Author Topic: Horford free agency thread: Possibly leaving: Page 10  (Read 48257 times)

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Re: Al Horford not exercising his player option
« Reply #120 on: June 18, 2019, 01:09:42 PM »

Offline droopdog7

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The Celts are probably a lottery team without Al, so hopefully he comes back at a reasonable figure.

All the reporting sounds pretty positive in that regard though.

They're not a contender with him at this point either.

Results are the same regardless.
If you think a lottery team and a second round playoff team with a puncher chance are the same I am not sure what to say.

Re: Al Horford not exercising his player option
« Reply #121 on: June 18, 2019, 01:15:00 PM »

Offline saltlover

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The Celts are probably a lottery team without Al, so hopefully he comes back at a reasonable figure.

All the reporting sounds pretty positive in that regard though.

They're not a contender with him at this point either.

Results are the same regardless.
If you think a lottery team and a second round playoff team with a puncher chance are the same I am not sure what to say.

There’s a lot of people who think that way, unfortunately.  Somehow the treadmill of mediocrity has shifted from being in the 7-11 range in your conference every year to not being a conference finals lock every year.

Re: Al Horford not exercising his player option
« Reply #122 on: June 18, 2019, 01:18:18 PM »

Offline angryguy77

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The Celts are probably a lottery team without Al, so hopefully he comes back at a reasonable figure.

All the reporting sounds pretty positive in that regard though.

They're not a contender with him at this point either.

Results are the same regardless.
If you think a lottery team and a second round playoff team with a puncher chance are the same I am not sure what to say.

I don't believe they have a punchers chance. That's an anomaly in the NBA.
It's legit contender or bust. I can't count the amount of teams I've watched go on several year run of being nothing but warm-ups for the contending teams. I've no interest in being the Atl Hawks of the East Coast.


 Yes, you need playoff experience to get to that level, so it wouldn't be all bad.

 However right here and now, we are going to be in basketball hell until we get some talent that is consistent and able to take over when needed.

We went from a team that was built to win a few titles if a few chips fell their way, to now being one that hopes 2 young guys take dramatic leaps in the next few years. This could happen I'll admit, but I won't be holding my breath.

I also believe we have a coach who's not very good, so that's a whole other albatross.
Still don't believe in Joe.

Re: Al Horford not exercising his player option
« Reply #123 on: June 18, 2019, 01:48:57 PM »

Offline droopdog7

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The Celts are probably a lottery team without Al, so hopefully he comes back at a reasonable figure.

All the reporting sounds pretty positive in that regard though.

They're not a contender with him at this point either.

Results are the same regardless.
If you think a lottery team and a second round playoff team with a puncher chance are the same I am not sure what to say.

I don't believe they have a punchers chance. That's an anomaly in the NBA.
It's legit contender or bust. I can't count the amount of teams I've watched go on several year run of being nothing but warm-ups for the contending teams. I've no interest in being the Atl Hawks of the East Coast.


 Yes, you need playoff experience to get to that level, so it wouldn't be all bad.

 However right here and now, we are going to be in basketball hell until we get some talent that is consistent and able to take over when needed.

We went from a team that was built to win a few titles if a few chips fell their way, to now being one that hopes 2 young guys take dramatic leaps in the next few years. This could happen I'll admit, but I won't be holding my breath.

I also believe we have a coach who's not very good, so that's a whole other albatross.
Hey, the raptors just won the title after being outside of the top 5 preseason.  Yes, they have a star but you just never know how things will shake out.

The rest of the league is in flux as well.  The warriors may be split up.  Kawhi might leave toronto.  Butler may leave philly. 

Seems to me you and others are obsessed with the process and think that is the best way to build a contender.  Have to be a little more thoughtful than that.  Yes, we have two young players that might be pretty good.  I'm higher on tatum personally but both have talent.  We also have an ex-all star who will be two years removed from a bad injury.  We have Al Horford (hopefully) who can still play at a high level.

My point is, this is not a bad team.  I think competing while tatum and brown develop is a good thing.  I also think this team will win more games than last year and be in a decent position to take fans on a good ride.

Re: Al Horford not exercising his player option
« Reply #124 on: June 18, 2019, 02:06:12 PM »

Offline RodyTur10

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I think this is more of a positive sign than a negative one but he will be an UFA as of June 30 so in that, he can sign anywhere.   He may well test the market or look for a team more likely to contend.  I would.  He can also wait to see what Kyrie and others do.

I don't see it as the end of the world if he leaves.  If we sign him at say $23, is that really the best possible way to spend that money?  Even if a good deal now, how about in 3 years?

We lost out on Anthony Davis.  That is the big blow.  I like Horford but not overly concerned either way now that it looks like we are going to lose Kyrie.  If Kyrie does re-sign, I would see it as more important to keep Al.  We would have no money to replace Al if we sign Kyrie so losing him would mean losing the salary slot.

Yeah, it pretty much is the best way to spend that money.  Most importantly, whether Al gets $18 million a year or $23 million a year, the Celtics probably have an identical roster for the next three years, because those extra dollars won’t matter for cap or tax purposes, even in year 3.

Under about $18 million, there are options where the C’s now have cap room more than the MLE, up to $27 million according to Bobby marks.  It’s not very hard to get up to a max player from $27 million.  But what max player is going to come here?  Do you risk losing Horford, because he decides to look elsewhere while you wait, and missing out on that player when he chooses a different team?  With Jaylen’s rookie deal ending, there won’t be max space to carry over to next season if you miss out this year.

So in that case, where you miss out on the max player, you get 2-3 players who make a combined total of $27 million.  This compares to a world in which you keep Al, resign one of Rozier and Morris, and use the MLE and BAE, also for near $27 million.

Unless you’re positive there’s a younger guy waiting for you to offer him a max deal, then you absolutely pay the money to keep Al, because there is no better way to spend it.

In the summer of '21, we currently only have the following players left on the roster (assuming we don't re-sign Rozier, Hayward or Yabusele):

Smart (13,8)
Williams (3,7)
Tatum (max extension expected: 30,5) - or a cap hold of: 24,7 (250% of his previous salary in 20/21?)
Brown (possibly max extension: 29,0)
Jackson dead cap (0,1)
Total: 77,1

121,8 (expected cap) minus 77,1 = 44,7 million left for rookie contracts and a free agent.

Lets assume we sign three rookies this year (approx 6,3 mil) and one next year (f.e. 2,4 mil) as the Memphis pick flips over, together that's: 8,7. Also all open roster spots (up to 12) count as minimum salary: 3x 1 mil = 3 million.

So if we substract that, we have (44,7 - 8,7 - 3) around 33 million left in cap space. The Memphis pick would convey in 2021, but who knows where that will end up.

For a 0-6 year vet we need (25%): 30,5
For a 7-9 year vet we need (25%): 36,5
For a 10+ year vet we need (25%): 42,6


We can probably forget about that 10+ year vet, but a max contract for a 7-9 year veteran free agent is in reach. Don't extend Tatum beforehand, give Brown less than a max salary, trade a rookie contract or draft pick.

I think it's possible to sign a max free agent in 2021 or am I miscalculating?

Possible free agents: McCollum, Oladipo, Beal, Antetokounmpo, Davis, Embiid or Gobert?



Re: Al Horford not exercising his player option
« Reply #125 on: June 18, 2019, 02:21:31 PM »

Offline RodyTur10

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The Celts are probably a lottery team without Al, so hopefully he comes back at a reasonable figure.

All the reporting sounds pretty positive in that regard though.

They're not a contender with him at this point either.

Results are the same regardless.
If you think a lottery team and a second round playoff team with a puncher chance are the same I am not sure what to say.

I don't believe they have a punchers chance. That's an anomaly in the NBA.
It's legit contender or bust. I can't count the amount of teams I've watched go on several year run of being nothing but warm-ups for the contending teams. I've no interest in being the Atl Hawks of the East Coast.


 Yes, you need playoff experience to get to that level, so it wouldn't be all bad.

 However right here and now, we are going to be in basketball hell until we get some talent that is consistent and able to take over when needed.

We went from a team that was built to win a few titles if a few chips fell their way, to now being one that hopes 2 young guys take dramatic leaps in the next few years. This could happen I'll admit, but I won't be holding my breath.

I also believe we have a coach who's not very good, so that's a whole other albatross.
Hey, the raptors just won the title after being outside of the top 5 preseason.  Yes, they have a star but you just never know how things will shake out.

The rest of the league is in flux as well.  The warriors may be split up.  Kawhi might leave toronto.  Butler may leave philly. 

Seems to me you and others are obsessed with the process and think that is the best way to build a contender.  Have to be a little more thoughtful than that.  Yes, we have two young players that might be pretty good.  I'm higher on tatum personally but both have talent.  We also have an ex-all star who will be two years removed from a bad injury.  We have Al Horford (hopefully) who can still play at a high level.

My point is, this is not a bad team.  I think competing while tatum and brown develop is a good thing. I also think this team will win more games than last year and be in a decent position to take fans on a good ride.

Not sure what you mean with that first sentence, but the Raptors have been at the top of the Eastern Conference for a number of years now. In fact the previous three years it was only LeBron who stopped them from going to the NBA Finals!

I doubt the Celtics would have beaten the Raptors in either 16/17 or 17/18. Last summer they traded for Leonard, who turned out to be pretty healthy. So you had a top team in the East adding a Superstar to their roster. That the Raptors won a Championship as a result of this is not a big surprise.

Hoping that a Celtics team that doesn't have a Superstar (not even an All Star at the moment) is going to do the same is giving yourself false hope. I'm not saying we're a bad team, but making the playoffs and winning one series is pretty much the ceiling of the team as it is.


Re: Al Horford not exercising his player option
« Reply #126 on: June 18, 2019, 02:44:59 PM »

Offline droopdog7

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The Celts are probably a lottery team without Al, so hopefully he comes back at a reasonable figure.

All the reporting sounds pretty positive in that regard though.

They're not a contender with him at this point either.

Results are the same regardless.
If you think a lottery team and a second round playoff team with a puncher chance are the same I am not sure what to say.

I don't believe they have a punchers chance. That's an anomaly in the NBA.
It's legit contender or bust. I can't count the amount of teams I've watched go on several year run of being nothing but warm-ups for the contending teams. I've no interest in being the Atl Hawks of the East Coast.


 Yes, you need playoff experience to get to that level, so it wouldn't be all bad.

 However right here and now, we are going to be in basketball hell until we get some talent that is consistent and able to take over when needed.

We went from a team that was built to win a few titles if a few chips fell their way, to now being one that hopes 2 young guys take dramatic leaps in the next few years. This could happen I'll admit, but I won't be holding my breath.

I also believe we have a coach who's not very good, so that's a whole other albatross.
Hey, the raptors just won the title after being outside of the top 5 preseason.  Yes, they have a star but you just never know how things will shake out.

The rest of the league is in flux as well.  The warriors may be split up.  Kawhi might leave toronto.  Butler may leave philly. 

Seems to me you and others are obsessed with the process and think that is the best way to build a contender.  Have to be a little more thoughtful than that.  Yes, we have two young players that might be pretty good.  I'm higher on tatum personally but both have talent.  We also have an ex-all star who will be two years removed from a bad injury.  We have Al Horford (hopefully) who can still play at a high level.

My point is, this is not a bad team.  I think competing while tatum and brown develop is a good thing. I also think this team will win more games than last year and be in a decent position to take fans on a good ride.

Not sure what you mean with that first sentence, but the Raptors have been at the top of the Eastern Conference for a number of years now. In fact the previous three years it was only LeBron who stopped them from going to the NBA Finals!

I doubt the Celtics would have beaten the Raptors in either 16/17 or 17/18. Last summer they traded for Leonard, who turned out to be pretty healthy. So you had a top team in the East adding a Superstar to their roster. That the Raptors won a Championship as a result of this is not a big surprise.

Hoping that a Celtics team that doesn't have a Superstar (not even an All Star at the moment) is going to do the same is giving yourself false hope. I'm not saying we're a bad team, but making the playoffs and winning one series is pretty much the ceiling of the team as it is.
Apparently I looked at an older odds maker that had the Raptors at 40-1, apparently before the Leonard trade.  At the start of the season they were at about 5, and almost always below the celtics.  Hindsight of course is 20-20 but nobody was betting their house on the raptors before the season. 

Re: Al Horford not exercising his player option
« Reply #127 on: June 18, 2019, 02:56:33 PM »

Offline RodyTur10

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The Celts are probably a lottery team without Al, so hopefully he comes back at a reasonable figure.

All the reporting sounds pretty positive in that regard though.

They're not a contender with him at this point either.

Results are the same regardless.
If you think a lottery team and a second round playoff team with a puncher chance are the same I am not sure what to say.

I don't believe they have a punchers chance. That's an anomaly in the NBA.
It's legit contender or bust. I can't count the amount of teams I've watched go on several year run of being nothing but warm-ups for the contending teams. I've no interest in being the Atl Hawks of the East Coast.


 Yes, you need playoff experience to get to that level, so it wouldn't be all bad.

 However right here and now, we are going to be in basketball hell until we get some talent that is consistent and able to take over when needed.

We went from a team that was built to win a few titles if a few chips fell their way, to now being one that hopes 2 young guys take dramatic leaps in the next few years. This could happen I'll admit, but I won't be holding my breath.

I also believe we have a coach who's not very good, so that's a whole other albatross.
Hey, the raptors just won the title after being outside of the top 5 preseason.  Yes, they have a star but you just never know how things will shake out.

The rest of the league is in flux as well.  The warriors may be split up.  Kawhi might leave toronto.  Butler may leave philly. 

Seems to me you and others are obsessed with the process and think that is the best way to build a contender.  Have to be a little more thoughtful than that.  Yes, we have two young players that might be pretty good.  I'm higher on tatum personally but both have talent.  We also have an ex-all star who will be two years removed from a bad injury.  We have Al Horford (hopefully) who can still play at a high level.

My point is, this is not a bad team.  I think competing while tatum and brown develop is a good thing. I also think this team will win more games than last year and be in a decent position to take fans on a good ride.

Not sure what you mean with that first sentence, but the Raptors have been at the top of the Eastern Conference for a number of years now. In fact the previous three years it was only LeBron who stopped them from going to the NBA Finals!

I doubt the Celtics would have beaten the Raptors in either 16/17 or 17/18. Last summer they traded for Leonard, who turned out to be pretty healthy. So you had a top team in the East adding a Superstar to their roster. That the Raptors won a Championship as a result of this is not a big surprise.

Hoping that a Celtics team that doesn't have a Superstar (not even an All Star at the moment) is going to do the same is giving yourself false hope. I'm not saying we're a bad team, but making the playoffs and winning one series is pretty much the ceiling of the team as it is.
Apparently I looked at an older odds maker that had the Raptors at 40-1, apparently before the Leonard trade.  At the start of the season they were at about 5, and almost always below the celtics.  Hindsight of course is 20-20 but nobody was betting their house on the raptors before the season.

All right betting odds. Well I'd have bet some on the Raptors then. If I remember correctly I estimated the chances at the start of the season something like this (so if Portland had won the title, that would have been a huge surprise in my book):

Golden State
Boston/Toronto
Houston/Milwaukee
OKC/San Antonio/Philadelphia/Denver
LA Lakers/Indiana/Portland/Washington

[dang], this reminds me again how disappointing this season really has been for us  :'(

Re: Al Horford not exercising his player option
« Reply #128 on: June 18, 2019, 03:10:28 PM »

Offline Kuberski33

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If Woj is saying there is motivation on both sides that means Celtics can’t give him an insulting offer. It has to be at least $75M over theee years.
If he re-signs, my guess is many here will be angry at either the amount or the number of years.  Al's got plenty of leverage, which means the C's may have to slightly overpay.

Re: Al Horford not exercising his player option
« Reply #129 on: June 18, 2019, 03:17:38 PM »

Offline Bobshot

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I wonder if they aren't secretly wishing Al would go elsewhere. He isn't going to win a championship here. And they will have very little  cap space if they sign him--even for $20 million per year. A   3 year contract  is a stretch for him at 33.  A sign and trade would be nice.

Hayward's contract is still the killer.

Re: Al Horford not exercising his player option
« Reply #130 on: June 18, 2019, 03:21:43 PM »

Offline Kuberski33

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I wonder if they aren't secretly wishing Al would go elsewhere. He isn't going to win a championship here. And they will have very little  cap space if they sign him--even for $20 million per year. A   3 year contract  is a stretch for him at 33.  A sign and trade would be nice.
Does it make any sense to go into rebuild mode carrying Hayward's contract, which is untradeable?  The move is to sign Al - if they can do it, which I still think is a an 'if' not a 'when'.

Re: Al Horford not exercising his player option
« Reply #131 on: June 18, 2019, 03:25:50 PM »

Offline angryguy77

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The Celts are probably a lottery team without Al, so hopefully he comes back at a reasonable figure.

All the reporting sounds pretty positive in that regard though.

They're not a contender with him at this point either.

Results are the same regardless.
If you think a lottery team and a second round playoff team with a puncher chance are the same I am not sure what to say.

I don't believe they have a punchers chance. That's an anomaly in the NBA.
It's legit contender or bust. I can't count the amount of teams I've watched go on several year run of being nothing but warm-ups for the contending teams. I've no interest in being the Atl Hawks of the East Coast.


 Yes, you need playoff experience to get to that level, so it wouldn't be all bad.

 However right here and now, we are going to be in basketball hell until we get some talent that is consistent and able to take over when needed.

We went from a team that was built to win a few titles if a few chips fell their way, to now being one that hopes 2 young guys take dramatic leaps in the next few years. This could happen I'll admit, but I won't be holding my breath.

I also believe we have a coach who's not very good, so that's a whole other albatross.
Hey, the raptors just won the title after being outside of the top 5 preseason.  Yes, they have a star but you just never know how things will shake out.

The rest of the league is in flux as well.  The warriors may be split up.  Kawhi might leave toronto.  Butler may leave philly. 

Seems to me you and others are obsessed with the process and think that is the best way to build a contender.  Have to be a little more thoughtful than that.  Yes, we have two young players that might be pretty good.  I'm higher on tatum personally but both have talent.  We also have an ex-all star who will be two years removed from a bad injury.  We have Al Horford (hopefully) who can still play at a high level.

My point is, this is not a bad team.  I think competing while tatum and brown develop is a good thing.  I also think this team will win more games than last year and be in a decent position to take fans on a good ride.

I just don't want to see the team in limbo. Watching a team be good, but just not good enough is excruciating in basketball given the length of the season. It's very hard to get jacked up for a playoff run when the chance of your team upsetting a higher seed and going all the way is minimal. It's not like the nfl where you have the "any given Sunday" thing.

Maybe this will be good for the young guys and they'll mature into a combo that can carry the team. I like Brown and Tatum, I'm just not sure if they'll be consistent enough to carry a team yet.

I can tell you one thing, I'm sick of seeing LA get every big FA just by virtue of geography. 
Still don't believe in Joe.

Re: Al Horford not exercising his player option
« Reply #132 on: June 18, 2019, 03:26:18 PM »

Offline Boise To Boston

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How about 4/$60m?  Probably exceeds what Horford could get if he played out the year and signed a 3-year deal next season.  And it saves Boston $15m in cap room.  Seems like a win/win to me

Re: Al Horford not exercising his player option
« Reply #133 on: June 18, 2019, 03:36:10 PM »

Offline BitterJim

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How about 4/$60m?  Probably exceeds what Horford could get if he played out the year and signed a 3-year deal next season.  And it saves Boston $15m in cap room.  Seems like a win/win to me

What? Baring a serious injuty, Horford would easily get 3/$30 next year. He'll be looking more like 3/$60 than 4/$60
I'm bitter.

Re: Al Horford not exercising his player option
« Reply #134 on: June 18, 2019, 03:58:43 PM »

Offline droopdog7

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How about 4/$60m?  Probably exceeds what Horford could get if he played out the year and signed a 3-year deal next season.  And it saves Boston $15m in cap room.  Seems like a win/win to me
Much much too low.  He would have been due 30 mil next season alone.