo Williams.

History aside, how do you think this Cavs team plays with prime Jordan in LeBron's spot?  Is he easier to defend?  Harder?  Jordan is significantly smaller than LeBron, doesn't have the same shooting range, and doesnt get his teammates involved as much.  Do they still sweep the Raptors and get through the length of the Celtics? 

Jordan's mid-range shooting in his prime was incredible.  Athletically he was a marvel.  One of the fiercest competitors the league will ever see.  Was he more athletic than LeBron, though?  Does the mid-range shooting offer him that much of an advantage considering the length of defenses like the Celtics?  Is he that much more of a competitor than LeBron? Explain to me why prime Jordan would do a better job carrying this team.

Honest question.  How does it play out?  Don't just say "Obviously cuz Jordan is the greatest"... give me some real reasons.  LeBron got through the Celtics with his size, strength and range.  How does Jordan beat them? 

Everyone just responded “yes jordan would make the finals”.  No actual analysis. It’s lazy.  The Paul Bunyaning of Jordan.  Listen, I saw prime Kobe try to carry teams like this Cavs squad and end up winning 35 games and missing the playoffs.  Granted, prime Kobe was like 60-70% the player jordan was, but it’s food for thought.   Lebron is somehow very underrated.  Consider context when dismissing Lebron losses.  Jordan wasn’t going against a juggernaut stacked with 4 all-nba players (three of the greatest shooters of all time on one team). Instead Jordan was going against mortal pairs like Malone/Stockton or Payton/Kemp - while playing alongside a top 50 player (Pippen) who only saw his team lose 2 less games (57 to 55) when Jordan retired.

Meh, people talked about Love like he was a superstar (even on these forums) and now act like he is complete chopped liver even though he is in his absolute prime at 29 and was an all-star this year. George Hill, Rodney Hood, and Korver have all been really high level role players or in hill's case, an above average starter for many years. Lebron completely dominates their system and we are now meant to believe all these other players are complete crap all of a sudden? I personally think the Lebron has no help narrative is the lazy one.

They have way more talent than the celtics without irving or hayward, but limped by us and people act like it was some herculean effort by Lebron carrying scrubs. 1) They are not scrubs, 2) if he is the best ever he should be able to beat a team led by a rookie and second year player and lifetime role players playing with me you and moranis.
This year in the ECF, Boston had 6 of the top 8 or 7 of the top 9 players in the series.  I think you would be hard pressed to argue that Hill, Korver, etc. were better than Horford, Tatum, Brown, Rozier, Morris, or Smart.  I think you could realistically argue Baynes is also better than those players.  Obviously James was by the far best player in that series and frankly Love might have been the 2nd best, but 3 to 15 the Celtics were far more talented and better across the board and it wasn't close.

Moranis, you got some cajones even making that argument after your barrage of posts talking how great the guys they got at the deadline were. I don't have any interest in arguing you with you on your 180's but I can pull up some posts from 4 months ago that would make this new take pretty embarrassing for you.

Here is one from March: "They have better individual defenders this year then they did last year and they entered last year playing as a bottom 3 defense for the entire second half of the year before turning it on in the playoffs and finishing as a top 3 defense in the playoffs.  Obviously, they will miss Irving's scoring and ability to take games over, but Hill is a better defender and better 3 point shooter than Irving (Irving is obviously a much much better player).  Instead of Smith, Shumpert, and Deron Williams, they will have Hood, Smith, and Clarkson, which is a much better 3 some on both ends of the floor.  Korver is Korver and Thompson is Thompson, though Thompson will get far less minutes this year and will come off the bench rather than start.  They will replace Frye and R. Jefferson with Green and Nance.  They have guys like Osman and Zizic on the deep bench instead of Derrick Williams, James Jones, and Dahntay Jones.

In other words, defensively they have the potential to be far better then they were last year, when they were blowing teams out in the East and a top 3 defensive team in the playoffs. "

So they were potentially better than last year despite losing Irving, but 3 months later they are all worse than Smart, Rozier, Morris and potentially baynes? I mean... what the...
they were better defensively then they were last year.  Glad to see your consistently bringing up prior statements, act like they are inconsistent, and then claim I'm flip flopping when I'm not still hasn't changed. I'm beginning to think English is not your native language.  The Cavs in the playoffs were a better defensive team then the Cavs from the playoffs last year.  That is what I said in March and that is what these playoffs showed to be true.

You know it's ok to say "hey that was a bad take". Honestly I would just be embarrassed at this point. And thanks for the pms guys, I get it
So is it your opinion they weren't a better defensive team this year as opposed to last year?  Because that is what I said in March, and I maintain they were in fact a better defensive team. 
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Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #102 on: June 11, 2018, 07:04:40 PM »

Offline Big333223

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I think MJ, like LeBron also did quit.
2 times after 3-peats.
The difference is that he never did it on the floor, he did it in press conferences.

It is interesting to think about what our culture today would do with Jordan retiring at age 29. Someone just started a thread calling Durant a "quitter" because he said he would "only" play 5 more years. What would twitter say about MJ leaving to play baseball?
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Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #103 on: June 11, 2018, 07:09:59 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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I bought the FIRST issue of AIr Jordons ......I was dirt poor then and could not afford gas , and food , but I bought that 100.00 pair of sneakers .  ......

Mr Jordon was TWICE the player of Lewhiner ......

Maybe ke played hard .....he never quit even if his team was down 30 and he was hurt .   He was too proud NOT to do his best .

Lebron crys and wants sympathy for his hand with cast .....please no Le whiner on Celtics

I would not take a free pair of Lebrick sneakers as a gift.

Re: MJ vs LJ
« Reply #104 on: June 12, 2018, 05:27:13 AM »

Offline Androslav

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I think MJ, like LeBron also did quit.
2 times after 3-peats.
The difference is that he never did it on the floor, he did it in press conferences.

It is interesting to think about what our culture today would do with Jordan retiring at age 29. Someone just started a thread calling Durant a "quitter" because he said he would "only" play 5 more years. What would twitter say about MJ leaving to play baseball?
True, interesting stuff. I am not judgemental.
Fans factor in just basketball related tangent, when players are actually much more layered individuals.
I remember Kevin Johnson retiring reletively young saying "I want to be able to run with my kids", Jordans father was murdered, and who knows what KD has on his mind right now.

I wrote Mike quit twice, but I don't mean it in a venomous way. Sometimes, the pressure is just too much for humans to bare. 29 is ridiculously young. It is like a Zeus himself sitting on mount Olymp, stripping himself of his own god powers. Unthinkable for whatever era.
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